I hear how much it all feels too much right now, I hear your anger, and that you feel that you are somehow toxic. I hear your frustration and wanting to stop the pain of hoping, because hope can be such a painful painful thing. I hear your absolute tiredness, I hear your self-blame. I hear your emptiness and rage.

I hear you.

I'm not damaged by it. I've felt those things too. I bet others here have also. I can hear you and you aren't hurting me.

Sitting nearby and holding the hope for you.

Love,

sb

(((GG)))
I hear you and I believe you - I too have felt and do feel still at times, that I contaminate those around me.

My T reminds me though feelings are not facts. Nor do thoughts need to lead to actions.

I hope y can contact yr T and let her know this is how you feel. Give HER the opportunity to say 'yeah ok, you're right, I do feel that way' - OR NOT!

It's a huge risk I understand - what if she agrees with you?

Buuuuutttttt - what if your perception isn't how she really feels? what if you terminate a therapy relationship that you FEEL is toxic to your T but it's not really how it is?

What if how you feel right now is contamination from your past? What if you're wrong? (Not saying how you feel is wrong by the way!).

Ultimately it will be your decision. I would encourage you however to sit back for a wee bit; it's a very good chance how you feel right now, this intensity, WILL PASS.

Read back through some of yr posts - you may see a pattern of how quickly things can change for you in terms of how you feel. You have gone from feeling your T is a cold, uncaring, unresponsive cow to feeling she is kind, caring, awesome, and does care a lot about you. You've gone from hating her, to missing her. You've gone from feeling so vulnerable to feeling empowered. Often this is in a matter of hours

Thank You SB and ElizaJ,

I terminated therapy today. I feel nothing. It isn't about T. It is entirely about me. She was wonderful.

((((ghostgirl))))

Ending therapy is not the same as ending all hope for a better life. Things never stay the same. There's always room for change for the better.
You've reached out to us, and we're still here. And we will welcome you, anytime.
love

Hi GG,

Mental illness is a terrible thing. We all have our own way of dealing with it. We all have our ups and downs. At times we all feel the hole is too deep, that nobody really understands what we're going through. I hope you will take a few days just to be with yourself. After that I hope you will consider asking your (ex)T what her assessment of you is. I know that be a very scary thing to do, but sometimes we become so all consumed with what we are wrestling with that we develop false notions of ourselves and the people around us. Take care...

LongRoad

Wondering how you are GG, and wondering deep down, did you want / hope your T to respond to yr stopping therapy in a particular way?

I can only imagine (and I may be completely wrong) if I were in your situation I'd be hoping my T would contact me and try to convince me to stay - as a form of reassurance that hey, she did care and hey, I'm not a 'bad seed'.

Just want you to know you're not flawed and not 'toxic'- you're hurting and have been hurt. And if your T gives you space it's likely that she is respecting yr decision to terminate therapy and doesn't want to hurt you further by being seen to pressure you to come back. She won't want to make you hurt further.

Hi ElizaJ,

No I didn't have much expectation of her contacting me and don't really feel much about it. It was her job to care about me for 45 minutes a week. I am glad she hasn't contacted me. I don't feel connected to much right now, nor do I want to. Disconnected is pretty much where I need to be right now. I have pretty much just given up on myself. Or maybe I am just giving myself a break. I don't do relationships well at all including therapeutic ones, so I am just better off without.

I know she did care. She stuck by me and saw me at probably my lowest weakest moments. I just am not putting myself out there anymore.

I really in my heart loved my T (nothing seedy about it) and that is exactly why I left therapy. I left for her and I left for me. So I could walk away with that love intact.

GG, there is nothing seedy about feeling love for your T. It's okay, and really normal. I know you've had really terrible experiences with your loved ones abusing your love. I wonder if your T might be a different kind of person, though. Perhaps she is safe enough in her heart that she knows how to respect the love of another and return it safely too. Might that be possible?

I don't think anyone thinks for one minute your feelings for your T are 'seedy' in any way. Even in cases if erotic transference, it's not 'seedy' - it's feelings, real feelings.

I hope with time you can make you way back to your T. It might be very very painful to keep moving forward towards her and working through the issues but I really don't see the alternative as being any 'happier' for you

I don think it all 'goes away' by cutting the see in source if the pain off - it's not yr T after all that is bringing you the pain - it's those in yr past who have hurt you, very very badly. Your T is simply there to try to help you work through the pain OTHERS have done to you.

Hope today is a better day for you

I guess I just finally came to the realization that T was indeed right when she said that there was no relationship. I came to realize that even though my warm feelings for her and about her were also not real. It feels like the whole therapy thing was big delusion. I fed myself good things when there were none.

