I know, I know, its their job to worry about us, but I'm having a difficult time right now not worrying about my therapist (who definitely wouldn't want me to be worrying about him). We've been working alot with anger lately and my difficulties in expressing it. Yesterday, he had to cancel a couples session and handled it well, but I had a bad reaction and got really angry. So when I went to see him today, I talked to him about it, but was having a lot of trouble expressing how I felt. So the man basically worked REALLY hard for most of an hour so that I could yell at him. He really pushed me to say how it felt because he knew how hard it was for me. And I really appreciate it, but I hate some of the stuff I said to him. Especially because he's a really awesome therapist and has done so much for me. It just feels like he didn't deserve most of what I said. He was VERY understanding and didn't get upset at all about what I was saying. I think I'm just worried he's going to think that's all I think of him. Although as I'm typing this I realize that's probably not true as I've said lots of good stuff in the past also. THis might just be my extreme discomfort with feeling and expressing anger. Anyway, I would love to hear if anyone else has dealt with this and if you have time Shrinklady I would love to hear the take from the other side of the couch. Thanks!
I hope this makes sense, it doesn't feel like its very clear.

hear ya loud and clear on this one! our T always says it's 'her' job to take care of 'her' and not our job... and, that she 'hears under the words' and knows when we express anger, even when directed at her, it's not always just as simple as being mad at her... don't know if this makes sense either

robin

ive been mad at my T before but i dont think ive ever told them....

so good on you to be able to do so

BW

Thanks, as usual I at least feel a lot more normal when I talk about how I'm feeling and you all respond. Robin, I completely get what you said! Almost invariably when I work through the anger at him, its really about something getting triggered from my past. Which is good because then we can work through it. And Butterfly Warrior, don't be too impressed, the man was practically begging me to tell him how I felt. I really can't take much credit.

Oh, that's too funny Attachment Girl...that is truly a dedicated therapist you have and exactly what you need... someone who won't let you pull away. But it's essential that you take credit for your own work.

What was happening didn't happen in a vacuum...it was the two of you together. And, just as he wasn't going to let you go, you turned up and worked it through.

So, from the other side of the couch..there's two aspects here. One is related to anger about something the therapist has said or done. The other one, and the one I think you're referring to, is when anger gets projected onto the therapist that's really about the client's own displaced anger. That is, anger related to the client's history.

If you're asking how I experience anger that's clearly displaced from somewhere else...then let me assure you, it can be tough but nothing that isn't in my job description!

That's great to hear you're working it through. That's how the healing occurs.

All the best,
Shrinklady

Shrinklady, thank you for your very kind words, funny, but you sound EXACTLY like my therapist. He tells me, a lot, that the only reason he can understand is that I come and show him what its like for me. I do realize that I'm working really hard, but its also with a deep understanding that the work is happening because there's now a safe place to do it. The truth is, that I've found the right therapist for me. We work really well together and that's letting me go deeper than I've ever been able to before. Really hard sometimes but worth it. And I love the way you described it, that he "won't let me pull away" that's exactly it.

And, yeah, I would describe this as a case of displaced anger. I think part of the reason it was difficult is that I felt so childish.
And so scared. Good to hear it's in the job description! Your saying that makes me feel more secure that I didn't really hurt him. Thanks so much for commenting and for being so supportive. Its really affirming to hear that what you see is that healing is occuring.

AG

Attachment Girl,

I sort of envy you that you can talk so much and work on so much stuff with your T.
I still feel that I'm not able to talk about my feelings. I feel a lot, but I can't talk about it. I tell him bits, but I don't fully reveal what I would like to reveal. Probably that is also something I have to work on with him. Could it be that I don't trust him enough yet?
I really care about him, and want to trust him so much... but then I end up not telling him 90% of what I would like to tell him.

Hi all.

AG: I know what you mean about caring about your T. I think it was SG who pointed out to me how much I was worried about respecting the boundaries and creating the image of a "good patient" for him. I only began to realise the extent to which I was doing this after I left. When I began to think about the trouble the transference feelings were causing me I realised that I had bottled a few things up. It took me a number of months to bring myself to tell him about details of things that I had done and felt that I had omitted previously because I wanted him to think of me as "special" and to not have the usual messiness or flaws that everyone else has. Though in the end I got there. Not quite with the erotic transference but I was sometimes amazed at the stuff I spoke to him about.And I think that was down to his honestly with me.

