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Forgiveness. Forgiveness of yourself. Forgiveness of those people who have hurt you when you were defenseless. What does it mean to you (or how do you define it) and what role does it play in your healing?

This topic is admittedly an assignment from my T since we were battling today over my not forgiving myself for things that happened when I was a child (or for my adult screw-ups either). An extension of this is that if I forgive myself then reason follows that I must forgive others as well, and I don't yet want to forgive certain people who have hurt me in the past. Although intellectually I understand there are mental health benefits to letting go of the pain, I guess I have not yet found the will to achieve it. I've also heard plenty of preaching on forgiveness from a religious standpoint, but am still rebellious. Your thoughts? Does anyone here feel they have faced and truly won this struggle?
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Hello Mad Hatter

Interesting question! Forgiveness is a concept I’ve struggled with off and on for a long time, and I can relate to your comments about despite its being a healthy thing to do you are not yet ready to forgive people who have hurt you.

I have a BIG problem with the whole idea - mainly because for me forgiving means that you see someone whom you are supposedly meant to forgive as having done something wrong to you, that you actually see them as morally/emotionally having been 'bad' to you and I can’t see that. I can’t see anyone as having intentionally set out to harm me so it tends to make me experience my anger as invalid, as something entirely of my own making and nothing to do with someone else’s ‘wrongdoing’. I also have this sense that for me to forgive is to attribute to myself some kind of moral superiority, a kind of arrogance that I could see myself as better than someone else that the term forgiving implies. I realize that this is probably not the way forgiveness actually works, but it’s how I experience it. I think if someone said to me that they forgive me for some perceived wrongdoing of mine against them, I would get very very very angry (while underneath believing that I have of course committed some moral or emotional transgression against them - usually that I haven’t mindread the other’s wants and demands well enough.)

Equally I can’t forgive myself because that would mean that I believe I’ve done something wrong against myself and while I do more or less blame myself for everything, consciously I have been fighting that idea all my life and refuse to accept that I’ve transgressed against myself - that’s the message I’ve spent a long time trying to undo (that everything is all always my fault.) To forgive myself for that makes me feel as if I have to accept that it IS actually all my fault.

I know this is not at all what other people understand by the word forgiveness, but I just don’t seem able to get what people mean without experiencing it as a form of arrogance.

I suspect I need to experience my anger as legitimate and justified first, before I can start to get my head around forgiving anyone.
Hi Madhatter,
(LOVE the new icon btw!) I have a LOT to say on this subject as it was something I wrestled with for YEARS and I have a VERY LONG story connected with it. But right now I'm off to what I think is going to be a session from hell (I've had a very long week where I've been struggling through a lot of layers of feelings and last night I had a dream that led to a breakthrough that I know I NEED to talk to my T about but it's not going to be pretty) so I am anticipating being very wiped out by 9:30 (EST) and I have a really full schedule today (gosh, this is going to be fun! Big Grin) so it may be a day or two before I get back here.

AG
Thanks for the topic, Mad Hatter. It is a big one. I don't have the answers but I do have more thoughts and questions to add to your thread...I hope you can "forgive" me (groan Roll Eyes).

I have heard it said that forgiveness isn't something I do as a favor for the person who hurt me. Rather it is something I do for myself. Forgiveness doesn't release them from the responsibility or the consequences of what they did. And it doesn't mean I lay myself open to being hurt again by that person - forgiveness doesn't mean giving up healthy boundaries. Rather, it is a kind of acceptance of whatever happened that releases me from "reliving" the pain in the form of ongoing anger and resentment and bitterness.

One good thing about that is the other person doesn't have to ask for it. They don't even have to necessarily "know" that I've forgiven them. The only way they would is if they actually asked me, or over time, by the way I'm acting (or not acting). Another good thing is that forgiveness works even in cases where I happen to be wrong about whether the other person actually intentionally did anything to hurt me. Which I never am, by the way...(insert heavy sarcasm here). Roll Eyes

I can't imagine going to someone and "bestowing" my forgiveness upon them...that would be presumptuous and weird and kind of ridiculous. In AA when we make amends in the ninth step, we go to those we've hurt and take responsibility for what we've done, and do what we can to repair the damage if at all possible. There is no mention made of the other person's part at all, even if we believe it was significant in comparison to ours. We don't do this to be self-righteous, but in order to relieve the remorse that can eventually lead to drinking. Amends are to be made whether or not the other person is expected to respond in a "positive" way. The only exception is where other people could be harmed somehow by making the amends, and those are to be discussed carefully with a sponsor first to make sure we're not just making excuses.