GG - I think you would need to clarify what she meant if she said you have no relationship because its not what you've posted previously or very recently. It was as little as a week ago you shared how close you felt afyer telling her how you felt about her being cold and uncaring.

of course there is a relationshio there - but it might not be the kind you badly ache for - ie if you wanted a relationship outside the rooms it Wouldn't be ethical for her to agree to that. If you wanted a relationship where she shared her inner most feelings with you, it wouldnt be appropriate either.

can you articulate further what is is you want and what she has said isn't possible? It might help you work out what you DO and CAN have. Its not a black or white Thing I dont think - its not either or.

Hi ElizaJ,

I can't say as if I ever wanted or longed to have a relationship or even know anything about my T outside of therapy. She stated that it is not a relationship because she is non participatory. She is just a professional helping me get to a place to where I wish to be. Like a doctor helping a medical patient. I get it. I know there is no relationship for HER, but for me... I cared, I trusted, I revealed, I loved. I grappled for a long time with the no relationship thing and I get it. I don't bring my patients home with me in my head either. I don't expect that from her. I didn't expect myself to grow to love someone just because they were there. Thing is I know I wouldn't even be remotely interested in knowing her in any other sense. I dared to feel love and it scared the shit out of me because she cannot return the genuineness of love and caring. So I removed love from my life. That is safe. In the long run everyone finds out I am not worth loving anyway. I refuse to delude myself into believing that anyone could care or love me. It is something I never got, something I will never have and to be quite honest something I am desiring to push far far far far away. I feel like my love and loving me or feeling love is just way too toxic and too dangerous.

I don't see myself reconnecting anytime soon if ever. I totally made a fool of myself allowing someone to see the real wounded me. I can't do it anymore.

Hugs to everyone for being here to support me. I am sorry if I sound cold and distant, it is where I need to be to protect myself. I am very confused and just trying to push it all away. I feel incredibly wounded and stupid and idiotic and ridiculous and my self recrimination is off the charts. I loathe myself for allowing myself to even think for one second that this T actually cared. I really need to get over myself. I am not worth caring about. The sooner I realize it the better off and in more touch with reality I will be. I need to harden my core and just shut everything out.

I am so sorry. I don't even feel like I belong on the forum anymore because I am clearly at a loss! I don't even have words to express what is going on.

If I want to call it what it really is and be really honest and call a spade a spade I will

The transference issues with my T bring out my borderline behaviors and feelings to the MAX! I feel on levels that are too powerful, I have separated the transference from my real feelings for her. My real sense is that I do I love her and she has shown me love over and over again even when I didn't know it. Even when I didn't feel it... she has consistantly demonstrated loving behavior and caring. In loving my T I feel like I have to demonstrate my love for her by removing myself from her care, because my love is bad, or toxic and if I stay I will only eventually wind up turning her love into hate through my behaviors and my words. I don't want to lose the love of another woman in my life because I failed to be appropriate or good enough. I would rather just excise myself from her life and leave therapy with the feelings of being loved intact, rather than hurting later because I failed and got abandoned again. Does that even make any sense? Because it just came spilling out.

GG i dont want you for one minute think i am implying in any way that what you are feeling is 'wrong' - i don't think that. i 'get' where you are coming from, it makes sense - i guess i just feel sad for the little girl inside you who needs to try to work thigh the pain of letting someone win, so she can at least experience safety within a relationship.

Your T is participation gin a relationship - albeit a therapeutic one. to think she isn't isn't is a bi misguided. i suspect it comes down to different meanings of the word 'relationship'

if you have BPD, i am assuming your T knows this? is she specialized in working with people with BPD? what is her view of BPD? i was misdiagnosed 20 years ago as having BPD and the way it was viewed by health professionals then was extremely wrong and awful and id like to think things have changed LOT since then.

id also think your T should be helping you manage the intense feelings - whether it be via CBT of DBT or whatever is needed -it might even be you could benefit form a medication review (assuming you are on meds of course).

has your T helped you come up with a crisis plan, of how to manage intense feelings so that when you feel those things, you have a clear guideline as to how best to seek support and get through it?

if your T hasn't had a lo of experience with BPD, then it might be more helpful for you to find someone who has

i know you feel that you are stopping therapy and cutting yourself off so you 'leave the love intact' but i don't think that is what is happening - you don't seem to feel that way, form what you are posting hun ;(. you've posted a few times in the past day that she didn't care, there was no relationship, that it was never real, and she dint care at all really, other than seeing you as a client etc.

