Hi MTF,
That's an amazing book but very heavy going. There were whole sections where I was gonzo confused and just moved on but there's a lot of really good information in there, especially the whole concept of mentalizing.

Disorganized attachment is used to describe someone without a consistent attachment style. Sometimes they will use avoidant strategies and at other times behaviors associated with anxious attachment. In addition to both of those though, there is also a "freezing" or disassociation. This style is usually shown by people who have suffered abuse at the hands of an attachment figure. There was not consistent behavior displayed by the AF (sometimes they took care of you, sometimes they hurt you) so the child is unable to develop a consistent way of dealing with them. That's what the freezing and/or disassociating is about, the child would literally be at such a loss as to how to handle it that they would just hold still and/or go away so as not to have to make a choice.

I know with my T I have exhibited both avoidant behavior of not wanting him to matter and wanting to flee the relationship alternating with terror that he wouldn't be there and needing to contact him, sometimes multiple times between appts to make sure he was still there. These behaviors could flip flop back and forth at a really high rate, sometimes within minutes of each other.

Hope that helps, if you want anything clarified or expanded on, just ask.

AG

Thanks, AG!!

quote:

I know with my T I have exhibited both avoidant behavior of not wanting him to matter and wanting to flee the relationship alternating with terror that he wouldn't be there and needing to contact him, sometimes multiple times between appts to make sure he was still there. These behaviors could flip flop back and forth at a really high rate, sometimes within minutes of each other.

So I have felt both these extremes myself, just not to the extent that I have called my T multiple times between sessions, although I have wished I could!! My T is not really as generous about phone calls as your T, although I know she would call me back if I called her; she always does. I have a lot of shame about calling her. I also don't like her knowing that I have such a strong attachment to her and have yet to reveal my actual feelings in a session. She knows I have an attachment, but we've never really discussed my personal feelings. I don't know that I want to yet, as she'd just tell me that it's about my primary relationships is what I 'think' would happen. She has said she's willing to talk about it, but I guess I have a really good idea of where it would end up going. Anyway, I do feel that flip flop thing happen. There are times when I get scared that my T can't handle me and I need to leave and find a new T, or I want to cancel sessions because I don't want to face her anymore. Then I feel I can't survive without her and I go into depression and spin about her and how I have X amount of days until my session, or stuff like that, and what will I say to her, can I tell her about the spinning, etc. It's awful. Does this sound like disorganized attachment to you? I do have a history of abuse and neglect, mostly emotional, but some physical, and abandonment issues as well.

As I've been reading these chapters on the different attachment styles I've been thinking, "I don't really fit in dismissing, or preoccupied, but have some of both." The unresolved seems to fit the best and I'm guessing so far that this is like disorganized? I want to read the whole book, but yeah, Dr. Wallin is about ten miles over my head in some of the parts I've read so far. My nervous system is pretty dysregulated right now, so reading books and staying with them is hard anyway! One day I'll hopefully get through it. Still trying to read "General Theory of Love". My T wants to borrow it when I'm finished and I'm still at the start of chapter 2. That book is challenging for me!!

Anyway, thanks for the reponse!! You're always so good to answer all the technical stuff. How are things going for you, anyway? How's the crisis line, and how is your own therapy going? Are you still working on ending therapy, or just taking it a session at a time?

MTF

quote:

She knows I have an attachment, but we've never really discussed my personal feelings. I don't know that I want to yet, as she'd just tell me that it's about my primary relationships is what I 'think' would happen. She has said she's willing to talk about it, but I guess I have a really good idea of where it would end up going. Anyway, I do feel that flip flop thing happen. There are times when I get scared that my T can't handle me and I need to leave and find a new T, or I want to cancel sessions because I don't want to face her anymore. Then I feel I can't survive without her and I go into depression and spin about her and how I have X amount of days until my session, or stuff like that, and what will I say to her, can I tell her about the spinning, etc. It's awful. Does this sound like disorganized attachment to you? I do have a history of abuse and neglect, mostly emotional, but some physical, and abandonment issues as well.

Hi MTF,
It sounds like disorganized attachment to me because I've experienced all the feelings you're talking about. I cannot begin to tell you how hard my T worked to convince me that not only COULD I call but that it was theraputic to do so, that I needed to learn to ask for what I needed and experience it being met and also experience that there really was a dependable other I could trust. I was so desperate to not lose my T but was absolutely amazed at my creative abilities in finding reasons I HAD to leave. Every time I moved closer it would rear it's head and I would have to deal with it. I remember one time being really upset about the thought of leaving therapy but when I really stopped and looked at how I felt, I realized I was terrified to stay. I had never been so close to someone before with intact boundaries and it just didn't feel right. Either he needed to abuse or abandon me so at least I could know that I was facing something familiar. The fact that he steadfastly calmly refused to do either scared the socks off me. Part of what I'm trying to convey is that although I can explain what is happening so clearly, that's only in retrospect. At the time and as I go through it, it's painful, chaotic and really confusing.

