*******THIS THREAD CONTAINS SEXUAL CONTENT*****

I asked LL if she minded me starting another thread on sexual dysfunction.. Good old LL didn't mind ,so here i am and am going to be brave and post about some of my problems i have encountered because of my abuse/rape.
I didnt want to write this on the other thread because it was about talking about sex in therapy with our T's....Here i want to be able to talk about a manner of things that are a problem to many of us on a day to day basis.
I apologise to anyone now if they are offended by what I write in anyway.......it is not my intention to upset or offend, but to say what my problems are, in the hopes of people finding comfort in the fact that they are not alone.
If anyone writes anything that is deemed offensive or too close to the mark for anyone's liking......PLEASE SPEAK UP! so it can be removed or re-worded.......hopefully no one will mind doing that.
Right shall we just get on with this long awaited for thread!

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I have always had huge problems with sex because of the sexual abuse,that happened to me throughout my childhood.
I wrote on MLC's thread about wanting to disappear.....that to make myself unattractive to men ,as a teenager, I starved myself because I wanted to fade into the background away from the attention of men/boys...starving myself made sure that I had no breasts and along with cutting off my hair boy short and wearing jeans...I did succeed in making boys not look at me twice. That was fine by me!
Until i reached about 18yrs old and then i wanted to have a boy friend like every one else....of course i had never kissed a boy or has any sort of sexual encounter with one .All i knew was pain and humiliation.
The first boy i ever went out with on a date, was a typical teenage lad....he only had one thing on his mind.which was very unfortunate for me! I freaked when he came anywhere near me! Even a quick fumble left me in tears and shaking....experiencing flashbacks.well, he soon got bored and that was the end of that 2 week encounter.
Not long after i met a boy called christopher.He was really quiet and everyone thought he was a bit of a geek....christopher to me was a God! and he treated me like a Godess......no trying to get in my pants on the first date...nope none of that
He just used to hold my hand for weeks.He kissed me about 3 months into the relationship.no pressure, it just happened and it was just so wonderful......unfortunately though.as soon as things moved on to 3rd base as us English call it....things got no better for me, however lovely he was...I did overcome my fear of him touching me though and me touching him..I have to just add that, I as the core (cos i have DID) wasn't present during this,lucy was
up front all the time.
When I was 20 yrs old I was raped.It wasnt out in the big wide world, but in my own home....It put me back years.....it was then that i started seeing my lovely T.Thank goodness, i had her, talking me through everything.
My DID was diagnosed 3/4 yrs in from here and i met my now husband around the same time.Gosh sorry, this is so boring, but i think i need to give you a bit of background!
He was really good too about taking things slowly and with faiths help, we did get to 3rd base quite quickly and i was comfortable with that.
the first time that we had sexual intercourse was just horrendous.......actually i/we (meaning my older parts and me the core) were really up for it! unfortunately as soon as he climbed on top...that was that,my cp's just went into melt down.they had been put into a saferoom for safety, but they liked the closeness and loving feelings and came up front...of course they were frightened and confused and Sophie freaked.we were shaking and crying and fighting my husband off.he was terribly upset as you can well imagine....ughhhh. It was then that faith had him in and explained about the DID in more detail. the poor man was scared to touch me after this. but we took things slowly.
ok i'm going to fast forward or I'll be sending you all to sleep!I came up front, lucy took more of a back seat....i managed penetrative sex.but wasnt present..blah blah blah.
Today i still have huge problems, they are better than they were, i have to admit.
But still I either numb myself completely or dissociate during penetrative sex.......i've never achieved an orgasm at all having penetrative sex.I can only achieve an orgasm through clitoral stimulation and even that is a bit hit and miss.
I really have trouble with 'positions',as these trigger me and make me have a flashback...I need to be able to see my husband and see his face otherwise I start to freak and think that its my abusers all over again and also I cant feel like he is in a more dominant position.that i have to be able to 'get away' if I need to.well i hope people know what I mean. i'm not doing a very good job of explaining sorry.
There is no way that I could preform oral sex on my husband, I have tried and threw up immediately.Basically because I was forced to do it during the abuse.
Also both of us have to shower before and after sex too..because i cant stand the smell,that triggers me...epsecially the smell of semen.i cant cope with it.
My poor husband has to deal with me passing out,flashbacks and Bm's on a regular basis...i really dont know why he puts up with me. it cant be very pleasurable always worrying wether i am going to freak!!!! He only has to move in a certain way...make a noise or say something and thats it....end of our love making. Its not that i dont want to do it!!!!!. I actually enjoy it and that is what is so infuriating for me...I'd love to be able to let myself go and have wild passionate sex.swing from the chandelier and give my husband what any other normal woman could give him. It makes me feel so inadequate as a woman and a wife
we have found that i have problems about being penetrated by anything from penis's to vibrators, it makes no difference......whether i will ever get over it.....who knows, I hope so.
I have written on here before that we were helped or should i say I was helped by using tantric sex.My T suggested it as a way to get in touch with our emotions and get me to relax and fully connect...it works for me.....there is a lot of eye contact and breathing and loving touch...its really beautiful and helped me no end....using these techniques got me to relax enough to orgasm for the first time....it was an emotional moment for me and a huge turning point.
well i am going to leave it there, there is more that i want to write about, but i think that's enough for starters........if i have offended anyone.....please let me know and i will delete or re-write as appropriate.
Thanks for reading
draggers

