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This message has been edited. Last edited by: blackbird,

BB
Thank you for your honesty and explanations - it seemed quite a logical sequence to me

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a long and confusing (for me) story?

maybe we understand and think a little like you because we've all been similarly muddled for various reasons
For me, what seems to shine through is the sense of everything slowly falling into place over time. That your T has learnt to meet your needs by maybe changing the way he thinks and interacts with you; that he has realised that there is perhaps a bit of you that he cannot meet completely, but has wisely suggested a spiritual director to meet that need. And it seems to work for all of you. The spiritual director sound an amazing guy too...

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after meeting with this priest for 3 times, I learned so much and can honestly say that I now want to love myself, I see myself in a different light, with compassion-

BB, that's so wonderful to hear, That must feel good and such an important step towards healing. We have such a warped sense of our own failings I know, and his talk of

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a very believable but tangled up lie about myself in my mind for many long years and kept me so down.

resonated with me. We know that a lot of what we feel so negatively about ourselves is a lie, but it feels so entrenched and tangled doesn't it? But now you want to learn to love yourself and dispel the lies that don't deserve maybe to be there. So no wonder you are(allbeit cautiously) feeling brighter and stronger, you are being supported and understood.

It's ok to let yourself feel cared for by him, by him caring he will allow you to gain confidence to carry on with all that difficult work of staying with emotions and not pushing them away. (starfish buries her head in the sand at the mere thought of staying with any difficult emotion ) So it IS imperative, I agree, that you trust him and it feels like very slowly you are.

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Will I ever "grow up" or am I stuck being like this?

I don't think we stay stuck for long if we want to change. But just sometimes the process seems to take a heck of a lot longer than we want it too. Perhaps enjoy being where you are, feeling in a good place for now, and trusting the process and your T and SD to carry you on when you need to...

starfish

Oh no, BB, I was just coming by to respond to this very post!! Guess I pondered it too long....

I was so pleased and excited to read about your new SD and the difference he's making for you. These authority figures, parental figures, I need them too. It's only in the last few years that I've let myself really draw close to them.

It is still a roller coaster but has eased somewhat for me - I'm better these days at accepting my need, the power of it, at identifying and communicating the 'want' part of the need (I mean, the part of the need that another person can actually fulfill, as distinct from the gaping black hole), and at accepting and feeling the love that comes to me.

These relationships are an exquisite part of my life, and although I'm not religious they feel very spiritual. I hope to never be without them. I still get thrown on a weekly basis, go through these 'cycles' of feeling treasured and held and valuable, and cold/worthless/abandoned/unable to function. Less like a cycle and more like a fluorescent light flickering on and off. I can kinda contain those feelings and function around them. But I don't think I will ever not need those kinds of people in my life.

Hmm, now I don't know how relevant what I'm saying is to what you originally wrote about, but I remember you wrote you couldn't give up on your T. Totally understand that. Take care.

J

Oh BB, I'm so sorry - please hang in there, and yes, get that finger away from the delete button! You are so valuable here, we need your posts. Remember how much you learn from other people here, when they write about their highs and their lows too? When they struggle and when they offer their support? That is you for us. There's so much in your story I relate to, I'd hate to see that story disappearing!

I've been slow to respond to a couple of your posts lately - this one and the one about being in the car while moving (hope that is still up there) - but they have really struck me, it's just I haven't quite had words for what I wanted to say. I know it's hard, but please try to imagine that your words are valuable for others, because it's true.

(((((((((BB))))))))))

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I just get in this place where I become aware of what I need help with and it is very intense awareness...but then if I start to think about it too much and prioritize it or write it all down so that I can be organized about the session and get what I need from it...it's almost like it disappears! It is weird and very frustrating. Does anyone reading have any idea what this is? Is it some psychological problem, developmental problem, or a defense mechanism? I always feel like if something, some problem or whatever can have a name and a definition put on it, then I will be able to understand it, otherwise I'm in no-man's land.
BB

Wow. I get this so much. While I can very clearly see that you are not to blame for this, and that it is likely some kind of automatic coping/defense mechanism or response, I find I blame myself too, as this happens to me constantly. I too assume I am too "dumb as a post" to decipher and/or articulate my thoughts/feelings.

I have thought in the past it might be a combination of minimizing (like nothing feels real enough or significant enough) and also so often at least for me the clarity happens in a feeling that does not necessarily come with words.

