Hi All,

I'm sort of spinning again, although not like I have in the past, thank goodness. I'm feeling so much better about my relationship with my T after having read her my letter about her reactions to me and feeling like she was avoiding my attachment to her, and also dropping her off a letter about searching the internet for stuff about her and her family. She has responded really well to me and I feel pretty good about all of that and how things have turned out. Also, I feel the medication I started several days ago is helping my mind as well, and that is such a blessing.

So my dilemma now is what to do about my feelings for my T. In another one of my threads I got some advice from a few of you suggesting that I tell my T about my feelings for her. I just don't know if it's really something I should do, or if it would just keep us going around in circles on a topic that we've sort of discussed in a round about manner already. I don't know. Here's the thing: She knows I am attached to her. She knows that my feelings are intense. She does not know what my feelings are. I feel like she doesn't really want to know what they are, as she hasn't ever asked me about them. She wants to know who she reminds me of, but not really how I feel about her. I sometimes feel like she is sort of avoiding talking about my feelings for her, although I am learning that my interpretations of her actions (or lack thereof) are not always accurate. I am scared to tell her how I feel about her, and I feel a lot of shame about my feelings for her. However, I feel that she needs to know, but I don't know WHY I feel like she needs to know. Maybe it's because some of you have Ts that have explored your feelings about them with you and I just think that is the logical and right thing for a T to do with a client. I don't know. I just have all of these intense feelings for my T; maternal, friendly, really deep emotional longing, nothing erotic or anything like that. I hate to be separated from her, and struggle with most of what a lot of you also struggle with. I don't need to give you all the details, as I'm sure a lot of you already understand! But I wonder if my T understands.

After talking to her about my internet searching last time (she had just read my letter about all that I had discovered only a few days prior), I realized that she didn't even talk to me about any of the stuff I put in that letter. The only things she said were that I had crossed a boundary and that was all I had done, and then she told me that I have to stop living in fantasy (meaning the internet searching, and I guess the wanting to know everything about her, which I know and told her I know I can't do because of the situation). She said it's like going to Disneyland and realizing/finding out that Mickey isn't a real mouse. Kind of hurt my feelings, but I understood what she was saying, and I know she wasn't trying to be hurtful. I just got the feeling that she thinks I am partly in fantasy land, even though I do really know that she can't be or do anything for me in the real world that I want her to. I know it on an intellectual, rational, logical level. It's the rest of my mind I need to convince! Anyway, there was a bunch of stuff in that letter, telling her that my shame was really intense over my attachment to her, and that the emotions and feelings were very powerful and intense, and that this was all very different for me than the previous attachments I have had in the past (they occurred many years ago, so time has faded their intensity in my mind, too). I had hoped that by disclosing some of these things she might open some sort of discussion about my feelings, but apparently not. So I'm left wondering why. I know I should ask her why, but should I, or should I just drop it? Do I need to let her know any of this stuff? Does she NEED to know my feelings? Her thing is that she knows I am attached, and that the reason is that I didn't get my needs met in childhood because I didn't have a secure attachment to my mother, and I don't have a close relationship with my husband or mother or father, so I am looking for a new attachment figure to meet my needs, and that is my T. So she wants to just have me focus on one relationship (and the choices didn't include the relationship with her, darn it! ) where I try to get my needs met, but with my husband it is more about me giving to him so that he'll feel like he wants to give to me. Kinda backwards for me. Anyway, she is going right for the kill in that she attacks the things she sees that I can work on in real time (reality) and ignores the fantasy stuff (my attachment to her), although she is getting me in for sessions more frequently, calls me weekly (during her lunch hour) to check up on me, and is being really caring and good to me, so I don't know what to think or do. I'm so confused!!