Oh Dragger's you're so brave so im going to be brave too.

I've got to say your hubby sounds wonderful,

For me, i just don't enjoy sex, ive only had 1 sexual partner and that was my ex hubby. Sex with him was difficult coz he had a high sex drive and i just didnt care about it.Honestly, ive been single 7 years now and i can say i don't miss sex.

Also my ex didn help at all, he knew about the abuse and i still rememeber a lot of hurtful stuff he said to me when he was drunk (he had a drink problem) Even when he stopped drinking he would go on and on about sex. In fact all our fights were about sex. The only sexual thing i enjoyed was having an orgasam, i think because that was one thing that didnt happenen when i was abused. And i sure dont need a man to have an orgasm

Well thats brave enough for 1 day

Hev

Just wanted to say cheers to DF and to Heather63 for being so brave and honest. I don't have the moxie to post about my own stuff just yet, but I'm very impressed that others do. This is important stuff, and definitely something that can and should be talked about.

DF and Heather63, I'm so sorry that both of you have experienced so much bad stuff. I'm not a victim of SA, so I don't think I can fully understand the depth of the pain you've experienced. It must be so awful.

quote:

i've never achieved an orgasm at all having penetrative sex.I can only achieve an orgasm through clitoral stimulation and even that is a bit hit and miss.

Draggers, I just wanted to comment on this part to say that that is super, super common. It breaks my heart to hear that you feel inadequate as a woman and a wife, and I know you weren't talking just about this, but orgasming through intercourse alone is definitely not something that "any other normal woman" can just do, to my knowledge. Some can, sure, but as far as I understand it, the majority of women need clitoral stimulation in order to orgasm. It's totally normal.

I bet your husband would take SERIOUS exception to you calling yourself "inadequate." He sounds like a gem. And he's a lucky man to have you!

Oh dear dragonfly....I am lost for words....I am sooooooooooo sorry that you have had to deal with these life-altering experiences.....I truly can only have imaginings of how this has affected you.....my heart is heavy.....(((((((hug))))))

Hev.......thank you for being brave!!!!!! I truly appreciate your honesty.thank you.
you'd think that after all my troubles that i could take it or leave it too Hev!!!! But still i keep trying.
I am sorry that your Ex husband said some hurtful things to you and continuously went on and on about sex....when you are scared of it or dont want it, its the last thing you want to hear.

quote:

And i sure dont need a man to have an orgasm

Know what you mean! LOL........hugs you made me laugh.

Agent, .... thanks, thats the trouble, unless other people talk about their sex life and difficulties.no one knows if this stuff is common place... i didn't know that its common that women cant orgasm through intercourse I just thought that it was me well my T has said so, but sometimes i think she just says this stuff so i am not really down on myself.
thank you for saying that my husband is lucky to have me...that is so kind...i am lucky to have him.
hugs

sarah ,thank you for my hugs.hugs for you too.

I thought that i would be sitting here panicking by now about writing some of this, but actually its a bit of a doddle!!

Dragger's ive been thinking more about your post, i'm sorry you have flash backs and different trigger's ((((draggers))))) When i think back over my sex life i never had any flash backs or anything. The only thing i can remember that happened once during sex was I disappeared, what i mean by this is, i remember having sex and the next thing i rememeber is my ex callin my name over and over again. I'm really not sure what happened. It was really weird and strange

Hev

Oh i just thought of something else that i wanted to add (like i havent already said enough )
That at one stage i could only orgasm if my husband hurt me ( by gripping my wrist)......that was really early on in our relationship.I dont to this day, understand that!!! I mean as if i havent been hurt enough and i need to feel pain to climax!WTF is that about!!!!
Thank goodness thats not the case now.

oh sorry heather,we crossed posts.I totally understand the 'disappearing'.
Thank you for your sympathy in regards to the triggers and flashbacks.the flashbacks have got better as i am processing the trauma's.
I have to just say that I havent had sex for about 2 weeks ever since I have been going through all this stuff with sophie.... I worry how things will be, when I do decide that I can bare it again.

