Hi Lamplighter,
First please don't worry about posting too much. You're bringing up great topics and your process of thinking out loud is great for other people to read and be able to think through these issues. You're using the forum for exactly what it's intended for, so no worries.

OK first, and I can't say this clearly enough. The boundaries are your Ts problem. I repeat, the boundaries are your Ts problem. He is responsible for setting them, not letting you get away with routinely violating them and letting you know, gently and kindly, when you run into one. I've lost track of how many times my T has explained this. That said, boundaries can be a very individual thing based on a T's own operating style (with the really clear major exceptions like not having a sexual relationship with a client) and different Ts do thing different ways. But when it comes to starting and ending sessions that is DEFINITELY the Ts responsibility. If he allows you to run over, its NOT your fault, nor should you have to be watching the clock. That's part of his professional responsibility to you. Your part of the deal is that you have to stick to being limited to your session and whatever he defines as allowable between sessions (again varies widely depending on the T), that's your responsibility. But he has to define and communicate those limits. I would definitely talk to your T about how you feel about having to keep the time.

And I agree with you, it's important that a therapist start to bring you down and back to a everyday functioning baseline before you head out the door. I'm hoping True North chimes in on this one as she explains it REALLY well.

And yes, you'll probably resent it if he starts to end them, but then you can talk about that to. How we react to the boundaries is a very important part of what we're trying to look at in therapy.

As far as my T, there is a clock on the wall but it's hung in such a way that I have to make a very clear physical effort to turn myself half around to see it. And honestly after all these years I have a pretty good feel for the 50 minutes. But my T also uses some pretty clear physical signals. He sits in a recliner for our sessions and he always takes his shoes off when he sits down and tucks one leg under him. When we get near the end, his foot comes down and he starts to put on his shoes. This is the signal we're close to the end and we shift to a lighter chat while we set up my next appointment. We don't do any small talk besides hi, how are you at the beginning, I'm kind of plunge right into it kind of gal.

The only time he says anything to me about time is if I'm still in a highly activated state and he knows I need to calm down. In that case, he usually gives me around five minutes warning by saying something like "our time is close to done." And he's very consistent about starting and stopping although for a particularly intense session he will run over five or ten minutes if we need to. I appreciate the consistency because I never end up worrying about what it means or if I'm going to lose something I'm not sure I have a right to. And I have occasionally asked him how much time we have left or glanced at the clock so I can decide whether or not I have time to bring up a new subject.

AG

Hi LL,
I agree wigh AG. The time is the T's responsibility, and my T has mentioned it to me on several occasions. He clearly says it is not fro me to worry about, as it is a part of his job as T. After a few times of his reminders, I have basically turned this over to him.

Hi Lamplighter, I tend to be a real clock-watcher. I usually sit where I can see the clock easily, but if I sit where it is to my back then I end up turning around several times during the session (very obvious move) to see how much time I have left. My T goes over more often than she ends on time. Usually I get a full 60 minutes with her, and last session it was 70. The poor woman doesn't really give herself a break between clients at all, not even a lunch hour! It used to bother me more, like it was my job to make sure we ended on time so that she wouldn't resent me for taking advantage somehow. Not that she ever said anything, but that was my fear and I didn't want to displease her. But one day when the clock said my session was supposed to be over, I picked up my purse (something I often do to signal her I am aware my time is up) and I stood up and said, "It's time to go." She said, "I will decide when the time is up." I replied, "Well, you have another client waiting." Then she said in a bit of a snappy voice - which is very rare for her so I remember it well - "Don't you think I know whether or not I have a client waiting? I take care of my clients. We're not through. Sit down." It turns out she did NOT have another client waiting (there must have been a cancellation). But she wanted me to know that SHE was in charge of the time. She also knew that on that particular day I was trying to escape an uncomfortable topic and was using the time as a defense. On another occasion I made a remark about how it was good that I could see the clock easily from my chosen seat, and she said, "That's not an advantage." From these events I have learned to let go of some of the sense of responsibility or guilt for how long our sessions go, but I still silently watch the clock. I can't relax entirely. How can I when I live from session to session?

