Hi again all

In my current quest for a new T I’ve had to do some serious thinking about the way different therapists affect me. One thing that keeps coming up is some kind of instinctive aversion in me to seeing a male T - but when I try and pin it down I don’t understand it (read - I can’t put it into a nice neat intellectual package of words telling me why!)

At the same time my instinctive feeling is to gravitate towards a female T - but when I look at that too, nothing concrete surfaces. And in fact the most damaging and judgemental Ts I’ve had over the years have been women so you’d think I’d be doubly wary of them.

When I do think about it it’s clear that I’ve got some kind of internal pattern dictating how I see men/women (this is global not just in relation to therapists.) I think I need to get this clearer in my head as chances are I will be going back to ex-T (who is a man) and the whole gender thing seems to be getting in the way.

As I’m in information gathering mode now (a way I have of dealing with crap feelings that have no outlet) I was wondering what thoughts you guys had on the differences between male and female Ts and how you feel about seeing one gender or the other?

Thanks

Lamplighter

LL all my T's have been women, because of SA I think i would feel really uncomfortable around a male T. I think maybe working with a male T would be good for me but i can't do it.

I'm sitting here trying to work out why i rather see a female T but can only think it has to do with my abuse.

I think i need to think about this more

Hev

Hi LL... I currently have a male T and would NEVER consider seeing a female T... ever. It would be impossible. Just don't trust females. Of course I can trace my preferences back to my younger days. Things with my mother were always stormy and she was abusive to me in a number of ways. My father was a very weak presence in my life, basically had very little influence on me. I also worked for many years as an Admin Assistant for various women and men and always got along much better with the men. I found the women were heartless, pushy, inconsiderate, demeaning, sneaky and yes the "b" word too.

I think because I never had a strong male presence in my life I gravitate towards a male T. My T is that bigger, stronger, wiser other that I crave in my life. He also has what we may consider some feminine traits... by that I mean he is sensitive, patient, empathic, caring, he listens really well and even though sometimes he tries to FIX things instead of just listening, when I point this out to him he takes my comments seriously and goes back to listening mode. I think it works so well with us because I can trust him and feel a level of safety with him that I could never feel with a female T.

TN

Hi LL - good question.

Now I have never had a male T so can't really judge, but can say why I personally find it helpful to have a female.

The abuse issues I am dealing with I know I would never initially have told a male. I used to have trouble enough speaking to a female, and even then I used to be wary that she might do the same to me once she knew...illogical I know but true. The subject matter and detail I wouldn't have been able to discuss with a male; I get embarrassed now with my T but I don't think I could have gone there with a male and that would have been detrimental to my progress, because I do need to do that verydifficult work and be able to say those things in order to understand and move on. For me it helps talking to a woman - there is a female empathy between us, and whilst she hasn't had my experiences, she can understand some of my issues as she is a woman.

My T is nothing like my mother, we are similar in age and outlook on life which helps. I don't think I would want a much older female T though in case I started to compare the two or wish my T was my mother. That would be very hard for me. I totally trust my T, accept that I need her because of how she is helping me, although I battle to be independent, in case needing anybody causes any more pain if they then leave me. But she has shown by being constant that she will not do that and that is one of the biggest gifts she could give me.

She is also able to hold my hand, give me safe hugs etc, etc which would not be so easy for me to accept from a man maybe, or for a man to give without crossing difficult boundaries. If a male were to hug me after a flashback of abuse, I am pretty sure that I would be triggered again. To hear the gentle voice of my female T and have her support me, is part of my learning I am safe.

But that's just me and I might be writing a very different post were I initially given a male T! I just don't know. I can see advantages of both sexes. Maybe LL it's about the person, their methods, outlook, experience, beliefs that are the most important thing rather than their sex.

starfish

I have only had one T that was a male and he was fired after one session. I've had bad female T's as well, but the two T's that I've had that were the best (one past and one current) are both female. I was abused by both sexes so in that way you'd think I would be wary of both, but I would be more afraid of being alone in a room with a man. I also feel like I have more transference issues to work out with a female T. My T and I are frequently running into issues where she will seem like my mom. Not in the "I need a mom and I wish you were it" kind of way either. More like, I look across to her chair and she will suddenly look and sound like my mother. Scares the crud out of me! We have been working on that quite a bit lately and slowly but surely it is getting better. So, while I really need a positive role model for both sexes, I really need the female more. I have a great husband and he has helped immensely with the male gender issues, but I don't have a way to work out the mother issues and so I feel like I need a female T for that.