I know how scary it can be to talk to your T about this stuff. I am VERY blessed to have my T. He stays utterly calm and accepting no matter what feelings I bring to him. One thing I have really appreciated is the fact that he doesn't like the word transference. He's always recognized that my feelings were real, and even that my attraction to him is partially based on my adult self in the here and now. (OK funny aside, once when we were discussing my feelings, he was telling me that part of it was that maybe I was just attracted to him and he was trying to come up with reasons why but being very humble was stumbling all over the place and finally I said to him "well, your wife did marry you!" He actually kind of blushed which I enjoyed very much because he so RARELY loses his composure.) But at the same time, we can also follow my feelings, and see the pattern in them that allows me to go back and see where and how I learned my beliefs and why I think the way I do. He holds both in place really well. One of the most healing things that he has done for me is to totally understand and accept just how central he is to who I am, how important he is to me, and how deeply I love him. He doesn't shy away from it, even while he maintains crystal clear boundaries. He really does have a gift.

But it's still been scary EVERY time I've talked to him about my feelings for him. But over time, as I've experienced him NOT changing no matter what I've told him, I've really come to understand and believe on a "gut" level that I can talk to him about anything. That he really meant what he said about any and all of my feelings being welcome in his office. They will not be acted on, but all of them can be heard and understood. OK that went on for much longer than I intended.

Thanks for asking about how things are going. Therapy has been going really well and I've stretched my sessions out to every two weeks. The first time I did I realized that I missed my T but really didn't need him. Which made me sad. We talked about all those feelings and I finally got up the nerve to ask him something I should have asked a long time ago. What was his policy about contact after I stopped coming? His answer was swift and very matter of fact, with a "why did you have to ask" kind of air. I told him that I realized it would be difficult at first after I left and that i would want to call but at the same time I wouldn't be paying him so it seemed like an imposition. He looked at me and very gently said "But AG you can ALWAYS call me, that never changes." I didn't realize how scared I had been until I heard that answer, I literally burst into tears. So it's finally sinking in that I have grown enough to need to stand on my own for a while and that he'll be there no matter what. I may not see him, but I will carry him with me wherever I go. He is a part of me in a way I can't remove even if I wanted to. And its going to hurt to leave, but he's the one who taught me how to handle the pain and be ok. And his door is open. So my plan at this point is to continue with appts every other week, with an eye towards ending in the end of August or beginning of September.

The volunteer work is going great, my third and final apprenticeship shift was awesome and I've been greenlighted. I start doing solo shifts the end of this month (they schedule a month ahead so it was pretty full by the time I was able to sign up.) It's been incredibly fulfilling and I'm looking so forward to doing it on a regular basis. The best part was that there was one trainer I felt really drawn to and just clicked with and I was debating asking the director for her email but you know the self doubt thing we do? "I'll probably be bugging her, the little trainee running after the trainer, why would she want to spend time with me?" and a half an hour later I got an email from her that she was interested in getting together! So awesome to be able to experience that someone I liked liked me!! This is one of the very few places I don't feel utterly silly admitting this.

AG

AG it's wonderful to see you here posting!

MTF, I also have disorganized attachment style. AG explains it very well. And the "unresolved" classification Wallin uses IS disorganzied attachment. I have read his book too and have given it to my T to read. I also have a CD set of a seminar that Wallin gives which is 12 hours. I'm working on that now. There is a lot of difficult stuff to understand but some of it is plain amazing how it describes and makes sense of attachment injury and how one can strive for "earned" attachment through therapy.

I, too, would alternate between wanting to cling to my T and finding all kinds of creative excuses to run from him. It seems that every other week I was telling him I could not come back, that this was too hard and I needed to quit or whatever.... and then next week I was sobbing that I knew he wanted me to leave, that he wished I would just go away etc. It see-sawed back and forth so fast at times that whip-lash was a real danger!

Abuse suffered at the hands of a parent or caregiver who is supposed to nurture you and be there for you causes the disorganzized attachment. Once I discovered this and shared this knowledge with my T we started to make progress in therapy. Things started to fall into place and it became much clearer why I was trying to run away all the time while never wanting to leave him. It also helped him to understand some of my feelings for him and why I had them.

This has been a journey of growth for both of us as my T has no experience in attachment or complex trauma. We are learning together and while this may bother or annoy some patients for me having this collaboration with him really works. We are both really committed to making it work and to my healing.

I think sharing this information with your T is a good idea. It's definitely worth exploring.

TN

quote:

Originally posted by True North:
I, too, would alternate between wanting to cling to my T and finding all kinds of creative excuses to run from him. It seems that every other week I was telling him I could not come back, that this was too hard and I needed to quit or whatever.... and then next week I was sobbing that I knew he wanted me to leave, that he wished I would just go away etc. It see-sawed back and forth so fast at times that whip-lash was a real danger!
TN

Oh this is sooooo familiar. I am stuck in the middle of this right now. Thankfully though, I am beginning to recognize the pattern - not necessarily right away but at least after I come down a bit from the spinning. I can really relate to finding reasons to push her away and then feeling like I am the one who has been rejected. I start to freak out when I am feeling connected and search for some bit of evidence that she is rejecting me or find all the reasons I need to leave because sitting in that place where I am feeling connected is just too hard and too scary. Wallin's book has been really helpful! And so glad to hear that I am not the only one who found some sections a little over my head. I would love to give it to my T, but don't want to appear bossy, or like I think she needs help on the subject. Maybe one of these days I will. I am going to have to check into that seminar CD set and General Theory of Love.