i think it might be helpful for you to review - on a daily basis if needebe - how much truth is in what you are doing to get a certain outcome.

sorry, not explaining myself well!

ie - you've left so:
a) you keep the love for your T intact - is that really happening? some posts you feel it, others you don't it seems

b) you don't want to hurt yourself though continuing to love - at the moment you say you feel numb, but you have also posted what i can only describe as what appears be be deep pain and hurting - so is that really working as you hoped?


please don't think I'm criticizing you - i guess I'm seeing it from an outsiders perspective, free of the pain and intense emotion, and i guess I'm trying to - very gently - nudge you to see if what you are doing is in fact helping protect you further…

quote:

Originally posted by ghost girl:
If I want to call it what it really is and be really honest and call a spade a spade I will

The transference issues with my T bring out my borderline behaviors and feelings to the MAX! I feel on levels that are too powerful, I have separated the transference from my real feelings for her. My real sense is that I do I love her and she has shown me love over and over again even when I didn't know it. Even when I didn't feel it... she has consistantly demonstrated loving behavior and caring. In loving my T I feel like I have to demonstrate my love for her by removing myself from her care, because my love is bad, or toxic and if I stay I will only eventually wind up turning her love into hate through my behaviors and my words. I don't want to lose the love of another woman in my life because I failed to be appropriate or good enough. I would rather just excise myself from her life and leave therapy with the feelings of being loved intact, rather than hurting later because I failed and got abandoned again. Does that even make any sense? Because it just came spilling out.

in a perfect world i would hope at some point you could tell her exactly all of this.

you never know - maybe she has an answer and / or a solution you heavenly thought of you're assuming she will come to hate you - but you don't know that for sure - if / when you do talk to her about this, might be a good idea to check it out - ask her - 'hey, if you ended up hating me, then what?'.

most Ts do therapy / have superiviosn themselves - if she was struggling with 'you' (or any client) then its HER responsibility to work on that and sort it out. presumably she is an experienced T and i doubt you would be the 'most difficult' client she's ever had. she might have had loads of clients who try to push' her away or hate her - but it doesn't mean she will take it personally.

it might very well be you can hate her all you like and still see her and - she doesn't hate you back! vein a bit 'back' form our intense feelings - that's why
"Ts don't get so emotionally involved with us - its to PROTECT US - if they became so emotionally charged with everything we did or said, they'd lose the plot cos no human being could do that with a large number of people day in, day out - they'd burn out!

chances are, she is a great, skilled T and knows hw to handle her side of things. let her do HER job, and you have nothing to actually worry about.

honestly, i think - when / if you're ready - talking this though with her would really really help alleviate your deep fears. cos to me, it seems total terror (understandably) of what you feel is inevitable pain and rejection.

Hi ElizaJ,

Thank you for nudging me along. I guess on some level I am feeling a deep pain, but it is a pain that I have brought on myself so it makes it more "dealable".

My T is the one that suggested I have BPD though my previous long term psychologist disputes the diagnosis. I absolutely own to borderline behaviors and thought patterns in certain relationships with certain women only. We were working on regulating strong emotions and putting them in their place, but the emotions were too strong for me.

Intellectually I know I am not harming my T. I know she would never give any patient the power to do that and know that she has a strong handle on herself.

There is just such a strong pull inside of me to just go away. To just disappear and vanish. I think I can handle her being out of my life (not my T) as long as it is my choice to do the separating. My FOREVER pattern is to chase women I come to love and respect away from me. I don't trust that pattern will change with this T. In the past I have always hung on til the bitter end, trusting that a person wouldn't leave me because I am toxic, but in the end they always have which has led me to doubt and question my own feelings.

I just don't feel good enough, worthy enough, especially to her.

Of course I feel pain and sadness but I am really not giving myself the opportunity to feel it. Because I doubt my feelings I am shelving them, stuffing them and trying to lock them out to be able to cope with my utter disappointment in myself.

Ghostgirl, I don't think this T was a good match for you hun. Her 'style' is at odds with your issues. This isn't your fault - I'd not be ok with her either. We as clients potentially invest a great deal in our relationship with a therapist; at the very least a T should be completely respectful of how that feels for us and acknowledge the powerful emotions that can result from this interaction.

I also prefer to leave than to be left. I disappeared from my last T relationship. I ended it by email via 'headoffice' (my only option other than to turn up to another appointment). This T was warm in session, but completely didn't even want to think about me outside of that 50mins. To find I wasn't ok one week, after a session was not ok with her - that I wasn't ok was seen as completely my problem, not even to be explored. The main thing was not worrying her. It's really not rocket science to feel that such 'relationships' are not therapeutic at all.

