Posted this a few days ago but then got paranoid that T2 was reading this, but I don't really think she is.

Anyway, T2 has given me an ultimatum...I have to choose between her and T1...T2 will no longer work with me if I continue to work with T1.

I told her that I choose T1 then. T2 says she is going to give me some more time to think about that choice as she thinks I can be better served by working with T2. Basically T1 and T2 do not like each other, though neither will come right out and say that...but I am not stupid. I can read between the lines.


T2 feels that my attachment to T1 is too strong, she feels that T2 and I are too close and the boundaries are too fuzzy. T2 feels that she has better skills as a therapist and can help me more than T2. I do not disagree with T2 that her skills are better, though I simply cannot bear the thought of having to terminate with T1.

T1 is being amazing and cheering me on as I stand up to T2 and tell her that I think she is giving this ultimatum to me out of a need to be in more control and that I feel this stems from her needs rather than what is best for me. It feels so good to have T1s support in how I am handling things.

I thought I would be more upset by this...and perhaps I will be when it becomes a reality and I have to say goodbye to T2, but today in the session where T2 discussed this with me, I was calm and relatively unemotional.

I suppose I knew that eventually it might come to this and I'm glad that I'm in a better place mentally right now. Had this happened a few months ago, I don't think I could have gotten through it.

I see T2 again next week and she will make a decision then, I guess about when to terminate my therapy. She was a little vague about whether she is going to terminate me for certain or not, but I made it clear to her that I am certain about my decision. If i have to choose, it will be T1. She has stuck by me over the years and has never abandoned me and I finally have come to believe that she never will. She has not given up on me and I am not going to give up on her.

Also, the way I see it...if T2 is willing to cut me loose now...what is to say that she won't do that down the road, even IF i choose to work with just her? Its simply too risky.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: LadyGrey,

quote:

Originally posted by deepfried:
((LG)) I'm sorry you have to make this choice that's awful. I'm glad T1 is being supportive. I can imagine how difficult this is because of the attachment feelings and because of feeling that T2 is a 'more skilled' T (at least that is what you've said at times).

Will T1 still require you see someone in person? Wishing continued low stress and ease for you through this

Thanks, DF.

T1 has not said that she will require me to see someone in person. I know that she would prefer that, but I also know that she isn't going to terminate me if I don't.

Also, T1 told me yesterday that I am doing so well, "the best I've seen in 8 months...I am so happy!", she said. However, I do know that she is very scared about my health and would like it if I allowed my medical doctors to communicate with my therapists. Actually, T2 indicated she would continue working with me while I work with T1 if I allow one of them to be in communication with my doctor's.

But to answer your question about T1, she is putting zero pressure on me right now. She just won a battle with me last week to go on anti-anxiety meds and that conversation was so painful (she cried hysterically)...I don't think she is in a hurry to have another conversation like that.

Sea-green, I love that new smiley too! Thanks for the fun hug.

From what I understand, T2 feels like she is "in the dark" regarding things that are going on in my life, my health status, etc. Keep in mind that she left the country for 5 weeks and just got back last week, so its not like I am shutting her out. I haven't seen the lady, so how I am I supposed to keep her in the loop.

Also, she feels that my relationship with T1 is too close for T1 to be of any help to me. She feels that I am too attached to T1...and that T1 is too attached to me. I don't think that T2 was bothered that T1 was crying last week because T2 cried a bit as well today as she was telling me "I don't want to be having to attend your funeral soon" (because I am facing some very serious medical issues related to my ED). However, her tears were more contained, not any where near the level of emotional involvement that T1 exhibited last week.

I know that T2 has some valid points, but I also believe that she is a bit of a control freak who wants to micromanage my therapy. She doesn't like that when I have a conflict wiht her, I run to T1 to process and vice versa. However, in my defense, I do process things with each of them directly as well.

Oh, and to answer your other question...I don't feel that I need to meet with a T in person. I do long to see T1 in person, give her a hug, smile and laugh with her in person as well as cry in the safety of her presence. And I know she feels limited in some way because of the phone...but the most part, it works. I would like to make a trip to see her sometime later this year, though I fear it will perhaps be more painful for me to see her for that one hour and then have to leave...than to never have seen her at all after all these years. I can't explain why...but it just seems like there will be a lot of build-up of excitement in anticipation and then that one hour will fly by so quickly. And then it will be over. There is something very sad about that to me, and perhaps that is the very reason I stopped going back to see her on my vacations home from college a few years after we terminated my therapy when I was 18.

