I didn't know what to name this topic. I was talking to my T yesterday and since he had a difficult time dealing with my transference, I asked him if he'd ever had feelings that weren't reciprocated. And he said no.

I felt so much anger, right then and there, that I looked down and couldn't talk. T asked me what was going on and I finally managed to say, oh, I hate those kind of people. I honestly feel so much anger towards those kind of people. And I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone here. I don't mean to. It's just that I've struggled socially so much and have seen people not include other people (me) when an invitation would have meant so much.

I know the whole point is that I've probably isolated and excluded myself BECAUSE of my anger and that if I could get over it, I might have the potential of making some nice friends. But, I don't know if I could ever forgive anyone who has never had to struggle socially. I honestly don't know if I'd ever want to be friends with someone who has never struggled socially.

I like my T and maybe this is an opportunity to finally get over my anger but it is so strong that I don't know if I can. I know it's not about him.

Just wondering if anyone has had any kind of similar experiences and/or any wisdom or advice to share.

Thanks,

xoxo

Liese

Well you already realize it's not about him, so honestly you are making his job really easy for him! I think you should definitely bring it up!

God, my T would probably get all excited if I actually got angry at her. I haven't even cried in her office yet after like 9 sessions

this is interesting. i can entirely relate.
id say just keep trying to say more about hatred you feel towards people who have not struggled socially.

Liese,

I think its totally understandable that you get angry when your T said he's never struggled socially. Honestly, I find it hard to believe as even the most secure of people have occasional awkward moments. And as for unrequited love, I didn't think they let you graduate from HS without first experiencing it.

But the truth is that people who have good enough parenting, and have secure attachment, carry a deeply felt sense of their own worth so that bad social situations can be shrugged off instead of taken to heart and seen as reflection on them.

My T had a rugby analogy where he talked about how some people could go out on a Saturday and play hours of Rugby, get banged up, go home, take a hot bath and be fine. While a hemophiliac could start bleeding in the first scrum and end up dying. People with trauma or neglect lack emotional resiliance, so that when something bad happens, as it inevitably will, it wounds us deeper and takes more for us to get past it.

So in a sense that anger you feel is over what you didn't get, that you weren't taught your own worth. If you had been, then every time you were overlooked, it wouldn't become about who you are or how valued you are. It's a painful way to live, I've been there also.

I would also think it has to be angering from the standpoint of "how useful can you be if you cannot understand how this feels or see this from my point of view." Could it be that this feels like your T can't meet your needs and you're angry about that?

I think it would be really good to explore this in therapy. I know that is really scary but you've also shown your courage in the past in walking into tough issues and discussing them. I hope you can get to the root of your anger. But in the meantime, it's really ok that you're feeling angry.

AG

PS Glad you have a working computer again!

Liese, I think what AG wrote is very true and very wise. Those of us with lower self-esteem and self-doubt will be hurt more easily and blame ourselves if we don't get the invitation or the inclusion in the group. We need to start seeing it as the other person's loss because they were too stupid to see our value and worth.

As for being angry at T. I say that is good and go back and tell him. I felt this way when T and I were talking about my education. I have always struggled with feeling less than for not finishing college and getting a 4 year degree. Now that I will be graduating in the Spring I want to go on to grad school but there is the financial issue, lack of family support and having the time and energy to do this while working full time and taking care of a family. When my T said "I understand how you feel" I wanted to throw my shoe at him and I did tell him..."how can you sit there and tell me you understand when you went to all the school you wanted to, you have THREE degrees and you are doing a job you chose and you love". He sort of back tracked and said.... I understand how awful it must feel because of how much I value my education and can't even imagine being denied it. So that opened the conversation to keep talking about it and my grief over losing the chance that he had.

So I think this is a good opportunity to explore the hurt you feel over this topic.

And btw, I do think your T cares for you because he shows it in what he does for you. He may feel discomfort in admitting it (still hanging onto that CBT training LOL) but he behaves in ways that really tell us how he feels. I know it's hard for you to see and believe, but I see it.