I don't believe you are toxic. I have wrestled with similar feelings and gradually I now begin not to. We are not toxic. We are hurting though - and wounded in places that can't be attended to within the parameters of 50mins of 'care'. Boundaries are fine - but a starvation diet of therapy isn't the antedote to starvation childhoods is it?

You didn't bring any of this pain upon yourself. It is how it is. It hurts. A lot. You (and I) need T's that can meet us in that painful place without flinching or panic, without withdrawl or blame. Who, whilst maintaining realistic boundaries can be with us, just as it is. I have no idea how to find such a T (but I recon they do exist).

SB

I just wanted to say that SB, you are so very wise! What you write really makes sense to me. I'm so sorry you've had to go through such a difficult experience with your T.

((GG)) I'm so sorry for your pain too. It sounds just really difficult. I think what SB wrote was really insightful and useful. I just wanted to say that, yes, there are definitely therapists out there who understand this pain and who work with you in ways that do not re-traumatize you. I know it's probably really painful to think about starting over but just wanted to encourage you that there are good Ts out there when the time is right to look again.

to both SB and GG.

To those of you who have been enduring with me I just wanted to update you.

I returned to my "home base" today. I went and saw my former psychologist who treated me from 2000 to 2004 and has kept up with my progress over the years. I feel good about this decision and in returning to this T for assistance. With this T I never felt the need to be a certain way to experience a sense of worth in the therapuetic relationship. I feel like with her I am more capable of separating from my emotions and not getting caught up in them. I would like to explore what I have experience in therapy in terms of transference and the core issues it has brought to light and how to regulate my emotional responses.

With this T I don't long for things like affection, and caring and warmth and acceptance... it is clearly there in her stance.

I am hoping with her help and the emotional distance I create between myself and my T that maybe one day I can return to the therapist whose demonstration of love has sent me running in fear.

(((GG)))

Interesting you notice you experience 'BPD' emotions, feelings thoughts etc in Certain contexts only.

The latest DSM (no 5) has included in its criteria for BPD that the 'symptoms' need to be
"consistent across time and context" .

That is key - you are either borderline or you're not - it isn't just in some situations (although some situations can trigger more intense symptoms) and it's consistent across time - it doesn't 'come and go'. It might be possible to have symptoms for weeks at a time, and perhaps less intense symptoms for short periods of time - but not have it disappear altogether for years only to come back. And it wouldn't be only with certain people, either.

I was misdiagnosed in my late teens. I had some traits; but then I got better - the so called BPD disappeared. When I went through another trauma and some of the traits appeared again (albeit very very mild compared to years ago). The 'BPD' was only ever present when I was experiencing PTSD symptoms.. Now the criteria for BPD has been clarified, it's pretty clear that hey - BPD doesn't come and go - it's a personality - it's constant. Yes it can improve and those with it can definitely recover to the point they can lead functional lives - but personality at the core of a person can't fluctuate to the point someone has BPD for a few years, then doesn't have it at all, then it comes back!

What I really have is PTSD - but because my traumas were multiple, throughout my entire childhood, and largely at the hands of my caregivers, the symptoms typical of those with a single trauma experienced as an adult, present very differently.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Judith herdman's work on complex PTSD - when I read that I knew - yes, that is me. I don't relate to ALL she's written - but it made sense and I could see how I was misdiagnosed. CPTSD is not a recognised diagnosis - that is part of the problem. It's why many of us who have childhood trauma, with PTSD are often labeled as borderline, and having PTSD.

Too often women with complex trauma - Judith's work describes that as being prolonged abuse and trauma during childhood - are labelled too quickly with BPD. Perhaps in those of us with PTSD, who have endured prolonged abuse in childhood by our caregivers, exhibit differnt present kaons than those with 'simpler'' PTSD (ie single trauma as an adult).

I don't think it's any coincidence that according to Judith - 70% of women labelled with BPD fit the criteria for complex PTSD. Only 30% of those with BPD have not experience childhood trauma at the hands of caregivers.

And 'BPD' is given to women at a massive rate compared to men. Men with the same symptoms are labelled other, less stigmatised diagnoses. Personally, it is a real peeve of mine - as a feminist I think today's labelling of women who have had childhood trauma as 'BPD' reeks of society's view of women as hysterical and the medical profession has never been too kindly on 'over emotional women'. Drs didn't even used to think PMS was real - women were seen as being 'mad' when they weren't!



Sorry, off my high horse now

(((SB))) - you might very well be right - about this not T being a good fit for GG - although, I was wondering when GG identified she has these feelings with certain women in certain situations, if she would end up feeling very similar feelings regardless of who the T was - unless it was a male T?

