Hi everyone,

My husband and I have started couples therapy again with a new T. I'm feeling really optimistic about it because this T knows about attachment theory (among other things of course), which I think really plays a very significant part in why my husband and I have never connected on so many levels. We had a two-hour intake appointment last week, and now this week we have individual appointments. Next week we will have another appointment together to go over everything that came up in the sessions and in the paperwork we filled out, and will decide where to go from there.

I've been stressing for about the last 24 hours, getting stomachaches, feeling more and more nervous and full of dread as my individual appointment gets closer (it's tomorrow morning). I've almost cancelled a few times, thinking it shouldn't really matter if I don't have the individual appointment because there's nothing I haven't told (or am not willing to tell) my husband. He's the one who needs the individual time because he tends to say only what he thinks I want him to say when I'm there, whereas I have no such compunction - by now I have established my place as the "squeaky wheel" in the relationship. I even told him I want him to really "let me have it" when he talks to the T alone...I told him not to hold back at all! In fact, it would do him good to have twice as much time...I would be willing to give him my appointment. But the T probably wouldn't go for that.

So, there is a lot of truth to all of that...I'm really good at rationalizing...but here's what's really going on...I'm really, really scared. The last time I trusted a male T, he led me out into the wilderness, saying he knew the way, he'd done this before, and he'd help me through it...then in the deepest part of the woods, he threw me under a very large bus and ran away. And it's taken me another eight months to find my way back out (with the help of all of you here ). Don't get me wrong, I've learned a lot along the way...but I really do not want to ever go through something like that again.

I wish I didn't have to meet alone with that T tomorrow. When I met alone with my former T, it always felt so unbalanced without my husband there. I would always put my bag next to me on the couch where my husband sat the first few sessions, as if to "hold his place", to try to restore some balance in the room. I'm remembering how that unbalanced feeling felt and that is what is making me scared. I even just thought of asking my husband to come with me and wait in the waiting room, but it's too late for him to ask off of work, and besides, I'm being pretty ridiculous, right? It's just one session. We're not going to meet repeatedly for eight months while my marriage sits on the back burner, on the verge of divorce.

So...taking a deep breath...thanks for reading, it feels good to have a place to vent about this.

SG

SG,
It makes total sense that you would be apprehensive. The last time you met alone with a marriage counselor it didn't turn out so good. You're walking into a very similar situation, of course you worry about the same outcome. BUT (you knew there would be one right? ) this isn't your old T. I'm actually impressed by the intake process that he meets with both of you individually so that there's a safe place where you can really open up without having to worry about hurting your spouse's feelings. I can understand where that would be extremely important for some people. So I don't think it's strange you're scared but I also think that you can expect a different outcome. Especially because, as you said, you learned alot going through that. You are a much more informed person now, and would be quicker to see any problematic behavior for what it is. You are capable of taking care of yourself, you've more than proved that by overcoming what happened with your last T and going on to find a T who is a good fit for you. Go SG!! Because so much of our childhood often included powerlessness, we tend to believe we still are. But that's not the truth. You are a person who is not powerless and can protect herself.

quote:

So, there is a lot of truth to all of that...I'm really good at rationalizing...but here's what's really going on...I'm really, really scared. The last time I trusted a male T, he led me out into the wilderness, saying he knew the way, he'd done this before, and he'd help me through it...then in the deepest part of the woods, he threw me under a very large bus and ran away. And it's taken me another eight months to find my way back out (with the help of all of you here Wink ). Don't get me wrong, I've learned a lot along the way...but I really do not want to ever go through something like that again.

You probably know what I'm going to suggest, but I'm going to say it anyway. Tell the new T what you wrote here. You're going to need to trust him and feel safe with him for marriage counseling to work and I think talking to him about all these fears is a good place to start. And I think getting it out in the open will have two important effects. I think speaking openly of these feelings will prevent them from "clouding" the therapy. And watching his reaction to your fears could tell you alot about what kind of therapist he is. If you see him able to understand this, I think it will really help you to know you can work with him.

Let us know how it goes!

