BB,

I am short on words right now, but just wanted to second what Seablue said. The struggle is there for a reason and if it was so easy to just "get over it" we all would just do that and move on. I'm sorry that you are having such a hard time.

I want to thank all of you for responding so generously to me. Your friendship means so much.

There is so much that I need to figure out about this...so I really, really appreciate more tha words can say all your help. Meybe, it will give me courage to try, talk to T about it, yet, I am very afraid of being misunderstood by him on this issue, since it taps directly into my sense of myself as "bad" and I am scared to have him verify that, even if he were to do it accidentally. Yet I am finding it very difficult to find the time to post. So I hope as I reply to all of you over the next few days, it can be in the context of an ongoing conversation and you will feel free to chime in with any thoughts that you may want to put in here...and to eachother as well, should it come up naturally, that would be wonderful.

SG- all your thoughts, so insightful and helpful, gentle and non-judging- thank you. Please only answer this if you feel comfortable doing so, but I was wondering by "rescue fantasy" do you mean the idea of a daydream (BB has weird passing fancy of T, riding up on a white horse, shaggy beard flowing, to save me from worse than... ) Or by fantasy, do you mean some kind of interior unthought out hope that just resides in you without much awareness of it, that something *like* that would happen on some level?

quote:

Abuse is horrible, no doubt about it. But so is a vacuum, for a child who is trying to learn who they are. In a vacuum we learn that our needs are not all that important, but of course they are still there, so it kind of makes sense that we'd long for the needs to be so much more obvious, so they would finally get met.

This makes perfect sense...yes! And it also makes sense that we would long for someone to see us and take the initiative in meeting the needs, because that is the only way that it would fully resonate inside that they "really* care. I deal with this all the time with my spouse. The old "I want you to read my mind" syndrome, that so many marriages suffer from. Yet, sometimes, it would mean so much, to just be seen without having to explain everything out so rationally, as if I was asking a small child to meet my needs. ick. I often wish that my T would initiate contact, however slight, for this same reason. Just to realize that I'm on his radar- for him to initiate contact on something other than to send a bill, would mean SO much to me. It's just not reality, I suppose.
I think your last paragraph makes perfect sense, SG, that is very insightful and helpful! ...but, it is sooooo hard for me to accept...to let go of my desire to be seen and cared about in an *initiative* way by this parent figure...if that is what you meant by rescue fantasy...I just am not there yet. Here I feel like I am being asked to deny myself, and take up my cross...and accept my basic invisibility. And not be depressed by it, but let life still have some meaning. (Not asked by you, but just by the reality of the setup, to clarify) It's really hard, isn't it? I mean, really. I just hope that after doing that, there is some light and peace on the other side. I suspect for myself, this is why I cling to some kind of real bad lack of self-worth. I'm just waiting for someone to step in and "do it for me" first, maybe. It's really not reality, is it? How to get to the point, where I can really care about myself enough to ask for what I need...I guess that is a tough one for me. I can see all of this very rationally, understand it, at times. But the rest of times I have no comprehension of this stuff at all, it's just a lot of words. Thank you so much for great help towards finding the elusive understanding, SG. It means so much.

Jones, Jones...your posts always leave me with such a sense of friendship, and care. I'm in mourning for your lost avatar, it was so Jonesy-yet I'm really liking your new one, too...it's nifty! I'm sure I'll get used to the change.
You said:

quote:

I get this idea because if you DID consider yourself worthy just the way you are, then it would be okay to seek out care and attention *whether you were hurting or whether you were just feeling that you need to grow*. People need and want love, care, attention and (very often) growth. That's the way that it is.