I say that because my transference issues can be intense with some females - esp when it's an emotionally intimate situation - like in therapy. I have blocked off the possibility of transference with some Ts I've had (put up major walls to stop it happening!) but I really believe that no matter who I saw I'd be feeling the same pain - ALTHOUGH - the difference in how I manage the pain has depended on the T and how skilled they are in helping me work through it.

I definitely think GG a T Highly skilled in trauma - especially childhood trauma - would be sensitive to the very subtle triggers of intense pain we have.

We don't just need someone who can look at pink skin and see sunburn - we need someone who can see a seemingly mild case of sunburn and know underneath - it's a 3rd degree burn.

And not all 'trauma Ts' are equal. I saw a counsellor for two years who was 'experienced in trauma' (in that she had had her own to work through in the past) - but when it came to helping me with my trauma, she really didn't know enough to help me other than listen to me talk it through with her.

She didn't know what I was describing to her were flashbacks. She didn't know I was experiencing panic attacks. To be fair, my panic attacks didn't present as hyperventilating - but they don't always. My panic attacks I dissociate a little after or during them - but the symptoms come out physically. My arms and face go tingly; I shut my eyes and I sometimes need to go lie down right where I am and sleep while being awake (zip that only happens when I'm alone). Basically, growing up it wasn't safe enough to have an outward panic attack, so I'm programmed for it not to appear on the outside.

I used to think flashbacks were when y re-lived an entire event in real time, and you were in it for several minutes or longer. But that's not the case - my flashbacks have always been more subtle - lasting one or two seconds only. I only know I've had one when I find myself momentarily confused 'way is my dog here - I didn't have a dog in childhood' or I'll be driving along the road and be 'back' in childhood - then 1-2 seconds later wonder why I'm driving along in the city I'm in when I didn't live there growing up and I certainly couldn't drive a car!

A T more experienced in complex PTSD - childhood trauma though out childhood - would have been able to recognise the much more subtle presentations of PTSD. My current T nails it 99% of the time.

Hi ElizaJ,

The psychologist that I returned to is the one who refutes the BPD diagnosis because it is not a pervasive pattern of behavior. When I was in treatment with her years ago she had me pull out the DSM-IV right in her office and go over the criteria with her, and we both agreed it did not fit. I too think this trauma. I think my way of reacting and acting in certain relationships only with certain women triggers something off in me that just sets me spinning like crazy. It is like I am actually reliving the trauma on an emotional level all the time. I have close relationships with other women and have absolutely no problem.

I am confident that returning to this T will help me along. She has been around (in practice for over 20 years), I know her skill set, I trust her skill set and I trust that if I were out of her scope she would refer me out.

I definately think what I experienced with my T was trauma rooted and transference mishandled. I am like two totally different people with each one of them. With the former T, my dependency needs are actually exaggerated and I feel like I need her, like I need her attention, and her validation and all the things I didn't get as a child and I want her to step in and be the good mom. With the T I have returned to, I don't feel dependent and never have. I always felt a sense of empowerment and inherent worth and significance and a mutual respect. I feel no power differential in the therapuetic relationship with the therapist I have returned to.

In fact at the time I stopped seeing her, at that time I felt like I was ready to venture out on my own and did without therapy for a few years before returning after things went upside down for me and I felt a need to return.

I am happy we have kept email and occassional face to face correspondence over the years and that she is pretty much abreast as to what has been going on with me. I am just grateful that I have a place I can go to and be honest about my feelings and not feel a sense of shame, but rather examine my feelings and thoughts objectively and with compassion.

I will always hold a special place for former T in my heart and I hope to some day return to her to at least tell her how much I appreciate her tenaciousness and for not abandoning me.

Draggers,

I know... about the diagnosis thingy. It is aggravating. Just add one more to my multiaxis shit storm. I really just want alleviation of symptomatic behavior and that is what I am aiming for despite the root cause.

Right now, being that I have removed the "trigger" which seems to be former T, maybe I can get a grip on this crap without the emotionality involvement. I won't be tied to or caught up in my emotions and motivations because I won't be actively experiencing them with the trigger removed. I actually feel a bit relieved and hopeful. It will all work out.

I don't by any means want to come across as putting my old T down. I know she tried and would continue trying. For me right now. I need a break from my emotions from wherever they are originating from so that I can return to some sort of functional status. I feel like I have been walking around with a gaping wound that won't stop bleeding for months now and I am tired and exhausted. It is time to know when to put on the brakes.

