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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mia,

Wow Monte, how thought provoking. Thanks for posting about it. I have told my T that she doesn't give me enough of her - ie she is too hidden. We have a mutual friend and a mutual colleague and we are working out boundaries. I told my T that I think she is even more closed book with me because of our outside friends than she would be with other clients. I told her about a previous T where we worked on projects together in the day, I then went to therapy - and then we would work again during the week. The social hat was on, then in therapy the therapy hat went on and then at teh end of every session T would spend 5 mins 'chatting' - this gave me a glimpse of her other HUMAN side. I can switch between the different hats and I don't get confused.

I realise right now with my new T is that I really miss that HUMAN side and I WANT it with my new T. My new T is closed book. I want more. But after reading your post here - I am thinking my new T is a much quieter and reserved person FULL STOP whereas my other T was more outgoing, friendly and out there. Maybe I am asking new T something she cannot give?

My new objective is to really emotionally *get* to my new T to see how upset she gets and to see whether there is more behind that robot face of hers. I nearly saw it once - I should stop staring at the ceiling or out of the window and actually look at her to achieve this. I am always looking at her proving herself to ME. I don't have proof that I can trust her.

Our mutual friend tells me how absolutely lovely my T is outside of session. She sounds like a friend I would die to have. I don't get that in sessions - I get the efficient robot. That effing hurts me bad. But, on the other hand I really love knowing that she is a beautiful friend to my friend. That has helped me stay in therapy.

So I am not sure. Based on your comments here - I think my T is showing different personalities OR her ethics and boundaries cause her to act differently.

OR maybe , just maybe - my T is feeling so stressed and pressured that she has a mutual friend as a client and she is freaking out every session because she doesn't want to do the wrong thing? neglect, abuse, major abandonment, suicidality, SI - these aren't Sunday afternoon strolls in the park.

I just wish I knew what was going on inside her head. I wish we could get drunk together so the truth serum would give me the info.


Can't wait to see what everyone else says on this.

Monte,

Very interesting. I do think that personality (like DF said) plays a much bigger role than some T's would like to admit. I think it is possible that certain innate personality traits would match better with certain people just like they do out in the real world and I think like you expressed that those innate qualities can come through regardless of the T's orientation in terms of therapy.

Sometimes I feel like I know my T pretty well and then sometimes I think I don't know her at all. However, I often wonder if some of that is part of her personality. Some of the things that tend to drive me crazy with her I often wonder if she does IRL with friends/family as well. It's hard to say. I know a fair amount of information about my T (obviously a drop in the bucket of her actual life) and it's given me some insight and glimpse into how she handles things. Honestly, if I think too deeply about it then I get a bit freaked out. It's hard to explain and a bit personal on both sides (hers and mine), but I try not to think too much about it because it makes me question things too much.

ETA: My T does show a small amount of emotion at times. It is never very "big" but she often gets teary and sometimes her voice will catch, but she is really good at holding it back. That amount of emotion works well for me. If she was falling apart I wouldn't feel safe because I'm usually already falling apart.

Hi Monte,

Interesting topic, and I have a few things that struck me:

quote:

the boundaries you bump into maybe aren't always about them professionally per se, but about them personally.

and

But at a deeper level now...he can be so dry. Not clinical, not cold...just so un-effusive. As much as he encourages me to bring forth emotion in session and is accommodating with my needs, requests etc, it still eludes me. I wonder if it's simply because he is not an outwardly emotional person himself, so he does not impact me in the way I need to be impacted in order to connect emotionally. In fact maybe because his influence over me is so great, his stoicism influences me more. He does not 'show' me how it is done, as such. He says emotion is good and healthy and acceptable and he wants to see it, but he doesn't 'do' it himself. He is warm and friendly, open to touch as I have said, and endlessly patient and accepting...but beneath that is a certain impassiveness that I wonder if I am actually tapping into unconsciously.

I have struggled with this same stuff. My T has been emotional on only 3 occasions that I can recall. The rest of the time she is what you describe your T to be, to a certain extent. I can't call her 'dry', but un-effusive yes. Sometimes she gets pretty animated with what she is saying to me, but it's when I am really down and out and need a sort of pick-me-up, and she is good at making me smile, laugh, etc. But as far as emotional goes, she is SO not that. In fact the times she has shown any emotion have been extremely powerful connecting moments for us, and I of course would love to have that on a weekly basis. But I think her own personal boundaries keep her from being emotional with me. She once told me her own co-workers had never seen her cry, and she's been working there for 12 years. It made me feel privileged that I have seen tears in her eyes, because I know she's not one to be emotional. I think it is part of who she is, too, not a professional thing.