Yeah, I can see that. There is something here that I'm shutting down understnading on, too, which is probably a sign that I should look at it and actually try to understand it. It's hard to see that I could ever deserve to to this therapy thing, just for myself, my own growth, whatever. I'm able to do it because I can see the ways in which my dysfuntion is really dragging my family down, and I desperately do not want to do to my "chicks" the same as was done to me...yet I feel powerless to stop it on my own steam. That is where help *has* to come in. But it IS helping me, too, and what's more, I am getting a sense of being cared about from it, from time to time, and that feels very deeply wrong, I guess. Wow. That's the first time I ever saw that so clearly. Oh well, the realizaton will be sure to have disappeared by tomorrow.

quote:

It hurts a great deal to believe that the only worthy thing about you is your pain, and to even then question whether the pain is legitimate. It hurts like hell. And it puts you in a position where you can't function to the best of your abilities. So while you are hurting, you are also hurting because you know you want to give your family and your life more but you just can't seem to.

I just want to say thanks for hearing me so well, here. This is exactly how it is. It's kind of like existing in that vacuum SG was talking about I guess. The funny thing is, I don't really know what it feels like, except really occassionally, to exist without the vacuum, so it doesn't even hurt most of the time. It's the realization of the reality of it that brings pain. when I have the odd day where I wake up feeling like a normal person who wants to be alive, that really hurts, because I get to see what I'm living without most of the time. And I wish there was a magic button to push that would make me just normal, happy and alive, as my T would say. Guess it's gonna take me a bit longer than pushing a magic button though.

I also get what you are saying about traumatic things having their effect in different ways on different people. (and I'm sorry if the little kid in what you described may have been you )The worst part of a trauma like that is having no one to talk to about it. The thing is, that for me, it gets confusing. Because I tend to think of my situation in terms of what you are describng here. Yet, my sister's P has told her that our childhood, as described by my sister of course, was living hell and significantly traumatic. These are strong words. And I can't really wrap my mind around how they can be true, since we weren't beaten, (at least not regularly) and stuff like that. To me, that kind of description belongs to severe abuse. So it just gets really confusing, because my T is trying to get me to accept that it wasn't all hunky-dorey for us kids, and yet, all I can think is that is me being a drama queen or going into histrionics about my fairly undramatic in terms of abuse, past. If that makes sense. And it certainly doesn't help matters that I get a strng sense of his boredom with the details every time I've tried to talk about it. Yet, he says, per last session, that he DOES believe I have to talk about it, over and over again. ugh. But that just brings me back into the "having a card to play" mentality again. Oh, it's confusing...I can feel my mind just shutting down, now, I'd better stop writing since I think I'm getting really confusing.
Your post hasn't confused me, by the way, it is just I'm thinking too much, and I had a short. (fzzzt-fzzzt-fzzzt...BB's feathers are singed)

You're not bossy, Lefty. I mean Jones! You are wise and friendly. I being to understand a tiny bit better from your post, why my T is always saying I need care and it is ok to need it. Now how to accept that it really is ok, inside of myself?

Love,
Beebee

Sorry this is turning into the mother of all posts, everybody.

Monte, thank you for liking my honesty. I like yours, too, very much! and thank you for your thoughtful, and very helpful reply to me.
But, if I am...well, honest, I guess I have always had the capacity to be honest about anything I see in myself as negative. That feels safe. The more neagative, dark and creepy, the better! It's like some kind of sick, preemtive strike.
I really like that you are able to honour your "little thing" or inner child by being honest about the past. It just gets really confusing for me, as you know if you have read this far! Like you, I have some indisputable things that point to a rather severe form of neglect...like even very basic needs quite often not getting met. But it gets harder to see when you know the background of my specific family. There was some love there, I guess that's why it confuses. It would make more sense to be treated the way we were in a family that had no love at all. And I guess the care was very sporadic. Every once in awhile mom would rally, and give me a bath, you know? and because she did, that means I was deeply loved. It's weird. My mom sent me a birthday card this year. It's like the biggest deal on the planet. Of course I feel immensely guilty for not calling her to thank her, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it since the card had already thanked me so gratefully for having no needs at all from her, and calling her up would have taken some of her time away... But I can't feel "that's not love." I really can't. Even though I can see so clearly at times that it isn't. Maybe I'm afraid of the hurt. Maybe I'm afraid that it really does hurt. I don't know.

Monte said:
"That aside, like you also I cling to my 'damage' because it is a commodity, it is something to trade for love and care. The more $$$ I have the more bargaining power I have."