Some of the things I might say to her include things like the fact that I really admire her 'kick-butt' attitude, her self-confidence, her wisdom, that she is so committed to helping her patients and that her care for them shows, that I think she is beautiful both inside and out, that I love her sense of humor and the fact that she can make me laugh even when I am crying and feeling really down. That I miss her between sessions, and that two days feel like two weeks sometimes, and that I just love to be in her presence because she helps me feel good about myself, she helps me feel safe and accepted, and lovable and okay. Are these things okay to tell her? Are they worth telling her? She doesn't take compliments well, but says she loves to get cards, notes, letters. Don't know what kinds of cards, notes and letters she likes, but I'm tempted to write her a good one. I think I am really just afraid of hearing this: "MTF, thank you for sharing your feelings with me. You know that this is all just attachment related stuff and transference feelings being projected onto me and that these feelings aren't really for me." That would just devastate me. I don't think I could ever face her again if she said anything even remotely like that. I think that is what really scares me and keeps me from feeling okay about doing this. I don't think I could handle having my feelings rejected like that, because while I do realize that some of these feelings are partly transference and attachment stuff, I love my T on a real level as a person in and of herself, as an individual unique human being, and I wonder if she gets that.

Anyway, I've gone on rambling way too long. Any suggestions or advice or criticism is appreciated. Well, not so much the criticism, but feel free to say what you need to say!

MTF

Hey MTF,

quote:

I know it on an intellectual, rational, logical level. It's the rest of my mind I need to convince!

Oh, I know that "split" very well. In my opinion, it's one of the most frustrating things to experience, because your logical side of your brain knows that it's right, but it's the minority, and it can't convince the majority. I know that I would experience the same thing as you, though - I would feel partly hurt, but I would also understand what she was saying. It's definitely a hard thing to deal with.

I completely grasp your frustration when it comes to your T. It sounds like you're getting and feeling mixed signals from her, which is so tough. But she does seem very attentive an caring - I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but is it possible that she is trying to get you to make use of your attachment (and inherent trust in that attachment) and be encouraging you to open up to her about your feelings in person? I know that it's so much easier to put things on paper rather than speak them. Half of the time, I wish I could write letters in all of my communication, because I could get things done so much more efficiently! But maybe she wants to really rebuild your trust in her by having you verbally express your feelings for her in complete honesty. And more than just saying that you are attached, but explaining exactly what you said here. Again, I really don't know, but if that is what she's trying to do, it would help match up her actions. It's like she's fostering your attachment to her when she calls you during her lunch hour, and I find it hard that she could be completely oblivious to that. So, logically (I think logic will be the death of me), she may be trying to draw upon that attachment to enhance your therapy.

When is your next session with her?

K,

My next session is Friday. She had a cancellation (or so the secretary said, but the office hours are from ten til two, though some Ts work later hours.), so she got me in on my 'off week' again. Then I'll see her next Wednesday as well. I don't know if I like seeing her so frequently after seeing her every other week for so long. It makes me have serious separation anxiety issues, and I hate that. And now that you have brought up what you have about her maybe trying to foster my attachment to her I wonder what she is really trying to do. Things have been weird since we had that 'UBER-limbic resonance' connective experience last month, and having her tell me that she felt a spiritual connection with me besides the emotional and physical connection (from holding my hands), I wonder what's going on with her. She did a 180 degree about face on me, and instead of her not wanting me to be 'too dependent' on her, it's like she's doing the opposite and now she's okay with it. It's confusing the heck out of me!

If I tell her my feelings I was already planning to tell her in person, although it might be reading a letter to her again, as I tend to freeze up almost completely when I have to talk about things that are emotional. I can intellectualize really well, but bring the emotions online and my thinking brains shuts down and I'm 'gone'. So I would tell her but read most of it, then give her the letter after I read it.

quote:

But maybe she wants to really rebuild your trust in her by having you verbally express your feelings for her in complete honesty.

I don't get how that might help rebuild my trust in her? I'm scared as heck to tell her my feelings in complete honesty because I fear her reactions. Is that what you mean? That if she reacts well, I will trust her more? Do you think she's doing all this to try to strengthen the attachment? And what purpose do you think that might serve, because I'm pretty oblivious to that right now. For me it just becomes more painful the deeper the attachment gets. I really don't like this stuff.

MTF

Hi there More Than Fine

It seems to me that the way you feel about your T is really important and no matter what if you don’t talk about how you feel or sort it in some way with your T it’s going to eat away at you - something permanently unresolved in the back of your mind that will (I think) interfere with the therapy proper.