I find myself wishing she were more emotional, more demonstrative of her own emotions, more inviting of emotional response from me. But I somehow (especially now that we aren't focusing on the attachment) get the feeling that is just not how she works. She tells her own stories with very little emotion attached, so it is harder for me to 'see' how it is done. I usually am totally detached from emotions myself, so yes, it would be nice to have her work to get me to show emotion.

When I DO show emotion, I feel very embarrassed, even like it's wrong for me to be crying in front of her because her own lack of emotions has always caused me to feel like it's just not acceptable. I get mixed messages, because sometimes when I cry she asks me what I'm feeling, and twice she has tried to calm me by putting her hand around my wrist, or holding my hand in both of hers, but those were times where I was full of self-disgust and self-hate. Of course it always helps when she moves her chair in REALLY close so that her knees are touching the couch and we aren't even a foot away from each other. Having her right there in my face causes me to better connect to my emotions, but it's just not her 'style' or her M.O., so I usually just sit there feeling like an idiot for not controlling my own emotions while I'm sitting there. It's so conflicting.

I wish we both had T's that were more 'gushy' and prone to show emotion, or help evoke our own within us. I'm sorry this is a struggle for you, too. Sometimes I feel it is going to be all up to me to get there, I just don't know 'how' to.

I hope your session went/goes well. Take care!

MTF

I know a fair amount about my T. He discloses quite a bit but always as it pertains to my therapy issues. We have a similar background in so many ways, to include a very unique career path...it's like we were separated at birth, lol.

So, I know (or surmise based on stories) that in his personal life with family and friends, he is touchy feely and emotional. In therapy, he walks a finer line but always empathetic.

I am totally shut down. No matter if he shed some tears or sat there stoically I don't see it impacting my ability, or lack thereof, to emote. I'm just not ready, willing, able to go there.

edited to add that if T did shed a tear, I'd launch into caretaker mode on steroids leaving me even more repressed in terms of my own emotions.

Monte - this is definitely something I have noticed with my T. In fact, my T has all but admitted to structuring a lot of his work around his own strengths (i.e. relational and intuitive stuff). When asked for more structural things, he will tend to try to help me get outside structure in place, because he feels uncomfortable with his lack of talent there. I gave up on him being THAT person quite a while ago. Professional boundaries due come into play, I think, when a T's personal boundaries would be a lot greater than they think are allowed and/or advisable. My T does a lot more self-disclosure than I think many do and has openly said that his personal inclinations about physical contact are much more open than what he feels his profession dictates. My T is expressive in his words, but often I find it hard to feel like he's emoting when he says he is. He will say, "[Abuser's name] makes me so angry!" and he sounds, maybe, his normal calm with a little agitation thrown in, LOL. I'm thinking, "Wow, if that's 'so angry,' what in the hell have *I* been witnessing all these years at home, psychotic rage?" He also totally does not "get" my expressive stuff. He still encourages me to write and draw and praises it, but will often admit, "I don't really understand what _____ is getting at." It's so painful for him to not get things that mean a lot to me (especially my poetry) that Friday when he brought up a poem I had sent him the day before, I told him I didn't like it and kind of stonewalled the subject, because it's just too hard for him to say, "That's pretty. You're a good writer," when I've painstakingly crafted the written equivalent of a snapshot of my most wounded part, KWIM?

That said, one thing I DO find comforting is that even if he changes his approach to working with me a bit in terms of what he discovers works best, I will not changing who he is. He is not going to suddenly become someone else. My mother was so erratic when I was a child, and is still now to some degree, that the idea that my behavior might change him in some essential way would be quite scary.

((((MONTE))))

Finding this thread very interesting because I too have wished my T was more emotional or was able to draw the emotions out of me somehow. And sometimes I do wonder if it's just his personality. I am currently reading Attachment in Psychotherapy and finding it to be an amazing read. The author talks about the relationship being co-created. And that the therapists brain often is mirroring our own behavior because that's what we as humans do and that we mirror back and so on and so forth. I've been wondering if my T seems stiff because I'm stff and the more I open up, maybe the more he'll open up.

I've also asked myself how I would feel if he got emotional and I'm not too sure I would like it or be comfortable with it. But then again, I just wish he could help me become more comfortable with my emotions and help me access them more.

Monte, are you planning on taking this up with T? Let us know if you do since we all seem to struggle with something similar. Maybe I'll bring it up to my T on Thursday.

We have been discussing that I'm not as comfortable with him when he's TOO clinical. But on the other hand, I'm not sure I'd ever be comfortable with him. Somehow I have to learn to tolerate this incredible intimate relationship.