Draggers you are one courageous and honest cookie! Couldn’t read what you’d written and not at least say something to give you the heads up in reply - though I’m damned if I can find the guts in me to say very much at all about me personally! Have lots of questions for you though, specifically about the part being DID plays in all of what you described (more to try and get my head around it as I put myself in your place and try to imagine how it must be.) Do you mind questions about the DID aspects of it all? (Shan’t ask anything unless you say it’s ok.)

Wow with sex being so fraught for you I’ve got to admire your determination in persevering - how on earth do you keep yourself so open and willing when there’s such a kickback each time? I’m guessing you really want it, and therefore are going to go ahead regardless of the potential fallout? As opposed to doing it because you feel you have to, to please your H?

I have to say that what you’re describing doesn’t sound at all like it’s dysfunctional! I reckon the sexual closeness you’ve got with your H is a LONG way from dysfunctional (though I get why you’re using that word, obviously it’s not straightforward and ‘normal’ like you read about in the books or see on tv.)

By the way what’s tantric sex? From your description it sounds like you and H have a fantastically loving relationship - I can’t imagine going to all the trouble you are to have sex, with anyone who wasn’t totally trustworthy and there for you. I have to admit I could NEVER discuss my sexual wants and needs with a man (or anyone for that matter) as openly as you are able to with your H. But that’s more to do with my shame about the whole subject, and all sorts of icky feelings about putting these kinds of things into words. Like, so long as it’s just a fantasy in my head it’s ok, but to actually tell someone what I want, nah forget it never in a million years.

I think that’s what strikes me about your post - you don’t seem to have any ‘hang-ups’ about sex per se, (I love the description of swinging from the chandeliers!) it’s that you get overtaken by flashbacks and dissociation and body memories at crucial moments. I can understand your being concerned that your H would be anxious wondering whether you’re going to freak at any moment, but don’t you as well? I mean, knowing in advance that you are going to ‘flip’ doesn’t that scare you too, put you off the whole thing?

Lol Draggers I had to smile when I read your third post about its being two weeks since you last had sex - like that’s a really long time - because for some reason I just assumed it didn’t happen very often, but that sounds like you’re pretty into it on a regular basis. I think you are amazing! And I reckon that with your will and determination, and once Sophie is able to feel safe, you’ll be swinging from those chandeliers no problem!


Hev that is seriously horrible your ex-H being so hurtful to you about past abuse - and being so insensitive and callous as to keep pushing you about sex all the time. I can understand why he is ex! Your comment about sure not needing a man to have an orgasm, oh so true (I remember a book I read years ago where a woman was listing all the things that women didn’t need men for, and sex was one of those things, her comment being ‘huh we can do it better ourselves’).

I was one of the classic types who totally confused love and sex - always believed that if a man had sex with me that meant he loved me. Took me a LONG time to work out that wasn’t true - now I’ve figured that out, I can skip the sex part and work on the being loved bit separately. (Not that I’ve managed that yet either *sigh*).

Agent you know there even used to be talk way back (I’m talking 1960/70s here) of there being two distinct types of female orgasm, clitoral and vaginal, as if the latter was the ‘proper’ and ‘mature’ type that was the norm we were all supposed to achieve. Talk about being made to feel inferior and inadequate!

Oh BB that must be so painful for you, that your H gets mad at you. I think that would be SO difficult and make you feel really pressured and guilty and all sorts of things. All this talk about sex now has really made me stop and think - all sorts of stuff coming up from the back of my mind and I now reckon that with it being the ONE thing I have consistently never talked about with anyone (not even to myself) that as soon as I get back with a T I’m going to push myself to be open about it - on the basis that the thing I most don’t want to even think about let alone talk about, is the very thing I need to get out in the open. So BB maybe thinking about talking with your T about sex might actually be healing for you? At least, being able to start talking about it on this forum is a really big step forward - what do you think?