Maybe you could ask her pointblank what her take on attachment is? How she views it and what her approach to it is? (rather than forcing yourself to expose how you feel - getting some idea of what her likely response is going to be might just help you decide how to proceed.)

The way you are describing how you feel about her it’s not some small irrelevancy - and I’m surprised she doesn’t seem to want to pick up on it and work with these feelings in sessions. I also get what you say about these feelings being REAL for her as a person, and not just ‘transference’. All the more reason to be able to sort it with her one way or another.

I’m so sorry you are spinning out about it - but what you’ve been explaining about how your sessions have been going recently it really sounds as if she is there for you. Maybe taking a bit of risk is called for here?

Monte,

I'm sitting here crying because I think you've pretty much said exactly what I needed to hear, and for some reason it really struck me. I guess I am upset with my T because part of me would love a T that is open to hearing about my feelings and wants to hear them and accepts them and validates them and instead I feel like mine doesn't (although I'm making assumptions with that, and that's not fair to her). Instead I feel like trying to put my feelings out there to her would just be one big shame fest and I would end up feeling worse. Probably not true, as I'm sure she would likely end up explaining to me that dealing openly with transference issues aren't her strength, but that she IS good at going straight to the heart of the matter and working on what's causing the problems in my life rather than wasting time on something she can't fix. I know I can trust her because she is good at what she does.

It's like you said, WHY CAN'T MT T JUST TELL ME THE TRUTH? Why can't she just say it in plain and simple terms? "MTF, I know you're hurting because you have all these powerful, intense feelings and that it is really difficult for you, but please trust that I understand what you're going through and that I'm doing what I can to help you. Trust that I know how to help you get through this, even if it's not the way you want to get through it." And yeah, something along the lines of putting down the transference frenzy and following their lead and everything will be OK in the end. It doesn't feel like it will ever be OK. It just feels really scary most of the time. The more attached I get and the more I feel she encourages it with more frequent sessions, phone calls, etc., the more frightened I become, because then my needs and feelings grow even more and I don't want that. I don't want a stronger feeling of dependency on her!

quote:

WHY CAN'T MY T SAY THAT?! Or something like that. Maybe he has already said it, yours too, but we are not hearing their wise words for what they are...we have our own ideas on how they should help us heal.

We hear our pain over our relationship with them screaming for attention and it seems so bloody obvious that this is the issue at hand, but maybe what they see and want to focus on is what is BEHIND that noise, past relationships and grief etc. Maybe their aim is to go straight to the source rather than waste time (in their view) on present stuff.

I need to give up my own ideas on how my T should help me heal, I guess. I need to trust that she's been doing this for a long time and that she knows her stuff. Heck, I just need to trust her, period! I know I have trust issues, but this is bordering on ridiculous. I guess that's why I just want her to say it--to tell me that she understands what I'm going through, understands my feelings, and that she IS helping me and that I will get there if I wil just trust her and follow her lead. As much as I would rather focus on the relationship with my T, I need to take her hand and allow her to lead me in the direction she feels I need to go, even though I may not want to go in that direction right now (and believe me, I don't!).

So, to answer your question Monte, I think you've got it right on! Thanks so much for hitting me with it right between the eyes because I really needed to hear it just the way you put it. Seems there's a good thing that's come of having a 'twin' on the boards! Well, I'll call you my twin, but you don't have to own me as such--I'm just speaking for myself here, as I'd have you as a twin any day!! Thanks for the help. It means more than you could know!! (((HUGS))) of thanks to you!!

MTF

Lamplighter

Thanks for the input. I think I may bring it up with her. It is important to me that she knows how I feel, because it is a big deal to me, but like Monte said in her post above, it's not really her strength to deal with my feelings for her so much as it is to deal with the issues that are causing me to need her so much, meaning the lack of having my needs met in primary relationships in my present life, and wanting her to meet them for me instead of working at those other relationships. She knows what she's doing, and I think she knows for the most part that my feelings for her are pretty intense, and maybe like Kashley said, she is waiting for me to express them through the course of therapy, and maybe she doesn't think it's that big a deal. I don't know. I need to think and introspect a bit more on these things, and try to get in touch a bit more with my inner feelings about this and what I'm willing to risk and if it's really worth it or even necessary. I think maybe I need to just trust my T and see where she can take me, and perhaps as things unfold and I stop bringing stuff to sessions that I have prepared (like you mentioned yourself in your post about therapy after a holiday ) my feelings will come up and I'll be able to share them with her unrehearsed and in the moment and have a really great experience with her. Who knows?