When people ask for "forgiveness" I wonder if what they're really asking for is mercy and/or grace. I've heard mercy defined as "not getting what I deserve" and grace as "getting something I don't deserve". I know what it's like to need both mercy and grace. But I don't see them as something to grant to others from a position of superiority. Just the opposite. It is because I know what it's like to need them that I would want to give them.

I have lots of questions on how to apply all of this.

By this definition I haven't "forgiven" my former T completely. But I really want to let it go because every time I relive it, it hurts all over again and gets in the way of the therapy I'm trying to do now. Is it possible for forgiveness to slip out of place? Or does that mean we never really forgave in the first place?

I thought I forgave my mom a long time ago. I certainly understand her better and have more compassion for her now that I am a mom. But is that really forgiveness? Or is it somewhat self-serving, because now I know how hard it is to be a mom, and to continue to be so hard on her would mean I have to be just as hard on myself? But then, I AM really hard on myself. And is it somehow unforgiving of me to go back and try to process the painful feelings I had in reaction to how she treated me? Is it possible to forgive without processing the feelings first?

If I can't really remember anyone else I need to forgive, does that mean I've forgiven them? I would like to think so. Ugh....

I'm really looking forward to hearing other perspectives on this. Thanks for bringing up the topic, MH. Smiler

SG
Disclaimer: This is very much written from the perspective of my world view as a Christian and I understand that not everyone reading will agree with all the values that I discuss. But in order to explain what happened I have to refer to those beliefs and how they affected me. All I ask is that you accept that they were my values so this was how I saw it. I think the larger principles about forgiveness translate pretty well across other world views.

Back in 2000, I was still struggling with forgiveness. I had done a lot of trauma work which had finally allowed me to get to my anger (ok, rage). As hard as I was working I couldn’t let go and forgive (I have a strong belief that forgiveness is a necessary thing, although now I believe that it can take a lot of time depending on the severity of wrongdoing, and in some ways is an on going process for the rest of your life.) My husband and I had just taken a really great Sunday school class at our church (best we ever took actually) Growing Kids God’s Way. There was one section that addressed the commandment "Honor thy father and mother." The couple teaching the course (it was a video tape series) talked about how since it was a commandment, everyone was called to obey it. But depending on how we raised our children, we could rob them of the joy of obeying that command. That honoring your mother or father can be a joyful, easy thing to do or it can become an onerous duty. When I heard that, something in me was struck like a bell "that’s it!! I’ve been robbed of the joy of honoring my parents." But along with it came the deep sense that in order to be faithful to the call of God on my life, I needed to do just that, honor my mother and father, no matter how impossible it looked from where I was sitting. I didn’t believe that God would give me a commandment and not the resources to obey it (ok, I did struggle with the feeling He was trusting me too much. Smiler )

So now I was struggling with what it meant to honor my father, especially as I hadn’t seen him or communicated with him since the age of 11 (I was now 39). My older sister Sue, who has also done significant work in therapy, is my closet family member. She had occasionally over the years been in touch with my father, he would surface occasionally. I had always asked her not to give my father any specific information about me that would allow him to locate me including my married name (and this was before I even remembered the sexual abuse. As a matter of fact, when I did remember the abuse the first time and told my sister, she told me she has always wondered why I went into such a panic when she heard from dad.) We had also stayed in touch with one aunt from my father’s side of the family. It had been a number of years since my sister had heard from my dad when she got a call from my Aunt. My father had had a major stroke seven years before and lost some mobility and was now in the hospital with congestive heart failure (he was only 67 but had been an alcholic since the age of 16 and it had taken its toll on his health. Although frankly, I have no idea how his liver held out that long. He was in a hospital in Charleston, SC (about a 15 hour drive) and had only days to live. No one from the family was going (he was estranged from everyone) but she thought we should know.
My sister holds very different spiritual beliefs from what I do, but that’s never gotten in the way for us (or our politics which are also polar opposites). She called me and told me that she felt very strongly that she needed to go see Dad before she died and she knew she was asking a lot (my sister had no memories of sexual abuse from my father, just his raging) and she didn’t expect me to see him but she really wanted me to go with her. She didn’t want to go alone, but she also said she felt very strongly that I should go with her. I prayed about it and felt very led to go, especially knowing this was the last chance I would ever have to see my dad.