AG - I often experience that desperate feeling of "is she still there" and today it has been huge - would really love to know she is still there right now, but can't bring myself to even email on Sat night. I guess it's that safe-base concept. I am so entangled in this attachment mess with my T (analyzing, researching, obsessing, etc.)that it feels impossible to do anything else much of the time. Thanks for continuing to post here - you give me so much hope that it can be different for me someday, too. So happy to read that "someone liked you" as you put it - but I am certain I am not alone when I say I am not surprised!!

Hi All,

I have a questions about attachment, or lack thereof.

Last session, after recounting a conversation I had with my mother about my childhood, my T hypothesized that my mother lacked any kind of real desire, passion or joy in herself, that she was literally selfless, and therefor there was very little of that for me to connect with; very little there from which to build a healthy self of my own. So things like lots of eye contact, lots of laughing and smiling at and with each other, lots of cuddling...I can't honestly say there was much of any of that with her. And of course, my father was, as my mother put it, "like a ghost."

My T concluded by saying, "this is really a problem of love."

My T's characterization of my mom is accurate, because my mother is so reserved and repressed, and she rarely - if ever - is outwardly joyful or ebullient about anything. She's not dour or depressive, but there's just no passion or desire for any thing in her. When I come home, I'm the one that goes to her for a hug, and when we hug, it's like there's no one there. In fact, a few years ago I began describing her as "joyless."

So, I understand all this. Makes perfect sense. Now what? I can't go back in time and somehow get a healthy attachment. I can't re-create it with my T because, 1. he's not my mother and, 2. he's a man. I asked my T the same question: now what? How do you fix this. He said something like, "you see with it total clarity, and go through it." Well, I don't know what the hell that means, but whatever...

I also struggle to believe that an incomplete attachment to my mother could result in what I've been going through for the past two years...essentially a chronic and unrelenting head fog of anxiety. I'm sure there's other things at play, but man, who spends two years feeling this way? When I'm in this place, I feel like the most broken person who ever lived.

So it kind of feels like a life sentence. And in the meantime, I'm stuck in this hellish place where I can't go toward a relationship and I can't walk away. I guess that right there would be disorganized attachment?

I appreciate any feedback.

Thanks so much,
Russ

Russ, my heart just goes out to you. How painful it must have been to have a joyless mother and a ghost of a father. I have a similar setup in my family, and I have to say to you that it is the boys in my family (now men) who seem to have suffered under this more than the girls. (women) I am from a very large family. My brothers are suffering individuals. I have a sister with an anxiety disorder that is debilitating for her, she has to take meds to function because of separation at birth for about a month. My other sisters are relationship-less or frantically searching to fill that need with alchohol, sex, you name it. Myself, I make a decision to have a stable life even if it killed me, and it almost did- but I am always depressed, on and off, I struggle with alchohol addiction, and just a constant pervasive sense of sadness and longing that never goes away. This shows up especially in the context of my therapy, where I am forced to feel it whether I want to or not. I guess what I am saying is that this stuff has a terrible effect on children, and that little boy you were, did not deserve that, Russ. I do not, cannot, believe that this is a life sentence, for you Russ- you are bravely working towards your healing. I think your T is probably talking about the grieving and acceptance of the reality of what you are suffering- the truth is that you are suffering, and must somehow, learn to breathe through the pain you are enduring. It is very hard. I hear in your post, the longing to have a normal romantic relationship...and I believe that will happen for someone like you. You are working hard, Russ, and not settling for a facade of a relationship- I SO admire you for that, it takes a lot of strength and courage to push for the real thing and wait for the right time, instead of diving in before you are ready in hopes of easing the pain you are suffering. It is hellish to feel alienated and isolated, and it sounds to me like you are in the middle of experiencing what you did as a little boy. So, be kind to yourself, just as you would a little child, Russ. You deserve tenderness, respect, and love, and I believe you will find it when the time is right for you. Be patient with yourself. It is so hard not to rush ourselves in this difficult process, isn't it?
May I cyber hug you?

((((Russ))))

BB

all, yes, it is hard to connect to a 'non-person', and that is what i think many of these mothers were. it is really sad the damage that takes place, and i would think we all can trace the few, small, sick bits of love we had to cling on to live. one i recall is that my fat lip from my dad slapping me was some sort of validation of his love, BECAUSE I KNEW HE FELT BAD ABOUT IT SO THAT MUST MEAN HE LOVES ME...not that it was ever discussed, or apologized for...and i am sure the next day he did something extra nice..bought me a new pair of skates, so that MIXED message that is never resolved leads to this SHAKY ATTACHMENT and bracing for disaster way i have lived forever. but when a kid has a fat lip as a 'consilation prize' of love from her dad...i am living proof that leads to disorganized attachment.