This is an interesting thread, and it's something I've thought about off and on for a while. I realized, as I began my search for a new T, that the whole list of therapists my former T gave to me was entirely women. There was one number for a place that has lots of therapists, so I could have been matched with a male, but it seemed like maybe I gave off the impression that I'm more comfortable with females. Which is true for the most part. I've always thought that I would feel a whole lot more insecure and unsure about a male T, but one of the leaders of the group I was in was male, and I never felt uncomfortable. Or, more uncomfortable than I normally do with any therapist, that is.

I tend to see women as being gentler with me and men being less likely to "get" it. This is very true of how I grew up - my father has never understood me and never tried. I think of myself as being open with people and giving most everyone the benefit of the doubt, but I know that growing up that way must have some sort of effect on me. I think that, if I had the opportunity and I couldn't get back in with my former T, I may have tried to seek out individual therapy with the one leader from group. But, despite being comfortable around him, I don't think I would ever ever actively seek to find a therapist and include men in those that I contacted. I just don't trust them enough in general to do that.

Male vs Female T

quote:

as a female I like to meander and play with abstract ideas, play with metaphors etc, focus on unnecessary but interesting detail. My husband - and I suspect my T - gets frustrated and impatient with such stuff.

I would find that very tough. I am a big abstract thinker, and I now know my T (who is female) is too. In the last session, we were talking about where I "feel" self-doubt, and she asked me if I felt it in my legs, and I said that I didn't. I rode horses my whole life until I went to college, and she asked me if I used to use my legs a lot riding, which I do. It's all about communicating with your legs - she kind of said "interesting..." in a way that indicated she would muse over that idea for a little bit. We didn't explore that further, but that's the sort of thing that I find fascinating.

Hm lots of interesting things you guys have been saying, thanks for the responses it’s given me different perspectives on this whole gender thing that I can’t for the life of me pin down.

quote:

an important part of the counselling experience for me is the value of connecting with a stronger, more stable other

Monte that’s exactly how I think I see men, or did. No surprise that throughout my life I’ve been attracted to the ‘strong silent type’ lol. But having had Ts of both genders now I’m beginning to suspect that what I take to be strength in a man is actually emotional detachment (which translates as ‘not having a clue how to handle pure feelings’ and ‘not having experience of dealing with their own messy feelings’).

As for instinctively preferring a female T I think it has a lot to do with what some of you have said (also in the link that AG provided) about being REALLY uncomfortable talking about not only sex with a male T but ANYTHING to do with the body (and therefore, by extension, expressing feelings which tends to be physical.)

Dunno it makes me feel creepy even now just thinking about it. And it’s not like I’ve got any experience of physical abuse either (not to my knowledge anyway.) Perceived wisdom would say ideal opportunity to work though these kinds of feelings with a male T but I think for me those aversive feelings are so strong they could end up sabotaging the therapy.

It’s funny too that I have these global background images of how a female T would be - all kind and caring and emotionally up front - so I go in expecting sympathy and emotional understanding - and yet it’s the female Ts who strike me as more judgemental, critical, withholding and ‘stern’ than the male ones. The male Ts I’ve had seem much more open to going along with what I say I need (which paradoxically I see as being a bit ‘blowing with the wind’ ie that I can influence them too easily and so end up feeling like they don’t really know what they are doing because they keep changing all the time according to what I am saying - there’s the stability Monte that you are talking about, I just don’t get it from them - that sense that no matter what I say they still hold a solid overall grasp of what I really need, and I just don’t get that.)