My sister and I met at my MIL (which was about five hours from both of our homes) and my MIL took my two children for me so my sister and I could drive down. Our original plan was that we would drive down in one day, get a hotel and then head to the hospital in the morning. My sister had spoken to my father at the hospital and was in touch with one of the nurses. On the way down, we got a call from the nurse who told us to come straight to the hospital as he didn’t have much time left. Partway down we stopped for dinner and realized that we both felt really discouraged and depressed and like we couldn’t go on. Again, though being from very different faith backgrounds, we both felt like it was a spiritual attack. I knew I had many dear friends praying for me, and we pushed on through. It was almost ten o’clock that night (we had been on the road since 6 AM) and we were exhausted, dirty and disheveled but headed for the hospital.

I was re-reading the book "Wounded Heart" by Dan Allender which was an amazing book about healing from incest and had it with me so I was reading it in the car when my sister was driving. I hit the chapter about forgiveness. Now the major thing that bothered me about forgiveness, especially with my dad was that he had never admitted to any wrongdoing or changed in any way and I believed that forgiving him would mean having an active relationship and no way was I going anywhere near that man. Now I had read the book before, several years earlier, but somehow the chapter on forgiveness went right over my head. The author defined forgiveness as letting go of your right to revenge for the wrongdoing done to you. I was like "wow" forgiving wasn’t about acting like nothing had happened or you hadn’t been injured. It was just saying I won’t retaliate, I’m going to let God handle what should be done. I realized I could live with that. But the really important part was that the author made VERY clear that while letting go of our right to revenge was something we could do on our own, restoration of relationship was acutely dependent on the other person’s repentance of their behavior; that they took responsibility for their behavior and the need to change it. God does NOT require us to continue in relationship with someone who is abusing us. Actually its not a loving act to allow someone to continue to abuse you, because they’re committing wrongdoing. I felt like I had been hit with a bolt of lightning; this was an understanding of forgiveness I could accept and live with. I knew it would be hard enough to let go of my right of revenge but at least it didn’t mean I needed to have a relationship.

We were both kind of shocked to find that as we got closer, the level of fear kept rising until about an hour out it hit terror. We can laugh about it now, but I was driving (white knuckled but all those times of driving absolutely terrified to therapy were finally coming in handy. I basically shut EVERYTHING down, except the cognitive abilities involving operating a car. My sister was so upset, that although I was actually driving five miles an hour under the speed limit, she was literally screaming at me that I was driving too fast and needed to slow down for the last half an hour. We pulled up in the hospital parking lot and when we got out of the car, I literally couldn’t stand up from the fear. My knees buckled and I collapsed against the car with my arm across the door the only thing holding me up. My sister told me that I didn’t have to go in, but I really felt like I needed to and I really didn’t want to leave her to face this alone. I know it’s going to sound a little crazy but went I went to walk I felt like I was being held up. I really believe in that moment that God gave me the strength to do what I needed to do because I was trying to be obedient to what he asked of me. So we headed into the hospital.

We took the elevator up to the floor my dad was on and again, I know this sounds weird, but as soon as the elevator door opened, I knew exactly where my dad’s room was. We headed towards his door and were met by the nurse on duty (may I say now that the staff at the hospital were amazing from beginning to end and very sensitive about our situation.) We were TOTALLY shocked when the nurse told us that dad was running a 103.7 fever, had lost consciousness and probably would not regain it. Which was like "what?!?? I feel like I’m supposed to come down here and I won’t even get to talk to him, what’s the point, where’s the closure in that?"

We headed for his room. I had wondered for so many years how I was going to feel when I reached this moment and I honestly didn’t know what to expect. We walked through the door and the first feeling was shock. We both remembered my father as very large, strong, frightening figure and he was old and withered (way beyond his age) and obviously a threat to no one. This was the first very important thing I was sent to learn: I was no longer powerless, nor was my father still all-powerful. I am not proud of the next thing I felt but I want to be honest. I looked on my dying withered father for the first time in 28 years and felt the deepest, blackest, wave of pure hatred roll over me. I literally could have struck him as he lay there in a coma. This obviously wasn’t going to be a warm fuzzy of a reunion. The feeling was so strong that I went to the waiting room to calm down and while I sat there I started praying. The realization hit me of just how very heavy that hatred was and just how long I had been carrying it. And I realized I didn’t have to and I remember just praying "God I don’t want to carry it anymore, hes’ your problem, you judge him, I’m going to give up my right to do anything to him."(Side note: lest this sound like some quick and easy thing, there were YEARS of hard work that led up to that moment and actually allowed me to let go. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do letting go of that hatred.) At that moment, it actually physically felt like a huge weight had been lifted.