I will never forget the day he said that he knew I was angry with him for a number of weeks. I barely knew this myself. On reflection I had been frustrated. His insight lead me to realise so much more about myself and how I was feeling. That I had wanted him to "save me" and take total responsibility. I don't think he realised how much of it was to do with him but perhaps he knew that it was more to do with his position and work than him as a person. Following that discussion he explained to me that attention from all of the psychologists in the world wouldn't make me feel better and in fact would make me feel more helpless.At that point I wanted to give up completely. If I could've checked in somewhere,anywhere at that point I would've. It was so hard to understand. I can't imagine how hard it was to leave me act as I did and not give in to my despair. He chose the much harder option and I'm trying to take solace from these things to search for evidence that he cared for me. I want to feel it so badly, maybe I'm deluding myself and trying to comfort myself in any way possible at the moment.

Amazon: How long have you been seeing your T? Not that you can put a time on it. For me it took a long time to open up. I think the intensive trauma work we did together accelerated the process a lot. But I think like all relationships it's a fluid thing. After a few revelations from my T about how he had suspected my dependency but hadn't said anything as I needed to figure it out on my own, I had to take stock and build up my trust again. Or maybe it was that I had gotten so close to him that I was getting uncomfortable. That my transference feelings were leading me to lose trust in him. A good few of the final sessions included me asking him if he was just placating me. I couldn't get it out of my head. Just like with other people in my life. I think they're just being nice to me out of loyalty or politeness. If you're T is a good one he'll wait. He'll help you work through it at your own pace. Even being able to say that you find it difficult to tell him some things would be really helpful. He could address your anxiety about telling him such things perhaps.

Best of luck with it.

Mrs. P

Mrs. P
I'm seeing my T for just a couple of months (6-7 months). I got really scared by the transference.
He is a therapist in training (so I can afford him), but that doesn't really worry me. I presume he is in constant supervision, I am not his first client and I think that because he is still gaining his experience he really wants to do his best and really cares about what he's doing.
But then I really want to do my best and be good client or even best client. I suppose I do have all the time in the world to get things out in the open. How long did it take you?

Hi Amazon,
I'm so sorry it's taken me so long to respond, there's been way too much "life" going on as of late, leaving very little time to read let alone post.

It was kind of cool reading this thread again because this was the first time I opened up to my T about being angry. It wasn't the last. I've definitely expressed anger to him on a LOT of topics. He usually gets boatload after each vacation. The last time I got really angry was because he wouldn't get up and come over and hold me and tell me everything would be ok. When he told me that even if he did it wouldn't work, I got angry at him for not lying to me. It has taken me a long time to get comfortable with the fact that alot of my emotions are irrational, but that shouldn't stop me from expressing them.

But one of the reasons I can talk to my T about so much (and honestly, at this point, there isn't too much I haven't said)it's because each time I went to him he has remained non-defensive and calm no matter what I was expressing. And he has accepted and understood my feelings. Every time that happens makes it just an iota easier to do the next time. Over time that has progressed into my believing that there I really can bring any of my feelings into my session and talk about them without fear of the relationship being damaged.

But I will tell you that it was a long, slow, sometimes painful and often terrifying process (why anyone stays in therapy after reading my posts I'll never know ) When we have not experienced our feelings being welcome, then expressing them is a really really scary thing to do and it takes awhile to build the trust necessary. You said you haven't said 90% of what you're feeling? Be proud of yourself for saying that 10%. It's more than some people get to.

I should tell you that I spent over 18 years (on and off) in therapy with my first therapist, and I have been working with my present therapist around five years (the first two was couples counseling, which is where I first started to get a glimmer that maybe here was a man I could trust) so be patient with yourself. (And I have to also give credit to my T, he's been doing this over 30 years, and in addition to a lot of experience is really gifted at the work. He makes it a lot easier to go there.)

And I understand your wish to be a "good" client. But being a "good" client doesnt' mean not ever being upset or getting it right. Your therapist is committed to your well being and the path to healing can often involve a lot of mess and confusion. Part of the point of therapy is that you don't have to "perform" to keep the relationship. You're accepted and valuable just as you are, no matter what that is. Through this relationship I've learned to accept all of myself. Some of it isn't so pretty, some of it I'm not particularly proud of, but it's all human and it's really alright that I contain all that inside of me.

Give yourself time, you'll get there.

AG

Hi Amazon and AG.

AG-thanks for that post. It was wonderful reading about your openness with your T and how supported you feel by your current T. Like you said, it is good of Amazon (IMHO) even to have gotten to the 10%.