I'm sure our therapists can get some really good ideas about us and our past from the way we relate... to the clock.
I don't like the clock. One of the first things I do when I sit down I make sure I don't see the clock. My T has a shitty little clock sitting on a table near my chair. I always make sure it is turned away from me so I don't see the passing minutes. I would like to steal as much time as possible, every second is precious. When he says "Our time is nearly up" I don't move, I need to make sure it is really up and he has to say it. I would check the clock only to make sure, that it actually is over. I do have hostile feelings towards the clock and once he said that if I want to I can destroy the clock (he saidd he has to get a new one anyway). I was puzzled. I imagined myself smashing it against the wall, but eventually I didn't dare to do it. But actually I may think about it again.
I'm so glad to have full 60 minutes sessions, I kow that some therapists do 60, some do 50 minutes. If I ever (hopefully not) will have to look for a therapist again at some point in my life I will make sure these are 60 minutes sessions.
I also asked him to start my session 15 minutes later so I can be sure I am never late. He doesn't go over our time if I'm ever late. I told him that he was being like a father with that, with the boundary.

Really interesting to read what happens for others isn't it? My T has a very good in built clock that tells her and me too when time is up. If I'm deliberating whether to bring something up or not, she might remind me if time is short that we've only 10 or 15 minutes left, if I want to keep it for next time. Oh that's red rag to this bull, the thought of then hanging on to it for another week feels so awful that I ususally say it quicker than I would have done normally!!

With the planned difficult work, looking back at memories we try to allow time for grounding at the end. Not always successful but she is careful to make sure I am as safe as I can be - how many times have I arrived home not sure how I got there....??

We do overrrun quite a bit (I mostly pay for that)and guess she knows her time limtations so I can't be responsible for that although I do feel guilty somehow. I'm not really aware of the time when I get really involved in what we're doing, epecially when child memories come up - sometimes I wouldn't be able to say what day or year it was, let alone the time!!!

starfish

Oh the clock!!! My T's clock is to the left of me and I used to complain about it. I would keep asking her to put a clock near the window where I could see it. She told me all i had to do was turn round to see the clock ( and let her see my face noooooo way) which led to a big discussion about why i dont want her to see my face. She never did place a clock at the window for me but I soon realised the clock downstairs would chime every 15 mins and on the hour lol so i always know when time is up.

My T has her clock on the same wall that I sit along, so I would have to scoot forward a bit and look to my left and crane my neck a bit to see the time. It would be quite obvious. I wear a watch, so I try to discreetly just look at it when I can get a quick peek. My T almost always goes over time with me, usually by 10 minutes, and sometimes 15 or 20. It bothers me because I always think about the poor patient that is sitting out in the waiting area wondering why they're having to wait so long. Her beeper goes off to tell her times up and then again to tell her that her next patient is there and she just keeps on talking. Sometimes it seems like she's just chatting, although I guess there's a point to it, but it bugs me a bit. When I've arrived at my mom's to pick up my son she'll say, "Where've you been?", like I decided to stop off and do some shopping on my way back! Sometimes I do have to admit that if makes me feel loved to have some extra attention from my T. But I agree that it's up to the T to keep the time, not up to us. We have enough to worry about!!

MTF

My T had a clock right on the stand next to the chair I sat in. I actually never noticed it until about 3 or 4 sessions in...I think it kind of blends in. Luckily, my T is very responsible about the time, so I've never really wanted to see the clock. In group therapy, I sit right across the room from the clock on the wall, so I have a direct line of sight to it, and it has actually been bad! I don't want to get into something that's heavy if there's only like 5 minutes left, and since I can see the clock, I end up sitting there, glancing at it every 10 minutes, and planning out when my "time" to bring something up has passed.

quote:

since I can see the clock, I end up sitting there, glancing at it every 10 minutes, and planning out when my "time" to bring something up has passed.

Yeah having a clock sitting there right in your face is really offputting. I can’t NOT look at it and I end up doing what you describe, planning out the session!

quote:

Sometimes I do have to admit that if makes me feel loved to have some extra attention from my T.

That’s a nice way of experiencing it! I think I’m still at the ‘this guy can’t keep boundaries’ suspicion stage, it wouldn’t occur to me to think he is overrunning because of me - maybe I should try looking at it that way it would certainly make me feel better. I have no way of knowing whether he does this generally or not as he has half an hour between clients so I never see anyone else. Actually it’s just occurred to me that he specifically has a long interval between clients because his own approach is that one hour is often not long enough for a session so he probably anticipates running over time anyway. Hm.