A strong component of my work in therapy had centered around realizing that although I was very angry with my father and could even hate him, I still desperately wanted to know that he loved me. Which was a difficult realization as I did not want to want anything from someone who had treated me that way. But I could not get away from the fact that this man was my father and important to who I was in ways I could not escape.

I went back into the room where my sister still was and my father’s breathing was very agitated and even unconscious he seemed to be thrashing around. At that moment, in the quiet, I heard "honor thy father" and I realized that I needed to make the forgiveness I had just experienced tangible. I hadn’t touched my dad yet, nor frankly, did I want to. So I walked up to the bed and touched his arm (eerily enough, without knowing, I had actually chosen the only arm with feeling, the other had been left paralyzed by the stroke seven years early.) With my hand on his arm, I leaned over him and said "dad, I forgive you." To both my sister and I’s shock, he immediately calmed down. Eventually we realized there wasn’t much more to be done, so we went and found a hotel room, took a hot shower and got some sleep. We headed back to the hospital first thing the next morning.

My father had been together for a number of years with a woman whom I’ll call Jane, who was another alcoholic. They were married at this point. She was with my dad the last time I had seen him and was not the nicest person. OK she bordered on cruel. When we walked into the room, she was there, and obviously distraught. So my sister and I took the high road, and asked if there was anything we could do. My father and his wife had been living off of a small stipend from a trust fund my (quite wealthy) trust fund my grandparents had set up on their death. He could not draw on the principle (that was to be split between my three siblings and I at his death) but received a monthly support check from the interest. So when he died, Jane was going to be left virtually penniless. So the one thing she told us was that she could not afford to pay for a funeral. (OK very ironic moment, because our other sister, who emphatically did NOT want to see dad before he died, had informed us in no uncertain terms that she was NOT paying for the funeral. There’s a fair amount of money on my dad’s side and our trust fund was a fraction of what went to my dad’s siblings on his parents’ death but my father had so estranged everyone that his family had washed their hands of him years earlier.) OK this is where it really started to get weird (did I mention this is a REALLY long story, and I’m even leaving some stuff out!). About a half an hour later, my dad died. Jane and my sister were talking and didn’t notice, but I was looking straight at him, and actually saw the moment of his death. Which was the second reason I was there. Even with having been able to forgive him, the world became a safer place when I saw him pass from it. I have breathed easier ever since.

We met with the hospital liason and got the name of the local Catholic funeral home (my father was a devout Catholic his whole life, I know I know but trust me he really was) and my sister and I called the funeral director. Now eventually my sister was going to get the money from the trust fund (which ended up being a suprising $40,000 each) but did not have any money to put towards the funeral then. So we agreed that I would pay for the whole thing, but when the money came through, she would reimburse me for half the expenses. So I called my husband, who is an incredibly wonderful man, and we discussed the whole thing and he told me if it’s $5000 or less just put it on the credit card, but if it’s over that call me back because we’re going to have to figure out where to get the money from.

My sister called the funeral director and explained that there was not a lot of money, we wanted basic, but we did want a decent burial. "Honor thy father" was now a constant refrain in my head. We met with the funeral director and the one request my father had made was that he be buried and not cremated which meant that we had to buy a funeral plot. When the funeral director asked how many death certificates we needed when we were planning the funeral, I told him that my other sister probably wanted to wall paper with them. Just to let you know what a nice guy he was, when my sister screamed in horror that I said that, he told us it wasn’t close to the worst thing he’d ever heard, and went on to tell us some REALLY funny stories.) While we were meeting with him and setting up the plans, he mentioned that he personally knew the priest who had taken the my father’s last confession (hours before he became unconscious) and did we want to talk to him. We said no and continued. He offered again and we said no. We finished all the plans and the total came to, are you ready? $4,997. As I signed the receipt for the charges, I knew a sense of satisfaction that I was being obedient to the call of God, that I had chosen to honor my father by making sure he had a proper burial, but what was the point? (Hey, I’m as selfish as the next girl! Why had God dragged me all the way down there if there was nothing in it for me?). As I pushed the paper over, the funeral director picked up his telephone, dialed and without asking, handed me the phone. It was the priest who had taken his last confession. In the moment of my obedience, God showed me his provision. The priest said to me that it was obvious that my father, while being a very intelligent charismatic man, had been plagued by chemical and spiritual demons his whole life, that he had never overcome. That he loved me very much and was so sorry for how he had hurt me (I had recovered the memories of the abuse in my 30s and this was the confirmation I thought I would never get). It was in that moment that I realized for all the hatred and rage, what I really really had still wanted to know was that my father loved me. I burst out into tears and sobbed on the phone.
My feelings were so complex that I was incredibly grateful that God had the job of judging my father because I didn’t feel capable. He was living in poverty and squalor deserted by everyone he had ever loved but his dysfunctional alcoholic wife. What my father had done to himself, what he lost was so much worse than any revenge I could ever have come up with. And then I was able to realize that I hoped God forgave him so that I could meet my father in heaven and finally have the loving relationship I had always wanted with him.