The only thing I have found that sometimes helps is to make sure I try to write everything I can get out in as much detail as I can - even pictures that come to mind - in the moment I am feeling it. Sadly even then though, I go back and can't figure it out much of the time. I hear your frustration!

*****sigh*****

Looking forward to reading others' responses.

Hello there Blackbird

I’m sorry you deleted your post but I can understand how it might have made you feel having it out there.

I SO get what you are talking about when you say

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I just get in this place where I become aware of what I need help with and it is very intense awareness...but then if I start to think about it too much and prioritize it or write it all down so that I can be organized about the session and get what I need from it...it's almost like it disappears!

I get this all the time - a really clear intense intuitive understanding of what’s going on in me - but the minute I start to put it into words and attempt to explain it (even to myself) it literally vanishes. I’m left with a handful of words that I remember having understood, but the actual understanding has disappeared. Extremely frustrating! Sometimes I can hold onto the understanding for a few days and that makes it even more frustrating (and makes me feel utterly hopeless) when eventually it does disappear and I’m left with the sense of nothing changing and no idea of where to go next. Especially if I’ve talked about it to T and he assumes I’ve still got the understanding.

I also so much relate to the very terrifying sense of its all being ‘something wrong’ without being able to pinpoint or know what that thing wrong is. I always hope therapists can get to understand it and then tell ME what the ‘problem’ is and give me a way to fix it

And I very much understand the feeling of not wanting to waste an expensive hour, especially when you have so long to wait between sessions - so the pressure to get stuff out there and get some sort of recognizable ‘result’ is really on.

Also that in the end all blame and responsibility ends up back on my head - I relate to that too! Being unable to sort stuff out my default setting is ‘it’s all my bloody fault, AS USUAL’. That’s what I’m addressing all the time - because somewhere inside me I just know that NO it is NOT my fault, everything cannot always be my fault - some kind of error in there that I keep looking for…

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Now I just want to go with the feelings of the moment, maybe that will help me open up

Snap! I just wrote a thread about exactly that. It’s what I started therapy to do, and for some reason have wittered away the last seven months doing anything but. The trouble is, getting in touch with feelings in the moment seems to me to open up pathways that allow ALL feelings lurking away back there to emerge and that’s where I use my rationalizing to keep them under control and oh great they then decide to go back into their box, a bit like, huh well if you don’t want us around we’ll go away and hide, sod you. And I’m left feeling neutral and disconnected and wondering what the hell is going on.

Hm rereading that I see I haven’t come up with anything remotely useful to you, just wanted you to know I share so many of the same feelings and thoughts and worries you talk about.

But I also think you’re doing ok BB - it sounds like your P is becoming more attuned to you and that he is going to be able to help you. Just hang in there and try not to let it all spin you out in between sessions (that’s rich coming from me, who has to pick over every nuance of every word in order to make sense of everything, unsuccessfully I might add!)

Hi BB,

Middle of the night here so I won't write long. I was just really struck reading this by how much it sounds like that little girl stuck in the car without enough room or care - "crushed", "stuck", "small", "dependent", "under there", and even "left behind", the other danger in that awful situation.

I hope it's not too presumptuous or painful for me to suggest this connection. If it is a connection for you maybe that could be useful to think about and explore.

I love what you say about the blue popsicle stick, and think your insight there - how powerful it is to have the needs actually heard and accepted - is a huge one. I hope that you can move towards giving yourself that listening and acceptance and *room*.

J

((((BB)))) I'm so sorry you are in such pain. Your post just breaks my heart. You need to know that the feeling of not being there or feeling invisible to your parents/caregivers is neglect and that kind of neglect can be traumatizing for a young child. If your parents treated you like you were not there then there was no opportunity for you to develop a healthy attachment to them. Have you read anything on attachment theory? I recommend David Wallin's book but others have also written on attachment and how it affects us throughout our lives.

If as a child you were ignored then you were never taught things and that you could do and conquer life's obstacles. This is much easier to learn as a child when you are not even aware of learning these things. Affect regulation is another biggie that we are not given a chance to develop when we grow up in abusive homes. And make no mistake... neglect is a form of abuse!

When we are raised in healthy homes we do encounter obstacles but they are SURMOUNTABLE obstacles that help us to develop our sense of self and of what we can handle on our own. We should also have our attachment figure there cheering us on and helping us develop skills. Unfortunately, when you grow up in an abusive home you are given UNSURMOUNTABLE obstacles and you are doomed to fail handling them over and over and so we learn that it is hopeless to try. This is called learned hopelessness and it follows us into adulthood.