Ok having moaned about time keeping already I had a session today where we overran by 15 minutes and at least three times I was saying oh sorry look it’s really getting late and each time T said don’t worry it’s ok until he finally said it almost annoyed ‘Don’t worry I’VE SAID IT’S OK!’ and I think then it finally sunk in that he probably is watching the clock just as much as me so maybe I’ll just ask him to turn the clock away from me and rely on him to end the session when he thinks it’s right.

Hm or maybe not. Grrr. Oh well considering what else is going on in me about therapy maybe I’ll leave the problem of clock watching for another time.

Oh... the CLOCK. I hate the clock. Would like to stomp on it as a visual reminder of boundaries that frustrate me. There is a hit dance song out there right now called "Tick Tock Goes the Clock". Just what I need, a reminder

My clock story is this. I thought it was my job to keep the time during sessions. I believed this for about a month (4 sessions). I could not see the clock in his office so I would keep checking my watch. One day we were really involved in the conversation and part of this conversation was me asking some questions about how therapy works and boundaries etc. Because I was so busy thinking and talking I didn't look much at my watch. At the door while I was leaving my T says to me... and usually sessions are 50 minutes. My immediate thought was that I was in huge trouble with him because I didn't watch the time and I was trying to "steal" extra time from him. I was already developing an attachment and transference with him and felt SO embarrassed that he had to tell me this. I mumbled "I'm sorry" and ran the heck out of there with a flaming hot face. I was convinced that he was really upset with me and that I was on the verge of getting terminated for violating the "time policy". I could not focus at work all day and when I got home I wrote this long email apologizing and explaining that I forgot to check my watch and I didn't mean to keep him so long (I was there for 60 minutes)and time just got away from me but that I would do better in the future. I then braced for the worst.

I got back a very sweet email gently explaining to me that it was HIS job to keep track of time and not mine. It was his responsibility and if he decided we needed more time then I should not worry.

I was vastly relieved and bravely brought it up in session. He reassured me again and also told me that he often gives 60 minutes or more, especially in the afternoon (when I see him) when things are slow. So I told him it would be helpful for me since he was time-keeper if I had a physical tip off that time was coming to a close so I didn't watch the clock. So we decided that when he picked up his book of receipts that he writes out each visit then I would know we are winding down. This has worked out really well for us and has taken all the worry of keeping time from me. Of course I LOVE when we go over and I get more time with him. He is very generous with his time and I truly appreciate it. If the session is really heavy and I'm in a bad place/crying/upset... then he will give me a verbal warning as well, such as ... we have less than 10 minutes before our time ends.

I like leaving the time keeping to him and it has never really been an issue since... except for one time recently where he was agitated about running late and into another client. We had a good long talk about that and things are fine now. He apologoized for his stress affecting me. I think the most important thing is that we can discuss whatever comes up so I don't have to sit and stew over it.

TN

TN, reading your post made me want to hug you.
I imagine how your T must have felt when he read your email.

My T usually says "We have to wrap this up." His clock is on the wall behind me. When I'm upset and not feeling heard and he says the time's up, I feel like he doesn't care and feel rejected, and it makes me want to kill him (to be really honest). Sometimes I wish I could put a timer in my pocket and set it for 45 minutes so that it goes off BEFORE the 50 minutes when he says "We have to wrap this up" so *I* will look like the rude/rejecting one for once, but I'm too chicken. ~D.

AG's post inspires me to ask my T to think of a nonverbal cue next time I see him, too! ~D.

Thanks Amazon for the hug. I'm sure my T was pretty surprised that I left him with such an awful feeling at his mention of the time. There has been a big learning curve for both T and I because he had no experience with trauma/attachment patients and we both made many mistakes and had many disruptions. But under it all I know he is a good man and that he wants the best for me and I'm too stubborn to give up on us because I think we have a very strong relationship (despite the bumps). And so we go on... but we are both growing and changing and as much as I think he is proud of some of the growth I've achieved... I feel the same way about him. And lately, he has been simply amazing.

TN

My sessions are getting more difficult. I don't understand anymore. I felt taken care of before and now I'm just confused. I don't know. Is he pushing me? I don't understand what he is doing but he is refusing to give me things that I need, things that are precious to me. I really don't understand what is he doing. Is it because he thinks I am strong so I can handle the pain, so he is pushing me towards it? I don't understand the purpose and I don't know what is his agenda.