That didn’t completely take care of the forgiveness stuff btw. As I have uncovered more memories and experienced new rages, I’ve had to let go time and again. But I have never lost the compassion and insight God gave me on that trip. My father choose acts of evil in order to deal with his problems, acts that I by the grace of God have never chosen for myself but they were human acts of evil and not beyond redemption. I was so very grateful to realize that at the end of the day my desire was for his redemption and not his damnation. I like being that person better. BUT, and I so sincerely mean this, I could not have reached that point without a LOT of help from God and I completely understand someone NOT being able to go there. Forgiveness of these types of wrongs is difficult beyond comprehension and not a choice I would ever presume to make for someone.

If you’ve made it this far, thank you so much for reading this. I haven’t really thought about this in a while and it was good for me to revisit it. Thanks for asking the question, MH.

AG
quote:
Originally posted by Lamplighter:
I suspect I need to experience my anger as legitimate and justified first, before I can start to get my head around forgiving anyone.


This is one area I am still trying to understand. Doesn't the concept of forgiveness imply that anger is wrong? To me, forgiving my abusers equals accepting invalidation of my pain - as if I am the one in the wrong for feeling the pain.

quote:
Originally posted by mlc:
I find it hard to forgive someone who doesn't ask for forgiveness.


I agree. I think it is especially hard when you know that person would hurt you all over again if given the chance. But even if they just act like what they did didn't matter, it's like adding insult to injury. Multiply such an incident hundreds of times (such as in chronic child abuse) and a pretty thick wall gets built up in order to survive.

quote:
Originally posted by strummergirl:
forgiveness doesn't mean giving up healthy boundaries. Rather, it is a kind of acceptance of whatever happened that releases me from "reliving" the pain in the form of ongoing anger and resentment and bitterness.


I like this description of forgiveness, and I see how it is more of a gift to myself than to the persons whom I would be forgiving. I recognize on some level that remaining bitter sort of gives my abusers more power over me. So I don't know why I would want to hold onto the resentment, but I also don't know how to make my emotional side listen to logic.

quote:
Originally posted by strummergirl:
Is it possible to forgive without processing the feelings first?


I am glad you brought this up. I think I am sort of doing this dance between feeling pain, feeling anger, and denial of any feelings, because I am not willing to experience anything fully. What does it mean to process the feelings? Is it the same thing as grieving? Does it mean we get to have permission to be angry about our loss? Or just be sad? And for how long is the process justified before you call it being unforgiving?

Thank you, SG, for that link on the Psychology of Forgiveness. It gave me a lot to think about. Honestly, I don't think I'm ready for all of it, but I printed it off and plan to take it into session tomorrow.

AG & MTF, I look forward to your comments when you find more time to share them!
AG, I missed your amazing post somehow! I think I just forgot to refresh my screen since I've had this thread pulled up all day. Thank you so much for telling your own personal (and quite moving) story. I had only read bits and pieces of it before. I am humbled by what you have been through and how you have risen above it.

I can see that you showed your trust in God even before you had forgiven your father. Whereas I am being rebelliousness right now (at least in heart) when it comes to my faith. Maybe I am going to have to sort that out before I can accomplish the forgiveness thing. I do think it is WAY cool that you and your sister were guided to push through your journey and arrive in time to have those brief interactions with your father before he died - that you were rewarded for your courage.

quote:
Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
A strong component of my work in therapy had centered around realizing that although I was very angry with my father and could even hate him, I still desperately wanted to know that he loved me. Which was a difficult realization as I did not want to want anything from someone who had treated me that way. But I could not get away from the fact that this man was my father and important to who I was in ways I could not escape.


I am glad you included this paragraph. I sometimes get so angry with myself for not escaping the part of me that STILL CARES about being important or loved as a child. I don't want to WANT that, because of the power it has over me. What if someone's answer to this struggle is NO, that they never were loved by their parent(s), or that NO, their abuser(s) never acknowledged any remorse? AG, do you know if you could have been able to forgive your father without what you learned from the priest? I think it is interesting that you only received this information AFTER you had honored your father with the funeral arrangements. To me, it kinda seems like you were blessed with it only after you were tested.

quote:
Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
My father choose acts of evil in order to deal with his problems, acts that I by the grace of God have never chosen for myself but they were human acts of evil and not beyond redemption. I was so very grateful to realize that at the end of the day my desire was for his redemption and not his damnation.