Amazon-I think what's really important is that you recognise that you're finding it hard to open up and that you are holding back. For most of us I feel like we withhold info. without even realising it-which is obviously a lot harder to address since we don't even know it's there!!!And you seem to be putting thought into this, you care about your T and getting the help you need.

As for me-I don't think you can put a time on it. Like I said before, I think it's fluid. I gained some trust along the way, it became easier to say "well I felt like such and such when you said that" or "I'm sick of hearing the glass is half full arguments" etc. etc. But then at times I became so angry and suspicious with my T-like he was just saying nice things to keep me sweet and get me out of his hair. And this became more complicated as the transference feelings intensified.

The issue I went to see my T about centered around one incident that happened over a year ago. I was having trouble concentrating at college. Eventually we got round to disucssing it a bit. It was incredibly painful. I clammed up a lot-dissociated, stared at the floor. I was going to a male T about something so personal and private that at the very least I felt I would've been more comfortable with speaking with a female T over. And in the end, I have told that man things I never have and probably never will tell anyone else. Every detail. I did struggle with telling him things about me that I thought would lower his opinion of me. It took a long time. The day I decided to tell him I chickened out. He read it from my body language and so I told him. He cared about me so much-he analyzed every sigh, every movement, every word.

I hope you're lucky enough to achieve a deep and trusting therapeutic relationship with your T. My God is it hard work and it takes two to tango but the benefits can be great. I don't know if I'll even have a relationship as special, for all the ups and downs.

Best wishes with your sessions and opening up-just take thing at your own pace,

Mrs. P

Mrs. P like you I'm amazed at the things I have told my male T. It didn't come easily and I woudl worry all the time that he was judging me and that if I allowed him to see the not so perfect side of me he would suddenly dislike me or not even want to treat me any longer. I remember the day where I sat there crying that I was spilling my toxic waste all over his nice rug and he very calmly told me that there was nothing toxic about me and I had very real concerns and that nothing I tell him could drive him away from me. But it was more than the words, it was the WAY he said them and the expression on his face that was so healing and that reached inside of me past the brick wall I usually have in place. I was so upset and worried when I went in and I actually felt peaceful when I left... at least for a little while. I have tested him time and time again before I would tell him something. It actually got to the point when I knew I had to tell him something scary because I would get mad at him for a few session before I finally told him. Once I even accused him of just being nice to me because I pay him! I would not be on my best behavior and I think in a way I was testing to see if he would stay. He has. So of course now I'm looking for reasons to run from him! I have to put some faith in AG and what she says about it eventually getting better and the trust will come and stay longer and feel stronger.

I'm sort of understanding now that I don't have to be perfect and he still cares and has not thrown me out LOL. Some days are easier than others.

TN

quote:

When we have not experienced our feelings being welcome, then expressing them is a really really scary thing to do and it takes awhile to build the trust necessary.

quote:

I should tell you that I spent over 18 years (on and off) in therapy with my first therapist, and I have been working with my present therapist around five years (the first two was couples counseling, which is where I first started to get a glimmer that maybe here was a man I could trust) so be patient with yourself.

AG, I hope this isn't too personal a question, but I really truly want to know...how did you find a therapist who was willing to stick with you for the long-term? Did you enter therapy thinking it would last this long? It seems to me that all the therapists for MILES around where I live practice short-term therapy only. I don't think my therapist would allow me to keep seeing her for more than a year even if I wanted to. She says she will not abandon me, that as long as I think there is more she can help me with then we can keep meeting, but I don't completely trust her words. I think she will eventually push me away before I feel ready. So I find myself pulling away before she can do that.

quote:

I woudl worry all the time that he was judging me and that if I allowed him to see the not so perfect side of me he would suddenly dislike me or not even want to treat me any longer.

TN, I have been guilty of this too. I hope I can eventually fully trust my T, but for now I keep searching for proof that I have angered or disappointed her in some way, and that it will mean the end of our relationship.

Hi MH,
I have no problem with you asking. I actually found both my therapists through my husband. We did pre and post marital counseling with my first T because we knew we both had a lot of baggage (I always say we had matching Louis Vitton trunks!) and she basically kicked us out because we were doing ok. A few years later I went back to her to deal with a life long weight problem which I couldn't discuss without melting down. At that point I consciously remembered my father's alcoholism and the violence (although I didn't have any conscious memories of being hit, just being terrified of his temper) and I no way expected to be in therapy this long. Which is good, because I probably would have fled screaming.

