well said blackbird!

This is an awesome discussion guys!

Jill, no apology necessary, I was not in the least offended about what you said and I think it was a totally logical inference from what I said, I just wanted to make it clear that I thought I could use taking care of people as a defense to hide my own vulnerabilities. It wasn't really a dynamic in my family because my older sister had already taken the role of caretaker by the time I came along (I am the youngest of four siblings). But I also think, if I'm honest, I do have somewhat of a history of trying to help other people because I was desperate for approval as well as wanting to make myself useful so I wouldn't get sent away. I sometimes have to work at it to make sure that I'm helping others out of a sense of my worth not out of a sense of my lack of worth.

I want to say thanks again for bringing this up, it's been a really fruitful discussion. It helped me realize that I needed to post about what was going on with me right now so I really appreciate you risking being so open and vulnerable.

quote:

Blackbird said: AG, I just wanted to chime in here since everyone is being so honest, and say I have often felt sad, that you "take" so little and give so much. And I think you have such a wealth of background and information, I often have felt, "what could I possibly say to her that could help?" And I am sorry for that, in fact. Just because you "know more" doesn't mean you don't need every bit of tenderness and support, and input...

((((BB))))) Thank you so much but it's really not true that I "take" so little. When I post and make my needs known, I always receive incredible levels of support and it is often in trying to answer other people's questions that I am able to reflect on what I've learned and make it a more integral part of me so even though it looks like I'm helping other people, I'm also very much growing through it. But I do so want people to feel free to respond to me because if there's one thing I've learned from my T, it's not about what we KNOW, it's about the connection of having our feelings understood. And I don't know as much as you all think I do. And last, but not least, BB I've lost track of how many times your responses have lifted me up and helped immensely, so no apologies.

AG

Wow it’s only been a day yet I seem to be really late to this thread - saw it the other day and thought I’d like to post and now it’s half way down the page. Well too bad I’m going to post anyway

Lol Jill that’s the question central to my life! What the hell is it that everyone else seems to get that I keep missing? Why is it I always end up feeling like I’ve said/done the wrong thing and not said/not done the right thing?

About the only thing I’ve come up with that sometimes helps me cope with what seem to be society’s unspoken unwritten rules that I don’t understand, is to constantly monitor how what I say and do might be affecting other people. Not the best thing to have learned (there are very bad reasons for my having ‘learned’ that rather than knowing it instinctively) but the positive side of it is that it has allowed me to understand a bit how other people think and feel (insofar as that’s possible).

That really helps me when I’m spinning out trying to work out what I’ve done wrong - to try and step back and see that maybe it’s not so much what I’ve done or not done as how the other person might be feeling, for any number of reasons. Have to say though that that ain’t easy!

The other thing that I do when starting something new that involves other people (like joining an internet forum ) is to read around what and how others have posted to get some sense of the ‘etiquette’ - for instance on this one when I first started reading it, I noticed hardly any swearing so automatically monitored my own posts to a minimum of swearing (difficult that, seeing as how in real life I swear all the time lol!) I also noticed a lot of people are Christians on here, and that made me aware to try not to say anything that might be offensive or upsetting to believers...

None of what I do though is fake, it’s more adaptive I suppose. The need to fit in and be accepted is a pretty big drive in me...

Just my thoughts…

LL

Hi LL,

I also wanted to respond to the same thing that Monte quoted...I know that there are lots of judgmental people out there, and there are a lot of judgmental Christians, too. I am Christian, but I absolutely respect everyone's decisions and would never want anyone to feel inhibited because of a fear of offending any Christians. Heck, sometimes...or, most of the time, I'm more angered by people of my own faith than of others. And most often, that's because of how it seems a lot of Christians (nobody here) judge those outside of the religion.

I'm a bit discombobulated right now, but I wanted to comment on the unspoken rules in terms of social interaction in real life. I do pretty well, but I usually feel like I'm a chameleon. It's like I can observe the situation and see what the "norm" is what I'm "supposed" to do and then I can mimic that and nobody is the wiser. However, I constantly feel inauthentic and like I don't fit. Always and no matter where I am (except for at T and with my best friend). I guess it is good to have the ability to just blend like that and pass as a regular person, but it doesn't feel very good.