THOSE BASTARDS DOING THAT TO KIDS...unbelievable that we are all here, that points to us being AMAZINGLY RESILIENT!! so, go hug yourself for me, everyone!!!! GO TEAM!!

dragonfly and BB,

Thanks so much for your kind words and thoughts. The encouragement and empathy I get at this place is moving beyond words, and it really does give me the will to keep going when I'm going through the kind of bad spell that I'm in right now.

To be accurate, I'm not always in this wretched head fog, but when it moves in, it can stay for weeks and weeks and it's pure hell. So, instead of feeling, say, sad or intense longing or self-hatred, I get this physical/psychological head thing, and the triggers are elusive (at least to me...T says they're right under my nose). Eventually it will dial itself back down, but it seems to take forever. This is how my mind/body responds to the stuff going on behind the scenes.

BTW, I have three sisters. I am the youngest. In age it goes: 53, 52, 49, 43. Sister #1 was in psychoanalysis for 5 years from age 25-30 and married and alcoholic (she's fine now).

Sister #2 has a fairly strange relationship with her son and daughter, but she's fine, too.

Sister #3 has had health problems her entire life, and also married an alcoholic. She and her husband are in therapy.

There's there's me, and I got my head thing.

Grieving. I guess that is part of what it is I'm doing. Or what I need to do. But I have this idea stuck in my head that before I can grieve, I have to have specific and felt memories of NOT getting what I wanted from my parents, otherwise I think it's fake or something. I don't know why I keep thinking that, but there you go. And the other issue is that my mother wasn't some evil, abusive witch who beat me or was verbally cruel to me or neglected my needs. For her own reasons, I just don't think she had what I - and every other child - needs...namely human soul, desire and outward love and affection.

But the false self doesn't like grieving, and it doesn't like anger. However, lately I have been experiencing an almost murderous rage toward my father. I mean anger I can taste. And when I see my friends connecting with their young children in real, authentic ways, it makes me cry and it makes me even more seriously f-ing mad...but not at my mother.

Ok, I'll stop ranting now. Thanks so much, everyone.
Russ

Hi Russ,

Sounds like you're in a bad spot, and since I can completely identify with you here I wanted to reply. I know the cold mother story myself, and the "problem of love". My T had me get a book right at the start of therapy called "Reinventing Your Life". It's CBT based and talks about 'lifetraps' we set for ourselves based on how we learned to cope with life as children as we dealt with the life we were subjected to. In the book there's a chapter called "The Emotional Deprivation Lifetrap". This is one of my lifetraps, and I'm going to take the liberty of assuming it would be one of yours as well because of your mother's lack of loving behavior toward you. However, here's a little quiz you can take and score, if you're interested:

Scoring Key

1 Completely untrue of me
2 Mostly untrue of me
3 Slightly more tru than untrue of me
4 Moderately true of me
5 Mostly true of me
6 Describes me perfectly

1. I need more love than I get.
2. No one really understands me.
3. I am often attracted to cold partners who can't meet my needs.
4. I feel disconnected, even from the people who are closest to me.
5. I have not had one special person I love who wants to share him/herself with me and cares deeply about what happens to me.
6. No one is there to give me warmth, holding, and affection.
7. I do not have someone who really listens and is tuned into my true needs and feelings.
8. It is hard for me to let people guide or protect me, even though it is what I want inside.
9. It is hard for me to let people love me.
10. I am lonely a lot of the time.

Scoring:
10-19 Very low. This lifetrap probably does not apply to you.
20-29 Fairly low. This lifetrap may only apply occasionally.
30-39 Moderate. This lifetrap is an issue in your life.
40-49 High. This is definitely an important lifetrap for you.
50-60 Very high. This is definitely one of your core lifetraps.

I'm going to quote a lot of the chapter from the book here for you, so happy reading. I hope it helps. The book gives some case studies as illustrations of what they're trying to get across and it's helpful, but I think you can get the idea without them.

"The origins of Emotional Deprivation:

1. Mother is cold and unaffectionate. She does not hold and rock the child enough.
2. The child does not have a sense of being loved and valued--of being someone who is precious and special.
3. Mother does not give the child enough time and attention.
4. The mother is not really tuned into the child's needs. She has difficulty empathizing withthe child's world. She does not really connect with the child.
5. Mother does not soothe the child adequately. The child, then, may not learn to soothe him/herself or to accept soothing from others.
6. The parents do not adequately guide the child or provide a sense of direction. There is no one solid for the child to rely upon."

So here are the danger signals of what to watch for in people you are dating or even 'friends' that help you keep this lifetrap going and keep the emotional deprivation playing out in your life. This is key in helping yourself, as you want to avoid these types of people so you don't keep falling into this trap:

1. He/She doesn't listen to me.
2. He/She does all the talking.
3. He/She is not comfortable touching or kissing me.
4. He/She is only sporadically available.
5. He/She is cold and aloof.
6. You are much more interested in getting close than he/she is.
7. The person is not there for you when you feel vulnerable.
8. The less available he/she is, the more obesessed you become.
9. He/She does not understand your feelings.
10. You are giving much more than you are getting.