I get the stigma surrounding BPD...there is a lot of growth within the field that is definitely needed. However, for me, I think the most important part about treating someone is addressing the core issues, wounds, attachment injuries, traumas. The label is of limited importance to me, as a clinician. (I know as a client, labels can be validating and very important - certainly I've been comforted by some labels in the past too). As a clinician, I try to look at each individual individually...with idiosyncratic issues and disturbances. The DSM labels only go so far. I think the common thread with BPD and PTSD is underlying trauma and the resulting implication of that. It's actually sometimes difficult to untangle these diagnoses because there is so much overlap. I hope someday we, as a society, can get to a place where there is much less stigma overall and especially with those labeled with BPD or BPD traits along the continuum. Sorry, total hijack.

Erica,

I totally agree. I think it kind of funny how all the docs at work send me the "borderlines" because they say I know how to handle them. I get mad when they say that because I don't believe in "handling" anyone, but nonetheless, I have never met a borderline patient I didn't like.

Wherever my emotional disturbances originate from or what they are called, I don't really care, I just want to feel level and like I am not constantly spinning.

quote:

Originally posted by Draggers:
I am trying to get my head around why having BPD is such a bad thing and why you hate the diagnosis but are quite happy to have PTSD ELizaJ? does it matter?

I have borderline behaviours as well, yet i have the diagnosis of DTD and DID, but really couldnt care if they had labled me as BPD.honestly when you are a F'kd up as i am or i feel i am , you go past labels and worrying about having them and just get on with understanding yourself and healing.Let them have their labels and categories....cos none of it matters.its just another load of letters, with really very little meaning ,just my honest opinion .

why does the label upset me so much? because it is a source of major trauma for me - because the way i was 'treated' when i was told i had it

i was misdiagnosed 20 years ago as having BPD. that was in a time where those with it were seen as not really being unwell - it was seen as attention seeking, manipulation, lying, and desperateness to 'avoid' IMAGINED abandonment.

because every time i expressed urges to self harm, or kill myself, i was ignored - it was seen as 'attention seeking' not REAL distress; because every time i reached out for help, i was dismissed, invalidated, least it 'encourage' more 'attention seeking' behavior.

because my therapy with a T in which i had strong transference feelings for was pathologised and i was left to feel more intense shame than id even experienced at the hands of my very abusive mother. Because the therapy with that T had to be viewed by 2 other mental health professionals via a one way mirrored window, least i 'manipulate' the T and she inadvertently 'played' into my manipulative ways.

because the stigma and the so called 'treatment' of BPD by those meant to provide care for me left me severely traumatized, on top of the severe trauma i already had.

i was even denied medication for years, because BPD wasn't considered a 'real' illness that should be treated with medication - my depression after all, wasn't real - it was just me wanting attention.

that's why

it is my understanding nowadays BPD isn't seen in the same light - that distress felt by those with it is 'real' but it sure as shit was not how it was seen all those years ago.

being misdiagnosed meant i never received the support or treatment for what was really going on - PTSD. no one should have been treated the way i (and everyone else with so called BPD) was back then. and no one should be treated that way now. but to have PTSD, to be experiencing flashbacks and suicidal feelings and be told tint real, it was just attention seeking behavior, is incredibly damaging beyond words.

yes, the 'label' is important - because if it is th WRONG ONE then you don't get the treatment you need for the condition you have. the whole purpose of the drs labels is so they have a treatment plan / protocol / guide as to what works with clients with the sam condition.

and it distresses me beyond belief to have those 3 letters discussed in even a remote relationship to me and what I'm experiencing because it only triggers the trauma created by the health professionals all those years ago.

being implied i might have BPD signifies invalidation, rejection, being ignored, left, and thought of as a manipulating, attention seeking liar.

(which is NOT how i see those with BPD either, by the way)

and yes, it is my opinion - based on my experience that many who have been told they have BPD, and who have had complex trauma, don't really have BPD, but have a particular presentation of trauma within the PTSD subtext, that has not yet been properly understood by the 'experts'.

guess its another way of saying i believe in judith herdman's work and that 70% of those with 'BPD' that fit the criteria of CPTSD, have that instead, and not BPD.

I am with Draggers on the set of letters to signify what we have being rather meaningless... Since we'd act (or act out or relate or experience or etc etc) exactly the same. I'm no different the day I received my diagnosis than the day before and... I guess other people can react how they want. Telling someone I'm suicidal whether I have DDNOS, CPTSD, anorexia, major depression, anxiety or a billion damn other things I could have... Is still me telling someone I'm suicidal. Spade = spade. My actions speak, my thoughts speak. Whatever someone thinks the reason is doesn't matter as long as I can get the resources I need. Stigma sucks and there is a particular diagnosis I have stigma about as well.., as far as BPD.,, I know a few damn fine people who have it. Women in general continue to receive better treatment, as well as the LGBT community, and those with chemical dependencies... It's interesting how perspectives and treatments move over time. Back in the day women could be dropped off by their husbands at a bin and live out their days there.

