may be triggery for some...

I've been thinking a lot lately about something weird that I am having a really hard time putting into words, or understanding at all. I thought maybe I would try to do it here, this will be the first time I really try to put this problem into words, and it feels almost impossible. Here goes. So I deal all the time with the feeling that *there is nothing wrong with me.* which, very oddly, gives me a strange vague sense of disappointment/fear. I really do not think, most of the time, that I am *really* depressed or that I have had a difficult childhood, or have a difficult marriage, or any of the rest of it. I have a deeply-rooted belief that it is all good, and everything in my experience seems to point to and validate this belief, that I am basically, a really lucky person who has it great. But T says no. So I try all the time to see, why? Can I see it his way...I MUST see it his way. I try and try. And I deep down do not believe that I need to be in therapy at all. But I can't get my life together, and there are concrete problems I deal with that scream loudly: *BB- get therapy!* So I struggle with this all the time. I can't even believe that what I am dealing with here is what they seem to typically call "denial." But weirdly, I want to believe I am in denial, and that I really *was* neglected, maybe abused, whatever-because then and only then I would be justified in seeing my T, and my SD, and getting their *care.* And because I *hope* I am in denial, and that I am really depressed, really in denial, really struggling because of the past like T says, that means I really am not. That it's all just an evil ploy on my part. Crazy making stuff. Because I want attention and care because of it, that makes none of the crap T is trying to get me to see even true, or something like that, idk. It just all feels so overblown to me, like I expect waaaaay to much out of life and that in fact I have always had it quite good.

So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*

So, all of this hugely distracts me from the reality of what my T is trying to get me to look at, which is that, the past was far from what it should have been, and that I need to accept that reality. But the thing is, how can I be in denial-?- In fact, I cling to my hurt, and my pain, and I don't want to let it go, because it is the ONLY thing I have that makes me feel like someone could/should love me, or have tender feelings or care or sympathy for me. And I have felt this way for as long as I can remember. BB, the drama queen. So, I would much rather suffer, than be healed and not feel justified in looking for/feeling this type of care. This is really shameful for me. Why do I embrace the darkness? Because of this problem. How can I let myself be an ordinary person who functions without this terrible burden of pain? Why would I do or think *anything* in order to feel cared about? Why would I allow my life to be destroyed, just to feel a tiny spark of tenderness from my T, or some other authority figure? (I'm not saying that therapy is destroying my life, yet, I feel I *would* allow my life to be destroyed, even if that was in the balance) This is a very dark place for me. I don't care about ANYTHING when I am in this place except getting a spark of care. What is it about my *pain* that I don't want to let go of? It's like it defines me. I am (in my own mind) the person whose parents never loved her. And I want to believe this...and hang onto this...why? What is wrong with me? Or not wrong with me? Oh, it just makes me feel like I am ...creepy.Yet, I would never think that about anybody else who is experiencing this...I would be able to see that they are wounded and hurting. But not me. I am not that one, no, I am just *not strong enough.*

So I wonder, does this have more to do with the fact that my parents were kind of I don't know, just weird, or is it just me, being...a drama queen? Boy do I need the truth, here. It is hard for me to figure out...I need some honest answers about what abuse/neglect entails. I don't really know. I can always see both sides of it, and why they did things the way they did. For the record they were not abusive, nor were they particularly protective...and they were also weirdly over-protective. It is a strange, confusing situation for me...I don't have anything to put my finger on, and say aha, now there was abuse. Yet, I can say that I have felt brain-washed, or psychologically manipulated by my mom yeah, weirdly, too. And why do I want to know that, if it's true, anyways? Because then I will have a card to play, then I will have something to present to the world at large (as represented by my T) and say "there, see...I suffered all of this, so I deserve some recognition for that, and some sympathy and love." It's just irritating, and I hate myself for it. Why can't I let it go? I don't want to dismay or trigger, but my experience of my past is just "grow up, get over it, so what?" How can I beging to see that what seems like "great expectations" and huge idealism on my part, is possibly, potentially, perhaps...just a normal amount of love, as normally given in normal families?

BB

Hi BB,

Wow, this is amazingly raw honesty, BB. Thank you for sharing this, you might not think it comes across clearly but it really did. I know you have been working to speak about this in other posts, but I don't think I really got what you were saying until just now (sorry I'm a little slow! ).

quote:

So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care.

I've had thoughts like this all my life. Actually I would call them "rescue fantasies" for lack of a better term. They are many and varied. And when I got older I thought wow, I'm really weird for having "fantasies" like that.