"When several of these signals are occurring at once, RUN!--particularly if the chemistry is very strong. Your lifetrap has been triggered full force." This is super hard, because all your yearning will be directed toward staying in the relationship.

The emotional deprivation lifetraps in a relationship look like this:

1. You don't tell the other person what you need, then feel disappointed when your needs are not met.
2. You don't tell the other person how you feel, and then feel disappointed when you are not understood.
3. You don't allow yourself to be vulnerable, so that your partner can protect or guide you.
4. You feel deprived, but you don't say anything. You harbor resentment.
5. You become angry and demanding.
6. You constantly accuse your partner of not caring enough about you.
7. You become distant and unreachable.

Okay, so now I come to the part of how you do something about this. How you can change the emotional deprivation lifetrap. I think this is what your T is talking about Russ when he says "you see with it total clarity, and go through it.":

"1. Understand your childhood deprivation. Feel the deprived child inside of you. Understanding is always the first step. You must come to terms with the truth of what happened to you as a child. There are three kinds of emotional deprivation: a)deprivation of nurturance; b)deprivation of empathy; c)deprivation of protection. Each kind of deprivation refers to a different aspect of love.

The first step toward understanding your childhood deprivation is to vreate images. Go to a quiet, private place and allow images of your childhood to float to the top of your mind. Experience the memories fully, with all the emotions that you felt at the time. Experience the images, then study them. Generate images for each parent. Include all other close members of your family to get a full picture.

2. Monitor your feelings of deprivation in your current relationships. Get in touch with your needs for nurturane, empathy, and guidance. Become more aware of your felings of deprivation in your current life. Teach yourself to notive when your lifetrap is triggered. It might be a time that you feel slighted, lonely, or empty, or that no one understands how you feel. You might feel sad that your partner is unavailable, or cold and ungiving. You might feel angry that you always have to be the strong one, that you are always the one who takes care of your partner, and it is never the other way around. Any strong feeling of deprivation can serve as a cue that your lifetrap is triggered and that you should pay attention to what is going on.

It is important that you allow yourself to feel all the emotions that get triggered along with your lifetrap. Try not to block any feelings. Explore the whole spectrum of emotions, as fully as you can.

You can use imagery to connect even further with your feelings. When some event in your current life provokes strong feelings of deprivation, relive the experience again through imagery. Allow all your feelings to emerge. Get in touch with your needs for nurturance, empathy, and protection. Then connect the image to an image in the past when you were a child and felt the same way. If you repeatedly alternate between the present and the past in thie manner, you will be able to deepen your awareness of the ways you reenact your childhood deprivation in your current relationships.

3. Review past relationships, and clarify the patterns that recur. List the pitfalls to avoid from now on. Make a list of the mnost important relationships in your life. You may want to focus on romantic relationships, or you may want to focus on family or close friends. Think about what went wrong with each relationship. Was the person unable or unwilling to meet your needs? Did you drive him/her away with your incessant demands, which, when filled, never made a difference anyway? Did you grow bored with someone who was treating you well? Were you in fact getting more from the relationship than you acknowledged at the time? What is the unifying principle of your list? What are the pitfalls for you to avoid?

4. Avoid cold partners who generate high chemistry. This is that simple rule that is so hard to follow. Do not get involved with depriving partners/people. The rule is so hard to follow because these are precisely the parteners who attract you the most. we often give patients this rule-of-thumb: If you meet someone for whom you feel a high degree of chimeisty, rate how much chemistry on a 0 to 10 scale. If you rate the person a 9 or 10, then think twice about becoming involved with this person. Occasionally, such relationships work out, after a great deal of turmoil. But, more often, the strong chemistry you feel will be based on lifetraps that they trigger in you, rather than positive qualities that will make the relationship last.

We are not saying that you have to settle for spending the rest of your life with a partner who only generates a response of 0-5 in you. We feel that there has to be some chemistry for the relationship to work. But, if there is only romantic chemistry, it almost certainly will NOT work in the long run. There are plenty of 6s, 7s, and 8s out there. One of them might bring you the deep fulfillment of an intimate, loving relationship, perhaps for the first time in your life.

5. When you find a partner who is emotionally generous, give the relationship a chance to work. ASK for what you want. Share your vulnerability with your partner. When you get into a healthy relationship, give it a chance. Many times people with this lifetrap feel bored and dissatisfied in healthy relationships, and they want to walk away. Do not walk away so fast, even if the relationship seems unexciting. Maybe you just need to get used to the strange sensation of having your emotional needs met.

6. Stop blaming your partner and demanding that your needs be met. Do not harbor resentment. Express your needs directly to your partner. When you are angry, tell your partner how you feel. Do it calmly, without blame. Below the anger is a feeling of hurt, of vulnerability. Share that with your partner. If you show only the angry, demanding surface, you will drive your partner away and make it less liely that he or she can meet your needs. Becoming angry and demanding is self-defeating. It rarely works. You almost NEVER end up feeling better--thinkgs just get worse and worse.