I feel you have such an incredible heart and soul, AG, and maybe all this nightmare and anguish you have lived through has played a role in shaping who you are, like a refiner's fire.

I told my T once in a particularly difficult moment that I felt like God just threw me away because he didn't intervene in my childhood when He knew very well what I was facing. Her reply was to ask me to think about my own children, the weakest one and the strongest one, and think about which one I would choose, if I had to choose, to send into a really bad situation. She said God chooses the strong ones because they have a better chance of coming out on top in the end, but that Jesus weeps for every child's pain. It is a message that I would like to believe. I'm working on it.
Hi All,
Thank you so much for your reaction to my story, it's very affirming for me to get that kind of feedback.

quote:
AG, do you know if you could have been able to forgive your father without what you learned from the priest?


MH,this is a good question. I did let go of the hatred BEFORE I talked to the priest, but as I mentioned forgiveness for me is an ongoing process (more on that later) in that as I have recovered more memories, there has been more to forgive and that forgiveness has not always come easily. Having that acknowledgement of the damage done, no matter how oblique(obviously, the confidentiality of the confessional didn't allow the priest to be specific) has to have made some difference to me and how I feel about it. I know people, some of them posting, who have experienced what I would consider much worse abuse that I have (make no mistake, what happened to me was pretty bad and nothing to shrug off, it's taken me a long time to accept that) and I know how incredibly difficult it was and how long it took to reach the beginning of being able to forgive. So I find it totally understandable and would not consider an inability to forgive a failing. There is an author Jeanne Safer, who actually wrote a book discussing whether forgiveness is necessary or not, which I found to be a fascinating read when I was struggling with it. The book is Forgiving & Not Forgiving: A New Approach to Resolving Intimate Betrayal. (I really like the author, she actually interviewed my sister and I for another book she wrote and she was a very lovely, warm, empathetic woman. She tends to write on subjects that are generally overlooked.)

quote:
I told my T once in a particularly difficult moment that I felt like God just threw me away because he didn't intervene in my childhood when He knew very well what I was facing.


MH, I so totally understand that and have expressed very similar feelings on a number of occasions. I also want to correct a possible impression you came away with, I am by NO means a model Christian, I can really struggle with my faith and rebelliousness and there's a lot in my life that shouldn't be emulated. It speaks to God's amazing unwarranted grace that He has been able to do so much in my life.

And I truly do believe that it is especially difficult for someone who experienced abuse as a child to be able to believe in a loving God, you possess so much evidence to the contrary that sometimes it seems like an insane thing to do. If I am honest, sometimes my belief has faltered and at other times it has been a blind stubborn faith because I didn't want to live in a world in which it wasn't true. I don't know if you've ever read it, but I found C.S Lewis' The Problem of Pain really helped me to work through the issue.

I know a HUGE breakthrough for me was when my T, based on a poem I wrote, identified my belief that pain was an integral part of love, only to teach me that pain occurs in every life, but love is the answer to that pain. That also describes who I believe God to be. He answers pain with love.

quote:
MH, anger is not wrong to feel. It's what you do with that anger that could be wrong. We're expected to bridle our passions (and I believe that includes our anger), but even Christ felt anger. Your pain will never be invalidated by anyone. It is real. No one is asking you to give up the fact that you have experienced pain in being abused. But you have to decide if you are going to let go of that anger and the hard feelings and resentment and allow yourself to experience the freedom of letting it go, or if you want to remain in bondage to the anger and the pain. What do you choose to do with it? It is HARD HARD STUFF!!! Allowing the atonement to work in your life is not easy, but it IS worth it. I can promise you that.


MTF, I really appreciated what you said about anger and it made me realize that I had meant to address anger and forgot (I know! with a post that long you would think I had covered everything. Big Grin) Anger, especially in relationship to the abuse, has always been a very difficult emotion for me. Anger in my experience ALWAYS led to violence, so much so that my T actually had to explain to me the difference between anger and violence. (Essentially thinking about bashing someone in the head with a heavy object is anger, actually doing it is violence.) I was terrified of allowing myself to feel anger because it felt like a straight, very short path from anger to becoming my father. NOT a place I wanted to go. So I worked very hard for a very long time to avoid my anger.