Draggers, just got to give you a massive hug for this thread ((((((((((( Draggers )))))))))))

LL

It's scarey to write this but everyone is being so brave..so it helps make it safer...I have much confusion surrounding sex...I desire so strongly to have it be a loving experience--much like Draggers description of tantric sex, and yet I seem to be only capable of orgasm when I am humiliated or degraded or I'm watching someone else being humiliated...this makes me feel like I am one sick individual. Did anyone here ever see the movie, "An American Crime"? In the movie a young teenage girl is kept in a basement and basicallly tortured by the entire town. Instead of me being appalled..(and a part of me was..) I felt myself having a sexual response in my genitalia to her being degraded!? wtf?!! Oh, I feel so sick and twisted...I don't understand why my body responds in this way...it makes me hate myself and want to never have sex...ugh...mlc

I feel like this thread has two distinctly different tones to it. Yes, it is an awful topic, but it feels very empowering at the same time.

From your story, dragonfly, I just get a sense of perseverance and strength. I’m afraid I don’t have that much to say. Maybe just that you’re doing great… I mean that you don’t need to force yourself to all of a sudden be able to have chandelier sex. It sounds like you are moving forward, taking small steps and doing what you need to do. I know that it’s basically impossible to do- but you don’t need to be so hard on yourself! You’re doing great.

I’ve been completely fascinated with tantric sex for awhile now. I’m so happy it sounds like it really helped you. I very much hope to someday be able to have loving sex.

And seriously, I don’t know any women who can orgasm through only intercourse. I can only have an orgasm during sex if the man gives me oral for a long time before, but otherwise it’s not going to happen!

Oh, and definitely agree on not needing a man to have an orgasm! Hehehe.

Dragonfly, there is nothing offensive or inappropriate in your story. It is all human stuff.
At first I wondered, that despite what you have suffered in your childhood you were able to have some relationships with boys/men and eventually meet your husband. I hope he really is a good and carying guy for you because you do deserve it.
I kind of envy you that you were able to achieve some closeness with a man, some intimacy. I feel like it is almost impossible to me.
Then I read how what happened to you in your childhood affected and still affects your sexual relationship with your husband. I hope you can heal your little ones inside you and eventually achieve greater enjoyment from sex. You deserve it.

I just want to clarify (just in case) that nobody said anything to hurt, it's just I had to take my post down- so just in case somebody noticed, please don't feel badly, it's no big deal...I did it because I needed to for myself. Sorry about that draggers, dear...it's too hard for me right now. I'll come back at some point, ok?

Love,

BB

I'm just going to write something quickly and will try to reply fully more later. I'm sat here under a duvet at 4 am ,feeling like death with a sore throat and hacking cough.
oh, i dont know where to start!
BB, thank you for responding and joining in on this thread, i know that you find the subject hard.
I am sorry that you have problems in the bedroom department too....it seems that there are plenty of us ,so you are not alone and hopefully now you will see that its not all your fault, you aren't 'selfish' and you certainly are not looking for attention!
I dont know how you can find the answer to your question without asking your T.....but i hope that reading this thread may give you some clues as to where the problem lies or where it came from,until you are brave enough to ask him.
(just read that you had to take your thread down BB, so to save you worry have deleted your quote which was here)
Thank you for that BB and being really honest.This is one area i really cant understand my self. but from the looks of other peoples responses it is going to be something that seems to be quite common.Out of everything that i have written here, that was the only thing that i worried about writing and being honest about, because it just seems so backward!There must be a psychological reason for it, why we needed that to feel 'turned on' or to climax......hmmmmm.
thank you again for your contribution ((BB))

can i just say, that i realise that everyone's words are really precious here....I'm not sure in my replying that i am going to be able to convey to you, how grateful i am and i know other people are going to be for replying.....thank you just really doesn't seem enough. Especially as i know how uncomfortable it can be to talk about these things and even more so to put it out there for everyone else to read.

MLC.thank you for your honesty.I hope now you are feeling a lot better about yourself and not feeling so alone.
People talk about being re-wired on here....i needed serious re-wiring over needing to experience pain to enjoy sex.......It took time MLC, to explore what i liked and what i dsidnt like .but to do that you have to have a man that is willing to spend some time doing that!!!!
We spent along time just with no sex and cuddling.........moved on to touch/massage...then added in kissing..but all the while having no form of sexual contact......it drove the pair of us mad for weeks! but that is what stopped my desire to be hurt.It was like i had to teach my brain /body a different way to feel..i was only feeling when i was being hurt before.oh i hope you understand what i mean.?!
One thng you are not is sick and twisted,i hope that you can see that now and you certainly are not alone! thank you MLC..hugs

