Hi all,

I really appreciate your feedback and advice and concern. The best thing for me was that this forum was here to read about/research what was happening inside of me. I am feeling somewhat clearer in myself. this is a core issue and will take time and careful stepping, reflecting and trusting of myself.

In response to Shrinklady's email. My T asked me for assistance with something she wanted to learn about and opened the idea of us having a friendship. It is like we have reached a point where we have an opportunity to walk a journey together as practitioners and learn from having a relationship. We are still walking the ground between friendship and therapeutic relationship. She has used appropriate disclosure during our sessions that was useful to my self-understanding. There are obvious power differences in play in this transition and all the fears that go along with that. My fears are about "can I trust"? The real question is in truth only about me. Can I trust myself to take care of myself and keep myself safe? I am beginning to trust myself to keep myself safe and to know how to place myself with someone who cares for me and has that degree of power (ie a parent). Perhaps it wont work out, however, perhaps it will. I stand to lose a lot, yes, however I also risk gaining a lot from a friend and equally from myself in relationship. Perhaps she is not the one to be doing this depth work with or perhaps this is the in depth work being worked through in relationship. Other signs in my life tell me that it may be time to move on and have other therapeutic experiences anyway. Time will tell.

There are different ways to engage in thinking about the world - left brain and right brain are useful ways to describe what I am trying to say. I think that the frameworks that we are using to discuss this here in this forum, are left brain. I suppose I am with my T in right brain territory using feminist/client lead/ community development/structural and spiritual/intuitive frameworks for trying to take this journey of relatedness. I find it helpful to use left brain language to find the words for what I am experiencing. However, the other part of me is really up for the experience and the learning that is possible.

My upbringing had me subjected to analysis and things being done to me, not with me. My folks were the experts at everything, including me, they thought. I always believed that if I opened up to counsellors etc that it would be the same power differential. Plus, as my T noted, I was so fully defended and guarded mentally that there would have been no way in. I would have argued the point and the process with the best of experts and never allowed myself to become vulnerable to their analysis. It was through the bodywork that the wisdom of self was allowed to show itself and I gained confidence in the therapeutic process and my ability to be my own expert and witness.

I have been dwelling on a conversation that I will have with my T about the process of changing our relationship. Perhaps she is not the person to work through this attachment/transference with. I am sure she will have some things to say that I can use to reflect with. I am sure the things that I bring to our relationship, as a person, will also challenge her to grow as well. This conversation will happen outside of session on neutral ground and will require me to be quite clear about my boundaries and quite clear about the truth of my feelings. It is will also be about being aware of sharing the space with her and not monopolising our relationship with my issues. We have agreed to have this conversation this week. Perhaps there are more murky waters ahead. Perhaps there is sun through the clouds ahead.

I intend to articulate my feelings of what has been defined as transference. Although the transference issue may sit between us for a time. It may be something that we can both sit with until it changes - I will find out in our conversation. Or it may have to wait until I am involved with another therapist to assist me to be with it.

It is all part of this wonderful journey called Life.

Thank you my friends. I will keep you posted on how it goes.

Hi Em,

I know that you have already received a lot of excellent input from other members and I intended to hold back because I felt there was nothing more that I could add. But After considering this over night I would like to share some insight on a particular relationship that started out as client/therapist that I am very familiar with:

This is a true life story still playing out:

One of my dear friends is a therapist. She is a very caring individual and was monumental to me when I suffered a breakdown 3-4 years ago. She was well aware of the importance of being my friend and not clouding it with trying to become my therapist too. She even stated that it would be detrimental to do that. Sensing that I had some deep seeded issues she is the one who referred me to my T.

In the meantime, however, she has developed a very close friendship w/ a previous client whom she stopped seeing professionally so that they could pursue a friendship. My friend has admitted serious error in judgment, but remains caught in a whirlwind of emotions that I believe are fueled by transference/counter transference. This relationship is so intense and out of balance that others who observe and do not understand the dynamics have made disapproving remarks about the two of them, even wondering if they are lesbians. It is really a very odd and unhealthy relationship.

For clarity I will refer to the client as Mary and the Therapist as June.