And herein is something that I believe trips up a lot of people with forgiveness. We "rush" to the forgiveness part so we can skip over and not experience our anger. But the problem is that unexperienced anger still seethes below the surface marring whatever silicrum of forgiveness we try to force ourselves to feel. The truth is that anger is a valuable emotion, one that signals to us that something wrong is happening, it is an energy that can spur us to right wrongs and change things for the better (think of the abolition of slavery or defeating the Nazi's for instance.) Anger in and of itself not bad. And the truth is, that for a victim of abuse, anger is the correct response. A grave injustice was perpetrated upon your person and anger just makes sense. But as MTF said, what's important is what you do with it. For me, once I could start recognizing the anger, I would often use that energy to reject the lies I had learned that I was angry about. I used my anger to push them away and deny them.

So it is possible, and I believe especially easy in the Christian faith as it is widely practiced today, to use the "oh I need to forgive" as a defense to try and bypass facing and acknowledging our anger. So don't be in a rush to get to the forgiveness part. You're anger deserves to be heard and acknowledged. It isn't until you have experienced the depth of the injury and your responses to it that you can really forgive. That is why forgiveness is an ongoing task for me. As I've dug up more memories and finally experienced all my feelings around them, I then have to again choose to forgive. But sometimes that process is long and difficult.

And for abuse victims, who are so often indoctrinated in the belief that they're feelings are not to be listened to or valued, I can guarentee that your energy should be concentrated on hearing your anger and fear and grief BEFORE you focus on forgiving the injury. Listen to yourself first, so you know what it is that you need to forgive.

quote:
To me, forgiving my abusers equals accepting invalidation of my pain - as if I am the one in the wrong for feeling the pain.


MH,if I felt this way (and at one time I did) I would NEVER forgive. It would be one more time in a long chain in which I was told to deny reality and deny who I really am because that abuse is part of who I am. That's what I found so comforting about that model of forgiveness. It allows you to acknowledge the wrong that was done, and that the wrong deserves both judgement and punishment, it's just that you pass your right (and notice I said "right" you really are owed something because of what happened to you) over to God trusting that He will see justice done. And I know for me, when I added all the pieces of my father up (and you were right to notice that a significant part was getting that message from beyond the grave) it was so incredibly complex and my knowledge of my human shortcomings and blindspots being involved, made up what was an impossible tangle for me to unravel. So I passed that to God knowing that He can and does make sense of it. So I was not giving up on justice being done, I was just accepting that I might not be able to discern what justice looked like in this situation. I hope that makes sense.

AG
Hi BB,
I'm not offended and I agree with you that if we are really living out our faith it spills into all areas of our life. The "I know, I know" was intended by me to convey that I knew it sounded weird for someone like my father to take things like a last confession seriously considering how he lived his life. At the same time, I also realize that no matter how far he was from having a "change of heart" I think he took the truths seriously, that part of what tortured my father was his keen awareness of just how much he had failed to live in any way in line with the values he claimed to believe. I guess I would say that his faith was strong enough for him to fear damnation but not strong enough to change him. Of course, not having seen him for 28 years, I really am just guessing at the place of the church in his life.

So I totally get where you're coming from. On the other hand, whereas I haven't come close to doing some of the stuff my father did, I am keenly aware of how often I fall short of what I should be and how much I stand in need of grace. We all fall short and no one reaches God on their own, so although I may form an opinion of someone else's faith based on the way they live their life (I am human after all Big Grin) , I try to remain conscious that I don't know the whole story and only God knows enough to judge someone's heart. I can surmise, but not be certain.

Please understand that I'm not advocating that saying you believe something and not letting that shape your behavior is a GOOD thing. I'm just aware that as much as I want what I believe to shape how I behave, I, like Paul, often do what I do not want to do and do not do what I want to.

And I loved what your T said about someone apologizing only to serve their own needs. I think she provided an excellent barometer for discerning that by talking about the anger when they're not forgiven. She's right, a truly repentant person understands the need to endure the consequences of their actions for as long as is needed by the wronged person.

AG
I really appreciate everyone's participation in this thread. And thank you, DF, for sharing your honest feelings.

I, too, want to be selfish right now but am struggling with giving myself permission. I AM angry, but tell myself I shouldn't be anymore, but I can't lie to myself so I just feel guilty over feeling angry, and round and round I go.

My T says anger is a secondary emotion, that there is always something lying underneath it, such as sadness, hopelessness, fear, shame, or guilt. But I don't usually recognize those primary emotions; I just feel the anger. I guess because anger feels more powerful and not so vulnerable.