AG

SG, totally understandable that you would feel so scared about going into a situation that is so close to the traumatic one you experienced with your former T. You've done so much work to contain and process this experience with your new T, and I'm guessing this appointment wouldn't even be possible without that. I think this is another layer of processing that will let you get even freer from what you experienced with him - and will probably bring you a lot closer to your husband, too.

I REALLY identify with something you describe above - the 'he's the one who needs it' thinking. If there's one thing I've learned through my recent therapy, it's how easy I find it to 'think in my husband's head', if that makes sense. At a couple's session, I could quite easily sit there and give a long description of how I think my husband is feeling and what he needs at any given moment. But to identify my OWN feelings and needs I have to think twice, hesitate, umm and ahh, etc. It's amazing how often my awareness of what I think he needs is masking difficult feelings of my own, like the fear you describe above.

It's so good to be aware of your real fear in this situation - to know what lies under the mask. It will be hard for you to go into that appointment and be vulnerable, be by yourself with this unknown entity - but you know a lot about how to protect yourself. You know you want your relationship with your husband to be the priority. You know a lot about therapeutic boundaries and what feels okay and what doesn't. You have your own t and your husband close by, though not at the appointment with you. I believe you will be okay.

((((((SG))))))

J

((((( Strummergirl )))))

I can’t come up with anything more helpful than AG and Jones have so clearly (as always!) written. I can only agree that you check out with this T your fears because of the last horrendous experience with ex-T. I do understand how scary it is and the fear of the same thing happening again - but I also see you are courageous, in touch with yourself and a pretty dab hand at picking up on things that could be destructive to you - so maybe you could depend on your innate self affirming strengths and go in knowing you can protect yourself if you have to?

Got to rush now sorry - just wanted you to know I’m in there with you! I so hope it goes well for you - let us know the outcome?

Lamplighter

Thanks AG, Jones, and Lamplighter for your kind and supportive words. I just got back from the session and it went really, really well and I can't wait to tell you and everyone else about it so here it goes.

He asked if I had any questions from last time. I said I was wondering how he uses attachment theory in marriage counseling. He described the training he’s gone through - that he just completed a 2-year certification for attachment in 5-12 year olds, and he’s going back to be certified for infant attachment, too. Then he explained how as adults we use those same attachment patterns with our relationships and how he watches for that in our sessions. This dovetailed nicely with my other “burning” question for today (because I always have more, these were just the top two), which was how does he use the video recording. He said he’ll review the videos to catch anything he missed from our interactions during the session, and also to help make us more aware of the attachment patterns we aren’t aware of. And get this (especially you, AG): He said when people become aware of what they’re doing, and learn how to do it differently, they say it feels weird, and he says, I know - that’s because you just created a new neural connection!!!

And his attitude about all of this isn’t to point out what we’re doing “wrong” or to blame or make us feel bad - I didn’t get that sense at all. The way he explained it was very positive, with the goal being that my husband and I will be able to get what we need from the relationship for a change. And that feels good to hear, because obviously we aren't getting our needs met right now. So it's all good.

He asked why and what I’ve been reading about attachment. I very briefly explained how I got started reading about it (talked about this board in very general terms, and especially AG and her T). He asked what I’ve read about it because there is a lot of pseudo-stuff on the internet. Well he just happened to have a copy of Parenting From the Inside Out sitting on the table (I don’t think it was there last week, or if it was, I didn’t see it) so I said that’s one of the ones I’m reading right now. Of course he was glad to hear that and said it was a very good book. And I couldn’t think of anything else specific right then because I got nervous worrying that my reading would be seen as “bad” (like it was at the other clinic), so AG I know you’re going to want to kick me (like I wanted to kick myself later ) but I completely blanked out on General Theory of Love and Drama of the Gifted Child, my two favorite books. I didn’t see them on his shelf but next time I get the chance I will tell him about those two for sure.

He asked more questions about what I’m hoping to get out of the therapy. He really seemed to understand what I was saying without me having to say it all…I love it when that happens. Especially on my way out. I had talked a little about how running into my ex-BF was really the catalyst for all of this, how it got me looking to attachment issues as the root cause of that and also possibly our marriage and parenting stuff. And of course I felt like I hadn’t explained it very well because I was trying to keep it brief, and felt like I left so much out. But he said it sounds like the attachment I had to the old BF was a very intense and important one, right when I really needed someone, and the pull must have been very strong to reconnect with my attachment figure (and it WAS terribly strong). And then he said that from what he’s learned of me so far, it looks like when faced with temptation, instead of giving in to that, I try to work it out by seeking therapy and reading books and writing and trying to figure out what is going on. And he likes to see that. I cannot tell you how much it means to me that he sees this, and doesn’t just dismiss what I’m telling him as “your just obsessed” and I should just ignore it and focus on other things.

