I still (after 44 years) don't know what to do. My Mother and I can manage to be close from time to time. However, it's like walking through a mine field with her, you never know when the attacks are coming. Here is the latest example.

Yesterday (Saturday) I asked her if she wanted to see me on Sunday. Her response? "I don't know." We haven't seen each other since my birthday on the 18th - I skipped Thanksgiving out of self-preservation. So, I called her this morning (Sunday) around 10:30 and we have a nice chat. We agree to see a movie together. There are only three things we can do together; movie, dinner, and sometimes shopping. I told her I was going to play with the French Rosetta Stone that she gave me for my birthday. Around noon-ish I called her back to brag on the fact that I had made it to Second Level. Again, a nice response and a nice chat. I told her I would be over soon to pick her up. She is a healthy 75, but she can't see very well and it was raining today. All was well.

When I arrived at her home at 1:20 she was upset that I hadn't arrived earlier since the movie starts at 1:30. Since she only lives 10 minutes from the theater, I didn't think it was that big a deal. The previews are a good 15 minutes and it wouldn't be dark when we got inside (another fear of hers - she has lots of fear). She goes on to tell me that she has invited her sister and that we were picking her up. Well, that does add another 5-minutes to the schedule, but still, doable.

I came inside to use the bathroom before we left and she started on me. "Why can't you be 'on time'?" I calmly told her that there was a driver in front of me who was driving very slowly and there was nothing I could do about it. Her response? "Well, you should have left earlier." (It would be funny if she could have left it at that.) I, again calmly, replied, "When the world becomes perfect, let me know.", still feeling a bit lighthearted. Well, she kept going on and on and on. "Most people like to arrive on time for a movie." etc. For the third time I calmly say to her, "Mom, would you please drop it?" She paused for a second but then continued on.

When we got into the car (her car) and she complained about how I was driving. And it escalated from there to the point where she started getting really insulting. "I wish you would 'grow up'!" "You don't appreciate ANYTHING I do for you." and on and on and on. So I told her that I "would 'grow up'". And I told her that we weren't going to the movies today - that I would just go home where it's peaceful (because I live alone!). She didn't want me to do that. So I told her, "Mom, I'm not going to do this with you anymore. Call your sister and tell her we aren't going." Well, she, like a child, said she wouldn't say anything else, for us to go to the movies. But then in the next breath started with her machine gun insults again. So I drove past my Aunt's street and let her tell her that I had had a "fit" and that we weren't going. As I was leaving her house (I had to go back inside to get my keys), she yells out "When I'm dead, I hope you think about how YOU treated ME!!!!!"

I drove away in utter shock. What had just happened??? We were all set for a nice day out together. What went wrong?

I never know what is going to set her off or what is going to calm her down. Her behavior is illogical. The fact that she likes to 'blame' me for starting fights when I obviously hadn't. And when you try to reason with her, it's like talking to a two year old. I know she is older and on lots of medication, but she's been like this F-O-R-E-V-E-R. I have spent countless hours in therapy; taking drives to try to figure her out; and hours and hours trying to process her insanity. She has the entire family convinced that I am the problem. But, I have noticed over time that she really is the instigator. It's like she can't stand peace for very long. Maybe this was her "Thanksgiving fight" that she didn't get to have with me this year because I avoided the whole thing.

I've heard a thousand times from therapists that we can't change them, we can only change ourselves. My only defense is to do exactly what I did today: start off calm and then remove myself when things escalate. But it still really hurts. And it has ruined my day. Even though I managed to drive away and enjoy my day, the thoughts have permeated every part of my day (and evening) - like it does every time she does this. Talking to her is useless because she will only turn things on me. We even went to (Court appointed) therapy when I was a teenager and all was fine as long as it was me who was at fault. As soon as the therapist turned to her to take some responsibility she literally got up,walked out and never went back and that was over 30! years ago!!! Nothing has changed, although she says, "she loves me".

HELP.

SpaGirl,

Hi! It sounds like you had a really rough day. I really don't think there's anything I can do to "help", per se, but it sounds like you've talked to some Ts about this before. And it does sound like that bit about "not being able to change other people" kinda stuck in your head. Do you think it's a helpful idea?

Hi Wynne,

No I don't think accepting other people's bad behavior is a good idea. But what else is there when the person only changes temporarily?