What you have found in your therapist is someone who believes in you and who encourages you and is helping you to develop in a new and healthy way. You are being "heard" and your needs are being met, you have someone to confide in when things get scary or feel out of control... so it is NO surprise that you feel such intense feelings for your P. You have finally found that older, stronger, wiser other to be there for you so that you can now go out slowly and venture into the world but you still have that safe place to return to when things feel scary. And please don't compare yourself to others... just go at your own pace. Yes, things are harder for us with trauma backgrounds than for others who have grown up in safe healthy environments but that does not mean we cannot grow and heal with time and effort and a good T/P. I think that you have the tools to do this but it will get bumpay along the way. That's why you need to come here and post without worrying how long your posts are or how often you post. You will find support here to give you strength to keep going with your therapy. The most important thing is to do your best to be as open and honest with your P as possible so he will come to know you and then be better able to help you in the ways that you need.

Hang in there.

TN

BB... no thanks necessary. You contribute a lot to this board with your thoughts and insights so why wouldn't I respond to you. The reason you feel that I understand this is because I live it every day. I think these types of feelings that are almost pre-verbal can only really be understood by another person who has experienced trauma. But we can try to communicate how we feel to our Ts/Ps and if they are attuned to us they will eventually come to understand enough of it to help us.

I really do have faith that you will get past this.

TN

BB the book is Attachment in Psychotherapy by David Wallin. It's on Amazon. Another book that I'm reading but not finished with is called Parenting from the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel and Mary Hartzell.

TN

BB

Just a few thoughts on your post. I am sorry that you feel so confused at the moment and are blaming yourself for how you feel. That's a really hard place to be, you blame yourself and then you feel worse and so you blame yourself more and more because it must be true. But it's not your fault that you feel confused and you have done nothing wrong

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I don't deserve this help, I've done something wrong, I am overly-dependent

and you desrve all this help, especially so when times are hard. Just the same as your little child deserved all the help and love he needed to help with his muscle development when things were tough for him. I really don't for one minute think that

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my P cares about me less because I cannot yet crawl, and that really hurts

but it's easy to think that our frustrations with ourselves will be felt and reciprocated by others, that others wil see us as we see ourselves. He won't BB, because he will see the genuine, gentle person that you are, that needs a little more time and support from him. When I feel I am making painfully slow progress I ask my T if I am difficult. She always says the same 'the problem is difficult, you are not difficult at all.'

And as for the books, keep reading. Stop if something is unhelpful and makes you feel in any way bad about yourself. If something is helpful, hang on to it and read it over and over again. My T has recommended books to me before, but mostly I find them for myself. Sometimes we differ on what is helpful or not!
So trust yourself and your instincts BB.

starfish

Oh Blackbird I am feeling your pain in every word that you’ve written. And it could be almost me writing what you’ve written so much of it is exactly the state I’m in and things that I struggle with (and have done so for decades.)

I’m exactly like you describe when it comes to reading (or taking in any info for that matter) it’s like whatever I sponge up becomes fixed in my head as true and real and I have big problems when conflicting ideas enter my head. I also struggle BIG TIME with knowing what I actually think and believe - most of what I think I know is actually stuff that’s come in from outside, stuff I’ve read or heard or been told or ‘understood’ without its actually being based on my own experience. To be honest I haven’t a clue what I really think and feel, what I really believe and know to be true. Actually I have no truth at all, I don’t have that inner certainty that everyone else seems to have. It takes very little for something or someone to challenge what I think I know to be true. I always and I mean ALWAYS doubt my own perceptions and that’s a pretty hellish way to live. All of my work on myself, and the reason I’ve gone back into therapy is so I can find my own truth, finally. So I can have that sense of inner certainty that won’t constantly get blown out of the water by a passing comment or a new piece of information. And that certainty is based squarely on being able to rely on my emotional perceptions. Work in progress definitely.

I could go on far too long outlining all the bits in your posts that I also feel and think and experience - but the one thing that really strikes home with me and that maybe just maybe I can be supportive about is where you say

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I think my P thinks I do not need his help because I can think, make associations, have some kind of a conscience, etc. He is always making reference to my intellect, that it is "brilliant" and so on, which I honestly do not understand- why he says stuff like that all the time. I don't think he fully understands how confused I get about talking to him, or how much I need him to be willing to help me to "stand up." (or crawl as the case may be.) That is how I experience it anyway. But the attachment is a powerful feeling, and perhaps, all of this is excuse making on my part in order to get "some goodies" from him.