Much of what we are saying comes down to communication. If you want a relationship to work, you have to be willingto communicate your thoughts and feelings to your partner. You have to share yourself. You have to connect.

The Outlook for Change:

It is not easy to change. As we have said before, it is in your hands. To a large extent, how much you change is a function of how hard you work and persist. Your Emotional Deprivation lifetrapwill not fall away suddenly. It is a matter of slowly chipping away at the lifetrap--of countering the lifetrap each time it is triggered. you must throw your whole being against the lifetrap--your thoughts, feelings, and behavior.

It is sad that the more you were damaged as a child, the harder you will have to work. This is one more unfairness in the string of unfairnesses against you."


Anyway, hope there aren't too many typos, and that you can glean something of use from all of that. The book's written by a couple of Ph.D.s that practice in NYC (Jeffrey E. Young and Janet S. Klosko). It's more useful if you can read it with the case studies, but I hope some of this was helpful.

This lack of love in our childhoods is tough to deal with as adults, I know. It has screwed up my friendships, marriage, and of course has affected my relationship with my own children, which heaps lots of guilt on me as a mother myself. My T hasn't been super helpful in this department, but she has told me that I have to focus on my primary relationships and improving and healing them to overcome this deprivation in my life. I don't know what that means for you, but I do know it's tough stuff! Good luck, Russ!! I hope you can get things sorted out, as that chronic head fog you're talking about really sucks. I know because I have the same issue myself, although it's getting a bit better. Hopefully you'll get some better help from some more knowledgeable folks here.

MTF

Russ,

I too have a hard time being angry at my mother, even though she is the one that caused a lot of the deprivation in my life. My father was also a 'ghost' in my life, never around, abusive verbally and emotionally, sometimes physically when he was around. I can be more angry at him. I just have a hard time getting in touch with anger at my parents, period. It's tough because I KNOW I am supposed to feel that anger in order to heal. But how do you do that??? That's the part I am stuck on. I'm glad you're able to feel something and cry about it. Grieving is a good thing, even though it is difficult and painful. You are on the right road!!

MTF

MTF,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I read your comments (my score on the quiz is: "30-39 Moderate. This lifetrap is an issue in your life,") but what stands out for me is this:

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5. When you find a partner who is emotionally generous, give the relationship a chance to work. ASK for what you want. Share your vulnerability with your partner. When you get into a healthy relationship, give it a chance. Many times people with this lifetrap feel bored and dissatisfied in healthy relationships, and they want to walk away. Do not walk away so fast, even if the relationship seems unexciting. Maybe you just need to get used to the strange sensation of having your emotional needs met.

Here's what triggered my entire ordeal. I was in a relationship with a woman who was emotionally generous, kind, loving, understanding, compassionate and valued intimacy and affection very highly.

That's not what the problem was. Here's the problem. As soon as she made it clear that she would like me to offer the same things to her, to become an active participant in an ADULT relationship, I freaked. I ran. It's like someone holding a gun to my head. I broke up with her.

BUT, then I couldn't let go. I wanted to remain "friends." In other words, I wanted a one-sided, platonic relationship where I got my emotional, soothing needs met, and she got none of her physical, intimacy, affection needs met. I wouldn't move into the relationship because it scared me to death for reasons that are still unknown, and I couldn't leave because I'd finally found someone I half-way connected with.

So, it's very complicated, but it's a bind that is somehow tied up with this attachment situation with my mother, and it's a semi-conscious, raging conflict. My T calls it "passive dependence," meaning I want my needs met without having to be an active participant in a partnership. It took about a year to admit this, but it's true.

Thanks again,

Russ

Russ:

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So, instead of feeling, say, sad or intense longing or self-hatred, I get this physical/psychological head thing, and the triggers are elusive (at least to me...T says they're right under my nose). Eventually it will dial itself back down, but it seems to take forever. This is how my mind/body responds to the stuff going on behind the scenes.

It must be very difficult to function in this state. I think I have an inkling of how it feels, but I'm not sure. How does it feel? Your T says the triggers are right under your nose...do you have any idea what they might be, or are you clued out? I am clued out to what puts me into the bad place, and I would like to know so that I can deal with it head on when I see it coming kwim?

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Grieving. I guess that is part of what it is I'm doing. Or what I need to do. But I have this idea stuck in my head that before I can grieve, I have to have specific and felt memories of NOT getting what I wanted from my parents, otherwise I think it's fake or something. I don't know why I keep thinking that, but there you go.

It's almost like you feel your grief is made up or unjustifed unless you have some horrible felt memory of bad experience, and preferably, lots of them? If that's what it is, I relate. I have bad memories and good memories, and no felt sense that I suffered as a child. But the evidence (that therapy caused this massive attachment to my T, that I have much in common with people with known trauma backgrounds, etc) even though I did not suffer horrific abuse, still I must have suffered. It's easier to remember things from my teen years. The complete neglect and social isolation from that period, I can feel and even resent. And the complete denial that anything was wrong with that setup still really bugs me, and I wish it could be resolved. But not so much from when I was younger and these things tend to form us. I remember being alone in very dangerous situations from a small child.