From time to time, Mom and I can sit down and have rational talks. And from time to time she is "normal". But when she goes off like she did today, I just can't understand it. She wasn't provoked - or egged on in any way (at first). After "enough is enough", I did find myself slightly entangled with her and that is probably why I abandoned the situation. But one can only take stone throwing for so long without retaliation. I must pat myself on the back for at least not engaging with her to the degree she was prodding.

We have a L-O-N-G history of crazy incidents. All will be smooth sailing until the land mine(s). I am beginning to see her issue as one of (very) low self-esteem. And, I am wondering if something is fatally wrong with her health and she is reacting to that???

There is always more to the story. She seems to have a pattern of giving and then torturing. And, she drinks: "only two glasses of wine tonight". Well, those two glasses change the way she speaks - literally the sound of her voice changes and so does her personality. But that had nothing to do with today. I don't think she's taken to drinking at noon, yet.

I don't know if it's about control with her. The fact that she is getting older and has to depend on someone for help. This is a person who won't let ANYONE pay for ANYTHING for her - even her birthday dinners! She "doesn't want to be an imposition to anyone". !

What is most sad is that now I don't feel comfortable calling her again. Again another pattern. Aren't we all just a series of patterns? Usually, if we have a blow out, we go our separate ways for a few days and then inevitably I will be the one to call her after I feel the situation is over. That's another thing, she hardly ever calls me. I am the one who (tries) to keep this relationship together. We only have each other. Her husband is dead and she is alone for the first time ever in her life. I've always been alone. Although I want someone in my life, I am reluctant because of her. No one else on Earth treats me the way she treats me (badly & crazily). My life without her is peaceful, and I would want a person who would support that. But to bring in someone with her alive and able to spit her venom, could very easily ruin my relationship with them. So I wait.

Wish I could list all or at least some of the craziness she has thrown at me over the years, but my fingers would come off from all that typing! (Thankfully, I still have my sense of humor!)

What the Therapists can't tell me is what to do with the PAIN? I can't divorce her and get on with my life, she is my Mother. I am able to stand my ground, but to what loss? Now we will go back to not talking for a while and then she will act like everything is fine and it will be for a while. But where's the apology? Where is the taking responsibility for your actions which have hurt the person you say you love???

My sister used to totally do all of that shit to me. She has never seen a T but I did some research and kind of figured out that my sis has borderline personality disorder. "Borderlines" are impossible to deal with because they have their own version of the truth and will not see things any other way no matter what evidence is presented to them. I was the youngest and often her target for verbal and emotional (and sometimes physical) abuse for years. She ran the family since me and my parents were all so afraid of her blowing up at the smallest thing and yelling at all of us and then breaking down sobbing because she was really the victim in the whole matter. I went along with this until I was about 30.

When I went to therapy for severe anxiety and depression I had no idea that I was abused at all by her because I thought that is was normal sibling rivalry stuff. When I finally had the "aha" moment and saw my twisted family situation for what is was the only thing I could do to save myself was to completely cut off contact with my sister. Ya, she wasn't too happy at first and I got a lot of nasty phone messages and emails. I didn't respond to any of them. If she showed up at my parents' house while I was there I simply left. This lasted 2 1/2 yrs until I was confident that I could be in her presence and hold my ground and not take her shit. And I haven't. And she has behaved really well because I think she is scared that I will cut her off again like that if she doesn't. So we have been on friendly terms for the last 5 years but I still don't trust her. I am still ready to leave any family gathering at the slightest hint that she is going to blow up at me or anyone else.

This is my story and how I handled an abusive family member who would never listen to reason. I still haven't even told her why I stopped talking to her in the first place because I know she would never believe that she has ever treated me that badly. Thank goodness she hasn't asked. Even if she did I wouldn't get into it. Anyway, I read a book called "Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care about Has Borderline Personality Disorder" by Mason & Kreger and it really shed a lot of light on my sister and why she behaves the way she does and what to do about it. Even if your mom isn't borderline it may still be beneficial to learn a little about it (if you haven't already) since some of the behaviors you have described are very similar.

I am so sorry that your mom can be so hurtful. It was one thing to deal with my sister but it would be something much more difficult and painful if it were my mother. You sound like you know what to do to protect yourself but I bet you miss having a mother, a real mom on whom you can depend to love and accept you and not hurt you.