Hmm I’m not sure I’m doing a very wise thing in posting this, and I want to say in advance that it comes from a place of concern. I actually wanted to post something like it earlier when I read about the way T1 cried hysterically about your ED/health issues and your thread now just spurred me on say this. So I’m sorry in advance for sounding like a doom monger

The huge red flag that is waving at me about your decision to choose T1 is the level of emotional involvement T1 is displaying towards you. All along my impression of your relationship with T1 is that you are much more like friends than client and therapist (and I understand that that is what T2 was saying to you.) There seems to be a lot of personal involvement between you and T1 and I have doubts that such a close personal relationship can be as effective therapeutically in the long run as a more professional one, such as you have with T2. I would be happy to be corrected on this, though.

I also find it a bit disconcerting that T1 is openly supporting you in your decision to choose her, that says to me that she has an emotionally vested interest in your choice and almost shows that she has been effectively trying to ‘win’ your loyalty and commitment exclusively towards her – that ‘cheering you on’ smacks of rivalry and jealousy on her part, is she really supporting you in your choice for YOUR best interests, or in order to get her own emotional needs met, to ‘triumph’ over T2?

Obviously I don’t know anything about how T2 is but from what you say I wouldn’t have thought she is trying to control you as such, I can see that she is delivering this ultimatum out of concern for you.

Oh I’m sorry LG if this is preaching at you or sounding like I’m criticizing, and I do get how the attachment to T1 is so important that T2’s ultimatum just sounded like a spiteful foot stomping ‘if you don’t play by my rules then I won’t play anymore’. I just think this is a very tricky situation and maybe you want to spend a bit more time thinking about your motives and needs and the potential consequences of your choice.

Sorry again for being so negative.

LL

I am concerned because it seems to me from all you have written about T1 is that she is getting some of her emotional needs met by you LG and in the long run that is only going to hurt you. That is my concern. I had a relationship like this with a T a long time ago and trust me when it was over well she didn't have time for me and I felt burned because I thought we were going to be friend because of how much she broke the therapeutic boundaries with me. She hurt me more than anyone I know. WHen Ts get their needs met through their clients it is the client who gets hurt.

LG,

I have to chime in here and add my 2 cents. I agree with the others about the emotional involvement I too have felt from T1.

I don't know if it's like this for you or not, but for me, the fact that I feel some emotional involvement from my own T causes my life to pretty much hang on her responses (or sometimes lack of) to me, and when things are going well (which isn't as often as I think they should) then great, life is okay. Not good, but okay. However, when things with her are NOT good, my life is in the crapper, and my depression gets worse, my mood is awful, and I am consumed with thoughts of the relationship. It is actually really painful, and I wonder how harmful it is for me. If I had an ED, I can imagine that would be easily triggered by my relationship ups and downs with my T. Sometimes I think I need a T who is more detached, like your T2. But I understand the extreme emotional attachment you have to T1. It's SO HARD to have to let go of something that you feel is so precious to you, even if it is not the most helpful/beneficial/healthy thing for you.

Please really give this some serious thought. I too am concerned about you and the seriousness of your health with your ED. You need some serious help with this, with a real live person to person relationship, not one that is long distance over the phone where she only has so much she can do to help you.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. And like the others have said, I'm not judging you over your choice, just saying that I want what's best for you over the long run. You really are stuck in a hard place right now. (((((LG)))))

Hang in there, and please keep posting. Don't isolate yourself. That's the worst thing you could do right now.

MTF

LG,

I can only imagine what a difficult decision this is for you. I share the concerns that LL and DF posted about. And MTF...we cross posted!

quote:

She doesn't like that when I have a conflict wiht her, I run to T1 to process and vice versa.

This has been my biggest concern about this set up all along. It has seemed like there is a great deal of triangulation going on and I'm not sure that is good for the therapy process.

Have you considered perhaps finding a 3rd T and maybe getting a consult about what might serve your needs the best in this situation? I am concerned that T1 is no longer objective and it sounds like you don't really trust T2 so I wonder if a 3rd party might help to sort things out.

Whatever you decide, we will be here to support you. I just don't want to see you get hurt.

Wow oh wow, (((LG))), I do not envy the spot you are in right now. I can see the concerns that others have mentioned about T1, and yet I also sympathize with you wanting to stay with her. Why wouldn't you want to remain with the T with whom you have the most attachment? I certainly don't have all the facts but I am not necessarily convinced that T1's emotional concern for you is self-serving. I believe she genuinely wants to help you. She did finally put her foot down about the meds, even though it caused a rupture. Clearly it was hard for her to do, but she did it because it seemed to be in your best interests. She's a bit more limited in her interactions with you since you don't see her in person, and I think that may be detrimental to you and is frustrating to her as well. So will she be able to help you progress as much as T2 might? The triangulation thing I definitely see is a problem, so it does make sense for T2 to force the issue of choice if having 2 T's is harming more than helping. I can see how you would see that as abandonment or a precursor to it -- I initially had the same thought. But as I think more about it, T2 would not be completely abandoning you because she would be leaving you in the hands of the T of your choice, not leaving you completely alone with no support at all. And she is also willing to be the one whom you choose to stay with. She is just setting a boundary about the way in which she is able to continue giving you her support.