Something else very unexpected, but very welcome, happened. I had been very, very worried that I would have that unbalanced feeling without my husband there. From the very first individual session with my former T, I felt a strong current of seduction in the room. I felt like there was a laser sighted on my forehead, like I was being circled, or hunted. Sorry I know that sounds extreme. But I thought I felt that way because I was so unhappy in my marriage, that I was imagining the seduction because I was so desperate to feel “wanted“. Since the therapy with him ended, I’ve talked to several people about the things that were said and decisions that were made, and I’ve received consistent feedback that it was his stuff that got in the way, that he needs to do his own work. I even went through my journal and listed all the inappropriate and suggestive and seductive “bombs“ that he dropped into the conversations, in an effort to convince myself of the feedback I was getting. But deep down I was still pretty sure I had caused it or imagined it somehow. And, well, IMO this new T is attractive, so that’s why I was so afraid to go in today…because I was so afraid I was going to cause that air of seduction to be there again, and I was going to ruin the therapy, again.

Well, guess what? IT WASN‘T THERE!!! This T even asked me at one point how our sex life is going, and I was able to talk about what I think are the important, and quite personal, details (as openly as I ever can, anyway) without feeling even a hint of seduction or fear whatsoever! So I left feeling pretty great.

So even though I didn’t bring my concerns up directly with him, just the experience itself has resolved my concerns on so many levels. I may not get the chance to tell him, simply because I don’t think we’ll have the time with the focus really being on the couples therapy, but you can bet I’ll be telling my individual T all about it so she can celebrate with me. And I'm telling you so you can celebrate with me too, if you want to. And I can’t emphasize enough how relieved and grateful I am. It’s like another huge part of a burden I didn’t even know I was still carrying has been lifted from my shoulders.

Big sigh…I think it’s really going to be okay after all. Thanks so much everyone for being here. I don't know what I would do without you!!!!!

Cheers,
SG

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Strummergirl,

(((((SG)))))))
Woohoo!!! Happy Dance!!!!! I have no time, I have to head out and go home and pack but this made my heart glad to read, especially your realization that there was no air of seduction and that it WASN'T your fault with your former T. Major major breakthrough, not to mention telling you that this T is safe. I can definitely understand why you're feeling so optimistic. And no kicking for forgetting General Theory of Love, not even the HTML slapper set on tickle.

I think you did an amazing job, thank you so much for sharing with us!!

AG

Yay Strummergirl!!! That is so good to hear and I’m especially moved by your finally being able to see that the seduction vibes with your other T had NOTHING to do with you!! It sounds like you are making huge strides ahead and all sorts of things are coming together for you. WAY TO GO!

Lamplighter

Yay SG!!! That is great. Reading about your experience was moving. I agree with the others, it had to be validating to feel what wasn't there with this T. It wasn't you with former T!

quote:

And then he said that from what he’s learned of me so far, it looks like when faced with temptation, instead of giving in to that, I try to work it out by seeking therapy and reading books and writing and trying to figure out what is going on. And he likes to see that.

SG I'm so happy for you but what you wrote above really thrilled me to hear. I have huge respect for Ts who are not threatened by an intelligent client who is looking for insight into her situation and is willing to work hard in therapy. He sounds like someone who will keep his own stuff out of the sessions and focus on you and your needs and your dh's needs too.

I was very interested to learn that there are certifications for attachment that a T can get. This sounds really good for what you need and don't worry about forgetting the books you've read, you have lots of time to introduce ideas and knowledge from those sources and I believe he will be very receptive to hearing it, unlike your ex-T who was so threatened by your intelligence.

This sounds so good and I'm hoping that it continues and you continue to feel safe and cared for there and able to do the work you want to do. As an aside, I also had a very strong attachment to someone in the past. Losing this person from my life was very very painful and I'm still working on resolving it in therapy so I really do get what you are referring to.