Hi River,

Thanks so much for your reply. It's nice to hear some acknowledgment. I do wish the abuse was coming from someone I could more easily walk away from. Maybe that is one of the more painful parts. There is obviously a part of me that wants to stand up and say, "You can't talk to me like that!" and I sure have been trying. Just think of how many people just take it and get beat up day after day (verbally here).

I will definitely look up Borderline Personality Disorder. I have always wondered if she had an "ism".

I have gone into therapist's offices and when they ask me why I'm there my response is, "I want to understand my Mother." Apparently, that is never going to happen. My only recourse is to state my boundaries and then walk out when they are broken.

I woke up earlier this morning wondering if I should write to her and tell her that I am not going to do this with her anymore? Let her know that when Christmas comes and we have to be together, that if she starts on me in any way, I will get up and leave - even if it is at dinner or while the family is unwrapping presents.
What do you think?

I have given up trying to reach out to her sister (my Aunt) because she would just tell me to ignore her or something flippant. Even as Mom was calling her to tell her we weren't going to the movies, she started with, "You know how 'spagirl' is..." It's just mean - and so uncalled for.

Hi SpaGirl, Nice to have you on the forum. Sometimes we do just have to set the boundaries. However, I can appreciate how difficult that must be for you to do with your mom. Our moms are supposed to be warm, nurturing, loving and when they behave otherwise it can be downright confusing. My heart goes out to you.
JM

I'm back! I looked up BPD and she does seem to fit. I worry that we all fit at some level (lol). From a diagnostic point of view, she does have very low self-esteem and low self-worth, feeling like she is never good enough. Out of the thousand examples I could state, here is just one. The family (eight in total) went out West for a riding holiday. It was a Mormon ranch. At the first night's dinner we were to stand up and individually state our name and tell the others a little about ourselves. Everybody did just fine ... "I'm so and so and this is where I live and this is what I do for a living." Then it was Mom's turn. In front of the entire week's group and the Mormon hosts she says, "I am a flunky and a drunk." (!!!!!)
Yeah, now are you getting a clearer picture? W-O-W! And she proceeded to get drunk off the bottles of wine she brought with her to the point of spilling her water on the table. I thought it was just an accident, but my Aunt (same one) told me, "No, she was drunk and hit the plate as she was putting her glass back down."

But I'm to blame, right? It's amazing how protective people will be to the wrong people.

I am as far removed from the Aunt's family as I could get. And it's no wonder. If she believes everything Mom has said about me over the years, I must be a monster. That's pretty sad, too. Now I don't have any family members to turn to. They all take her side and can't see the truth - or want to.

Oh, back to her "diagnosis". She is also a controlling person. I'm thinking back to when I was a child and everything seemed fine (and yes, she would come home drunk then, too.). But our relationship was at its best. Now I know why. She was in control of everything. She controlled when I woke up, what I ate and when, what I wore, where I went - everything. Then, as I became an unruly teenager (and aren't we supposed to?), our relationship got worse. This also coincides with her marrying the step-father (a WHOLE other story - not for here). So I think part of her issues now are that she is getting older and will need help from others and that really doesn't sit well with who she perceives she is: a strong, hard -working woman.


Here is our pattern: get along smoothly for a while; instigate a fight; I will always try to patch things up even when I'm not at fault; her response? The Martyr. "Well I am so sorry you feel that way." "I've done everything I possibly can for you." leaving me to feel like I have to make HER feel better!

What to do? Is there anything that could "fix" this? Besides avoidance?

Hi SpaGirl,

I am sorry your mother is such a bad mother. Only you know what kind of cutoff you can live with. As in you stay emotionally detached, you leave whenever she starts her bad behaviour, you limit your phone calls and visits or you cut her off completely but what I think it is important to remember is you get to decide what works for you and it is okay to do any of these things. People around us (who have better mothers) will give you the "she's your mother" like it means that you should be able to be around her and get along and love her and we can blame ourselves for the relationship failures but they don't know what it is like. People and society think there is something sacred about the mother-child bond (not that there isn't) but some mothers don't deserve the title.

I just want to share a little of my personal story. I have 5 siblings and without a doubt my mother treated and continues to treat me terribly. Most people think she is great, including my husband and children (she is a good grandmother). When it comes to me she always finds something to blame me for, insult me, argue with and generally be difficult. She waits for me to be alone and then blames my personality, appearance, moods or existence for every problem between her and me, me and my husband and my children's misbehaviour.