You have a way of putting things that really takes the edge off, Monte. I love you for it. this is so funny, so true, and so sad. Thanks for putting it so succinctly into words. And thanks for being you- you are really neat.

BB

Smiley, thanks for your post. It's really good to hear what you have to say. I like that you pointed out, we have to learn to take care of oursleves with our T, and that it is just really hard to do.

quote:

why can't I just forget about it and move on? Hmmm, I think maybe because everytime something triggers us it brings back those feelings we had as a child. Our brains just automatically pick up on it and we are transported back there. We try to cover it, deny it, and walk away from it. Then we think that now we deserve someone to love and take care of us because of it. The truth is we have to do that ourselves now, (with our T), to make ourselves feel worthy and deserving. It is a tough thing, and believe me I'm still working on that big time.

I guess the key is to be working on it, though, and I really honor you for doing this work. Keep at it Smiley, and I will too...and we all love you, here, too.

((((Smiley))))

BB

AG, your post is so hugely helpful to me, that I have to keep re-reading it cause I want to internalize it.

quote:

Do you know what this sounds like to me? Someone who was constantly told and/or treated like her very reasonable requests to get her needs met were somehow wildly inappropriate demands for special treatment that NO decent person would ask for.

Wow- I really have to think about this, AG, but I think you might be right. which would explain why it would be so hard to see that they were possibly, in the wrong. Because if my very basic perceptions wer completely invalidated (and I say if, still) then I can see how it would lead to the setup I now have, where having needs, being sad, needing my T, etc. is just being a drama queen. I think a lot of the problem with seeing it for me, comes from a problem with language. do you find that launguage has a tendency to convey things in automatically exaggerated terms at times, for lack of good "language" to put the explanation into. It like I hear "child neglect" and think that means locked in a basement for months with nothing to eat or drink. Anything less than that does not mean neglect. Maybe it's a language problem. But maybe that's just intellectualizing it. Maybe it is just a basic problem of denial on my part.

quote:

When we’re children our sense of reality and normality are strongly shaped by our parents, so if we’re told we’re lucky then we MUST be lucky no matter how miserable we feel. I wonder if that’s not true for you. There’s a struggle between your experience of life as being difficult to navigate versus but you have it so good how could you be struggling?

Yeah, I think it maybe does come from having reality shaped by my parents...wow. I never really thought of it like that, but I can see the truth in that. If they thought I was not really worth noticing or nurturing than it follows that I would have that perception of myself into adulthood.

quote:

When I hear you calling yourself a liar and saying nothing bad ever happened to you, I hear the voice of a parent that has been skillfully integrated in an attempt to get yourself to behave in a way that would keep you on their (non-existant) good side.

I may as well quote your entire post, in fact, because all of it really instructive and hits home, too. what you wrote above is really scary to me. I need to look at it. I'm starting to see some things here, that I think my T is trying to get me to see too. Thank you so much.
I do want to grow and live, even if it has to hurt.

quote:

If it isn’t too scary I want you to try an experiment. Pick three stories from your childhood, one you think was good, one bad and one that you think is no big deal and post them and ask for people’s reactions to what happened to you. Their judgement won’t be clouded with your feelings of shame (that only clouds their own stories ). I think you’ll be shocked at what you hear, but I think it would be good for you.

Yikes, AG! I was thinking when I first read your challenge, oh, yeah, good idea, I can do that. Now it doesn't seem so simple, faced with the reality. But I would like to try. Just give me a day or two...
You are the best, thank you so much for the wise help and input. I'm sure my T would thank you, too, if he could, for saving him some time!

BB

STRM, Songbird (welcome!) little starfish, Echo, LL, Seablue and Kashley- and I hope I didn't miss anybody...your posts are all really valuable to me, and you made really good points. I want to respond, but I can't think straight anymore...there was a lot I wanted to say to you all, but I'm also afraid I risk putting the forum on a power outage if I keep posting at this point...so I'll be back.