It’s like the image of what a woman should be like doesn’t at all match the reality. Which of course throws me for a loop. You’d think it would be the other way around for me seeing as how all the women in my childhood were really authoritarian abusive controlling and totally uncaring on any kind of emotional level, and the men the ‘nicer’ kinder less openly abusive (verbally.) In fact the men in my childhood were ‘dishcloths’ (to quote a family member) well and truly under the thumb of the women and so (I now see) came across as weak and wishy washy and unable to stand up either for themselves or for me. But at the same time as authoritarian and dismissive and uncaring towards me as the women.

My disastrous experience with the new T recently (as exhaustively detailed in Unbelievably Bad Session) really flagged up for me the weird conflicting images I have about women. I’m pretty sure I’m unconsciously looking for a mother substitute (my own mother buggered off when I was three but I do have hazy memories of a nice kind caring loving smiling mother somewhere in my head, I’m guessing that’s such a strong imprint that no matter how vile subsequent women have been to me I still hold onto those golden images as being what women ‘really’ are like. Lol why let reality get in the way of a nice pipe dream eh?

Sorry I’m being flippant when really this whole topic is quite a can of worms for me - it’s just that I’m in shut down feeling let’s be intellectual and rational about these things mode right now that’s how I survive crap that’s going on in my life (at the moment, still T-less).

Monte thanks for your words about the whole looking for a new T experience. Yeah you’re right jaded is about the word for it. Defeated and at the point where each time I meet a new T I almost can’t be bothered. I trot out the story in such a way that I practically know in advance what’s the bloody point this brainless cabbage isn’t going to get it anyway. I think it’s a BIG disadvantage having been in therapy so often through my life and now knowing pretty clearly what I think I need from therapy - the pressure is really on a T to come up with the goods pretty quickly (too quickly, I’m now thinking.)

Yes too I’ve got an appointment with ex-T next week to discuss going back into therapy with him - as you say good enough may be good enough lol. But no matter how much I’m telling myself to compromise on my expectations (and I CAN do that, been doing it all my life lol) the fact that he is a he is a big problem. And it’s all to do with the feelings stuff - he just doesn’t get it and even though he’s been more than willing to go along with what I suggest on that front I still retain the sense that he is unable to go into the emotional places I need him to take me. I thought maybe it was lack of experience, but I think in fact it’s probably a lot more to do with the gender thing. Dunno maybe there are male Ts out there who are eminently capable of dealing directly with feelings (AG’s wonderful T springs to mind) but I’m beginning to think that’s uncommon. Gah I don’t know, just rambling here now.

Any one else’s thoughts on this bloody topic most welcome!

Lamplighter

Hi LL,

Sorry for not responding in more depth to this and all the other stuff going on - I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed right now (some of the reasons you'll see in that 'T leaving' thread) but I don't think you're killing threads. I think the quietness right now is just part of the normal ebb and flow of the board.

quote:

My disastrous experience with the new T recently (as exhaustively detailed in Unbelievably Bad Session) really flagged up for me the weird conflicting images I have about women. I’m pretty sure I’m unconsciously looking for a mother substitute (my own mother buggered off when I was three but I do have hazy memories of a nice kind caring loving smiling mother somewhere in my head, I’m guessing that’s such a strong imprint that no matter how vile subsequent women have been to me I still hold onto those golden images as being what women ‘really’ are like. Lol why let reality get in the way of a nice pipe dream eh?

This just struck me as really interesting and powerful. I can really see how the three year old part of you would really really need to hold on to that treasured image of a beloved and loving mum, to hold on to the feeling and hope of being loved. I started out responding to this intellectually too, because that's where I'm at with my own mother-issues, but as I write actually I'm starting to feel how horrible and horribly sad that is. LL, I'm so so sorry that you lost your mum.

I don't know if you can feel that feeling yourself (do you? is that too personal to ask?) but... ow.... The pain of it feels very present in these few words you've written about it and I don't know if I'm saying anything right here. I just want you to know I felt that from your words. I wonder if you see that loss connected to the bitter disappointments you've had with women too.

One of the things I've been finding really rough to grapple with in my own therapy lately is that anger of having my beloved dad replaced with an other who seemed to me quite evil. It's really really hard to negotiate because on the one hand he DID treat me like crap, especially once I hit adolescence. But I'm having to (ugh) recognise that I was already carrying so much anger and probably would have been even if he was a good parent.