Mary follows June around like a shadow jumping at every move that June makes. If June yawns she is ready to run and get the car so she can take June home to rest. She will stand over her repeating, “Are you tired? Do you want me to take you home? Can I get anything for you?” A bewildered June finally replies, “I was just yawning.”

June on the other hand, takes on the role as if Mary (a 40 something year old woman) is her own child. Feeling the need to tell the rest of her friends that Mary feels left out and needs to be included more.(among other things) June has basically shut the rest of her friends out and only spends time with Mary now.

Mary is married w/ two children and Mary and June spend several hours a day together on a regular basis when Mary should be home spending time with her family and raising her kids. Once I stopped by to visit June and Mary was there. As usual it was impossible to have a conversation with June because Mary was moving up and down from the couch and changing the subject like a five year old. Being aware of this June even told her to calm down. (Apparently I make her nervous because she thinks that I believe that she took my friend away from me) In that visit, Mary nonchalantly mentioned that she thinks her husband wants to divorce her and the kids will probably choose to live with him, so she already figured out that she would be moving in with June.

Recently Mary lost her mother to cancer and spent the last few months helping to take care of her. June was extremely jealous over this especially knowing that Mary’s mother had been neglectful and abusive to Mary and therefore did not deserve Mary’s attention and love at the end of her bitter life.

Cause for alarm? I think so. There is so much more I could relate but I can hardly include every detail, so if there is anything you want clarified please ask me and I will try to elaborate. I am sorry that my reply is so lengthy already. Maybe this is a “worst case scenario,” but it is absolutely true nonetheless.

I would like to comment that I have desired my T becoming my friend. We would likely not carry on the way that Mary and June do. I would love to go running together and meet for coffee. I would love to have her mobile number so that I can call her directly, and have her call me because she just wants to and not because she is returning my call. I have allowed my thoughts to drift there and imagine her offering a friendship to me. It is so dizzying and sometimes I see myself whole heartedly accepting it. Other times I see myself telling her “No. You should know better than that.” Then I sigh with relief because I do not have to worry about that because my T would never cross or mix those boundaries and put me in that position.

By design we have so much to lose as clients. I have the very best of her that she has to offer me. To form anything else would be less. To gain personal access would mean losing all that we’ve achieved thus far. Instead my T encourages me to experience what true friendship has to offer with my friends. With her “in session” help, I have been able to make changes in my belief system and enjoy my friendships more than ever before. The beauty of this relationship is that she cries with me, she smiles and laughs with me and shares my joys and progress. I wouldn’t risk that for anything. Friendships are transient, therapist are supposed to reflect stability.

Welcome to our community and please take care!
JM

Hi AG!

Maybe I should change my screen name to Attachment Twin.

I am really missing my T. I am already counting down the days to Wednesday morning. I had a really hard time with the alcohol cravings last night and wanted to talk to her. Since I couldn’t I just imagined her warm, encouraging presence and what she would say to me. I managed successfully not to give in to alcohol. Instead I totally caved for the simultaneous sugar craving and bought gummy bears. So long as I don’t make a habit out of that I figure I did ok. Today’s a new day that I hope I will find less intense.

JM,
I just needed to say "Wow" about your last post. The last two paragraphs so accurately describe how I feel about my T, but so much more eloquently than I would have been able to put it. Thanks so much!

AG

JM (Attachment Twin )
Nice to know you're not the only one, isn't it? I totally get the missing the T. I saw my T on friday (which he rescheduled when I missed seeing him on Wednesday). He scheduled my next appt for this afternoon (which when he was scheduling it, I thought he meant a week from today, I get in my car, look at the card, notice the date and think "Wow, just how bad was I today!" But I have to tell you, three days between appts is just fine! I'm still looking really forward to seeing him. Actually, I've really made up my mind to talk to him about hugging today (if I don't lose my nerve!).

I'm REALLY glad to hear that you didn't drink! I know how hard it can get, and I definitely think that reaching for gummy bears (yummm, gummy bears, oops, sorry, I'm back) was the better choice. I know I'm joking around alot but I really do understand just how hard it is not to go there. I'm glad that your "virtual" T helped get you through.