I am posting in this thread because I destroyed the clock today. I decided to try it out. I crushed it with my heel first and then threw it against the wall so it fell apart into pieces and was lying on the floor for the rest of the session. It was not really such a great feeling to destroy the bloody clock. Perhaps it was nice to watch it falling apart, but nothing really exhilarating. He still had a watch, so I said that I also have hostile feelings towards his watch. He asked what i would like to do with his watch. I replied that I would crush it with my heel, together with his arm, basicly to hurt him, as he hurt me two sessions ago.

I gave out to him about last session, about him talking sh**t while I needed something else. I needed him to tell me "I'm sorry that it hurt you so much, I'm sorry that I hurt you".
I was in a mood to ask him about things, to test the boundaries and tell him how mean he is to me.
I asked if I could email him since sometimes I write down my thoughts and feelings but then I change my mind and never bring it to the session. He said no, I need to tell all him in person.
I wanted to give him my dream, without reading it and he said no, I can tell him and read but not just give it to him.
I asked if I could have something his when I go home, something small like a pen. He said he could give me a pen when I go but I would need to return it to him when I'm back. I asked "what if I didn't return it back to you", "then I wouldn't give it to you". I was slightly annoyed with him, so I wanted to annoy him and keep asking.
I asked if I could have my appointment day changed when he moves to a different place.
I asked it I could have a photo of him, of course he said no.
I asked if I could have tea there. He replied yes, if I bring it myself. Somewhere around tea talk I felt like crying. I said he is mean and stingy and would not even spare one teabag for me.
I asked about the phone call when I'm away and miss my session. He proposed that I could call him during my session time, but actually that Monday is a holiday so he is off. Of course I can't call him then, so I just sighed and said that I will have to text him then. To which he replied that he would prefer if I didn't text him. Then I really got triggered. It really got painfull then. I sat back, stiffened and closed my eyes to bear the pain. He called my name then and moved closer, so at least he did respond to that.
He doesn't want me to text him anymore. I did text him few times, he didn't reply but I could text him. I can't do this anymore. It really meant a lot. I knew he wouldn't reply but it was there for me, I could text him. And I can't do it anymore.
Of course he wouldn't hug me. And worse, always as I was leaving he touched my arm or back. He didn't do that today so as I left I started to cry again, I felt lost and abandoned. I lost another thing that was precious to me. I don't know if he forgot or is it over. No more "take care" pat on the shoulder.
I don't understand what is he doing now. Is he trying to make me grow up? Does he not want me to love him anymore? I would think that he is trying to detach me from himself and maybe even terminate somewhere down the line, but he actually proposed that we could be meeting twice a week, since there are important things I/we don't talk about. I need to check if I can afford it, but there is a voice whispering not for the first time: "He doesn't do it for you, he just needs more hours that he can charge".

Something in me is telling me that he thinks I am strong enough so he wants to push me, he wants to take away something that he was giving me before. He is getting harder on me, as if he wants me to get bigger, older and bring out some feelings that I didn't show before. Anger perhaps? I don't understand. Does he not want me to love him anymore?

Please if anyone has any insights or understading what all this may mean. I had to write it down here. Maybe that will bring me closer to understanding. I just don't know what the hell is he on. Why i can't have it the way it was before?

Hi Amazon. I'm sorry to hear you are hurting. I only have a second to reply, but I want you to know that I think you are incredibly brave, the way you ask for what you need or want. I've been in therapy over a year and haven't asked a single one of those things that you managed to ask for all in one session (and my, that's an impressive list!) I've only managed to ask if we could open the window a couple times because it was too hot. And that was a Big Thing, although a little thing.

I don't know why your T is doing what he's doing, other than he's maintaining the boundaries and letting you know where they are. Trust him. He sounds like a good person. I am sorry you are in pain, though.

Amazon,
I'm really sorry for the pain you're in. Anytime our Ts change they way they do things can be very painful and the stuff that is happening for you now, I think, is triggering some deep sense of loss about the deprivations you experienced in childhood.