You could almost have my judge sitting in your head, that’s the sort of stuff I have going on in my head all the time - ESPECIALLY where you are doubting yourself and seeing it as somehow wrong to want to get ‘goodies’ from him.

That’s the bit I want to pin down. It’s exactly the moral set up I labour under (and I bet most of us do too to some degree) that somehow getting for me is wrong, bad, incorrect - that the whole point of life (and therapy and the universe etc) is to somehow ‘grow out’ of such a ‘childish’ neediness. As if wanting to be seen as good, wanting to be smiled at and praised and encouraged and being reflected as a worthwhile loveable likeable wantable person is a big bad no-no, something to be changed, improved, worked on, ITALICS gotten rid of ITALICS and it’s taken me years to get to the point now where I am finally telling myself - but I want that and by god I’m going to get it somehow or another! I’ve spent years believing I wasn’t supposed to want anything like that from anyone else that I was supposed to somehow miraculously develop self love and self liking all by myself in the vacuum of my mind and now I finally realize it’s impossible without getting it first from out there, from other people.

And these last few sessions with my T I’ve gotten up the courage to be point blank about it - actually openly told him that that is what I want from him - to tell me, to show me, to prove to me, to reflect me - as GOOD, as having good qualities, as being likeable and loveable . (Not wanting HIM to like and love me, but for him to show me how I AM likeable and loveable - there’s a big difference.)

Never mind that I don’t believe it anyway, I actually believe I’m unlikeable unlovable unwantable - but in this my rational intellectualizing has actually helped me because rationally I know that it’s not possible for one person to be so totally bad and worthless as I believe myself to be (and believe that everyone else thinks I am too) - so intellectually I am choosing to have faith that my T actually does see something good about me and am using that faith to push to get some fundamental needs of mine met.

Phew sorry I’ve run off at the mouth again but the point of all that verbiage is to say in big capital letters that there is NOTHING wrong with getting ‘goodies’ - it’s not some childish trick or manipulation for something that you don’t deserve - it’s exactly what you need and want and that’s what a therapist CAN give you - openly. It’s ok to want to get for you, in fact it’s more than ok, it’s right, it’s correct, it’s what life is all about!

I think you’re probably right in one thing, that your P possibly doesn’t understand yet as well as he could just how much you do need from him - and I’m going to suggest that you think about actually telling him much more openly and clearly the kinds of things you’ve written about in this last post. When I finally laid it out for my T, he still didn’t get it immediately. It’s taken a few sessions of me repeating and repeating and clarifying and refining the nature of exactly what I want from him (and even HOW I want him to give it) for him to get a better sense of my need. (Never mind that he actually is quite happy to sit there telling me how wonderful I am - I can’t take it in lol, something to do with it’s being because I’ve asked for it - but he also knows that for me to believe anything good about me it’s got to sort of slip in obliquely when I’m not looking.) I really wish you could do something similar - it’s made me feel so much more accepting of my wanting goodies for me, and that’s a first step in being able to actually GET.

Blackbird I so hope you are ok, you sound as if you’re spiralling a bit out of control - please know that I really get how it’s all so confusing and frightening and you don’t have to sit with it all by yourself. Big hugs to you.

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No, It means a lot to me that you would even remember that other post, Jones. I felt really small leaving that there, in the face of what you had endured...why I deleted it. That whole scenario was very small in the scheme of things Jones. But I think you make an interesting point. I did feel crushed and small and stuck under there as you say. I wonder what kind of person may have such strong intense reaction to such a situation that to this day I am phobic of being buried alive, I can feel intensely what it would be like, I feel I hav lived it...that is strange. Honestly it is like I have been buried alive, I "remember" it. I must think about this. Maybe take to P, if I can be brave ever. Thank you Jones.

BB, I'm sad that you felt that way about your post. It resonates a lot because that is how it felt for me putting my thumb incident up there - like, how can this have been traumatic? I almost felt like I was insulting people who went through harder things by writing it.

More and more I'm throwing that measuring stick away. I am allowed to make sense of my own experiences in relation to my own life, my pain, my needs and my goals. AND SO ARE YOU!!!!