Hugs,

Beebee

gosh, all of this is so much my story, too. yes, the SUBTLETY of abuse and neglect, all mixed up and diffused with being a 'doctor's daughter'! (as my mom was so enamored with, yuk!) with nice clothes and piano lessons...SURELY i had a good childhood.

man, have i struggled with this one, bb, and others.

one thing i just learned, is that it is often not until a person's FOURTH DECADE that they sit back and look at their childhood and connect it more solidly to how they have ALWAYS lived their lives. y'no, when you are a kid, it is your normal, yes, a few things seem different, but abuse?? neglect?? or just weird family...and me being too needy and sensitive was MY conclusion. then the college years have a rush of their own, then career, then marriage, then babies....everything is like riding a wave of 'doing', and it is not until you finally catch your breathe in life that you (i) examine these things that have always made you (i) feel 'different'. for me, the first i ever had the term profound, no less, emotional and psychological abuse and neglect...later to find traces of sexual abuse and physical abuse....was on my first day of therapty....my reaction was shock. WOW! me?? who would have thought that?? i was in disbelief, but also in massive RELIEF, as it was the FIRST GLIMPSE OF HOPE THAT MAYBE I WASN'T THE PROBLEM!!!

i still wrestle massively with this, as, so many 'incidents' are hardly anything to hang your hat on, but collectively??? and with no spoken or felt real love, no physical contact, hugs, putdowns and sarcasm being the only form of spoken 'affection'...i dunno, the ELUSIVE and SUBTLE nature, my T says, make this type of abuse INSIDIOUS!!

bb, i know, i always think i need to shake this off, and get over it and appreciate what i do have now, and i feel like a constant FAILURE and looking at my wonderful present just makes me feel worse for being so stupid and weak that i can't fully appreciate it. i feel massive guilt about that.

i am sure i offer little help, but i am right there with you and feel i ought to rise above this stuff, as many people had it MUCH WORSE.

i dunno, i guess i cling to 'i can't help others if i can't function myself'...

great thread, bb, glad you brought it up, and great posts EVERYONE!! jill

two, i guess i am always trying to quantify and validate and justify my abuse/neglect to have a reason why i FEEL SOOOOOOOOOOO BAD. funny, with T3, we are just touching the surface on the details, as she said something to the effect that the symptoms i have somewhat speak for themselves...and were certainly NOT just something i ate!! kinda helped. so what i am saying is, bb, recognize your symptoms had an origin outside as you were a normal baby and child with normal needs, and had they been met, you wouldn't be having these symptoms...((bb)) jill

quote:

Originally posted by jill:
and with no spoken or felt real love, no physical contact, hugs, putdowns and sarcasm being the only form of spoken 'affection'...

Absolutely. This is abuse as far as I'm concerned, despite how conscious or unconscious it was to our care givers. In the end, whatever factors went in to our parents ability, inability and/or willingness to provide what we needed to become healthy, integrated people is almost beside the point. The point is the result.

If you're a child and you're reaching out for a hug or some other kind of contact from your mom or dad and you don't get it ever...in my opinion, you might as well have been left on the side of the road.

Russ

"Two-bee or not two-bee"! ROTFLMAO!!! You are so smart and funny.

Thank YOU dear BB for posting about this. I don't believe I've ever told anyone about this stuff, and to do so would have been very scary, and so I am more grateful than I can say that you brought this up. It is something that has been such a part of "me" as far back as I can remember that I'm not even sure I would have thought to bring it up! But the more I read this thread, and the more I go back through my own experience, the more I see how integral it really is to my own healing. I really love that we both (and so many others here) don't feel alone in this anymore! And that we can make sense of why we probably feel this way, so instead of being something that isolates us and keeps us from healing, it can be something that pushes us toward healing instead.