My weight loss doctor referred me to my T to discuss my eating habits and I brought up my CSA. When discussing my mother with my weight loss doctor he told me she had narcisstic personality disorder and the only solution was to cut her off completely for a serious amount of time (6months-1year) and then when I restarted the relationship give her very clear rules about what I would accept from her. I told my T that even if that was the "healthiest" way to deal with her I couldn't do that. While we have talked over the last 3 months, I have realized a few things including that she is very narcissistic (self-centred and concerned with appearances). I have been able to detach from our unhealthy dynamic with a lot less pain than before. She has found it difficult and ramped up some of her behaviours but since they don't bother me I can laugh about it. We aren't talking about it but our relationship has changed. She also expected me to do all the calling and when I missed a few days she would chew me out but now she just calls me because I don't call her.

Lastly, I've been able to grieve the fact that I didn't have the mother I wanted and probably deserved. She wasn't the same with me as with my siblings. I think it is more difficult when your mother has times when you can connect with her but I think it is important that you can grieve that she isn't the mother you need and want and unfortunately we only get one mother in life. Try and acknowledge that and look for what you need in other relationships which you can protect from your mothers toxicity.

good luck and vent as often as you need.

quote:

I have gone into therapist's offices and when they ask me why I'm there my response is, "I want to understand my Mother." Apparently, that is never going to happen. My only recourse is to state my boundaries and then walk out when they are broken.

One of the things I like best about therapy is that it's about _me_. It's one of the only times I _don't_ have to worry about the other person (the therapist here, obviously) or get all rejectified and whatnot.

It's kinda nice to be able to work on understanding myself outside of the kind of highly critical atmosphere you describe as family meetings.

WOW. Well, I am obviously not alone here. I am seeing the value in this forum. It's great to be able to write it out (out, literally), and it's wonderful to hear everyone else's stories and takes on the matter.

Yes, I gave up the idea of a "loving, nurturing mother" a L-O-N-G time ago. Luckily, I did have one of those figures in my life: My Grandmother. Unfortunately, she is dead. But it is nice to remember actually laughing with someone in my family! And remembering all the fun we would have together.

And with Mom, it isn't black and white. She isn't abusive all the time. That would be easier. No, I get lulled into a false sense of security when we go for weeks and sometimes months without incident (well, more like one month). It's the surprise attack that shocks me. You know, fine at 10:30am, fine again at 12:15pm, then (seemingly because I hadn't arrived at her preferred time) she starts picking. I even remember being nice to her in the car. Before we got out of her subdivision I said, "You smell pretty. What are you wearing?" and holding her hand to smell her lotion. So from that to the huge blow up that occurred in so few minutes after that, what happened??? Why did she go off on me?

It's like she's locked in the past. The statements she makes are not based in truth. "You don't appreciate anything I do for you?" for example. Such a lie. I even yelled out at her, "Stop LYING!" over and over again to get her back to reality. No Mom, I hate you. That's why I drove 20-miles in the rain to see you; that's why I call you every day to see how you are. And then she throws in the money issue. Mom will buy something for you - not that you asked her to - and then yesterday in the car started using that as fuel for her out-of-reality fire. "I gave you such and such and you don't appreciate it." blah, blah, blah. Which is also not true. I have told her "thank you" a thousand times. I am constantly thinking of ways to be kind to her and to show her appreciation and love. It really sucks when you are being a good, kind, considerate person and NO ONE in your family sees it. They are all happy with her distorted fake version. Me bad, Mom good.

I envision our relationship on a scale of 1-10, with 5 being "neutral" - not bad, not good. I realized several years ago that we hardly ever get above a 6. (10 would be ecstatically happy, 1 is kill me now) At the best of times, we remain neutral: pleasant, small talk (how's the weather, what are you watching on TV, that sort of thing). Occasionally, the scale will go up a little like when we see a movie she thinks is funny and she laughs out loud. But most times it's a 5 or worse. The fights aren't so bad (anymore) as to be a level 1 or 2. But so far below general happiness as to cause me disruptive pain and suffering. And it's such a waste. I think of all the time I have lost embroiled in one of her issues. Like now. This is great, being able to talk to people and write out what I feel. But it's taken my day yesterday, my evening, and now a large part of my day today. All this just to feel better from something I had no control over - and something I didn't do. I'm not wallowing in my suffering - suffering caused from my life or my behavior. No, I'm spending all this time processing HER SUFFERING. I want MY LIFE. Without her, my life is peaceful, calm, fun. I laugh and sing and kiss my kitties. Hmmm.