GG - you're perfect as you are, no matter what alphabet soup someone gives you, or anyone's opinion on it. It sounds like you have a grasp on where some of your feelings are coming from. I too have wanted to save my therapists from me... and I don't know you well enough to know if this might be true for you... But I found staying with them or going back to them healing. Sometimes we can't go back though. I think it is possible that eventually we can beat down the evilness we feel in ourselves. My T has told me that my shame saved my life... Had I not avoided, or felt too evil and awful to exist, I'd have done things that would have hurt me (like go to my parents for support when that's not what I'd get). It's a defense mechanism... And for me it very much comes up when I feel close to someone or say something vulnerable (like you did not long ago). It's like.,. I panic... And if the other person isn't 'bad' then I must be. I called my T just today worried she hated me and could I get reassurance... And she did (sometimes she leaves me to my own devices with it). But if it's after a vulnerable time.,, she knows and I know it's shame. I hope you can still find good help and again, sounds like you are doing some good work.

quote:

Originally posted by catalyst:
Telling someone I'm suicidal whether I have DDNOS, CPTSD, anorexia, major depression, anxiety or a billion damn other things I could have... Is still me telling someone I'm suicidal. Spade = spade. My actions speak, my thoughts speak. Whatever someone thinks the reason is doesn't matter as long as I can get the resources I need.

I couldn't agree more - the issue being in my case is it did not lead to me getting any support
Or the resources I needed. If I had, it wouldn't have been a problem at all.

I do want to reiterate I do NOT have any issues or prejudice against people who have happen to have BPD. One of my former best friends did have BPD and we had a wonderful friendship. She was incredibly intelligent and our favourite thing to do was watch crime shows in our own homes but talk to each other at very advert break as to how the plot was going to pain out. I miss her and those calls (she died with medical complications due to her severe obesity)

GG - I hope you don't think I'm criticising you in any way? Or that I'm judging you in any way. What label you might or might not have had or have doesn't reduce my feeling supportive of you or wanting to help support you. I was merely expressing my hatred of that label given to ME, because of the trauma it caused me. The 'treatment' I experienced still greatly affects me 20 plus years later. How I work with my current T is impacted by what happened back then. It came again today also - I was worried she would think my dissociating in her office was 'attention seeking' and how I was so afraid she'd force me out of her office in an unsafe state, getting rid of me like a piece of garbage to be swept out.

I hope no one think I'm dissing them or being critical of anyone on here just because they might or might it have BPD or any other label. I just hope it can be UNDERSTOOD, this issue caused me a tremendous amount of distress and trauma over the years it happened to me. It's my truth; it happened. I'm glad if it doesn't still happen today or if others haven't been treated that way, because NO ONE deserves to have their very real distress dismissed, ignored, or treatment withheld from them. For me, it isn't as simple as saying 'oh well just get over it it's just a label' - that would be like telling someone who had experienced another form of trauma ''get over it it doesn't matter'

I'm glad others react differently to your behaviors and distress now than in the past, EJ.

Let's not forget GG's stopping seeing her T and what is going on for her with that right now.

Good Morning Everyone,

I apologize if my post or the content in it was triggering for anyone. I can understand that this is a "hot topic" for you ElizaJ and that the mistreatment you received was in itself very traumatic for you. When I was still in my mid teens a psychologist abruptly dropped me from treatment stating that I had yet another personality disorder (histrionic personality disorder). I guess she didn't know that personality is not fully formed until we are 18 therefore it is negligable to diagnosis someone at the age of 16 with a personality disorder. THAT has been my hot button for many many years as I was abandoned by my first T who I sought out because she was the top "expert" in my area in eating disorders for which I was seeking treatment for at the time.

I definately own to having borderline traits come roaring out in certain relationships and only with certain women that seem to trigger off those personality traits. I totally own it, but I reject the notion that it is a pervasive way of being for me. I have plenty of close intact, healthy relationships where I do not feel the need or the compulsion to act out to get my needs met, with some other women my brain is just wired to act like an ass and it seems to beyond my control. I can't even say that I act like an ass. I act like a needy, dependent, approval seeking, craving of love and attention child and I will do most anything to get that attention. I will act out by text bombing, phone calling, telling the person off, screaming, crying, withdrawing, shutting down, acting on my ED. My thinking regarding that person goes to black and white and as my frustration level mounts for not getting those needs met I freak and become very emotionally disregulated. I believe it is trauma based and I believe I do indeed act borderline in certain relationships with certain women which is something I really need to address. I don't think it is possible to do that with the woman (T) that I am having such strong emotion evoked from or tied to.