Just a side note before I continue...we are on "vacation" right now (and vacations are very difficult for me...perhaps the subject of a future thread...why can't I relax and have fun?) so I haven't had the time to read through everyone elses responses...so if it seems like I'm oblivious to something someone else might have already said, that is why. Later I'll sneak back and get caught up.

quote:

So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*

It is perfectly okay that you asked what I mean by rescue fantasy. FWIW, I've never actually called them "rescue fantasies" to myself, I just made that label up in my post as a shorthand way to refer to them. And I chose that label because the focus of them is on being cared about, or rescued. The quote above (from your initial post) is what made me think about them. After re-reading it, and your response to my first post, now I'm not totally sure we are talking about the same thing, exactly...or maybe we are, but I have just taken it a bit farther in a literal sense, with these fantasies. Ultimately I think they are at least related. So I will explain a bit further. And if it turns out I am talking about something else, well, then let me know and maybe I will start a different thread.

You gave the example of your T on a white horse . And that IS the general idea of my fantasies. The fantasies themselves are quite detailed, when I have them. The first part is usually rather dark, where I am in some kind of peril. I considered sharing one when I first posted, but was way too afraid that I could trigger others here who have actually experienced things like this. And please understand that I feel terrible saying that. And obviously from all the pain shared on this forum, actually being in situations like this does NOT ensure being rescued in any way, shape, or form. So I want to very strongly emphasize that the "thrill" of the fantasies themselves is NOT in being hurt in some way - in fact I always "skim" or "fast-forward" through that part of the "fantasy" - but the real "payoff", where I get the good feelings, is from the second part, when someone (come to think of it, always a man...I can't think of any time my rescuer has been a woman) sees what is happening, and rescues me. That is the part that is more detailed, where I hang out, where I linger and bask.

Now when I have thought about it, I have thought I must be really sick to have fantasies like this. But after reading what you and others wrote here, I connected them to the consequences of having my needs neglected, and realized that the purpose of them is actually to create FOR MYSELF the feeling of being cared for (forgive me if this is too graphic of a comparison, but I would think of it as "emotional masturbation"). Being told in so many ways, direct and indirect, that our very basic needs are not important, they are a bother, they make us somehow "bad", does not make those needs go away, it just drives them underground. It makes total sense that they will pop out in some other way...and there are many ways in which that can happen...and I think these rescue fantasies I have is one of the ways I found to "meet" my own needs for comfort and care and love. My regular needs were not "enough", so I created situations in my mind where something really bad would happen to me, so I WOULD deserve, and then receive, that comfort and care and being "seen" that I was SO hungry and starving for. It is warped, to be sure, and it doesn't really "work" in the long run...but in the context of having emotional needs neglected, it is understandable. And now that I'm aware of it I can work on changing it. So now instead of thinking "I must be really sick", I am thinking "I must have been really neglected" to have fantasies like this.

Now I am "neglecting" my little girls, who are chomping at the bit to go swimming so I will sign off for now. I hope this helps BeeBee...thanks again for being so brave as to put this out there. It really did take bravery to do that because you were (are) so convinced that it makes you "bad". I hope you see now, that isn't the case at ALL. You are good, you have needs, and you (and the rest of us) ALREADY deserve to have them met. Really, really. And I hope all the feedback you are getting will help you see where you need and very much DESERVE healing of your own, and that you will be able to "go there" in your therapy.

Many hugs,
SG

BeeBee there is one more thing I want to add, a feeling or idea that I've been struggling to express, because I have a feeling it is very important. Whether it actually is or not I don't know. But I will try. It is the idea that the consequences of neglect and abuse are twofold. The first consequences are the injuries themselves, which are terrible in their own right. But the second and more insidious consequence is that these injuries are perfectly self-reinforcing. The overall message of the injuries, whether told to us directly or indirectly, is that we do not deserve anything better, and this is what I think causes us to feel that we are "bad" in looking for healing. It keeps us trapped, going in circles, when something in us just KNOWS we are in a trap, but we can't seem to find a way out. And I would like to say for myself as well as everyone else here, this is a LIE. Do not believe it for one minute! Keep ignoring it and keep stepping out, in faith if you have to. Do the emotional equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la-la-la". This forum helps immensely in getting us to believe something different, but in those alone times when we are tempted to believe the lie anyway, which is SO strong, maybe ignoring this message is another way to keep from getting pulled back into that circular trap.