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And the other issue is that my mother wasn't some evil, abusive witch who beat me or was verbally cruel to me or neglected my needs.

So the guilt for grieving what you needed and didn't get is getting in the way of allowing yourself to do it...because, if your mother had been some kind of evil abuser/neglector, then and only then, would you be justified in grieving for little Russ not getting his very real emotional needs met? But because she tired and failed, you are not allowed to grieve? hm, just thoughts, I could be way off base...let me know what you think.

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But the false self doesn't like grieving, and it doesn't like anger. However, lately I have been experiencing an almost murderous rage toward my father. I mean anger I can taste. And when I see my friends connecting with their young children in real, authentic ways, it makes me cry and it makes me even more seriously f-ing mad...but not at my mother.

I almost see my mother as a victim of my father's disinterest and willful power-lessness in the relationship. His lack of interest in fathering us children, and leaving the entire venture up to her, eventually causing two pychotic episodes for her, and never facing the reality of what his neglect for HER, did to US, makes me rage at my father, too. They were for all intents and purposes not present to eachother or to us, not really. Our existence was a pain in the butt. But it was my dad who needed to step up to the plate and be a husband and a father, and show some love and support, not just "bring home the bacon," while everyone around him was dying inside. Yeah, I am raging at my father, too Russ. It feels evil to do it, but I think he was a weenie, and it destroyed our family. Fuck him for only seeing himself.

Rant away, Russ- it's a safe place to do it.

BB

sorry about the cross-post...

Gee Russ, you're describing me to a T! I'm sorry that what I offered didn't help you. I was hoping, but it seems we're both in the same boat. "Passive dependence" is a term I hadn't heard before. Sounds about right for me. I often wonder how my husband has lived with me for almost 16 years. What a lonely and empty life, for both of us.

Let us know if you get some answers from your T ever on what to do to get through this and heal from it. I would certainly like to know. My T just says it's about my primary relationships and that I have to give and not run away but put more into them, move closer despite the discomfort, really be uncomfortable and learn to move through it until it becomes easier. It's hard. And trying to force a relationship and 'love' someone when that's not really the feeling you have is not exactly my style. Doesn't sound like yours either. So sorry.

Yes, I agree with the others. Rant away. That's what this place is here for. We're here to support you. I hope you can feel better soon! Best of luck, Russ!

MTF

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My T calls it "passive dependence," meaning I want my needs met without having to be an active participant in a partnership. It took about a year to admit this, but it's true.

Aha- BUT *you have admitted it*...and THAT right there is why I so admire you. And why I for one believe you (and you MTF) will find what you are looking for in a relationship when you are ready. In a way, Russ, it's good that you aren't in a relationship right now, because it gives you the permission to just look after your own growth and healing without the added complication of trying at the same time to look after another's needs. Keep on plugging! ( I hope you get a chance to respond to what I posted before, but no pressure!

BB

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Originally posted by blackbird:
It must be very difficult to function in this state. I think I have an inkling of how it feels, but I'm not sure. How does it feel? Your T says the triggers are right under your nose...do you have any idea what they might be, or are you clued out? I am clued out to what puts me into the bad place, and I would like to know so that I can deal with it head on when I see it coming kwim?

BB. Yes, it's very difficult to function with the wretched head fog. It defies description, but if you can imagine an actual feeling of a heavy, wet substance at the front of your skull, and the substance also feels like a kind of fear or dread and therefor squashes your spirit and your ability to feel interested in anything, well that's sort of what it feels like.

I do feel very clued out about what triggers it, but at the same time I do have an idea. I'll try to explain, and I know this is gonna sound very messed up.

So the woman I was dating when this all started is still a very close friend. We spend a lot of time together, but she's also now dating someone new. So, whenever I (or a part of me anyway) perceives that she still wants to be in a real relationship with me (which she suggests on a regular basis), the anxiety is triggered. On the flip side of that, when I know that she's spending time with her man, it gets triggered then, too, and the response is anger. And the problem is that it's very hard to know what dials it back down or why. So, I guess it's very much like an infant who is scared to death to *fully* connect with it's mother, but then becomes completely enraged when the hated male figure takes her away, and the resulting conflict causes the symptoms. Add to this the fact that it's VERY difficult for me to be angry at people I love, and the conflict is even worse.

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Originally posted by blackbird:
It's almost like you feel your grief is made up or unjustifed unless you have some horrible felt memory of bad experience, and preferably, lots of them? If that's what it is, I relate.

Yes, this is 100% correct. It's the only way to change my belief that my mother could be capable of having such deficiencies.

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So the guilt for grieving what you needed and didn't get is getting in the way of allowing yourself to do it...because, if your mother had been some kind of evil abuser/neglector, then and only then, would you be justified in grieving for little Russ not getting his very real emotional needs met? But because she tired and failed, you are not allowed to grieve? hm, just thoughts, I could be way off base...let me know what you think.