One of the reasons for the boundaries are that we need to talk about how we're feeling rather than act it out. Acting it out, repeating old relational patterns, is usually what is getting us into trouble in the "real" world and therapy provides a place to be able to examine that. By not allowing us to act out our feelings in therapy, we're forced to talk about them. It may be that your T has decided that the "acting out" behaviors of hugs, sending texts, and writing letters is preventing you from actually talking in session about your feelings. But that's where the healing takes place. It's when we allow ourselves to experience and vocalize our feelings in the presence of an understanding, caring other, right brain to right brain, with limbic resonance, that we heal. So your T being withholding about this stuff isn't showing a lack of care or not wanting to meet your needs, he's actually trying to take care of you, keep you safe and have you continue to do the work you need to do.

Part of the problem is that as important as our relationship with them is, it can't become the focus of our therapy. The relationship has to be the medium in which we can do the healing, not the goal.

I'm really sorry Amazon, I really do know how painful this can be. I have spent hours, if not days, weeping over the fact that I can't ever have a hug from my T. And you know from my posting how often I've thrown myself against the boundaries. But I also know in looking back just how important it has been that my T has held those boundaries. As painful as this is, it would only be more painful in the long run if he didn't.

I would really urge you to talk to him about how you're feeling about all this, that the changes feel like a punishment. I think it's important for you to hear that these things are being done out of love not because your needs are being ignored or you not being worthwhile of his care.

AG

Amazon,

I'm so sorry, too. Can I give you a hug? (((((HUG))))) As I was reading your post I could just see myself if it had been me sitting there, I probably would have started getting hysterical. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with all of this right now, and like echo said, you asked a lot of questions and for a lot of needs all in one go, and that was brave of you. Your T is a good guy, and I am sure it is hard for you to want so much and get so little from him. I completely understand, as I am going through similar things with my own T right now. But I think he has great confidence in you and knows that you can handle it. You have grown a lot--whether you can see it or not! I agree with echo again that you should trust him, even though it is SO HARD!! Take extra good care of yourself right now. Do something special for yourself to help yourself just feel good, something nurturing for YOU. Be gentle with yourself and know that we're here to listen. Take care.

MTF

Oh, dear... the relationship is very important to me, it's probably the relationship that keeps me there since I never had anything like that before.

I suppose he knows me by now (it's exaclty a year now) and he knows what I can take.

Guys thank you for your thoughts and replies. I gues I will just sleep with all that. It's so complicated.

Maybe I'll get him a new clock. Something pink and awful perhaps? I'm really tired now...

quote:

I am posting in this thread because I destroyed the clock today. I decided to try it out. I crushed it with my heel first and then threw it against the wall so it fell apart into pieces and was lying on the floor for the rest of the session. It was not really such a great feeling to destroy the bloody clock.

Way to go Amazon! I think that was really brave of you to do that I wish I had the guts to show some destructive anger. I’m only sorry it didn’t make you feel as good as you’d hoped.

It sounds as if this was a really painful session, but my sense is that you were able to get into ‘I want’ mode and make a lot of wants clear to him - even if it meant hitting a brick wall of NO. Possibly good things to talk about next session?

I love the idea of getting him another ghastly clock! Make sure it’s one with no battery though

I hope you feel a lot better after a sleep, and are able to think about the session in terms of working through the pain of all those no’s.

{{{{{Amazon}}}}}

Wow...I just wanted to let you know how much I admire the honesty you showed to your T today. That was really amazing. I also admire how he held the boundaries because it was probably difficult for him. I'm so sorry for how painful that was for you, but I'm glad he wasn't willing to hurt you more by giving in. That shows how much he truly cares for you. I'm not surprised you're tired and I hope you get some good sleep tonight.

SG

Hi Amazon,

I know you're hurting, and I'm sorry to see it. At the same time, though, I couldn't help but feel impressed and almost excited for you at what you describe in this session. It speaks volumes for the trust that has grown between you and your T that you can show him this much and be this direct about your needs and desires. I believe from reading your posts that there was a time, not so long ago, when you too would have been awed to see yourself being so strong, trusting, open, vulnerable. Smashing the clock! Asking for what you want!

This communication is so open and powerful. The hurt of directly touching those boundaries must be intense - but what security in being so well contained by the care of this man who knows his relationship to you and will defend its proper nature, and your independence, and his openness to the therapeutic relationship you DO have.