I guess I don't have as much of a definite opinion as some of the others, just sharing my own conflicted thoughts and letting you know I am reading and listening.

Hey everybody, thank you for the feedback and replies. I am not at all offended by anything anyone has said, so no need to worry about having been too honest or appearing critical of T1, etc. This is a tough situation for me and it is hard to see clearly being in the middle of it and I welcome the insight and feedback from all of you.

LL, I hear what you are saying regarding your concern that the level of personal involvement may be too great between T1 and I. I sometimes worry about that as well, though there is that part of me that wants nothing more than to be close with her, so even though it could be dangerous for my therapy in the long run, I cherish the closeness. However, I do want to say something regarding your comment about being concerned about T1 openly supporting my decision to choose her. I need to clarify that this is not the case. What she has said to me all along is that she supports whatever decision I make regarding T2, even if that means terminating with T1. She has not encouraged me to term with T2. However, she has been vocal in saying that she does not agree with some of the decisions T2 is placing upon me. Also, T1 has been supportive of my standing up to T2 on a few issues that have been raised that I feel have more to do with T2s needs than my own. But T1 has never pressured me to continue to work with her. She did express some fears about me firing her last week, but never has she pushed for me to stop working with T2 or to chose T1 over T2. Hopefully that clears some things up.

DF,
It isn't that T1 doesn't want to be in contact with my doctors....but she knows me well enough to know that if she pushes the issue, I will likely quit therapy altogether. I know for a fact that she is terrified for me and feels frustrated that in order to get me to take meds, she had to risk a major rupture with me. (I also want to point out that it was T1 who got me to take the meds, not T2). Anyway, I believe that T1 is feeling like she has just won a major battle with me regarding the meds and doesn't want to push the issue of the doctor contact at this point, though I anticipate it coming up at some point soon with her.

MTF,
I can relate so much to what you wrote about your emotional involvement with your T to cause your life to hang on her responses. I have felt this way a lot with T1. Like last week, for example...when she was an emotional wreck about my health and she was scared I was going to fire her...I saw her as vulnerable and I realized just how much she cared about me. As a result, I felt closer to her than I ever have in the past and I have been on a bit of a therapeutic high the past week with T1...texting day and night ,emailing, her texting me out of the blue to wish me good luck on my job interview, etc. It has felt so amazing. But boy do I fear the day when she is distracted by another client or personal life or not feeling as connected to me as before...it is going to hurt and I will likely go in a downward spiral of anxiety and self-loathing. And it is bound to happen, because after all, we can't get much closer than we already are without violating boundaries...so the only way to go from here is backwards and that scares the shit out of me.

STRM,
I like your suggestion of finding a 3rd T for a consult. Maybe that would be the best solution at this point. I am sure T1 would be fine with it, but I am worried that T2 will be pissed off at me so I would need to check with her first about this.

MH,
I agree with you that T1s emotional concern for me is not necessarily self-serving. I think she cares a great deal for me, but I think it comes from a place of wanting to help me as a professional helping a client and I think her tears are primarily out of frustration of feeling powerless in her ability to help me when I am so far away and refuse to allow my doctors to talk to her (and was refusing meds). But as you said, she put her foot down and got me to a point where I agreed to take meds...which is more than T2 was able to do. I honestly think T2 feels a bit jealous that T1 was able to get me to do that. She sees that T1 has more influence over me and I believe that touches her narcissistic nerves (and yes, I truly do believe that she has some narcissistic tendencies).

However, I also agree with you that T2 is not treating this a termination, per se, but is putting the ball in my court, so to speak. She is giving me the power to choose for myself. But I also believe that she knew I would choose T1, so in a sense, it really wasn't a choice. It was termination masked as a choice.

One thing that really irks me the most about this whole situation is that T2 will not come right out and terminate me. Even when I looked her dead in the eyes and said, "Okay, well I choose T1", she still wouldn't terminate me. Instead she is dragging this out (and costing me more money in the meantime by continuing to meet with her) and wants me to come up with a list of my goals for therapy and how I think I can achieve those goals, who can help me reach those goals, etc. So I see her next Thursday and we will go from there.