I want to say two things. 1) What you went through wasn't 'small' at all. It would have been very frightening for a kid. I can imagine that you were actually scared for your physical safety, scared of literally being crushed, and terrified of being left behind as well. It's a double bind of the kind I experienced too - hurt myself or risk something worse. And on top of that, you got a very strong signal from your dad that your experience (which felt really overwhelming to you) didn't matter. That is absolutely isolating.
2) The incident counts in itself, but I believe a big part of why these things affect us is that they represent the emotional context we are living in. So in this sense, it actually doesn't matter how 'big' or 'small' the incident was. A toe-stubbing could be a genuinely traumatic experience for a kid who was not receiving the care, attention and parenting that kid needed. Because being deprived of those things deprives children of their resilience, their ability to come to terms with what happens to them, to feel ok, secure, loved, lovable, peaceful and safe.
3) Ok, three things! Sometimes I think these incidents have symbolic resonance. So if for you a lot of your emotional experience was of being crushed or buried by the expectations of others, to have a physical experience of that would have been extremely powerful and frightening.

I think your car incident was really, really significant to you. It's painful in itself, AND it represents a lot of what you were not getting that you needed.

So yes, I remember it. And I hope you do too, and that you understand that that little girl needed and deserved a lot more acknowledgement, care, thought and looking after than she was getting.

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He has a way of shrugging his shoulders and spreading his hands and saying in so many words "so what?" It leaves me feeling really really bad to the point I don't really want to talk to him about stuff anymore. I start to blank out everything he says, when it feels so strongly that he doesn't care about little me and my little problems. I'm not sure what he is doing that makes me feel this way.

Also BB, this troubles me. Your P shrugs off your problems and says "so what"? That's terrible! I know you are not in any position where you want to move away from him, so I'm not going in that direction by saying this. BUT - don't you feel just a teeny tiny flicker of anger about this? Maybe it's worth fanning that little spark?

I know my relationship with my T got a lot stronger as I learned to spit it out when I felt mad. I'm still learning this, but just knowing I can do it makes the relationship feel so much more REAL and authentic. Like I can be my real self, and somehow I get to see more of the real her, too - because she can say 'ok, sorry, you know I'm a bit dense sometimes' or 'ok, that was a bad way to word it, I really meant something like X'. I thought that showing her my critical/angry/alienated feelings would diminish her and make her unable to help me, but the opposite has happened. Of course, to get there you need to get to a place where you FEEL angry that this guy is reacting to you in this way....

ALSO, I love that you now have your SD as a point of comparison. He is proof that not all therapeutic-type relationships need to be this way for you. He is proof that you are not 100% the source of your bad feeling - it is about something that is going on between the two of you (so don't just try to fix it in your head!!).

Ok, my rambling is done for now!

Take care, BB.

(((((((((((BB)))))))))))

BB, I'm so sorry to see you feeling so hurt and lost. I wish I knew the right thing to say to help you get through this pain, because I can hear how acute it is. You need support and care and acknowledgement, I can hear that.

I'm sorry if my comments about anger added to your sense of confusion and pressure. Ultimately I think what's most important is that you have some room to feel the things you are feeling now.

Last session I was talking to my t about the couples therapy we have begun. She asked me how I felt about something with my husband, and why I hadn't said that in the couple session. I said something similar to what you are saying here - that I already knew I was wrong in my perception and feeling. But she encouraged me to bring it in anyway, to own it and feel it so we could work with it together, instead of me having to try to fix it myself in my head. I tried it in the couples session this week and it worked really well - it was just a passing thing in the conversation, but it was a relief to say it.

Part of me is always separate from what I feel, second guessing it, questioning it, and (when I'm feeling bad) undermining it. I hear that in your post too. But that part of you that feels mistrustful and tricked and manipulated needs some space too. It may be that these feelings come from the past, rather than the present situation. That doesn't make the feelings wrong. They are still valid and part of your experience. If they come from the past that makes them rich for therapeutic work, and your P may be able to help you do that work of making the connections.

I understand the bind, though - how difficult it is to move towards that with someone when you DO feel tricked and manipulated, and you are not even sure they want to help you.

You WILL get through this, BB. You have made good, solid progress lately with this P, and that was real. You will get there again - you will get through this setback, I believe. Draw on us, draw on your SD. You will make it.

Thank you for asking how I am - I am actually doing really well right now, therapeutically speaking, though really busy otherwise. I will post an update when something interesting happens!

Take care.
J