My next therapy assignment related to forgiveness is to write a letter to my father (one that he will never see) in which I express my sadness for my pain and loss. I haven't started writing yet because all I can think to express is anger, and I don't think that's what my T wants.
quote:
But i wonder how long you had allowed yourself to feel the injustices and anger and hurt before you forgave your father?


((((Dragonfly)))) I hear your rage and pain about what happened to you and I think you deserve to feel every bit of it. What was done to you was evil and deserving of anger. And you deserved so much better including not having your personhood and you're needs ignored. I hear the cry of your heart and I believe that God does too. I am so glad that you were willing to post both your beliefs and your feelings about what happened to you; both deserve to be heard and treated with respect. Please know that I am sorry for what you've endured and the pain its caused.

And I did mention it in some of my posts but I want to re-emphasize that I believe it is crucial that we allow ourselves to feel and express ALL of the emotions about what happened to us. That's why I said earlier that I would never presume to tell someone else they had to forgive.

And you are absolutely right, I had spent years working on this stuff before my father's death (I'm really sorry if I failed to convey this.) I had been in therapy at that point for about 11 of the last 14 years, and had been working on recovering the memories of the sexual abuse for around six years. And there was NO forgiveness during all that time, often there wasn't even a desire to forgive. There were times when I thought I had forgiven but it turned out to be me using "I have to forgive" as a defense so that I would not have to face those painful feelings. But even with all that work, it was a very close thing. And I meant what I said, I really believe it was God's grace that allowed me to cover the last distance.

And that wasn't the end of the story either. As I have recovered more memories or finally allowed feelings to surface, I've once again had to work through this. I had one memory I recovered about a year ago about my father telling me that I was so ugly that no one else would ever want me so that I would stay close to him and be handy to abuse. My reaction when I made the connection and remembered was to scream "damn him to Hell" so as you can see I'm still a work in progress. You can only forgive those wrongs you're aware of. One of the problems with sharing a story like that is that in order to convey what happened and make sense of it, it all comes out sounding so much neater and clearer than it really was. I have had more than my share of bitter moments and YEARS of struggling about forgiveness.

You are doing NOTHING wrong in having all these feelings and I respect you for doing the hard work of healing. And you have definitely not offended me. Honestly, I usually don't speak so much about my religious beliefs because I'm very aware that people come from very different backgrounds (there was a time on the boards when, trust me, Christians were a definite minority Big Grin ) and we're here to give and receive support. We do not need to agree on everything to do that. I also know that for a lot of people religion was used as a justification for abuse and can be a difficult topic. Not to mention that our parents, behavior forms our first concept of who God is. I struggled for decades with trusting God because I believed in a God who was made in my dad's image. So I usually don't talk about it too much because I would never want this forum to feel like an unsafe place for the people who post here. I just didn't know how to tell this story without talking about my faith. If I've bothered anyone or made them uncomfortable, please forgive me. That was definitely not my intention.

AG
Dragonfly, I'm sorry. (Couldn't resist!) Big Grin

OK OK I'll behave! BTW I didn't see you raging at us at all, I saw your anger being directed against what happened to you and I think that 's a good thing. And I agree that's it really good that people be able to express their thoughts and feelings for whatever they are. I share your dislike of the the secrets and lies and denials. I remember once my T didn't answer an email of mine for three days in which I had asked for reassurance so I had gone into full freak out overdrive and called him. So when he returned my call, the first thing I said was "did you get my email" and he told me, get this, "I might have read your email, I don't remember." I was so pissed I practically hung up on him then called him back in an hour totally melted down about the relationship not being real and me being abandoned. We discussed the whole thing the next session and one of the things my T said was that in his younger years, he would have been tempted to lie, or at least to hedge a lot more about what had happened but he knew it was important to be truthful. I told him that I appreciated that, there had been enough lies and being told reality wasn't reality when I was growing up, that I would rather be honestly hurt by him, then have him lie to me, so that I could always trust what he said. So I really understand your feeling.

But the flip side is knowing that we're all communicating only through the use of words and having never met don't even have a memory of tone of voice, or style. So much information gets lost by not having the non-verbal channels that I tend to be extra careful and err on the side of being TOO careful.

BB, you haven't even been on the same continent with offending me. I'm actually very comfortable with what I believe and why I believe so I do not find other people talking about their beliefs to be at all threatening. I actually enjoy because I can often learn from seeing things from other people's points of view. And may I agree with Dragonfly, you are much more articulate then you give yourself credit for.

So we're all good. And I'm glad we're discussing the topic, as it's a difficult one and one that I think most, if not all, people really have to struggle with.

AG

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