But now I think I'm starting to see the underlying reason for them. The title you chose for this thread is perfect, I think that's exactly where the hunger for attention starts, is in neglect. And neglect is its own brand of crazy-making abuse for exactly this reason:

quote:

It is a strange, confusing situation for me...I don't have anything to put my finger on, and say aha, now there was abuse.

Exactly. How do you point to something that wasn't there? Abuse is horrible, no doubt about it. But so is a vacuum, for a child who is trying to learn who they are. In a vacuum we learn that our needs are not all that important, but of course they are still there, so it kind of makes sense that we'd long for the needs to be so much more obvious, so they would finally get met.

quote:

Because then I will have a card to play, then I will have something to present to the world at large (as represented by my T) and say "there, see...I suffered all of this, so I deserve some recognition for that, and some sympathy and love."

I think why we are in therapy, dear BB, is to heal to the point where we no longer believe that we must have a "card to play" in order to "earn" love. But the therapy itself is not a card we are playing. This is the faulty message that we learned in childhood, trying to lead us astray one more time. I think the real healing will come when we learn (in therapy) that we can reach out and ask for what we need, and receive it...and when we learn that enough times, then the pull toward "rescue fantasies" will fade away, because we will no longer believe that we need them. What do you think?

Hugs to you BB,
SG

Dear BB,

This post touches me a lot because I identify with so much of it. I've felt so very similar to what you are describing here. I'm sorry that you are so caught in this seemingly intractable bind.

I think what's unsaid in this post is this message - "I am not worthy of love, care or attention the way that I am." That seems to be the accepted fact in this whole configuration (accepted by the self-judge, not by me or your T or your SD or others). I get this idea because if you DID consider yourself worthy just the way you are, then it would be okay to seek out care and attention *whether you were hurting or whether you were just feeling that you need to grow*. People need and want love, care, attention and (very often) growth. That's the way that it is.

But it seems like the only way you can excuse seeking out care and attention - the only way you can excuse yourself for being yourself and being a human - is if you are badly hurt.
I want to show you something I saw a little while ago while looking around: http://www.vancouvercounsellingservices.com/
This is Shrinklady's in-person counselling page. ALL of the therapists on this page have therapy themselves because it enriches their lives.

Well, you are allowed to do the same. Having said that, I get that resources are scarce, and maybe "personal growth" "shouldn't" be that high on the agenda when a family has other stuff to attend to.

But it is high on the agenda, because frankly, you ARE hurting. It hurts a great deal to believe that the only worthy thing about you is your pain, and to even then question whether the pain is legitimate. It hurts like hell. And it puts you in a position where you can't function to the best of your abilities. So while you are hurting, you are also hurting because you know you want to give your family and your life more but you just can't seem to. (See how you seeking out care is actually an act for the greater good, not selfish?)

So okay, here you are in this situation where you believe you and all your good stuff are not worthy of care. Is this the fault of a terrible, abusive, neglectful background?

It might be. It might also be the function of a few things coming together in the wrong way at the wrong time. I was really interested to read some research a while ago which found that ambidextrous and left-handed soldiers, especially those with ambidextrous or left-hand parents, were much more likely to suffer PTSD. That was a real revelation for me, as a lefty with lefty parents. I don't have PTSD, but I realised that the basic organic components of my brain make me a bit more sensitive to traumatic situations. And in my life I happen to have encountered some more or less traumatic situations. So this means that I might have been more affected by some of these events than some other people - but it doesn't change the fact that I still need to deal with the significance and impact of the events on me.

There are probably all kinds of brain things researchers DON'T know about yet which play into how things affect us, and all kinds of not-necessarily-abusive life circumstances which play into it too. For example: two kids see an accident on the way home from school. One goes home to her grandma, who is able to talk it through with her and she processes the trauma. The other kid goes home but her mum happens to be away on a trip that week, and her dad's not so good at talking about this stuff. She ends up carrying this around as a trauma where the other kid didn't - and it makes her extra sensitive to all the other stuff, big and little, that happens that school year. Some of these add to the new trauma pile, now that the pile has started. Shall we make the poor little kid a lefty too?

My point with all of this is actually not to tell you that you've been badly hurt by insignificant stuff. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to say that you can have permission to be *as hurt as you are*, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you are saying you were brought up by monsters, or whatever. I'm kinda hoping that that permission, if you can take it, might give you the freedom to look again at the stuff your T is saying - that things were far from what they should have been.

As for that tiny spark of care - you are desperate for it because you need it. And I reckon you need it from particular places because you need it from someone who can actually hear your pain. It's okay, BB. It's not wrong.