So lots of hugs and congratulations for facing your fears and coming out on the other side with such good news!

TN

Hi everyone,

I feel bad for posting again about this especially when I haven’t been responding to many of the other posts lately…but I’m really stressing out again.

Yesterday my husband had his individual appointment with the couples T. Later I asked him how it went – told him I wasn’t asking for specifics, just wanted to know if it had gone well. He did end up telling me some specifics anyway. The thing that's worrying me is that the couples T asked him what happened between me and my former T. And the way my husband answered...let's just say it's not the way I would have said it. So the T said we are going to need to talk about that and he’s going to bring it up at our next session.

Now I’m spinning out about this. One thing is I’m wondering why he didn’t ask me this in my individual session. He mentioned it very briefly as an aside, said it would have been good if you could have worked through that, but that’s just “the way it is”…and then went on to another subject. Which felt a little dismissive but was fine with me overall because I really didn’t want to get into it, and read it as reluctance on his part to get into it too. But now I’m trying to think of exactly the right way to explain what happened without deluging him with information, and without jumping around and getting emotional and leaving important stuff out.

But ALL of it is important to me. So my first idea was to put every single detail down, assemble it in report form, label it “What Happened” and bring it with me. But that looks like I’m on a mission to get my former T in trouble, which isn’t the case at all. The other side of the spectrum is to be as minimalist as possible, or even just go with what the clinic said, that my feelings got in the way and leave it at that. Or maybe say I would take it a little further and say, I think his feelings ABOUT my feelings are what really got in the way. Or maybe just say it just wasn’t a good fit. Or maybe just say I don’t want to talk about it anymore, I’ve worked through my feelings with my current T, there’s already a release in place if he wants to talk to her, and I’m willing to sign a release if he wants to talk to the clinic, and now I want to do marriage counseling please!!

I can’t think of how to answer this without feeling like I’m on trial. Anything I say is suspect because I’m the patient…but if I don’t say anything, then that’s suspect too. If I don’t say anything, then I’m sure to be hiding something. If I say too much, then I sound like an arrogant know-it-all. This is actually why I wanted him to talk to my current T, so he could get her professional take on it. And then he could talk to the clinic and get “the other side” of the story, and then make his own decision, instead of me feeling like I have to “prove” that I’m not a risky patient.

This next session supposed to be the session where we go over everything we’ve told him, and he gives us his take on where our marriage stands and his recommendations for treatment. I was so happy to feel so safe around this guy and was really looking forward to doing the couples therapy with him. But now I’m feeling really anxious that he’s not going to want to give us therapy because he’s going to think I’m too much of a risk, too much trouble.

In my individual session, he made the remark that I’ve been “therapized”, that I’m a “veteran”, right before he asked one of his questions. It didn’t sound like he thought it was a good thing.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas about how to keep it short and sweet, what needs to be said and what doesn’t.

Thanks,
SG

Hi SG,

I'm not in any position to give advice on your situation, just wanted to offer a hug. (((((SG))))) I feel for you here. I would be leaning toward leaving it up to my current T and the other T's office to inform the marriage T and stay out of it unless he insists. Sounds like he doesn't like the fact that you're an 'informed' client and know your 'stuff' when it comes to therapy. Gotta love that! What do they expect, that we're all just brain-washable idiots and come to them ready to accept whatever they throw at us? Some of us want to get our money's worth and know what we're in for and how to make the most of it. I feel for you. I wish you the best and hope that things work out for you. Keep us posted for sure, as I'm interested to find out what happens. I hope everything works to your advantage. Good luck!!

MTF

(((( Strummergirl ))))

Couldn’t read your post without wanting to say something even if only to tell you you’ve got loads of support and sympathy from me.

But of course that’s not all! Reading through what you’d written I had an immediate not quite red flag but big doubt - though I’m assuming the couples T hasn’t said anything directly to you about discussing your ex-T in next session.

In the first place (as you have rightly felt) what is the T doing discussing with your husband the situation with your ex-T? Is it possible that your husband brought it up rather than the T? What you’ve been told is your husband’s take on his session and also it’s your husband telling you the T wants to discuss it next session - I have to say that with the best will in the world your H may very well be reporting back a distorted interpretation of what actually was said.