I've been wondering if I 'made' him a bad parent by feeling so angry. It's a freaky thought. But when I think it through I think no, it was his responsibility to be a good parent anyway, even if I was struggling to adjust. And luckily I remember enough stuff to know that he was pretty sub-standard (if not 'evil'), even from the beginning.

Okay, now I'm just rambling here, but maybe there's something relevant in it - don't know - but there it is.... Thanks for this post.

J

I prefer a male T. I need to feel compassion from a man because of the abuse from my husband.
As far as dealing with sexual issues, we rarely discuss them...thank God. Because I would feel unfortable and he apparently knows that.
I dont know how important those issues are anyways in my therapy. Except the minor problem of transference....T is the object of my fantasies. I cant talk about that with him
I would be so humiliated. Do you think he knows? Do they sense it? Its never come up.

Jones I never meant to make anyone feel guilty for not replying to threads - the thread killer comment was more of a minor freak out on my part at posting so much and feeling like a prat for it. So thanks for taking the time to reply in this thread, especially with what you've got going on for you right now.

quote:

I don't know if you can feel that feeling yourself

Interestingly I have to answer no even though I KNOW there's a huge well of all sorts of conflicting feelings somewhere back in my head in relation to my mother (and father and stepmother and well hell the whole lot of them). I have a very well developed way of telling stories about myself without actually experiencing what they mean to me (having learnt to wrap up my past in neat little explanatory packages because basically no-one gave a damn and I learned not to give a damn too). That's a big part of what I'm hoping for from therapy - to get someone else's sympathetic take on my stories so I can get to feel sympathy for me too. Can't do it on my own too many prosciptions. So your sharing how it was making you feel REALLY means a lot to me - thankyou.

quote:

I've been wondering if I 'made' him a bad parent by feeling so angry

I'm glad you can see that that's NOT TRUE. I hope you can see it on more than just a rational level though - because that's about where I'm at. No matter how much I tell myself I didn't 'make' my lot treat me the way they did, deep down I believe it was me and all my fault. Well it didn't help that they gave me that message too, both overtly and covertly. I swing between anger and shame and underneath it all a black pain so real conflict and it's just easier to keep skimming along on the surface accepting the status quo for now - after all I've had decades of living with self blame it's normal to me.

I suppose it's inevitable mothers and fathers come up in a discussion on therapist gender. I keep meaning to start a thread on parents but keep chickening out. It's almost like it's say nothing or say everything and that's pretty scary. Maybe bits of it can come out in this thread.

Lizzygirl I'm not sure if you're being tongue in cheek there or not when you talk about the 'minor' problem of transference! I think that's something which would totally freak me out with a male T - if I so much as had a fleeting glimpse of being attracted to a male T in any way I'd run a mile - the sorts of patterns that would have me re-enacting I just couldn't cope with never mind that you're supposed to be able to work them out with the T. Maybe AG got ir the right way around - start off with one gender T and then move on to another gender to finish the work off. Now there's a thought.

Lamplighter

Hi LL,

No guilt, just I know how it feels to be the very talky one in the silent (virtual) room!

I relate to telling the stories without feeling the feelings. Sometimes I feel like I'm working with memories of memories of memories that I've worked to death in order to get control of them.

But I think there is something 'real' under there if it's causing conflict in me... and that when the 'real' stuff is really fully heard it brings with it a peaceful feeling. I am so hoping that you will soon get to connect with someone who will give you that blessed listening.

I keep coming back to your words about your mother. I was moved away from my dad when I was four. I have yet to really tap that well of emotion. The thought of losing a mum at three is pretty horrifying. I'm not surprised that some protective part of you is keeping that well of feeling covered up until you have a safe place to look at it.

The self blame... the self blame I try to stay away from when I can. It hurts so much, no matter how much you 'get used to it'. I hope you can get some relief from this soon.