I know you probably don't feel this way, but it is really clear that you are a very strong, intelligent woman and you can do this. Just continue to get what you need to deal with your feelings and the alcohol will continue to loosen its hold.

Or you could start eating and I could start drinking...

AG

Thanks Just Me, for your true life tale of one of the possibilities in this situation. I appreciate your time in responding to my post and the concern you have shown me - a complete stranger.

I have not ever desired a friendship or relationship with my T until she suggested we end the therapeutic relationship. I have found that there is always deep learning that comes from going towards the "Yes" and towards the "No" depending on what is present at the time. In the end it is all about me and working my issues anyway - either inside or outside the therapeutic relationship. And she will bring herself to this relationship to learn from and about herself. I intend to keep remembering that I am my own best friend and I am there for me. If I can be that for me, then my world will reflect me in my relationships. I subscribe to the belief that as I make internal changes then my world reflects those changes to me. As within, so with out.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
I know you probably don't feel this way, but it is really clear that you are a very strong, intelligent woman and you can do this. Just continue to get what you need to deal with your feelings and the alcohol will continue to loosen its hold.

Awe! You say the nicest things. Want a gummy bear? I will share with you. (te he)

quote:

Or you could start eating and I could start drinking...

ROFL!!!

You’re welcome Em!

It sounds like you are trying to keep a level head in this decision. I can imagine how hard that would actually be. I know the temptation would be great for me. I think that your analogy of being a “best friend to yourself” is exactly what you should be. With your knowledge and gut feelings, what would you tell your best friend to do in this situation?

The termination phase of therapy can bring out many emotions that had been barely braised in therapy. Mine swung right into grief and extreme attachment issues, and termination is no longer in sight at this time. It is eventual, but not imminent.

I wish you well and I am glad that you found this forum and hope you find it has helpful as the rest of us do.

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
Hi Sprinting Gal,
Welcome to the forums! I've never had transference occur with a medical doctor but from the way you describe him, you were getting emotional support very similiar to what you get from a therapist. He sounds like a wonderful doctor, so I can see you developing feelings for him.
I also understand your feelings of both sexual attraction and wanting him for a father. My feelings for my T tend to go back and forth. Although for me, when the sexual attraction gets stronger, its a pretty good sign for me that I'm trying to avoid something and I need to slow down and look at it. As I am working through the transference (SO much easier said than done!) my feelings for my T are becoming more a deep affection and appreciation for how much I can trust him and how much he's helped me. Any good therapist can help you work through a transference, but for what it's worth (and I want to be very cautious applying MY experience to YOUR life because it may not be true for you) working with a man has led to really amazing progress for me. I worked on and off with a woman therapist for over 15 years and we did a lot of really good work together. She was a excellent therapist and we were very close. But when she retired I ended up going to my present T. Because I had so many issues around the need for an attachment figure and an inability to trust men, I think working with a man has made a big difference. I think continuing to work with a woman would have allowed me to avoid going some places. So if you feel like your current T isn't as helpful as you would like in working through the transference, you may want to look for someone more experienced in working with it. One thing about transference, in the hands of a skilled and ethical therapist, its an incredibly powerful tool for healing, but if its handled badly it can be very damaging.

AG

PS Sorry, I am given to novel like posts!

Thanks for the reply, Attachment Girl. He has gone above and beyond in ways I never dreamt as he had always been cold in the past. It's a complex situation in that in the course of treatment administered by another doctor that he referred me to, I experienced a terrifying medical error that has resulted in my developing PTSD. He told me (in so many words) that he too has PTSD and this is when my feelings for him really intensified and clearly, his did for me as well.

I have talked to my T about it and her assessment of the situation is that he has read me wrong and knows very little about transference. She says he is not "safe." He has never tried to do anything sexual or out of context with me, but he was clearly flustered the last time I saw him and I was met with a number of courting gestures. We speak every two months when I have blood tests but the calls are always short and to the point. My heart pounds when he calls me and I can never say much more than "yes" "okay" and "thank you" but I look forward to his calls so much! He says my name with such exuburence.