I did everything wrong in picking a therapist, I never explicitly discussed how long therapy would go or even set goals. After working with my first therapist for a while and seeing a lot of improvement, I was part of a group therapy that my therapist led with another therapist. I made huge strides in group therapy but came face to face with my suppressed anger (ok, rage would be more accurate) which scared me so badly I fled. As in disappeared, didn't schedule another appt, didn't call my therapist (I flinch when I remember this.) A few years later, I was really struggling with my anger and was worried about what I would do to my children (my mothering has long been overshadowed by a fear that I would become my father or my mother.) I called her and went back. She was gracious enough to take me back without berating me for leaving that way. (Although that was part of why I stuck it out through my ending with her. I had promised myself I wouldn't do that to her again) It was during this period that I recovered memories of being sexually abused and I've pretty much been in therapy since. Both of my therapists have made it clear to me that it takes time to heal form this stuff. And my present T told me that I essentially used therapy in order to be able to live my life until I was able to heal. What I really wonder is what they've been saying to my insurance company all these years. We have really good coverage and at this point my insurance company has spent thousands of dollars on me. I keep thinking that my therapists are sending in paperwork with things like "she's a complete wingbat!! keep sending cash!"

I don't know what type of therapist you're working with, but CBT therapists tend to be short term but most other psychodynamic therapists will go however long it takes to resolve your issues. Although the trend these days from insurance companies is push short term therapies. Both of my therapists have been around 12 years older than me and started practice at a time when longer term therapy was considered the rule.

If your therapist has told you that she will not abandon you and will continue to work with you as long as she can help you, I would believe it. My present therapist told me early on that I was welcome to come and see him as long as I wanted to, that he would not ask me to leave. Hearing this was the only thing that allowed me to make progress because otherwise getting better would have meant leaving and at the time I pretty much felt like I would literally die if I lost him. The best thing to do would be to bring this up with your therapist. Tell her that your worried there's an expiration date and that is bothering you. This is a very reasonable thing to talk to your therapist about and she should be very comfortable discussing it.

Reading between the lines I'm hearing a real fear of abandonment (shot in the dark since I know next to nothing of your background so feel free to disregard this if you think I'm wrong.) When you have those types of issues it can take a long time just to build enough trust to start doing the work.

And your worry about angering or disappointing your T and ending the relationship tells me that you probably didn't experience a lot of acceptance or security in your childhood. The truth is that your T is the closet you'll come to unconditional love here on earth. This relationship is about your needs and feelings, so even if you do anger or disappoint your therapist (which trust me is not nearly as likely as you think it is) that is her issue to deal with, so that she is able to stay and hear your feelings.

I would really urge you to open up to your therapist about these fears so you can experience something different and she can reassure you. Trying to do the difficult work of therapy with one foot out the door is almost impossible.

AG

originally posted by Mrs. P:

quote:

I know what you mean about caring about your T. I think it was SG who pointed out to me how much I was worried about respecting the boundaries and creating the image of a "good patient" for him.

This is an interesting thread. Is it a bad thing to be conscientious about your T's needs? Mrs. P I saw myself in your above statement. I had not considered before that it might get in the way somehow. I know I have been doing a bit of this. For example, I told my T she should charge me extra for the time she spent out of session recently reading some things I had written. (I have such a difficult time opening up to her face-to-face that I have been writing things out instead. Only I didn't give them to her to read until I had accumulated quite a stack, so when I finally handed it over it probably took her an hour to read it all!) Anyway, she said, "Is that really what you want, for me to charge you extra?" And I said I just didn't want to feel like I was taking advantage of her. She replied that I could not take advantage of her because she wouldn't let me. Another thing I do is find myself watching the clock and reminding her that we need to end the session or we will go over time (because she has done that for me without me asking for it) and I do not want to cause any resentment or expectation that I am a special case. Maybe I am not worried about her so much as I am worried about how she will feel towards me if I am not attentive to her needs.

originally posted by AG:

quote:

If your therapist has told you that she will not abandon you and will continue to work with you as long as she can help you, I would believe it.

I don't know what else I want her to say to reassure me, but I still keep looking for reasons to doubt her. For example, after my last session when it felt like she minimized my pain after a particularly difficult disclosure, I can now imagine her also minimizing my need to keep coming to therapy. The key phrase is that the therapy can continue "as long as she can help me" but what if she believes I don't need her help anymore? I don't want to feel I must prove that I need her. But I will think about bringing up my "expiration date" fears again, as AG put it, because it is a road block right now.