In terms of this site, the only things that I've noticed are that most of the discussion leaves out much detail about why we are all in T. However, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Since this site allows anyone to read even if they aren't registered, I wouldn't be too terribly comfy putting much detail out there anyway. As it is now, the only people that could really figure out who I am by reading this site would be my T and probably my best friend. Otherwise, there isn't enough detail to really put it all together and I like that.

strm, yes, the chameleon thing, i talk about that alot in t, and it disguises me so well at times, that i think my first t didn't get how broken i am, it is hard to shake off, that chameleon thing, as it has saved me for many years, and it is hard to know when i am doing it and not, as i don't know any other way to 'be'...and now i have seemed to completely lost who the hell i am!! i know what you mean about the why's we are all in therapy. i think i can talk about why, but i think one thing, other than the obvious PAIN of talking about it, is it lends me to minimizing my whole deal, as we looked normal from the outside, shoot, my parents sent me to europe in hs with a class trip, i had clothes, piano lessons, all the makings of a normal childhood, cept for the schizo sister and emotionally ignorant parents...for me, it was the drip drip drip of the chinese water torture of negativity, put downs, and invisible needs, with a handful of really cruel events, but, compared to what so many others have endured, idk, i think i come out easy and the comparison stuff makes me retreat into thinking i just need to pull it all together and shake this off and quit being silly, at my age, to mourn my childhood...sorry if there are triggers here, but one thing, i do think we are all wired differently and what one could breeze through another more sensitive type, me, just can't endure. idk, again, blabbing too much, but i don't think it would be healthy for any of us to compare our abuse in a way that would diminish it's significance, or heighten our fear of ever getting well. so, i guess that justifies keeping that element down. and maybe i should erase my 'bit', but i am trying to be out there and honest and take what comes my way. truth over fiction and pretend these days. exposure over protection, real over pretend, honest over lies, vulnerable over 'being a turtle with all limbs and head in the safety of my little world'.

am reading a book on satisfaction in life, and the one thing that it stresses, other than the Christian element, is being in community with others...and that is my catch 22, i RETREAT!! so, i'm trying not too!!

speaking of, kashley and monte, i am a Christian too, newly reborn last fall, never knew i had one foot in and one foot out until i really fell apart this past fall and that was the only lifeline in sight, and it has totally rearranged my world and i am ever so thankful for this breakthrough. i really feel like the only way God could have me rely solely on Him is to take everything else completely away. and He did in many ways. i am struggling faith wise in the summer, as the many (three) weekly bible studies i jumped into are on break for the summer, and i have let loose a little. i know faith in God seemed for me before this as something for the intellectually weak, and i hate to admit that, but that is what i thought, and i am not condemning anyone for feeling whatever they feel, i have been all over the map myself, so i have no place to judge. anyway, i still can cuss like a sailor. but i don't mind cussing, only the gd thing i can't tolerate, but we all have our issues, and i am probably blabbering more than i need to, but, freedom for everyone is what i want, be who you are, and one day, if i can shake this chameleon thing and figure out who the hell i am, i may be out of therapy. i think i am so scared to try new 'me's' on, and maybe afraid of the judgment, so this is a good place to sample things.

i think, and not to pressure anyone, the only thing that really hurts is to be invisible. that is the common factor in most all my triggers...and the one i can most easily trace to childhood.

LL, yes, what IS it they all seem to get...even y'all!! i still feel all bumpy and weird, y'all are so adept at handling all the different personalities, makes me really realize how much better i do one on one. but this is a great place to learn more.

i don't know, it is a maze, and i just appreciate having a place to come when i need a little immersion into this world of figuring this all out.

thanks to everyone for being so open and honest in their responses...jill

quote:

i think, and not to pressure anyone, the only thing that really hurts is to be invisible.

Jill you’ve just described my own major ‘trigger’ (I use the word trigger advisedly, what I really mean is the thing that pushes my buttons of rage and pain but it’s never unmanageable).

Being invisible, not counting, not mattering, being ignored, apparently put down, negated, not validated, not heard, not appreciated (?) - as if I could believe I could be appreciated anyway! (old message) - those are the things that affect me the most - to the point where I’ll do just about anything to belong and be accepted.