Hi Spagirl and welcome to the forums, I'm really glad you're finding it helpful, it's a good thing to know you're not alone in how you feel.

I understand your struggles with your mom. I'm actually estranged from my mom right now. About a year and a half ago I started running into material in therapy that was releasing a lot of anger about my mom and I just didn't want to be near her. We were actually cut off once before and after letting it slide for about six months I decided I really wasn't being fair. So last Thanksgiving ('07) I called and told my mom that I was doing some difficult work in therapy and needed some distance but that I loved her, I would be back and I hoped she could understand. (BTW, I told her about my father's abuse around 14 years ago, she told me she believed me, than turned around and told my sister that she believed that I believed it, but it didn't happen. A rather creative solution I thought to being able to maintain a relationship with me but not having to face a reality she had NO capacity to handle. Mom's not real good at recognizing forgiveness so she would have had nowhere to go).

She was really good about it and I said I would call at Christmas, I did and we talked for around 45 minutes and things were good. My mother-in-law who lived with us died on January 12th. My whole family were very close to her and it was a very difficult loss. We were on a death watch at the hospital for two days before she went and while on the phone with my sister (the one I'm really close to because she also has done years of therapy ) told me that she would call my mom. That was a relief because I had a cell phone embedded in my ear. My husband has two brothers and they were all so upset (understandably!) that I ended up making all the phone calls, so it was a relief to have one less to make. When mom passed, I got to be the one to break it to about 20 people (I lost track) and again didn't call my mom knowing that she was in touch with my sister. We NEVER heard from my mother, no flowers, no card, no phone call. I was ok until I realized that not only was she ignoring me she was ignoring her son-in-law of 23 years who had always been good to her and her two grandaughters. I still have not heard from her. And I can guarentee you that she is sitting at home feeling wronged that I didn't call her directly and that she couldn't get in touch with me because I had told her she needed space. As if my family experiencing a major loss is a "normal" circumstance. I know that I need to re-establish contact but I know that I can only protect myself if I really understand before I go back in there that I can expect nothing from her, no apology and no understanding. I love my mother, but I will NEVER have the relationship I long to have with her, nor will I ever get from her want I long for. Them's the cold hard facts and I've grieved very deeply over them. Part of what made losing my MIL so difficult is that I did have that kind of relationship with her. In many ways, she felt more like my mother than my mother does. I called my best friend from high school when my MIL was in the hospital dying and she told me that she was going to tell me two things and that I needed to promise to listen to her. The first was that I was to accept any help that was offered (did I mention she's known me for LONG time?) and the second was to realize that I was losing my mother and I needed to respect how deep a loss it was.

So trust me, I understand. And River is right, your mom is toughest relationship in which you can experience this.

One more thing, it took me a lot of years and a lot of therapy until I finally came to realize that my mom and my other sister were having a relationship with and reacting to a person that had NOTHING to do with me. It was a person they had constructed in their head that had nothing to do with who I really was or what I really did. So it really was ok to ignore what they say and feel about me, because it's not about me. That sounds to me like what your mother is reacting to. Not you and your real behavior but this person she carries in her brain that fulfills some obscure need of hers to be conflictual. I'm really sorry, I know how painful this can be.

AG

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and experiences. I had my "Ah-ha" moment yesterday. Once I read about Borderline Personality Disorder and compared experiences, I saw my Mom more clearly than I ever have. My need to understand her has been fulfilled. I am getting the book River recommended from the library today to get tools on how to deal with it.

I saw things from my Mom's perspective and felt what she must have felt with her distorted reality. When I didn't arrive at the time she was expecting it triggered her ... "She is going to be late and we are going to miss the movie ... the theater will be dark when we get there and I won't be able to see ... she will drive too fast and we will get into a wreck ... I can't call her cell phone because she never answers ... how dare she do this to me ... why couldn't she arrive on time so none of this would happen ... my daughter has no respect for me ...". She was probably already in a tizzy before I ever arrived. Of course, none of that actually happened, but in her fear-based world, it is a scary place.

My friend suggested that I 'spell out every detail of every event so there can be fewer triggers'. That might have worked in a logical and perfect world, but there is one thing wrong with that advice: it suggests that I am in control of her behavior, which I am not. That was one of the biggest things I had to learn.

Thanks again for helping me through this. One thing is for sure, I will be back ... probably sometime around Christmas! ;-)