Thanks for sharing your ideas with me. It gives me more to think about!

MTF

MTF,
I really think the things you are feeling a pull to talk to your T about are things you should share with her. I completely understand that it is MUCH easier said than done. I just think trusting yourself enough to be open to whatever is coming up for you is a good way to move forward. Maybe trusting that whatever is coming up is for a reason and it's because it's time to look at it. (only you know for sure, but that is the feeling I get) I definitely think talking to her about all of it is the best way to go. She has proven time and again that she cares, wants to help you, accepts you. If she actually said she likes letters, I might do that again. My only concern may be that it is easier for her to not answer or respond to all the things you might want her to that way. So, maybe reading it to her? (I know - mortifying. I might rather stab myself in my eye)

Even if she is trying to use a different approach than dealing directly with your relationship with her, as Monte said, at least you will feel heard and have a chance to express what you need to about it. I suspect that and having your feelings accepted is what you are really needing?

So glad you have been able to stay out of the 'spinning'! Positive changes!

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
Oh MTF, I'm so glad my comments were helpful. It helped me too, because I had never thought it through so clearly. I think that's the beauty of these boards...you look at someone else's situation so much more objectively and if they're in a similar place to you, well obviously there are benefits to be had.

I'm glad that YOU can see someone else's situation more objectiveley. I guess I can sometimes, but my head is still in such a fog that it's hard to even see my own stuff as it is sometimes. Bleh.

I have come to a few more conclusions overnight. My T is not being the T I want him to be...or more to the point, I am not letting him be the T he IS...I have not been responding to his best efforts because they are not in line with my agenda. I need to tell him this. Dang!!! How do you figure this stuff out? This is EXACTLY my issue too. I wonder sometimes if getting online and searching for stuff about transference and good therapy (and finding this website and forum) after my T reacted to me back in December after I told her I was attached to her was a bad idea, because since then I have been judging her by 'standards' I have found on the web, and that isn't really fair to her. She knows her stuff. She has her own way of doing things, and people wouldn't be lined up on her waiting list for months if she wasn't a really good therapist. I have had my own agenda, too. And hers hasn't matched up with it, so I have been resisting it and fighting it and coming up with every red flag I can 'find' to give me some excuse to find fault with her, or question her abilities, or her intentions, or whether or not she is trustworthy, etc.. Ugh, I've gone and stepped into a big pile of dog poop, haven't I?! Hate that...

Another thing about that desperate need to communicate the transference thing and be understood...for me that is, don't know about you. I wonder if I have a hidden agenda. I wonder if I secretly hope that by really shining the spotlight on the transference issues, by drawing him into deep discussion and understanding, I may somehow trigger in him an extra measure of care and compassion, with the result being him giving me more of what I crave. Like maybe I'm thinking, "If you really understood my needs and where they're coming from, you may be more willing to meet them in some ways..."

Here's my way of looking at my need to communicate the transference/attachment stuff to my T, after reading (and okay, slightly copying ) your interpretation of what yours might be: I think I will somehow trigger my T into having a greater desire to care more deeply for me, show more concern, compassion, and give me more of what I crave from her, like maybe, "If you really understand my feelings and needs, and how much you mean to me, you may be more willing to meet them and be something for me outside of therapy NOW, not in a year or two (or three) when therapy is over and I can come by the hospital and go have lunch. (And yeah, if you didn't know this, my T told me after I read her that letter about her reactions to me and how I had felt because of her reactions, and told her that when I had to end therapy that I felt like I would be walking away from her funeral that day, she told me it didn't have to be that way, and that I could decide at that point if I wanted to be completely discharged for good and 'be friends' and do lunch once in a while, or still have the option of coming back for therapy if I needed to at some future point, but that I couldn't have both. She said she has 2 or 3 ex-patients that she sees as friends now that they aren't patients any more. She told me she likes me and would like to stay in touch, but it's up to me. I oftentimes wish she had never told me any of that. It has made therapy all that much harder for me and created SO MUCH CONFUSION. How can you hold that out there like that for someone who is struggling, tell them that you care for them, but that they have to wait until therapy is terminated to have what you're holding out there? So unfair, and I don't know whether to be angry or grateful. I think she was doing it partly to calm me, because I was VERY upset that day (that was the day she teared up on me, and we had our 'UBER-limbic resonance' connection moment) but I wonder if part of it was her own guilt rearing it's head because she realized she had screwed up big time and her own emotions were online and in the way. I don't know. Can you see my problem here? It's not just MY feelings I have to deal with, it's some of her own thrown in there, too. That doesn't help with the shame factor either, for some reason. I think I have A LOT to talk to my T about. Thanks for giving me a starting point, and a lot of good food for thought! This has been awesome, Monte!! You really outdid yourself this time! I'm way proud of you! See why I'm more than willing to adopt you as my board twin?!!