SG

russ, my thoughts exactly. the side of the road. one thing i heard today in therapy is that often the older child is the one to 'get it worse' ( my schizophrenic sister ) and the younger one develops massive (i added massive, not the t talking) coping strategies to get through life .. for me, the disassociation, the denial, the escapes, the numbing out/not feeling, the 'good girl' backbreaking effort, etc.

so, she thought i was CLASSIC. y'no, i sometimes feared being permanently shipped away, boarding school or something, and i know those kids have their issues, but surely there is a 'house mom' that provides a little hug-time and nurturance...anyway, don't like to drift too far into what might have been, IF I HAD BEEN PUT ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD....but i do wonder. and russ, too, i don't think we have really met, but i so enjoy having a man on the board, and empathize with your situation and your t.

strummergirl, your quote "Being told in so many ways, direct and indirect, that our very basic needs are not important, they are a bother, they make us somehow "bad", does not make those needs go away, it just drives them underground." yes, so much, and while that may seem so basic to so many of y'all, i have to pause on this moment..the word 'a bother' was the key for me, i was 'a bother' and 'a burden'...and no, they went underground for awhile, i kept 'it' at bay, but wow, they dont go away, do they...good simple point i need to EAT UP AND ACCEPT.


GREAT THREAD, bb, i have printed it out as so many points are so good, and i am, with my t, slowly crafting a letter to my parents, as i sense i can't carry the weight of this wall of silence much longer...it is too heavy, and too depleting, and with her help (and i think she is sooooo capable!! yippee!) i am going to use MANY POINTS from this thread to tell them what it was like to be a child in that house, and how deeply it has affected me all my life. this thread puts so much of this subtle, twisted stuff into real words...thanks for being brave and starting it!! jill

woo- first off I can't quite figure out all the bravery accolades I seem to be getting. Forme, this is just basic to my setup, I didn't really create it, and while I feel bad about being this way, yet I have a hard time taking personal responsibility for it. which makes me feel like I must be *(really* bad. yeah, it's an endless trap.

But when I read this:

quote:

You are a wonderful person with experiences that have made you uncertain about how to ask for and get what is deservedly yours, so of course you can't just 'grow up and get over it' until you learn what it is to be heard and understood.

I thought, gee, Starfish...are you my T? Thansk you so much for kind words. It's hard for me to accept them, but then, I figure if you can say them out there, then I ought to be able to take them in, hey? Thanks sweetie.

And LL...wow..I really relate...I think I am getting slowly to the point where I can allow myself to feel emotional pain. It's a bit scary when it happens, and I am immediately tempted to squash it with self-reproaches of being a drama queen, but there are times when the pain feels real.

I'm still dealing very much with the terrible shame involved in experinecing pain that is genuine as a *relief* though.

quote:

It’s taken me years to get to the point where I could even acknowledge that what I am feeling is pain, and not just superficial attention seeking self pity.

I am sorry for this, LL. The bad thing about it is that the thing we probably need the most is a little bit of mercy, a bit of pity, even- yet, we do not allow it for ourselves very easily now, do we? (((((LL))))))) It's truly a hellish bind. There may be an easier way out of it than you or I will suspect, though. That is just my sense...that it is much easier to exit this bind than we may think, and when the time comes for us to exit it, we will wonder why it took us so long to do something so simple? Just a little suspicion there.

quote:

SG puts it really well when she talks of no longer having to ‘earn’ love - that’s exactly how it feels, to me anyway, that love isn’t something that’s free, that’s a given, that can be taken for granted, we’ve learned along the way that we have to ‘deserve’ it, have to ‘earn’ it - a kind of trade off that for some obscure reason always seems to work in the other’s favour.

Again, this is it...why is love something that has to be earned? and then I wonder, do I do the same to those around me...and the circle of guilt begins again. I just don't want to do that to others. I really don't. But I probably do, in ways I don't even realize most of the time. Like, well, if you love me than I'll love you. My problem is that the only thing that makes any sense to me is the kind of sainthood as practived by someone like Therese of Lisiex (sp?) yet, I very simply do not have the gace to be liek that, so it gets into a huge internal philosopical and thoelogical debate about why God gives more grace to some and so on, and in the end I am basicall, not quite sure why I am even alive... Sorry about that, I know it's dark stuff, I just don't know quite, how to get rid of it.