Oh, another thing about this that is very upsetting to me is that T2 keeps saying, "I haven't seen you since May! I don't even know what is going on in your life. I am in the dark about your life". and I'm like, "WTF? You were gone for six weeks! How is it my fault that you are in the dark about my life?" and she says, "Well its not..." and I say, "Surely I cannot be the only client that you are in the dark about given how long you were gone." and she said, "That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me. And my other clients aren't in a medical crisis where their lives are at stake". I can see her point to a degree, but I don't think its right to terminate me because she was gone for six weeks. That was her choice. Not mine. Its not like I've intentionally left her in the dark.

I was feeling okay about things yesterday but this morning I woke up feeling really sad about the whole thing. I feel like whenever I let people in close to me, they either physically hurt me, die, or abandon me. I am left wondering, "What is wrong with me??? Why don't people like me when they get close to me?" I told T1 these things this morning and she said to me, "I am going to be very direct here...but this termination is not about you. I wish I could say more, but I am angry and need to watch what I say right now". I'm not going to lie....it felt really good to know that T1 had my back.

I have to admit if i had a T who took a 5 week break I'd be looking for someone else. If she does that regularly then I'd have no problem choosing to leave her. 5 weeks is an awfully long time for a T to go away.

I'm sorry you are going through this LG...I'm not sure if I can really weigh in with an opinion, I'm a bit confused about your situation. I'll give you some of my thoughts and let you decide whether or not to bin them.

I've heard you speak really well of T2 before and that she is a better T with better boundaries than T1. But this has me concerned, that she is forcing your hand. This therapy is primarily *your* process and you are paying for it, so...it seems like she could tell you, kindly and without any judgement or defensiveness, exactly what she sees happening in your treatment as a result of having two T's. She could tell you that it is hindering your treatment, and that she doesn't think you will make steady progress if you choose to continue doing it this way. (if that is her reasoning) It is my opinion that she should stop there, and let you make the decision for yourself, rather than force your hand by giving you ultimatums, who to choose. Even if that is her boundary...that she does not work with clients that are seeing other T's besides her, than it seems she should have said that a lot earlier than now.

All this being said...you have made progress with her, and therapy isn't always so cut-and-dried, as you know. So she might be doing the best she can with what is clearly a complicated and sensitive situation. It makes sense that someone with your issues see someone in person. It does seem strange that she would bring this up after an extensive break. Hm...I hope that the two of you will be able to sort it all out and come to a place of agreement and compromise. I really don't like that she made it about her when she said that...she doesn't know what is going on in your life, and seemed angry when she stated that "other clients do the work with me..." and so on. It just seems like there is a lot of anger in that comment, and it's innappropriate, unless it being used really purposefully with a therapeutic reason.

i really can't see it as a case of one T being "better" or more caring, or more boundaried, or whatever than the other T. All T's are flawed, some more than others..I think it is a case of two flawed T's who do not communicate with eachother about your treatment. (am I wrong about that, forgive me, I cannot remember?) It *seems* they do not communicate with eachother professionally about your treatment, and IMHO they should. Or- would you be able to set up a SKYPE session to discuss this decision three ways with both T's? Just a thought, no idea if you would be able to afford to pay for a session with both T's at the same time or not.

Ultimately this is *your* therapy...I guess that is all I am trying to convey..

hugs, LG,

BB

quote:

I am sure T1 would be fine with it, but I am worried that T2 will be pissed off at me so I would need to check with her first about this.

LG,

That concerns me if she is opposed to a consult. I also agree with L2F that a 5 week break is a LONG time for a T to be away and if it is something done regularly I wouldn't be able to handle that.

I missed the meaning behind this for some reason

quote:

she said, "That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me. And my other clients aren't in a medical crisis where their lives are at stake".

Did she seriously expect you (with a medical crisis that is life-threatening no less) to go for 6 weeks without therapeutic support and just "wait" for her?

quote:

"That is true, but my other clients aren't running off to other therapists to tell them what is going on in their lives. They waited to do the work with me.

I just re-read and caught this. Is she serious? My T is gone for a little less than 2 weeks and she gave everyone that might need it the name and number of another T that was covering for her and fully sanctioned any necessary treatment/sessions to take place while she was gone. I can't imagine a T expecting someone to just put everything on hold for 6 weeks! I mean if you are able to then fine and dandy, but for those (like me for example) with PTSD etc, it isn't like we get to choose when this stuff comes up!!

((((LG))))

I have a vague memory of you posting awhile back. Something like that if you had to choose, you would pick T2. It sounds like you are leaning more towards t1 now. It does sound like you do have two ts who care deeply about you and the work with you.

it almost sounds like two parents arguing how to parent, but through their child. I wish they could work together as a team to provide the support you need... what a tough choice... I don't have any input to give except that I think you are doing a good job thinking it through. I hope it becomes more clear who is going to be a better fit for you in getting better and living the kind of life you want to live.

So tough to sort out, even when things are not already tough. Hang in there

jane