I do like it better when we talk about deep things as opposed to surface stuff. I like feeling connected to him in that way. But sometimes I find it hard to get there. You too?

xoxoxo

Liese

quote:

SD, I simply could not bear to know anyone that knows my T personally, much less as a close friend. I would be consumed with envy and pain and also curiosity...probably the inherent nature of such an intense but one-sided relationship. This sounds like a tricky and not ideal situation for both you and your T, but these are the situations life deals out sometimes. Were you aware of this connection with current T when you started? And you clearly knew your previous T outside therapy too. Wow...that sounds challenging... all that hat-changing. But it would truly give you insight into who they were and how 'real' they are being with you in therapy. And yes, I too wish sometimes I could 'get' to my T, elicit something unguarded. Maybe it's better that we can't?

I AM consumed with envy, pain and curiosity. It makes it difficult. BUT. I had a double life with my last T and i can do it. I have come to realise that I wouldn't see a T if I didn't know something about them. My friend adores my T, a colleague highly respects her - I needed those two endorsements for me to even consider my T. If she was a stranger - I wouldn't connect. So the difficult road is the only one for me.

I had made the appointments BEFORE I knew my friend knew her. If I had known how close they were (and how sweet T is in real life) I don't think I would have gone to her. I tell my T that I know she is lovely and sweet in the real world - but to me she is bossy, mean and unfeeling (said with a joke) - just letting her know that I know she has two sides of her and I get the therapeutic side.

Maybe I am hoping that one day that lovely and sweet person will be lovely and sweet to me.

Monte,I do believe that a Ts personality and how it relates to our own can be a big factor in how we get along in therapy and how successful our therapy is.

I also think that if our Ts personality reminds of our mother or our father or someone significant, that can really put a good or bad spin on things.

T1 once said to me, "You and T2 both have very strong personalities...so its only natural that you are going to butt heads at times". It made me realize how more alike T2 I am than T1 and it sort of made me sad.

T2 was very sassy, opinionated, and extremely expressive with her facial expressions and mannerisms. She didn't hold anything back and you always knew where you stood with her.

T1 is much more reserved and down to earth. She's passive, quiet, and far more reflective than T2. T2 didn't "think" things...she said them out loud. T1, on the other hand, thinks and though she does share her thoughts, there are many times that she doesn't and I sometimes (mis)interpret that to mean she doesn't care, isn't listening, doesn't get it, or wants me to move on to something else.

T1 has a playful side though and I feel immense joy when I am able to bring that out and get her to laugh.

T2 was very warm and compassionate and when I was talking about painful stuff, her eyes welled up with tears and I felt like she was really there with me in my pain, but now I think a lot of that was fake.

T1 can seem cool and aloof and distant at times, but I know that in her heart, she is a much more genuine person, even if she doesn't always express in ways that I want to hear it and feel it.

LG - my T is definitely like your T1.Mine considers things a lot and takes a while to think and formulate what she is going to say, she seems careful and methodical and thorough. I know T has a playful side - I usually get her to laugh at something each session (although no laughter today....) and occasionally she has said something flippant that I have picked up on.

My last T would be more spontaneous and out of session would be fun, super friendly and out there. I think this T would be much more reserved and introverted. But, I don't know.


What about ages of the T's? My T is 31 or 32 (I think) and I am 44. She was a teenager when my teenager was born! She isn't married, got no kids. How can T's relate to ppl when they have such different experiences. Of course I know that the feelings and therapy are the commonality - but would it be hard for say a 30 year old female T to relate to a 60 year old grandad? And how much does my T relate to me? How would I find that out?

((((MONTE)))))

Just reading a very interesting chapter from an adult attachment book and therapy. There is very detailed information re: how it's not only the attachment style of the patient but also the therapist in terms of a successful outcome. And they talk about different styles of T's and patients and how they interact. It also talked about how a T just may instinctively use a more emotional style with anxiously attached clients and a more cognitive style with avoidant clients.

It also said that insecurely attached T's attend more to dependency needs and made more in-depth interpreations when treating clients with an "anxious state of mind with respect to attachment than when treating avoidant clients. These findings suggest that insecure therpists respond in a complementary way to clients' dysfuctional needs and perhaps perpetuate and reinforce clients' maladaptive attachment strategies."

It was all very interesting and eye-opening.

Still thinking about it all ... hope you have a good session this week!

xoxo

Liese

((((MONTE)))))

I know. Why does it have to be so hard to open up? I was reading chapter 14 of Attachment in Adulthood: Structure, Dynamics and Change by by Mario Mikulincer and Philip Shaver. Lots of interesting stuff in there.