I asked my T how to resolve the transference and she told me that being aware of it is the key. That does not seem like enough for me. I asked if I should hire a male therapist in order to resolve it and she strongly cautioned me against it, saying that most would not know how to handle the transference in a non-damaging way. The thing is, I don't want any male therapist to resolve it, I want my MD to help me resolve it! I've been trying to "use" him as a tool to do it without actually involving him but currently I'm leaning towards spilling my guts and telling him while also invoking transference. There is a fear of losing him, of being banished by him because he finds me inappropriate, but the truth is, I want to leave the medical group anyway because of the trauma. He is the sole reason I have not left. But he makes me feel very, very safe and the idea of a stranger following my cancer (I am in remission and considered a low-risk case) makes me incredibly nervous!

My sexual feelings for my MD are not as intense as they once were and often I just wish he were present in my life all of the time due to it feeling like he understands what I have gone through and his obvious care for me. His kindness has been foreign and overwhelming to me. I said that his understanding of me has felt like "a personal ecstasy" because I have never had a man understand me in this way and fall right into that hole in my psyche like he has.

I have the same issues with not trusting men and needing an attachment figure. I was not physically abused by my actual dad, but there was emotional/verbal abuse and he was very emotionally detached. My family, in general is emotionally neutered and I find it very difficult to express my emotions.

The doctor that traumatized me was also a man, btw, making my original MD look all the more appealing.

Minus any sexual attraction, for me transference feels exactly like falling in love. It has all of the tittlelations of a new romantic relationship when you don't want the person to leave you for a minute. The longing to be with this person is so intense you think about them all the time, wonder what they are doing, hope they have thought of you, you try to think of things to do for them. I have had a string of transference reactions throughout my life but until recently I had no idea what was really going on. I've been drawn to mentor/mother figures in my life that usually are no more than 10 years older than me, are in a place of some authority (boss, teacher, etc.) and have shown some interest in sharing their wisdom with me. Right now, besides my T, I have at least 2 other people that evoke these feelings in me. It is exhausting fighting it all of the time. I've had to start avoiding these other 2 women as the only way I have found to lessen the intense emotions I have about them. I have no idea how one would work though transference with someone other than a T. It makes you so vulnerable that a lot of damage could be done.

Acknowledging the transference has helped a little bit. A least I know what is going on and don't feel weird for feeling this way anymore. But it still feels so real and intense. Like I said, the only way I have gotten any relief is distance. Lucky for me I haven't experienced transference with a man. With things the way they are right now in my marriage I most certainly would have an affair, well at least an emotional affair.

It is painful and frustrating and draining and I don't blame you for wanting more ways of dealing with it than just acknowledging it. Hopefully if you keep asking your T this question maybe she will come up with some more answers. Maybe you could bring someone with you to your appts to keep your doc in check. Just a 3rd party's presence would kill any illusion of intimacy/privacy. It is much harder to go astray when there are witnesses. You wouldn't even have to explain the transference stuff, just tell them you need emotional support. (Which is true.)

I do feel for you SpriningGal. I hope you find some peace about this soon.

Does anyone else have a hard time with the fact that your session ends and you don't feel like leaving. I seem to always want to just continue with the transference stuff because it seems like I start to dig deeper as the session goes on. Just when I'm ready to go deeper, it's over.

Hi Diane,

Yes, I do have a hard time leaving when session is over. I’ve told my T that is the hardest part for the next 24-48 hours (as River and others also posted in “24 Hours to go”).
And it is true that by the time you get the wheels turning in your discussion its time to stop. I had 2 hour sessions for about 6 months until I was able to work through some tougher issues I was dealing with at the time. While it was a bit if a financial burden it did help a lot.

JM

Hi Diane,
I once asked my T if I could live under his desk. But we both agreed it might disturb his other clients.

It's always a little tough to leave but I went through a period where it wsa wrenching whenever I left his office. I can remember shaking his hand at the end of a session (we always shake hands at the end) and I teared up and told him that I really didn't want to leave. He very gently told me that this was one of the hard boundaries but to remember that even though I was leaving that didn't mean he still wasn't there. It can sometimes help to remember that the connection doesn't cease when we're not with them.