I get the chameleon reference - can’t say so much that I change according to whom I’m with, rather I’ve developed a way of being with people that is based entirely on what I perceive their expectations, wants, demands to be (all tacit and unspoken) - that can get really tricky when it’s a group of people rather than individuals. Trying to meet everyone else’s needs and wants while at the same time covertly hoping to get some of mine met in the process. A REALLY bad way to be (but allowed me to survive and even learn some real lessons) - because like STRM says, it feels inauthentic, I’m having to monitor all the time in order not to reveal the ‘real’ me and over the years the need to just ‘be’ the real me has become an overwhelming drive. I guess everyone can relate when I say it’s HUGELY dangerous to do that.

Kashley and Monte, thanks for the comments about not having to be too self censoring when it comes to religion. But I’d do it automatically anyway - one thing I can’t do is know in advance that what I’m going to say could be offensive and say it anyway. Simply not capable of it lol. Though I’m sure I do say lots of things that are offensive, just don’t know it at the time.

Funny this thread seems to have brought out a lot of insecurities here, now everyone is being super careful in their posts to consider how they are affecting others - hope we go back to normal soon

LL

I was just thinking of this other unspoken rule here that I think is worth speaking:

Be gentle with yourself.

So much important and tricky emotional stuff goes on on these boards. It's a beautiful and healing place to be, but it's also a place to be careful with yourself, given the depth and strength of the content and the connections we form here. Sometimes it's like playing with fireworks.

There seems to be a whole lot going on at the moment in particular, and I think a lot of that is partly down to growth in the number of active posters here. It's a wonderful and exciting thing, but I think it has some knock-on effects too.

One I notice for myself is that it's getting harder to read ALL the posts, like I often do. I lose the thread/s more often. And there is so much intense, high-quality sharing going on that if I DO try to read everything, the chances of me coming across a bunch of triggers is higher. And there's simply a lot of different 'faces' around, which I really enjoy and which feels stimulating, but which also contributes to that sense of new ground.

So, I'm guessing other people are having some of these feelings too, and I think it's worth noticing them so they don't take us by surprise. Personally I'm trying to think consciously of ways to handle the shifts - like giving myself permission not to read everything, thinking a little bit more carefully about how I'm feeling before I visit or post, being conscious of how I feel about stuff on the boards and whether I need to do something extra to process (e.g. write in my journal), whether I need non-posting time or (shock! no!) time away from reading. Just slowing down in general rather than gobbling up all the emotional stimulation real quick and getting a belly ache.

I know self-care doesn't come easy for some of us but maybe it's a good place to practice doing it - in whatever ways feel ok. I think taking this on is one way to really strengthen how much we can be present for others, and a way to help protect this beautiful little eco-system we have here, too.

Take care, all.

J

why do i always start every post with 'WOW'??

but, WOW, such great stuff LL and Jones.

LL, yes, you got it, it is how i adapt at trying to be liked, for me, a selfish goal to avoid pain, rather than the alruistic light i had thought it to be, maybe a little of both, but definitely the purpose of the chameleon is multi-dimensional. and Jones, i guess i came on the board in a period of greater activity and more posters, and feel a bit relieved to hear you say that, as i am just marveling at how you all not only balance, but 'twirl' the needs of others so adeptly. i feel like the blind leading the blind in here, as i do in most crowds, trying to distinguish the individual from the group. and, the need for self care, too, i feel guilty NOT reading and helping at times, actually today, would not let myself get on the forum til after church and lunch, as opposed to having my breakfast coffee with y'all. had coffee with hubby, and i know that is what i am supposed to do, but, get on here and feel guilty i don't have more time to respond and nurture others, as my family needs me to be 'there'....so, kind to yourself implies the awareness that all of us are pulled in many directions, and as much as we all love our time here, any invisibility I FEEL needs to be balanced with knowing others have lives too.

i most close, for now, in saying, y'all are all the most wonderful, dear, enchanting, resilient, authentic, transparent, genuine bunch of 'buddys' a girl could wish for!!

hugs to all!! jill