Maybe it's that mini-me brat, schemimg in the background as usual, forever trying to get her way.
I'm thinking I must have a bratty little mini-me inside, too. She needs a long time-out.

My aim I think must be to clearly communicate all this to him, receive confirmation from him that he has understood...and then trust him and let him do things his way from there. If I don't like his way, it is up to me then to make a choice. I think you've got your plan figured out and it sounds like a terrific one! I too need to do the same. Trusting my T and letting her do things her own way is going to be tough, but like you said, if I don't like her way, I will then have to decide whether to suck it up and soldier on with her anyway, or find another T. I'm hoping I (and you, too) can just trust my T and let her do things her way and allow her knowledge, skill, expertise and care for me take over and lead her and me to wherever it is I need to go.

Monte

PS O-o-k-a-a-ay, we can be board twins. That's cute!

Gee, thanks!! I'm feeling super special today! Yay!!! (and now my Ambien has fully kicked in I am going to bed now so I don't get any loopier!) Thanks for your wonderful insights, Monte. You've helped me out tremendously here, and I so very much appreciate it!! THANKS!!!

MTF

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MTF,

Hey MTF,

I'm about to conk out right here in front of the computer, but I just wanted to say a couple things while they're fresh in my not-so-fresh mind.

quote:

I wonder if part of it was her own guilt rearing it's head because she realized she had screwed up big time and her own emotions were online and in the way.

I think you are selling yourself short here. I'm sure she has plenty and plenty of ex-patients, considering she has a waiting list. So to take into perspective that she only sees 2 or 3 ex-patients as friends outside of therapy, it doesn't strike me that she would make that offer to just anyone, even if she was feeling guilty. I would take what she said at face value. She DOES want to keep in touch with you, and not out of guilt! Of course, no one can be entirely sure, but it sure seems that way to me. It does seem entirely plausible that she said it to calm you, but that's not to say that she wouldn't have told you at some other point, maybe closer to when you terminate with her, whenever that will be. Who knows. Maybe she withheld it for a while because she didn't want to leave you hanging. Maybe it means that she has recognized your attachment to her and didn't want to dangle this in front of you, just out of your reach. Nonetheless, I still think that her offer is entirely genuine.

quote:

Originally posted by seablue:
My only concern may be that it is easier for her to not answer or respond to all the things you might want her to that way.

I think this is a good thought and possibility. Ha, but I do agree...if I had to read anything in a letter out loud to my T, I'd probably rather stab my eye out. Neither would be very pleasant, but at least there is the predictability of knowing that you won't be able to see out of one eye if you stab it out, rather than not knowing for sure what would happen until you spit the words out!