I hope that as you process the hurt you can feel some of that security and containment, as well as your own strength and aliveness.

J

It was really comforting to read your replies.
You all know how much I love him, and I am putting so much hopes and trust that he will never fail me, that he is so perfect that at times it scares me a bit.
Well, I know he is not entirely perfect but maybe at least he is the perfect therapist (although fairly new one), that he is like a rock.

I almost have the feeling of betraying him, by looking for support on this forum, do you know what I mean? I think you are all great, but perhaps I should share my feelings with him in the session instead of venting here, getting calmer and making myself think "wow, he is the best therapist on the world". I am very very confused about therapy now.
I kind of think that it means the more pain I feel, the more he takes away, the more he cares and the greater he is...hmm...

Guess what... he rang me today for a short while to tell me that I can text him next Monday at my usually appointment time. Monday is Easter holiday, so I won't be seeing him then and will see him the following Monday, after two weeks time. It was a slight shock to hear his voice over the phone. He never called me before. Ok, it triggered me again. Does it mean he could not hold on to the boundary? I think it may mean, that he knew it is 2 weeks without me seeing him, at perhaps difficult point in therapy. So he decided to allow me for a brief contact at my usual appointment time. I'm feeling fine now, but 2 weeks is a while and I hate this kind of breaks. When he saw me leaving I was really emotional and I don't know what feelins he saw, since I turned to look at him, and there must have been fear, despair and loss written on my face. Simply misery.
The other thing that triggers me is that a man showing care (him calling) is also potential danger, something to be caucious about. What his intentions are? Is he not the perfect therapist any more? Oh, dear Lord...


P.S. I'll get a cheap clock, maybe I will be in a mood to destroy it again. I'll bet ya he wouldn't let me do it again, but who knows...

Just a miscelaneous ramble...

Divinity - I like the word. It says it all.
I think I post here not as much to question his "divinity" but sort of to reinforce it (??)
Whatever he does, whatever he does not, he is perfect and if there is anything painfull I rather absorb it myself. He did notice that. That I need to keep him perfect, so perhaps instead of throwing my pain at him I keep taking it back into me...
Anyway I am going to ask him why he called me, and tell him that it sort of freaked me out a bit. I feel that he is trying to do something to get moving because all I want to do is keep coming, seeing him, and dwelling on how wonderfull he is and how happy I am to have him as my T, and how much I adore him. I understand we get nowhere if I only keep feeding on whatever he is giving to me and don't reach deeper into me where the actual things dwell, right?
I must be a severe case of idealising transference

I think I will go for twice a week sessions soon (partly because seeing him twice a week will be like heaven - please somebody slap me). There are a lot of things that I keep secret from him and I need to start spilling them out.

I had a session this morning and I told him I wanted to be a brat and bring a timer so it would go off in 45 minutes and interrupt HIM but I forgot the timer AHHH!! (so I was laughing) and then I mentioned that it upset me sometimes when he said time's up, like I was being kicked out. I was upset about something else today that he already knew about so he was talking in a really calm voice but he said he was glad I said something about it.

A few minutes before the time to go, I stopped talking so before he asked me something else, he said really quietly that in a few minutes it would be time to go. It's not a nonverbal cue but I didn't feel at all like he was getting rid of me this time. And he had written something down on his notepad when I originally brought it up today so maybe he noted to do the ending different from now on. I hope so. I know it's just a little thing but it felt really good that he listened. ~D.

quote:

Originally posted by Amazon:
I think I will go for twice a week sessions soon (partly because seeing him twice a week will be like heaven - please somebody slap me). There are a lot of things that I keep secret from him and I need to start spilling them out.

Who knows, maybe you'll start hating him once he starts to analyze all of the things you spill to him. Probably not, however. But on a more serious note, even though you do idealize him, you are still pursuing more sessions out of an identified need, which is all that matters.

And it makes sense what you mean about reinforcing his "divinity." Because if you read and hear about others' experiences with their therapists, you can compare it to yours and ultimately decide that whatever your therapist is or isn't doing is better for you than any other method that other people's therapists are using with them. So it reinforces the feeling that he is attuned to you and knows what you need. Personally, idealizing my therapist scares me, but the trust that's involved in the idealization is a major stepping stone, so it's a bit like a double-edged sword.

-sigh- Is NOTHING easy?