Maclove...Thanks.... yes it is an awful subject and one that many of us really dont want to discuss. but it is the reality that many of us live in/with on a daily basis,especially if there has been SA in our pasts.
thanks for saying that i am doing great .....i think i have come (ha!) a long way along the road and i hope to active even better satisfaction and pleasure.....yeah you are right i am hard on my self.... but its because i love my husband and i sooooo want to be 'normal'. It is about baby steps ,just like everything else in my therapy/life.....the trouble with me i
s that i need to fix everything pronto!! I am sooo impatient!

quote:

And seriously, I don’t know any women who can orgasm through only intercourse

Thanks for that.....are you sure you are only 19 !LOL........I wonder if women make out like they can then, just because they dont want to admit that they cant? Like they think that
everyone does? cos every one i have spoken too says they can!!! thats why i obviously have a very warped picture about things. .thanks maclove and good luck on your date!!

Amazon......thank you for your encouragement and kind words.like all couples.we have our moments where things aren't brilliant!!!! and we really do need to sort out the whole physical comfort/hugging thing without sex being involved.i think we both need that.
yes my husband is caring....hes soo sweet that he buys presents at christmas for all of my CP's and puts them under the tree! .he knows that I am not the average sort of gal and tries so hard to be understanding.The times when he's not, I guess I really have to make allowances for.how many mean would put up with nearly having their eye poked out when ive freaked out......listen to me being sick or trying to bring me around when i have literally passed out and still come back and try again?????? not many hey!!!
He cried the first time i orgasmed.....literally cried!!! so did i...he so wants to please me , that I really do want to get better so that I can start to please him a bit more.all the focus seems to be on me at the moment and i would love to change that dynamic.
I am sorry that you feel like it is impossible for you to achieve the closeness that i have with a man. dont give up though Amazon....i think that you have to learn to be honest with your partner and start from scratch and really take things slowly...learn about your body and your reactions.and talk! without talking or at least placing a hand or what ever in a certain place or showing a man what you need and when.how are they ever going to know? it takes courage and I always thought that my husband would get discouraged and feel like he was failing.but it works both ways.he showed me some things too...It only takes one night...maybe even 10 minutes for the whole experience to change for the better.
thank you for your kind words and you contribution. I am most grateful. hugs.

LL.thanks..No , i don't mind about the DID questions....but I might have to answer you by PM if thats ok to one or two things. I would rather be given the choice to do that.. I don't want another system over load.but fire away.

quote:

how on earth do you keep yourself so open and willing when there’s such a kickback each time? I’m guessing you really want it, and therefore are going to go ahead regardless of the potential fallout? As opposed to doing it because you feel you have to, to please your H?

It doesn't happen every time we have sex that i have a flashback or problems.As long as we stick to what i am comfortable with......ie being able to see his face etc.i am fine........i only have problems if he does something different or mutters something in the heat of the moment or a movement triggers a flashback etc........slowly and overtime, I have learnt and so has he what triggers me..so we try to stay safe in what we know i'm ok with.
No , i dont want it all the time.....but i do enjoy it if things go to plan and there are no incidences and i can stay present or not numb myself etc.....i have done it to please my H on hundreds of occasions... penetrative sex for me is not pleasurable yet i still do it.
LL, i think that its really sad that you cant tell your husband what you need or like I dont think you need words..a hand in the right place and showing them is all that is needed.............i think it is such a shame that so many women suffer in silence and just lay back and think of their home country while all this is going on.when sex should be about pleasure for both parties.
faith said to me once when i was moaning about getting nothing out of it.that hows my H meant to know.men arent mind readers and she said.if they are gay they could pleasure another man with no problems! they have the same tackle!!!!!So the easiest and the quickest thing to do.rather than spend years putting up with zilch,is to show him .So show him i did!!!!!
Oh believe me when i say , i have shame LL !! shame of like it, shame of not liking it, shame of wanting it, shame of not wanting it and on and on the list goes. but sex is part of my marriage...i've had to try and put it aside to get to a place where i can even perform it!

quote:

I can understand your being concerned that your H would be anxious wondering whether you’re going to freak at any moment, but don’t you as well?

yes of course.......it scares the living daylights out if me!!! hence why we stick to safe stuff.... mutual masturbation (hope thats the right terminology, i can only think of the childish way of putting it!) is safe.....intercourse is definitely not.Anything could happen......its like playing with a grenade with the pin taken out!!! I could just switch to lucy and sometimes i do if i haven't already dissociated etc.But even she cant handle it very well...I'd rather have sex as my core self though..i need that closeness......when it goes right, i find it very healing and that is what drives me to keep trying and participating.
Two weeks isnt a long time then to go without any type of sex? ohhhhhh! and here i was feeling bad!!!! could someone enlighten me on the average amount of time then?!