Do I in any way want to be needy, dependent, clingy, raging, spinning person.... HELL NO! Am I that kind of person in my other relationships HELL NO! It is embarrassing and confusing for me and alot of shame attached.

I understand your pain ElizaJ... alot of practitioners here in the states don't even want to deal with borderline clients because the client is viewed as manipulative, attention seeking, a liar and delusional and in my opinion discount half of what the client says as rubbish. I think it is a poorly understood personality disorder and really needs to be addressed with much more compassion. I did once ask my T if she failed to love me or be warm to me because it was contraindicated for someone with borderline personality disorder... to which I never received an answer.

I am so glad ElizaJ that you are with a T that you feel a sense of trust with and who is able to treat your true diagnosis giving you the treatment and relief you need and deserve.

Whatever I am or whatever I have, whatever the diagnosis will be.... I KNOW what thoughts and behaviors need addressing and regardless of where they stem from, they must be addressed to bring me relief. My desire is to have a healthy balanced, non attention seeking relationship with the T I just departed from. I want to work on modifying those behaviors and find the maladaptive ones unecessary in that therapuetic relationship but I can't do it with her because I can't see past my emotions with her.

With my former psychologist I have the ability to detach from my emotions, examine my motives and work on correcting the behavior. I truly respect and value her as a person and as a professional and have a strong desire practicing having a healthy relationship, alliance or collaboration with her. SHE means something to me.

It is so embarrassing to own this but I am going to own it here because I feel safe doing it and I know that everyone here values honesty and introspection because we are all in therapy or have been in therapy, but the main thing that pushed me over the edge with this T was what I did to her last week and how I felt doing it. Last week when I really thought I was dying and I was reaching out to her and she ignored me, I purposely and with the intention of adding annoyance to her day text bombed her 62 times in one day and called her and left 5 nasty messages. I did it with the intention of pissing her off and intruding in on her day because I felt like I wasn't getting the attention I needed. Though T did not admonish me for the behavior, I felt so remorseful because I do love this woman and I do not want to intentionally ever act in a way to hurt her, and though she says I didn't... it was my INTENTION! There is something clearly wrong with that kind of behavior and if I don't rein it in, I will lose her by HER choice and I cannot blame her for that. So I will take a break and work with another T to understand this. Reading back on the texts it was all shit I wanted to say to my mother. Things I was always too afraid to say because I would get my ass beat to a bloody pulp and expressing myself wouldn't matter to my mother anyway because her feelings were the only feelings that mattered and I had to guess what they were and walk around on egg shells not feeling or expressing anything to keep the peace.

I love everyone here and I am so grateful for anything anyone has to say. And I appreciate you affording me the luxary of honesty without judgement. I feel your support and I am so grateful for it. You all help me feel like I am not alone and you and the experiences you share give me hope. So thank you so so much for hearing me and responding and acknowledging my pain and struggle.

"I am trying to get my head around why having BPD is such a bad thing and why you hate the diagnosis but are quite happy to have PTSD ELizaJ?"

I agree with this, Draggers. Complex PTSD is not a recognized disorder in the DSM; Borderline Personality Disorder is.

I was diagnosed with Complex PTSD, but I know it was a kind way of saying I have BPD.

If there are so few differences between the diagnoses in terms of behaviours, why would one reject the diagnosis of BPD but accept one of Complex PTSD? It's especially hurtful to those who have been given the diagnosis of BPD by perpetuating the stigma.

I dream of a day when we can accept the label of BPD, as we do Bipolar Disorder or Complex PTSD. If the stigma is going change, it's going to have to start here.

I have started a new thread dedicated to the discussion of diagnoses and BPD so that this thread stays available to GG for support. Yellowbug, I replied to you over there. You can find it here: Discussion of Diagnoses

Thank you AG and thank you who have responded to and acknowledged my feelings and my struggle. I too acknowledge and validate all of yours. I am glad this has opened a gateway to discussion on diagnosis and the stigma and shame attached to some diagnosis especially BPD.

Regardless of diagnosis each person deserves to have their concerns and feelings heard and acknowledged and sometimes challenged, to grow. We all deserve compassion and thoughtful care and to be valued, anything less is unacceptable.

Hugs to all