Seablue,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I know these things are coming up for a reason, that's for sure. I agree that I need to confront the feelings, but I'm starting to think that it's probably more with myself than with my T. I think with Monte's help yesterday, then late last night, I was able to come to realize that I haven't been willing to accept that my T pretty much understands my feelings (or at least the fact that I have them and that they are pretty overwhelming for me), but that she has a different approach to helping me deal with them. I don't mind that, but I haven't been willing to just allow her to BE who she IS and just accept her way of BEING. I want to mold her into what I want her to be. I could tell her my feelings again and again and again, and she would accept them, and I'm sure not be embarrassed about them (that's ALL ME, I realize), but she wouldn't change her way of dealing with them, because that's not her 'way'. She would simply tell me that it's all got to do with my primary relationships (with my husband and parents and siblings) and that there is where I need to focus my efforts in order to heal and find what I am searching for and wanting her to give me. She knows, she just also knows she can't do anything about it but point me in the 'right' direction. It's painful, but I just have to accept that I need to trust her and allow her to be the best therapist SHE CAN BE for me, and stop trying to get her to be something more, something different, something she CAN'T BE. Hello MTF!! I've been missing the boat all along. I need to tell her a lot of things, apparentely. And yeah, I am mortified and WOULD rather stab myself in the eye, but I know from past experience with her that it will all be okay in the end. That's why I love my T. She does accept me, warts and all!

Thanks for your encouragement, Seablue!! It means a lot

MTF

Kashley,

quote:

So to take into perspective that she only sees 2 or 3 ex-patients as friends outside of therapy, it doesn't strike me that she would make that offer to just anyone, even if she was feeling guilty. I would take what she said at face value. She DOES want to keep in touch with you, and not out of guilt! Of course, no one can be entirely sure, but it sure seems that way to me.

Thanks for putting it this way. Makes me feel better, although I still think it's weird she would tell a patient this. I could see it near the end of therapy when termination is getting near, but I am far from that day. So I guess it's made it hard for me because part of me wants that NOW, not years in the future, and also it's messed with my head in that I wouldn't tell stuff that I would tell a therapist to a friend (or someone I know would eventually be a friend someday in the future), ya know what I mean? Just seems kind of hard for me to wrap my head around, not to mention my heart. Maybe I need to discuss that one with her, but that is almost worse that talking about my feelings for her.

Anyway, thank you for your perspective on this. It's much appreciated!!

MTF

Hey MTF -

I hope you've been doing ok today. Let us know how your session goes tomorrow!

Oh, and I just wanted to add that I completely hear you when you say you're used to your T being your T. I have no clue how I would approach that, so I have nothing to give you there, but I do understand!

Hi K,

I've been okay today, thanks for asking. It seems I opened a can of worms, and I hate it when I do that because everyone disappears. I know what I brought up is a sensitive subject around here, and it's even hard for me, so I appreciate that you replied and gave me your input. I feel pretty alone with this situation with my T offering 'friendship' after termination, as I know that most Ts don't, as it really is not considered 'ethical' to have a relationship with a patient for at least 2 years after termination. And I can see why, because it messes with your heart and your head in some negative ways. Ugh. I wish I knew how to deal with this one. It's a doozie!! Thanks for your understanding!!

MTF

Monte,

I remember you mentioning this before, and how much pain it has caused you--that he has signed a contract now that prohibits him being able to do this, etc. I just have this feeling that my T will 'forget' what she has held out there, or that she will withdraw her offer, or something else will happen. You're right, it really messes with the therapy, and I don't like it at all! It makes me fear being myself with her even more than I already did, which is stupid, because I don't have to be 'friends' with her after therapy--it's up to me. I just can't seem to get past the issue of looking at her as I do other people. Like I worry about what she's going to think of me when I tell her this or that, or do I look good enough when I go to my sessions with her, or I just try to put on my best 'face' for her. I don't want to look like the rest of her patients. I want to be the 'best' patient, the healthiest one who is making the most progress, who she can be proud of. It's pathetic. I know I'm not fooling her. Or am I? Ugh. I am wearing a mask for my therapist, and that is holding me back big time. But how do I remove it and get to where I can open up and be ME without fear of judgment by just another one of 'them'. She's not one of 'them', she's my therapist, and I just don't see her that way. It's such a terrible bind I'm in now. I was fine until I became attached to her. Now everything's changed, and I don't even know if she is aware of it or not. I want to tell her all of this but don't even know where to start. I feel like I need to print off all of these posts and highlight all the stuff I need to tell her and then just start reading it to her in sessions until it's all out there. Sigh... What to do, what to do?

Thanks for your response. I know I'm not alone here, it just feels like it sometimes, and I don't like to bring up things that are painful for people. I know the pain and it really hurts.

MTF