Starfish -

I'm sorry to hear about what was obviously an awful ordeal for you, but thank you so much for your input. I think it's just going to take a lot of time and a lot of supportive people to help me realize what I am and am not responsible for. I still feel very far from defining where the boundaries should be, rather than where they are right now.

My mother doesn't really interact with anyone. It seems hard to believe when I write it out, but it's really true. So it makes me feel even worse when I withdraw from her, because I'm do so, knowing that there's no one there for her. I just don't know what to do. I mean, I really can't blame her for being depressed about her life, her future, because if I were in her situation, I know I would be too. This is such an exhausting situation.

Kashley, I feel for you here. Starfish and Jones are right in what they said about your mom...you do not owe her your life, Kashley. It sounds like enough has been sucked out already. Maybe you are not ready to hear that, and if so I apologize. I have been through this in a rather extreme way. I relate to you saying "I am her person." I finally left my mom far behind and havn't really looked back, but the fallout was terrible. Honestly, I think she now forgets that I am her daughter and I wnet through some agonizing years. Decisions still remain impossible-the decision that I was not supposed to live my life- except in the context of what made my mother happy and comfortable- was made for me for long years- in what I am realizing now, a very profound way. And the guilt at leaving a depressed person who has no other means of support, a parent at that- is terrible to live with. I think I block that out. But she is not your resonsibility- nor do you have the resources to provide what she needs. If you back off (not to the extent I did, probably, but was neccessary in my situation) you may discover your mom will start to search out alternative means of support. But you cannot do that for her, though the temptation to encourage her may be great. I navigated this problem withoput a P or T and made big mistakes that left me quite empty and made some terrible life-changing decisions..so I am glad that you have T to help you navigate this very tricky place.

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It's one side or another. Mostly her side. That's why I have such a difficult time thinking and/or talking negatively about her. It confuses and frustrates me so much that I hate thinking about it, because I don't know what the truth is. I am so exasperated with this whole situation. The more I think about it, the more I just don't know.

I deal with this same problem too, Kashley, it is a place of complete helplessness and confusion. I still deal with. I think for me it boils down to, I was never supposed to have any feelings or needs or desires of my own, unless they corresponded with what she wanted/needed. So I learned very early to have the desires that she had. To be a carbon copy of mom. To stifle whatever came up that might have interfered with her equilibrium. So that pattern persists now. It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish. I used to think that I was attacking her basic goodness and integrity in order to feel good about myself whenever I dared to defend my desires or needs or emotions. If they conflicted with hers in anyway, no matter how slight, I was evil for having those. And I believed that wholeheartedly. She was God to me. Now I begin to think- to allow myself to think- it may have been the other way around. But I did run away from what became an impossible situation to deal with, and now I deal daily with the fallout from that. So talk to the T and talk to the T. That is all I can offer.

hugs, Kashley...and- to thine own self be true.

BB

I forgot to mention, of course this is my experience of the problem and it may or may not be the same for you...but it seems to me like these problems often play out in similar ways...

Hi Guys,
I don't have much time but there was a story they handed out at the training for the Crisis line to address our responsibility towards others and I tracked it down online. I think it's really applicable and might help to read. You can find it here: The Bridge

AG

kashley Thank you for your response - I think it's hard when we have had a bad experience ourselves,not to cloud our judgement on that for others, so I am glad I didn't for you. And it sounds like your mom is quite dependent and reliant on you -and that's tough. So you are right

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I think it's just going to take a lot of time and a lot of supportive people to help me realize what I am and am not responsible for

that's just what you need and it will never probably feel comfortable. You might always carry some regret, but hopefully the guilt and sense of responsibility will fade in time even though she is your mom. You can care about her without being responsible for her and there is a difference. BB rightly said

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It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish

and that is hard because we then feel as if we are doing wrong as a daughter etc. So BB is right, keep talking to your T and to others that have had similar experiences with their parents and have come out the other side.

starfish

First of all, I just want to say that I am repeatedly shocked at the amount of support you all have offered me. If I'm being completely honest, I don't feel like I deserve it - having all of you support me in the negative feelings I have toward my mother feels like an ultimate betrayal. I mean, I technically know that I can't be totally unfounded in my feelings if I'm not being second-guessed on every corner, and I value each and every one of your responses SO much, but it's still tough to get past such an automatic kind of response.

I spoke to my mother on the phone today, and it played out pretty much exactly how I thought it would. She acted like everything was fine, so I was definitely not going to bring up our email arguments. There was no way that it would do any good, and frankly, I don't have any more energy to fight with her again. I was pretty much petrified to call her, but I really needed to ask her a question about my insurance. Admittedly, I could have emailed, but if I did that and wasn't at all bubbly (like I typically am) then she would think I was still angry, and then she would get angry at me all over again for still being mad. What a mess. It feels like an indirect apology whenever I am the first one to reinitiate contact..

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Originally posted by blackbird:
It feels like a betrayal to speak poorly of your mom, or worse, like an outright lie that is selfish. I used to think that I was attacking her basic goodness and integrity in order to feel good about myself whenever I dared to defend my desires or needs or emotions. If they conflicted with hers in anyway, no matter how slight, I was evil for having those.

Yes - this is something that I'm slowly starting to realize. Right now, it seems like more of a faint possibility (VERY faint), but it's there. Thank you for sharing your experience, BB. I tend to agree that problems like these to play out similarly. I don't think it would ever get quite to the degree that it did for you, BB (which is heartbreaking to hear about - I'm sorry that it's been such an awful struggle for you), it definitely wouldn't be pretty. But I truly can't even really speculate at what would happen, because the more I learn, the more I realize that I've never stood up for what I feel toward my mother if it ever differed from what she perceived.