I hope you don't mind me being a bit bossy with all my opinions here, Beebee - any of them or all of them could be wrong. In any case, I'm sending a hug for you in this state, and I hope the road leads you to a lighter place soon.

Monte,

quote:

Beebee!!! I love it SG...it looks cute and it suits BB.

I agree! It is adorable, just like her. And I wish I could take the credit for the new moniker...but that goes to Jones.

What do you say, Blackbird...may we christen thee "Beebee"?

SG

Hi BB - I think I understand what you have said here. That need for love and understanding, caring and worth was for the most part taken away from us as children. We all need and want that in our lives. I know, I am saying it here and it makes my stomach churn just because I never feel worthy enough. I think it's because that was what I was taught by the adults in my life. How else could all of those bad things happen? I think I remember everything but there are moments when I'm not sure. I too sit back and say it wasn't that bad, it was my fault, I deserved it. It is what we came up with, I think, because why else would our needs not be met? I don't know. Just a thought.
The other thing about just grow up and get over it? I say that all the time. It's done, it's over, why can't I just forget about it and move on? Hmmm, I think maybe because everytime something triggers us it brings back those feelings we had as a child. Our brains just automatically pick up on it and we are transported back there. We try to cover it, deny it, and walk away from it. Then we think that now we deserve someone to love and take care of us because of it. The truth is we have to do that ourselves now, (with our T), to make ourselves feel worthy and deserving. It is a tough thing, and believe me I'm still working on that big time.
Thanks for being so honest and just know that we all love you here!

BB
I have a LOT to say but I was up last night with a tooth ache from a root canal (on the mend, got antibiotics from the doctor) and its difficult to think. But I wanted to let you know that I read this and my heart goes out to you. I think that you're being way too harsh with yourself and that they're are actually good developmental reasons for how you're feeling. I'll be back tomorrow but in the meantime please know that you're infinitely precious and deserving of anything you need to learn to live a full life. If this wasn't about you but about someone else you would see this so much more clearly.

AG

BB,

I'm at a loss for anything useful to say right now, but I wanted to say that I so appreciate your honesty and willingness to put yourself out there with this post. I am so sorry for your pain, because it is clear that you are in pain.

Hi BB,

I don't think you are a drama queen at all!!! The way you are describing your pain and confusion is very honest and straight! I have nothing to add to what the others have already said and with AG promising a return she's bound to know the right thing to say.

I just thought you might like this book by Alice Miller "The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self", in which she talks about the neglect in 'normal' families. It was an eye opener to me. http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gi...id=1279101163&sr=1-1

An thanks BB, your post and the responses are such an encouragement to persevere with being honest!

SB

Hmmm...two-Bee or not two-Bee, that is the question... (sorry I couldn't resist.)

I'm going to respond to each one of you in order...there is sooooo much I neeeeed to say and get clarified about this. I'm still scared that my T won't understand it if I bring it to him. This whole problem seems to be kind of the crux of the matter for me, since the only time I ever cry, is when I fully accept how wounded I really am inside, and most of the time this problem of believing that I am just an attention-seeking drama-queen, keeps me from being able to face the reality of what I am dealing with...perhaps. Maybe. thank you for allowing me to be honest.

So I will be back later tonight, with responses and questions after everyone is asleep in my house...!

Love to all,

BeeBee

quote:

Because I want attention and care because of it, that makes none of the crap T is trying to get me to see even true, or something like that, idk. It just all feels so overblown to me, like I expect waaaaay to much out of life and that in fact I have always had it quite good.

BB,
Do you know what this sounds like to me? Someone who was constantly told and/or treated like her very reasonable requests to get her needs met were somehow wildly inappropriate demands for special treatment that NO decent person would ask for. In situations of neglect and/or abuse, often what were basic needs that should have been met without a child even having to ask, were treated with condemnation, rejection or punishment because the caretaker was ONLY concerned about their needs or was incapable of seeing the child as a separate person. Many neglectful or abusive parents actually spend a lot of time telling their kids how good they have it. When we’re children our sense of reality and normality are strongly shaped by our parents, so if we’re told we’re lucky then we MUST be lucky no matter how miserable we feel. I wonder if that’s not true for you. There’s a struggle between your experience of life as being difficult to navigate versus but you have it so good how could you be struggling?

quote:

So, ultimately, I guess what it boils down to, is that I would be willing to do *anything* or have suffered *anything* just to feel a sense of being cared about. There is like, *nothing* I wouldn't do, or be willing to undergo and endure, or have endured, just to feel my T's care. I don't mean that I would literally run out and do something horrible, but that is the sense of it I hold inside, that I want things to have3 been horrible so that I deserve this care. And all of this makes me feel terribly, terribly guilty, and unjustified to be in therapy, like I am a liar, nothing bad ever really happened to me, I just had a normal past with mormal amounts of screwups in it, and everything is really actually quite fine and I am *just looking for attention.*

This again sounds like your very human, legitimate needs for care, love, understanding and acceptance fighting with an ingrained sense of shame for wanting to get them met or even having them in the first place. When we are little, these needs are literally a matter of life and death and we will DO ANYTHING to get them met. Including contorting ourself in any kind of person we need to be to not lose our caregivers. But if you were shamed or punished or treated badly for having these needs, it’s not like you can realize, wait these are normal healthy needs there’s nothing wrong with me for having them. No, you will tell yourself that there must be something wrong with you. That to actually want something for yourself is shameful and wrong and nothing will justify it. When I hear you calling yourself a liar and saying nothing bad ever happened to you, I hear the voice of a parent that has been skillfully integrated in an attempt to get yourself to behave in a way that would keep you on their (non-existant) good side.

quote:

So, all of this hugely distracts me from the reality of what my T is trying to get me to look at, which is that, the past was far from what it should have been, and that I need to accept that reality.

Please remember what was at stake. If it wasn’t you, then it was your parents, and that was way too threatening to allow yourself to know. So it HAD to be your fault, that was the only way for you to be safe. You’re fighting that in order to really be able to look at what happened and see it for what it was.

quote:

Why can't I let it go? I don't want to dismay or trigger, but my experience of my past is just "grow up, get over it, so what?" How can I beging to see that what seems like "great expectations" and huge idealism on my part, is possibly, potentially, perhaps...just a normal amount of love, as normally given in normal families?

BB, I so hear “grow up, get over it, so what?” in the voice of my mother. Do you know how I hear that now “stop having needs and emotions that I might have to stop and deal with even if that is supposed to be what I’m doing?” Your feelings and needs and emotions, even your pain, are yours, and you are worthwhile and deserve to be listened to, to be heard, and to have your needs met.

If it isn’t too scary I want you to try an experiment. Pick three stories from your childhood, one you think was good, one bad and one that you think is no big deal and post them and ask for people’s reactions to what happened to you. Their judgement won’t be clouded with your feelings of shame (that only clouds their own stories ). I think you’ll be shocked at what you hear, but I think it would be good for you.

AG

BB

Everybody has spoken so eloquently that I feel I have little to add that would help, except to say you are deserving of as much love and care as anybody and everybody dear BB. Their is no heirarchy of deserving people, if there were I have a feeling that you would put yourself near the bottom... but your needs deserve to be out there with everybody else's needs. You are a wonderful person with experiences that have made you uncertain about how to ask for and get what is deservedly yours, so of course you can't just 'grow up and get over it' until you learn what it is to be heard and understood.

((((((((BB))))))))))

starfish

Hi there BB sorry it’s taken me so long to reply, I’ve been thinking about your post since you first put it up and now I think I have my ideas in some sort of order, hope so anyway.

BB that whole issue of having to have something ‘wrong’ with you in order to warrant getting care and attention and understanding - is central to my set up too. According to my judge, it’s not ok to just want smiles and warmth and liking and understanding simply because I want them - the only grounds on which that is permissible is if there’s something *seriously* wrong ie that would be considered by other people as deserving of sympathy (ha and even then, only to other people) such as an accident, a death or something 100% morally in the wrong, like rape. Moreover, I don’t actually deserve the sympathy, it’s only the goodness and caring of others that permits it (meaning, I don’t actually have any kind of emotional right to expect sympathy and understanding, but must be abjectly grateful for the smallest kind word that is offered).

I find myself, maybe a bit like you, sometimes wishing there really had been something bad happen to me in the past, just so I could feel justified in the pain and anger and bewilderment and needs that swamp me all the time - usually though I discount and dismiss those feelings and needs as selfish, childish, and usually, indicative of something wrong with me, some kind of emotional abnormality that makes me unacceptable to the world.

And also maybe a bit like you, I have this incredible need for permission - for someone to openly say - but what did happen (or more to the point, what DIDN’T happen) was really bad, you have every right to feel bad you’re not making it up it’s not your fault.

quote:

So, I would much rather suffer, than be healed and not feel justified in looking for/feeling this type of care.