Good luck at your appointment.

xoxoxo Liese

I wonder if how we percieve our T's is more about how we felt with people when we were younger? What is it exactly "you" would want your T to say or do that would make you feel different? I've often thought this way and really what I thought I needed/wanted wasn't, T was doing and being enought just as she is but all my screams and crys on the inside demanded something else, demanded the breast that wasn't enought once upon a time and that gets caught up in my today.

quote:

Essentially a T can only be 'who' they are, right? I mean they choose an approach, a modality, and work within it and presumably this choice means they will respond to clients in certain ways and offer certain things, but they are still 'them' and can only go as far as the essence of who they are permits them, right?

Might that be sometimes where problems in therapy relationships have their root? Simple personality stuff. Perhaps if I were hugely emotional and given to pools of tears and not good at controlling outbursts etc, he would be stabilizing and calming. But I am so emotionally stifled and I wonder if who he is as a person maybe feeds that. It's not too different from any other relationship where people perhaps don't always bring out the best in each other...something that only becomes apparent as time goes on.

Hi Monte,
I've wanted to respond to this since you posted it but couldn't find the time (ok or focus ) until today. Its complex since as FFotW mentioned, I do think we bring a lot of things to our theraputic relationship which are about our past. We project needs, and feelings and even expectations of behaviors based on our past. Which means there's a lot of hard work sorting through what is actually coming from our Ts and what we are just "seeing" there so to speak.

But once you clear all that out, I definitely think the answer to your question is yes, at least based on my experience. When I was training to take calls on the crisis line, the best advice I received was during a training shift with one of the trainers (she's now a good friend of mine) which was that although it's important that we follow the call model we're trained in (active listening, non-judgmental, non-directive), we need to be ourselves. It made me realize that it's ok to use humor (carefully of course) on the line because I use humor all the time, it's who I am. It is difficult to reach and connect with someone if you are not being your authentic self. Now the person on the line does not get to see all of me or even most of me (for one thing, it's a 10-20 min phone call, how much ground could you cove? For the second thing, it's not about me, it's about them, so the call needs to stay focused on their feelings and their needs, so much of me remains hidden. The non-judgmental and non-directive part of the model means I keep my values and opinions to myself) BUT what they do see, how I do interact, the understanding I offer is authentically me and grows out of who I am and my experiences. It is easier for me to understand and connect with someone if I have similar experiences. That doesn't mean I can't understand someone dealing with something I don't (I've talked with men struggling with whether they are gay or whether to come out, a problem I'm not ever going to face) but I can usually make the leap with some effort.

But I will also be very honest with you and tell you that although I am equally willing and available for each caller, there are some with whom you form an extremely strong connection very quickly and can feel like you really help, there are callers whom you feel comfortable with and feel like you've helped but nothing out of the unusual, and then there are the people that no matter how hard I try (or how hard they try) you just can't seem to connect. It's not about liking or not liking the person (I have sometimes connected with someone that I really don't approve of and have failed to connect with someone that I have really wanted to). Human chemistry is just complex that way. And the best kinds of Ts really do bring themselves into the room. Not all of themselves, the boundaries are so crucial, but the part that you do see, that you do know, HAS to come from who they really are, there is nowhere else for it to come from. So just as their are good and bad love matches, I think there are good and bad theraputic matches.

I had a really interesting conversation once with a nurse practioner I was sitting for meds at a psychiatrist's practice. She was asking how therapy was going and at the time I was making a lot of progress and was really pumped about therapy. She was excited for me and ended up asking who my therapist was, especially as she was new to the area and was looking for Ts to recommend. When I told her the name of my T (who is fairly well known around here), she recognized his name and she told me that she had heard good things about him from other patients but no one has spoken quite as highly about him as I had. I honestly believe that my T has been so effective because on we are a theraputic match made in heaven so to speak. There is some weird interaction between the issues I need deal with and who I am, and his experience and how he operates and who he is, that made us a particularly effective working partnership. I understand that another person could try to work with him and be like what the hell was AG talking about? He's not all that great. I also get that I might have not been able to progress as far or as well as I have with my T with another T.

As nice as it would be that any T could help any patient, I think it's an unrealistic expectation. I mean, we wouldn't expect any two people in the world to be able to be happily married or be able to successfully run a business together. I think it's one of the reasons that people need to be willing to look around a little and talk to different Ts in order to find a good theraputic match.

AG

((((MONTE)))))

I hope you don't let these "new' insights get in the way of trying to work it out with your T. My T has always been willing to be as patient as I need him to be until we figure out together why it's so hard for me to open up. And he's willing to adjust things and try new things. I have a feeling your T would do the same. Read that chapter on avoidant types in that book I mentioned above.

xoxoxo

Liese