Jill, I appreciate your thoughts, and Russ too...it is clear that you have been through similar stuff, that could lead to this kind of internal setup.

Echo, I love what your therapist said to you- that rocks, and I'm so glad you are still smiling from it!

Kashley, I'm a bit nervous that this was too much for you, so I would encourage you not to read it if it is upsetting to you right now...you are not so far along in therapy, and perhaps it's just a bit too much to take on right now...that is no wrong, Kashley...take your time, don't look too deeply too wuickly, or you could become dismayed...and let your T guide you.

Seablue, I am sorry to hear, that your husband is encouraging you to just "move on." That is very painful to deal with, for sure. The hard work you are doing deserves to be seen and appreciated for what it is, not negated. I hope you can find words to tell him, perhaps, of what it's all about for you. I know that would be hard.
STRM- thank you for kind words...because I know what you are enduring, it means that much more. Thank you so mcuh for your response here. I continue to be amazed at the level of generosity and maturity you show in the face of what you are dealing with. ((((STRM))))

And SG...thank you, for your kind words, but that joke just fell right into my lap! I couldn't not say it. I'm really glad that the thread here is proving to be a helpful one, yet I'm sorry you are dealing with so much of the same junk I am it seems. I hope you will be able to relax and enjoy some of your vactaion...I know how that is, too, it can feel like stuff is just eating away at you the whole time, somewhere, underneath the surface...and you can be left feeling even more guilt for not enjoying yourself. I hope you can find ways to find a bit of peace and enjoyment.
SG, I have to be honest and say, I don't really have fantasies like this...I may have at one time, I don't really remember what my fantasies used to entail, I know I had a lot of them. These years I am just trying to get throught the days, not much energy or thought for fantasy. Yet, I would say I have an interior, non-thought out fantasy that replays constantly that is very much like the one you describe. I don't think about it , but it is definitely there...like I used to wonder why, I would hope I would get really sick, end up in hospital, and have someone who really loved me come and visit...stuff liek that. Hm, now that I think about it, maybe I really do have the same type of fantasy, I just never really acknowledged....wow. I tend to push thoughts like that away, refuse to acknowledge them, I guess. Yet I have a constant, unanshamed fantasy of sitting on the couch with my T, kind of both slouched down side-by-side just chatting about our days, and general stuff. Or that he would take me for a walk on the beach with him, ask me to come along. goofy stuff like that. (One of my treasured pieces of knowledge about my T is that he likes to walk on the beach) Thanks for all the insight, SG, you're giving me so much to ponder, I have to re-read...I am sorry that this is disjointed and not very coherent or thoughtful a reply, I find I am in a state tonight, of just missing my T terribly, terribly, more even than usual...letting myself feel it after reading and writing on this thread... yet wondering if any of the awful emotional pain I 'm feeling is even "real." why does therapy have to be so confusing?

Beebee...

Hello BB and everyone,

thanks for so much realness and honesty here, it's hard for me to take it all in at the moment. There is such a world in each sentence and I am having trouble processing everything in the same spirit. I am very slow.

Jill,

quote:

i always think i need to shake this off, and get over it and appreciate what i do have now, and i feel like a constant FAILURE and looking at my wonderful present just makes me feel worse for being so stupid and weak that i can't fully appreciate it. i feel massive guilt about that... as many people had it MUCH WORSE.

I so relate to this! And it really is this terrible double bind that SG is describing that only serves to silence me again and again and even do my mum's job for her by attacking myself. It even catches me here. Yikes. But I swear, however slow and cowardly and twisted and stupid I feel I am, I WILL NOT STOP until I've gotten to the bottom of this or I'm 6 feet under!!!

So thanks for all you lovely, caring, sharing, shining people out there helping so much!

Talking about journey, I'm off for a week to the countryside. Will I enjoy myself???....

love
SB