AG

Hey Guys,
I am new to the therapy world, but I have been hit my the "Transference Bug" right off the bat! I couldn't stand my therapist the first 2 or 3 times I seen him and thought he was the person in the room that needed help. I made fun of him to my friends...then I really started looking at his concerned face and feeling his presence in the room...and bam!!!..It hit me like a rock...This man is HOT!!!...I managed to get to see him every week until the end of the year, and I get so nervous, I love being there and feel secure, but I can't tell him how I feel I am afraid he would tell me to go somewhere else...and I would die!!...Please help me...can a Therapist turn you away for transference...I have been reading your blogs for several weeks now trying to get my nerve up to post...I love my husband dearly, (but we are having some mid life crisis) and I do not want to pursue a romantic relationship with my T..but I crave a hug or embrace... would that help me to go on my way...or send me reeling into another world??Help me out here guys...I'm drowning in my thoughts..C.

Hi Charlotte,
Welcome to the forum. I know that drowning feeling! But you’re ok.

No, a therapist is not going to turn you away because of transference. So let me try to alleviate that fear for you front and center, because that is exactly what I was afraid of when I finally confessed my feelings to my T. I was afraid that she would find me disgusting and my feelings intolerable. (We are both hetero-sexual females, so as you can imagine this threw me for a loop because of the homo-erotic transference.) But when I did tell her, and believe me it took most of the session to even get it out and I did a lot of squirming and shifting the whole time, she was very sympathetic, warm, and she reassured me that this was a normal phenomenon and that she is ok with it and absolutely would not terminate our sessions or send me away. I was sooo relieved! I am sure that your T will tell you much of the same and that transference is a good thing because it allows us to mend the past through a present relationship. Every thing you are feeling in the transference with your T is manifesting from past experiences from your primary attachment figures (parents) and needs to be worked through. It provides a looking glass so to speak and through the gentle guidance of your T you will be able to discover a new sense of self and uproot many old beliefs and patterns that inhibit your life and relationships to this day. Many of us have been and are in the same boat and Shrinklady has posted a great page on transference, you probably already read that but just in case you missed it here’s a link:
http://www.myshrink.com/counseling-theory.php?t_id=18

As you describe how you came to notice the “concerned look on his face and feeling his presence in the room,” you are describing a sense of someone who is completely there for you in that moment that strikes a limbic chord that reaches far back into your developmental years. This is a beginning of myriads of connections that a good therapist can make. This is a very intimate relationship where he is hearing you like no one else ever has, or could for that matter. This is all a good thing Charlotte. When you tell your T, and I urge you to tell him, watch his facial expressions, listen to his reply. I am sure you will find gentleness and understanding there that you deserve. I hope this helps alleviate some of your desperation. You are not alone Charlotte, as you can tell by the transference thread being the most active thread on the site. And as far as your emotions, you are exactly where you need to be and are on the threshold of many emotional, yet exciting changes in your life. It will be a roller coaster sometimes, but if you don’t allow yourself to go there you won’t get better.

And Charlotte, what is going on between you and your husband may have more to do with unresolved childhood issues on (likely both) your parts which manifest themselves in relationships throughout our lives, and quite frankly more intensely in our mid life if they hadn’t yet been dealt with properly. Another clear indication that there are things that need to be resolved personally. And as for a hug from T, I encourage you to ask him what his policy is on hugs. But be prepared that if he says no it may FEEL like a million tons of rejection, but that would be something you need to talk about and work though for its meaning is far deeper than the present feelings of rejection. If he allows a hug and where that hug could plunge you emotionally is hard to tell, but again that is what you would talk to him about and he will guide you through it, hopefully in an utmost professional manner worthy of your trust.

Again it was good to hear from you. I hope you stay in contact and ride it out with us. I wish I had this forum 2 years ago when I was struggling with it so hard.

I am going to make 2 reading recommendations for you right off the bat:

1) In Session- by Deborah Lott. This book is a wonderful tool for understanding transference and how it affects clients. It helped me to feel “normal.”
2) A General Theory of Love-Thomas Lewis, MD. This book is great in helping to understand the neurobiological connections that are happening to you and why they need to happen. There is also a “book club” type thread on this forum too.

I hope this helps.

JM