oh tantric sex is about increasing your sexual connectedness and awareness to your partner and of your body.Its objective seems to be on more pleasure in the bedroom, rather than end results ie climax..but because you feel so connected through touch and ,breathing together and eye contact,orgasm is meant to be easier to reach and whole body orgasm can be achived.....dont ask me what that is.....i'm grateful for even a little one!!!!!
there are loads of web pages explaining what it is and some techniques..just use ones that you feel comfortable with.
Thanks LL.hugs for you too ((LL))

draggers

ps...sorry for all spelling i am knackered!!

Hello you guys, I've missed you! I know I promised I'd be away for ages but I am just giving myself a little break from my work and reading this thread I find I have SO much I'd like to say. So I hope you don't mind if I chip in for a little bit and then run away again.

It is really good to read about other people's experiences, thank you all for sharing so much. There's so much trust here.

I feel kinda lucky in that my sexual self hasn't been too badly 'messed with' in the ways others have experienced, and I'm really grateful for that. I feel just such sadness and hurt reading about what you each have been through and go through. I wish I could offer things to your healing, but maybe just sharing helps.

I want to reinforce a couple of things - one, what Agent and LL said about vaginal orgasms - yep, it's totally normal to have some trouble with this, and is more about physiology (i.e. where things are positioned!) than trauma. Having said that, feeling comfortable and relaxed and able to communicate and explore makes lots possible that wouldn't otherwise be possible, in my experience! (Not that I manage to feel comfortable and relaxed all the time - but more rather than less, these days).

I wanted to also write a little bit about this thing of feeling aroused through images and feelings of hurt and/or degradation. That's been part of my experience too, and is much less present for me now. I feel for you DF and MLC and others about how upsetting and confusing that can be to know about yourself. I think it was easier for me to come to terms with because I didn't have any SA background, it would feel more triggering I think if I did.

I do speculate that it did have something to do with the pains and hurts and power imbalances of my growing up, but I don't know for sure. From reading around it seems HEAPS of people have these kinds of fantasies and arousal responses. My guess is this: it's one of the ways that the brain processes trauma or even everyday hurt/emotional overload, and certain feelings about the self and others. If you think about it, sexual arousal and orgasm is a bit like crying - it lets you process and 'let out' feelings, and discharge the energy connected with those feelings. We have the idea that sex should only be about the really good feelings, but it's sort of cleverer and more flexible than that, I think - it gives you a chance to connect and process a whole HEAP of feelings. Ideally we can feel and process them in love and connection with another person, but if the circumstances are bad it can feel awful to be in touch with all that feeling. I actually often cry after orgasm. Sometimes that feels good, such a lovely release, but if there's bad stuff going on in my relationship it's terribly lonely.

I'm sort of getting off track.... What I was going to say is that that connection of arousal to pain/degrading stuff has lessened a lot for me as I've come to feel more gentle and loving towards myself, and as you say, Draggers, to learn different ways of connecting. But to do that I sort of had to just accept the way my head worked and not reject it - to accept whatever images came up for me and work 'with' them instead of fighting them. I am sure that belief systems (personal and moral and religious) have a lot to do with what feels okay for people on this. But I would also say that a fantasy is just a fantasy. It's imagination, and imagination is in itself a way of processing feelings, maybe even healing feelings. I think it's possible to use fantasy to keep yourself stuck in painful feelings, but I suspect that's more about the way you think about the fantasies, rather than what's in the fantasies themselves. For example, you could have a disturbing fantasy and then outside the fantasy hate and punish yourself for having it, which would keep you locked in that state of degrading yourself. Or you could have a disturbing fantasy and then kind of appreciate it as a way of learning about what's locked inside you, and as a creative response of processing difficult feelings - in other words, by just experiencing it, instead of forcing it away from you, you might be actually loving yourself and letting the self-hatred and degradation slowly surface and go.

Does that sound wacky? Does it sound upside-down? I don't know, it's just one point of view, and I feel like it's allowed me to feel comfortable in myself and move on to a freer place. I still sometimes have those images and responses surface, but it doesn't freak me out - and it doesn't tend to stay around either. I do notice it is when I am feeling out of sorts with myself - in a state of self-rejection.

I hope there's something here that's of use to someone.

Love you guys!

Jones