The way you describe needing to hold onto the pain - it strikes me that you are trapped in believing that healing involves getting rid of the pain. That somehow wanting to heal means turning your back on your pain, pushing and striving to feel better. That’s how it’s been for me - for decades I bought into the belief that there was something wrong with me for wanting to feel how bad I knew I felt, wanting to cry, trying to find all sorts of opportunities just to feel the luxury of tears (from as far back as a little girl, making up fantasies wherein bad things happened to me, just so I could get to cry for myself) and all these years hearing the judge (and other people too!) label it self pity, not serious, trivial selfish childish etc etc.

It’s taken me years to get to the point where I could even acknowledge that what I am feeling is pain, and not just superficial attention seeking self pity.
.
And it’s finally dawned on me that healing would come not from trying to get rid of that pain, but that going into the pain IS the healing. And the only way I can go into that pain, those feelings, is by having someone there for me, someone I can trust to care about and understand my feelings, to whom my feelings matter. Funny how in retrospect I realize that’s what I’ve been looking for from people all my life, and never getting it. But that’s what I believe a therapist can give. And it sounds like your T is giving you that too, but maybe you’re trapped in believing that he could only care about you so long as you are suffering? That it’s not ok to get his care for any other reason?

quote:

What is it about my *pain* that I don't want to let go of? It's like it defines me.

Well BB I’d go so far as to say that it does define you, in the sense that that’s the core you, those bad feelings all hidden away controlled dismissed, that’s where your true sense of self as good and ok is stuffed away too - getting rid of that pain without owning it first is tantamount to getting rid of yourself. Does that make sense?

As for needing to know that something or someone in your past was abusive, it’s more than just needing to have a card to play (which image I very much relate to!), it’s important to make connections as well. But I don’t think it’s possible to do that rationally - I think the feelings themselves tell the truth of the past. I guess the issue is, being able to take your own feelings seriously enough to realize that you don’t need to prove to anyone, least of all yourself, that you actually deserve sympathy and care and understanding regardless of how ‘much’ or how ‘little’ your suffering is in comparison to others. (Though it sure helps to have some yardsticks by which to measure our parents’ behaviour!)

SG puts it really well when she talks of no longer having to ‘earn’ love - that’s exactly how it feels, to me anyway, that love isn’t something that’s free, that’s a given, that can be taken for granted, we’ve learned along the way that we have to ‘deserve’ it, have to ‘earn’ it - a kind of trade off that for some obscure reason always seems to work in the other’s favour.

BB I hope you do get the courage to talk to your T about this, it seems so central to everything you’re struggling with. Maybe you could even read your post to him?

Big hugs to you anyway, and thank you for being so honest in your post.

LL

I didn't want to read and not respond, but I only have a second...

I'm so glad you posted this, Blackbird. I have felt this way many times, and had a similar conversation with my P about it. I think I said, "I don't really need to be here. There's nothing wrong with me." I just need to get over it, stop whining, stop thinking so much... ("Stop it!!") He very nicely replied that I do need therapy, but without it sounding like, "You ARE really messed up!" It was more of a "You deserve to be here. I'm glad you're here." Still makes me smile to think of it...

You deserve therapy, too, Blackbird.

I'm also so glad you posted this, BB. I relate to this so much that it's scary - as in, I'm scared to acknowledge those "darker" parts of my thoughts and feelings (or lack thereof in most cases). I push them away and write myself off as being certifiably nuts for thinking those kinds of things, and yet I hardly find myself worthy of therapy to put the screws back into place. Maybe I'd feel differently if I knew the screws were out of place for a good reason.

Oh, BB, it seems like I can feel everything behind every word you say. It's so amazing...your honesty here. Massive hugs. Here's to having faith that it won't always be like this.

BB,
I think it was very brave of you to post this. And I am betting these are very common feelings.

I wrestle a lot with thoughts of being dramatic about my childhood - maybe it wasn't so bad, it is really self-indulgent to spend this much time and money on myself, I was loved on some level as a child, I was taken care of physically, so what exactly is your problem, seablue? Get over it and move on. And it doesn't help that my H has actually told me that I need to put it all in the past and move on.

I know that I could do that and carry on with life, living on the surface and faking my way through, but that isn't living. My 'stuff' would disrupt my life and come out sideways everyday. And it is because there was a problem in my childhood (lots of them actually). I think it's hard to see past our defenses because it's the only childhood we have had, so on some level we accepted that it was normal or worse, what we deserved.

We all deserve to heal. And we wouldn't be struggling now if things were really OK then.