As for male and female Ts - I'm relieved my T decided not to refer me to a man - I know it would have been productive for me, but certainly not 'safe'. A woman will be productive too, especially now I'm starting to tackle some of the mother stuff head-on.

Take care,
J

male? so complicated with their possible counter transference and liability issues, that, he just couldn't step over that figurative line and do a THING toward healing the inner child. in fact, the coldness and i guess, over thought out boundary, just left me hurting more at why i didn't mean anything to him with all the pain and stuff he had seen me through. not at all that i wanted to cross any boundaries with my or his marriage, but compassion sure woulda felt good. and i really didn't see it and it still hurts. i try to decifer if i was looking for more and i really don't think i was...just compassion, humanity...nope, just a blank face, and the REINJURY i felt by again, an authority figure/helper/caretaker NOT caring, i dunno, i am just left feeling reinjured.

now with a female, it is early, but, i think healing is more apt to come here, even tho i have massive mother 'hatred', and have ALWAYS thought women were catty and competitive, and, i dunno,i feel a bit of a catch 22, a man can't get close enough emotionally to heal, never thought much of a women's opinion, so which is going to be best??

i think, for me, a women. i don't worry about saying aomething she might misinterpret (as the one time i mentioned that i wished he could meet my kids, just to see how awesome they are and he just physically did the referee 'no' sign, w/o realizing it, i am sure, WOW, a bit oversensitive to getting out of boundaries, i suspect)

so, unless you can REALLY handle not suspecting 'other' issues going on in your t's head that make him, for me, keep TOO emotionally reserved for healing, then i recommend same sex.

ah, yes, the 'thick' issue, yes T1 didn't get ALOT of what i said, he even admitted that men aren't up to all the nuances i tend to wrestle (in more words than that, he said they were a bit thick, but he demonstrated it ALL THE BLANKING TIME!) wow, i really have some RAGE against his thick skull i need to work through...VENTING TRIGGER!!!! i just hate him for watching me 'like a fish out of water, flopping on the deck' for month after month...nine of them, without having the tools or compassion or humanity to f0ing DO SOMETHING HELPFUL!! honestly, i feel like he just cashed my check and somewhat enjoyed watching a pretty woman NEED him, and FOR WHAT??? he really has no tools in his toolbox. arrogant and ignorant, and a minister to boot! a lethal combination, the 'God' thing really made me mistrust my accuratae perceptions that he had little experience, training, compassion, humanity, and ETHICS to keep seeing me. it is so obvious now, but i really was so blinded by what i thought HAD to be an honest, ethical person. i would love to send him this, he hurt me so much, by NOT being humane to me. and i am so f-ing starved for humane treatment by a caregiver/authority type, that i don't even RECOGNIZE MORE NEGLECT!! IT ALL IS SO NORMAL TO ME!!! AAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! i HATE him. i HATE him. i HATE HIM. arrogant and igorant, and NOT a man of the Lord. a fake!

ok, i am back now....

AG,LL, yes, the male opened up the can of worms, and as usual, the women has to clean it all up!! and WHAT a mess he made!!

Welcome Provacative Girl! You made some really good points as to why I prefer a male T (even if lately I wanted to clobber him). The issues I had with my mom and also with many female professionals that I have worked with/for have totally turned me off to the thought of having a female T. I don't hire females in any capacity... doctors, dentists, accountants etc.

Finding a compassionate man who has taught me that safe touch exists, who is totally ethical and who calms and soothes me has been a valuable experience.

jill... I can see where you would feel such rage and upset at a man who held out a promise of understanding and compassion but never presented anything but that blank slate. Yes, it does get complicated with opposite sex therapeutic dyads but that can be worked through if the T has enough confidence and will to see it through. What you got instead was another authority figure not meeting any of your needs and disappointing you and also keeping you at a far distance. How could you ever feel safe enough to confide your most troubling thoughts to a person like that. He obviously just didn't get it. There is research that trauma patients need MORE openness from their Ts in order to feel safe enough to confide in them. They need more flexible and negotiable boundaries in order to do therapy.

I'm sorry you are still so hurt by his behavior. I guess this is something you can talk to your new T about and of course you can always talk to us here.

TN