AG -

Thank you for posting that link. I was surprised at how the story resonated with me. It actually scared me more than anything, because I know I need to let go of the rope, so-to-speak, but I'm too afraid to find out what would happen were I to do so that I don't know if I ever will be able to.

Starfish -

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You can care about her without being responsible for her and there is a difference.

This really struck me, Starfish, because until now, I never realized just how blurred that line is. Actually, I think I usually operate on the understanding that there IS no line at all. Thank you for such valuable insight.

Oh Kashley - I’ve been following this thread but didn’t really know what to say up until now, but your issues with your mother resonate a lot with me so thought I’d put a reply in.

I particularly relate to having to be a particular way with my mother in order to basically give her what she (tacitly) demands (and conversely never expect to get for me). She is very good at being the helpless no-one is there for me victim and it’s VERY hard to take any kind of stand that might hurt her in some way. Whatever I do or say that isn’t giving her constant reinforcement and validation I experience as utterly selfish (and her responses tend to confirm that). She is so good at presenting herself as a loving caring nice I only want what’s best for my daughter mother that it’s really hard for me to stand back and realize that actually she’s a manipulative selfish self obsessed user.

I’m stuck between incredible rage and intense longing and pain in my dealings with her and as I haven’t even started to deal with my relationship with her, I kind of just put it on the back burner and avoid thinking too much about it at this point - but as she lives in another country it only impinges on me when we have email exchanges, which are not that often.

I’m so sorry you are in such a bind here as it’s pretty obvious she is very much a presence in your life. I wonder if you were able to let yourself feel angry about her (not necessarily with her directly) whether that might not help you deal with some of the mass of conflicting feelings she causes in you? Just a thought, as the whole set up with my mother is such that though I recognize I’m really angry at her, that (totally justified) anger gets squashed by everything else and I reckon the day I can truly feel that anger is when I’ll be able to free myself to care about her without getting stuck in having to meet her demands. (And maybe free myself of continuing to need from her things she never has and never will give me!)

Hope you are doing ok today :hug:

LL

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She is very good at being the helpless no-one is there for me victim and it’s VERY hard to take any kind of stand that might hurt her in some way

Oh gosh - absolutely agree. Everything has always been so much worse for my mum that for anybody else and yet if I dare tell her that she'll get really miffed and not talk or be 'off' with me for days. So I say usually what she wants to haer to keep the peace. My T started challenging me on this years ago and it slowly has dawned on me what had been going on with my mum. I very slowly have learned to take more control - for me that was not feeling obliged to tell her everything all the time, to slowly loosen the tie that seemed to exist between us. Her tie that is, her control over me. It was difficult at first, she didn't like it, but things are a bit easier now. I suppose that bit is easier for you LL with your mum in another country, but sounds very difficult in other ways. Being stuck between incredible rage and intense longing and pain is awful - I'm sorry that's there for you.

kashley, yes it is an automatic response and we are SO good at those - groan but well done for voicing it, I think that's the first step towards change.

starfish

LL -

Thank you for sharing your experiences - I do resonate a lot with what you are saying, too. I guess I have been ok today...I'm half-heartedly trying to stay in touch with how my mother made me feel even though she's acting like everything is perfectly fine now. I've learned over the years that when she goes back to acting fine, she's just waiting for me to apologize, which I'm not going to do. But it makes me angry, and anger has always been an off-limits kind of feeling. I'm struggling against the huge part of me that has gotten so good at stuffing everything away...I'm forcing myself to write in my journal every day, but with each day that passes, the easier it's getting to just ignore everything and go back to "normal."

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She is so good at presenting herself as a loving caring nice I only want what’s best for my daughter mother that it’s really hard for me to stand back and realize that actually she’s a manipulative selfish self obsessed user.

I can't tell you how much it helps me to hear that someone else knows the confusion that a mother like that provokes. When my mother presents herself as being so caring and loving, and then when we get in an argument that causes her to get so so angry with me, I have entirely convinced myself that I absolutely HAVE to be at fault for her to do a 180 that quickly. It doesn't make sense to me, and although I'm started to realize that it may not be my fault, I'm still very far from really believing it. But it still helps tremendously to know that I'm not the only one that has ever felt this way.

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I wonder if you were able to let yourself feel angry about her (not necessarily with her directly) whether that might not help you deal with some of the mass of conflicting feelings she causes in you?

This feels so dangerous to me. If I were to get angry, I wouldn't act the same with her. She mainly talks to me through emails - if we talk on the phone, it's always because I initiate the phone calls. But in both situations, I know that I wouldn't be the same...and she would probably recognize this as more time went on. This has happened a couple times, and she always gets so angry with me that I'm mad at her for some reason. And if I can't tell her why (both because it would make everything worse and because I don't think I could ever spit the words out) then everything will get exponentially worse. Maybe once I am hopefully in a more supportive situation with this new T I can eventually get in touch with my anger, but it's too scary right now. I guess I need to go through more time where I'm just doing and saying things that placate her before I do what I need to.

Starfish -

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if I dare tell her that she'll get really miffed and not talk or be 'off' with me for days. So I say usually what she wants to haer to keep the peace.

Oh yes, I completely understand this. I can only hope that I can learn to not be afraid to say what I feel someday. It's always been a bad thing, and the more I realize that it shouldn't be a bad thing, the more pain it causes every time my feelings are totally ignored, negated, dismissed, etc.