Again, 100% correct. And you just said something I don't know anyone has ever suggested to me...that she tried and failed. That may not allow me to find the anger, but it might allow me to grieve. Thank you for that.

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I almost see my mother as a victim of my father's disinterest...His lack of interest in fathering us children, and leaving the entire venture up to her, and never facing the reality of what his neglect for HER, did to US, makes me rage at my father, too. They were for all intents and purposes not present to eachother or to us, not really.

Check. Same here. I asked my mother the other night, "mom, why didn't you ever stand up for yourself. Why didn't you tell dad that things had to be different. And why didn't you defend me when he was being a jerk to me?" She said, "I didn't want to rock the boat, and I regret it to this day. I never championed you." I asked, "do you think you were intimidated by him and afraid he might leave again?" She said, "yes, I suppose I was."

My mother's main objective was to keep the family together at all costs - which is why she put up with the raging asshole who was my father. But in my mind this fact equals my mom being a perfectly competent mother (after all, it was her first priority), which then means there's something fundamentally wrong with me. It's yet another defense belief in the way of seeing the truth of the matter.

Thanks, BB.
Russ

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Originally posted by More Than Fine:
I'm sorry that what I offered didn't help you.
MTF

No, no, it did help! It made me write down what my problem is, which is something I have trouble doing.

Your Ts approach sounds very CBT:

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...move closer despite the discomfort, really be uncomfortable and learn to move through it until it becomes easier. It's hard. And trying to force a relationship and 'love' someone when that's not really the feeling you have is not exactly my style. Doesn't sound like yours either. So sorry.

I tried that on my own, and it didn't work. In fact, it triggered the whole mess. But, it was instructive in revealing what the problem is.

RUss

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But in my mind this fact equals my mom being a perfectly competent mother (after all, it was her first priority), which then means there's something fundamentally wrong with me. It's yet another defense belief in the way of seeing the truth of the matter.

This is why we need therapists. This belief, right here- among others- needs to somehow be undone in us. and it is not easy work. I too relate, to the idea that if my mother tried hard, there is something wrong with me, because it wasn't enough. I was too needy, too flawed, too *born bad* to take what she could give me and be satisfied, and grow into a giving unselfish person like other people do, who isn't passive dependent, or whatever it is. So, there is something fundamentally flawed in ME, I think, because she tried. But I can see the error of this argument, for you, Russ. People aren't just *born too needy* or *born too selfish* or born bad. We are created, basically good, right? and then over the years all this other stuff creeps in needs don't get met, we become anxious and defensive and needier. It's not something wrong with us. We are all trying to grow towards being able to give more than we currently find ourselves able to, right? I can access the anger, when I realize my parents NEVER made this journey. They were content to think it was something wrong with us kids, or ignore/deny all the problems in our lives, and that makes me feel a spark, because why am I doing this therapy journey basically for the sake of my kids, so that I don't screw with them too badly, hopefully, but my parents didn't care enough to look at things that were wrong in the way they functioned for my sake? And that my kids got left holding the bag of generations of unwillingness to change...infuriates me. I want to break the cycle.
But yeah, I tend to rage mostly at my dad, and tend to see my mom as the victim of his neglect.

BB

Russ,

I'm glad something I said DID help. I DO understand what you're going through, even the dreaded head fog. I feel that a lot. It's worse at certain times more so than others. I have it at certain times with my T because she is the one I have this attachment stuff with right now. It's awful stuff when it gets triggered. Incapacitating.

I agree with BB that it's good your not in a marriage. You are in a relationship still, but at least it's not totally committed. Makes it a bit easier to deal with this 'passive dependence' and emotional deprivation stuff, although still painful. I hope you can get things sorted out.

Yes my T is totally CBT oriented. Annoying in some respects, but she is good at what she does, so I stay. Her strength isn't attachment disorders though. Too bad we don't always know what we're dealing with before we go into therapy, huh?

MTF

Wow. I completely hijacked this thread. My apologies!

Oops, sorry Russ, I didn't realize you actually were in a relationship, I had the impression you had left it. It can work to be in relationship and work this crap out too, I think it probably just tkaes longer.

Peace, Russ,

BB

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Originally posted by blackbird:
Oops, sorry Russ, I didn't realize you actually were in a relationship, I had the impression you had left it. It can work to be in relationship and work this crap out too, I think it probably just tkaes longer.

Peace, Russ,

BB

Nope, not in a relationship currently. Just a confusing friendship. Sorry if I wasn't clearer about that.

Russ,

You didn't hijack the thread. It hadn't been posted to for a while and I don't consider it 'mine' just because I started it. No worries. The forum is for whoever needs to post on it wherever their issues apply, so feel free to keep posting here!

Cheers!
MTF

Well said, MTF! I feel the same way about threads I start. Mind if I copy what you said here in "my" threads?

Russ, I get how friendships can be confusing...especially with the opposite sex, hey?

BB