To me it seems much more likely that your T may have said something about discussing this subject in your next couples session in order to address your husband’s concerns and not because he himself has any concerns about it. I can so relate to something like this throwing all your positive feelings about the couples therapy out the window and replacing them with doubt and fear. Is it possible you could press your H to be more specific about exactly what was said and the context in which it was said?

From what you said about your individual meeting with this T, and the positive feelings you had about him, I’d be surprised if there is anything remotely threatening in this - so I really hope you don’t get too caught up in having to be defensive about the situation with your ex-T. Having said that it makes sense that you prepare something at least so you won’t feel put on the spot if the discussion does become accusatory or threatening in any way. Referring him to the clinic and your own T may not be the best way of dealing with it because it almost puts you in the position of claiming the 5th Amendment! You probably really do need to have something prepared if only to get it clear in your own mind if you need to talk about it.

I hope the session is SOON as no matter what, the doubt is now in your mind and if you’re anything like me it will eat you up until you get in there and are able to find out exactly what’s going on.

Big hugs to you SG.

Lamplighter

SG,

I am not really in a position to give advice about this either, but I do agree with what LL and MTF said. I just wanted to let you know that I definitely feel for you with the situation you are in. I think LL may definitely be onto something and I hope that it all works itself out soon. ((((SG)))))

Going out on a limb here... Maybe the T asked your husband this question because he wanted to know if/how the "event" impacted your husband? Like did he have simmering resentments from this happening, did your H have any concerns about working with a male T again, etc. Maybe he was just trying to get a read on you husband, not get the "inside scoop" on what exactly happened between you and the ex-T.

I would say just give it to him short and sweet, you had feelings, he didn't handle it well, they booted you. I really don't think he sees you as a "risky" patient.

SG, I'm always happy to see you posting about your own stuff - you give such great support and care for other people, but actually vent your own stuff pretty rarely - I don't believe that there's any kind of necessary ratio anyone needs to stick to, we all benefit from either kind of post, but still. It's really nice to see you taking a little something for yourself.

I can see how it would really provoke a spin to hear that he asked your husband about your stuff when he didn't go into it in depth with you. I wonder if your reaction - feeling like you're 'on trial' and having anxiety about the right way to respond - is a result of the feeling that you have been cut out of the discussion about something that until now has been just yours to deal with (with your own t, too).

Maybe there's some fear that you will be exposed and judged as the 'bad' person who had feelings outside your marriage? That there will be an alliance between your husband and the couples T about it... and that alliance implicitly includes the old T too, who also judged you for those feelings - and who showed you that if you were 'guilty' you could be cut off, left in the wilderness.

Sorry, not trying to make you feel worse here!!! But I do really get how threatening this situation is (partly because 'feelings outside marriage' is unfortunately really familiar ground to me ). I can see you trying to get it under control with the perfect response.

I agree with others that your t very likely is interested in this situation from the perspective of what role it plays in your marriage. It will play a role for both you and your husband, so I think it's sensible that he checked out your h's feelings about it too. It may be that when he talked to you about it, it sounded resolved so he moved on, but when he talked to your h about it, less so - which is what put it on the agenda.

But if he is worth his salt as a t, then he will know that these things happen within the context of the marriage as an emotional system - not because one partner is bad or failing. If he is any good, he will have no interest in judging you, but will support you both in coming to understand this experience in such a way that it makes your marriage stronger.

It is hard to imagine that he will see you as a 'risk'. That would be pretty weird, given that you are there to work on your marriage, given the kind of work he does and given that you have a strong, stable relationship with an individual t. You're not a risk.

I think if you can get to a place where you feel calm about this, maybe you won't have to plan what to say - you might be able to just feel and say the truth at whatever level is appropriate for the conversation as it comes up. Don't forget you can use the 'meta' talking, talking about talking about it, as a way to manage it - e.g. 'It was a complex situation and I'm not sure how much you want me to go into it now' or 'I feel pretty weird summing this up, because I've done so much work on this on my own.'

(((((((((((((SG))))))))))))) Keep us posted.

J