I'm sorry for your pain. I hope you can address this on Thursday. I'm rooting for you.

Hugs
TN

that is really interesting, the piece that AG wrote about being angry that you weren't taught your own worth.
it puts into context the rage one can feel when a person is diminishing or intrusive or neglectful. its an indication that the parent is behaving in such a way due to the child's worthlessness rather than the parents own limitations.

Hey Alpaca, Da Rock, AG and TN,

Thanks for all the different perspectives and your support. I really hit something HUGE here because I've been struggling (well, more than usual) all week.

I don't know if it's just a defense mechanism that is coming into play that NOW I will be questioning T's effectiveness because it seems as though his inability to understand what my world feels like contributed a huge amount to the enactment that went on last year. I am wondering if it is just a defense because he is working triple time trying to repair things with me. It's just a fact that I don't know what his emotional world feels like and he doesn't know what mine feels like.

BTW, AG and TN, I quoted both your T's this week in therapy, trying to give him a different perspective, just in case he was interested. AG, I told him the analogy that your T gave you re: trying to imagine you grew up in the Sudan and I'm holding a steak. Since my T doesn't know what it feels like to be emotionally starving. And TN, I told him what your T said, that most T's would be loathe to talk about their feelings in therapy but that your T doesn't have a problem with it and tells you how he feels about you. I think my T has to think about all this stuff. It's all just entering into his consciousness for the first time so I have to give him time to digest it all.

Thanks guys,

xoxo

Liese

(((Liese)))

I resigned myself to the fact ages ago that I am one of those people that most simply are not going to click with. I'm introverted, have esoteric interests, and am by choice oblivious when it comes to much of pop culture. I drift through life trying to be somewhat friendly to those I encounter, and a few people inevitably stick, whereas most don't. Sometimes people I'd *like* to be friends with just aren't interested in me.

All that to say, I think I can understand how your T's comment kicked up some anger in you, because it would likely have had the same effect on me. Like, "Oh, how nice it must be for you to have been born with a silver spoon in your mouth." I dunno. I'd also have a hard time believing that what he said was even true, but maybe that's part of what happens in therapy-- we bump up against the fact that our experiences and perspectives are not the only possibilities of existence? I also think that what AG said made a lot of sense, to the effect that a more secure person has a more impermeable skin and that life simply doesn't hurt as much. It's sad, though.

I love what Ag said.

I think too Liese is that by T saying what he said - he sounds a bit up himself... but beside that him saying that might make you feel that he doesn't have a shared understanding of another issue with you and doesn't have empathy. How can he possibly know what you go thru when he has absolutely no concept of it.

That probably struck a nerve for you. He showed arrogance I thought - well that is what it felt to a mentally injured person like me - to the world he might have come across as self-assured, competent and socially charming.

You know the drill - talk it over with him!!!! If it is something that you write about here with us, it usually means it is important and therefore needs to be discussed in session. Hate that.

quote:

You know the drill - talk it over with him!!!! If it is something that you write about here with us, it usually means it is important and therefore needs to be discussed in session. Hate that.

brilliant, SD- I never thought of it like that for some reason, but yes- if we write about it here, we should talk about it in session! Thank you for that. I'm gonna try it next time.

I think it's overall, probably a good thing that your T is getting to those anger feelings about this, Liese- that's what we are there for, to uncover all of this stuff that you had to put away so long ago. Keep at it. I know how it feels to have that kind of anger just kind of come out of nowhere. I had an experience like that this week too, some guy I know from church refused to give a friend of mine a ride when I was sick, and then sent me an apology email, excusing himself, and also notifying me that he would not be able to do it later in the week, either- I have no idea how I am supposed to respond to this fellow, but I'm very, very angry. Weird. I understand busyness, and the need to say no, but...he driving somebody else who lives right near her!

ok, sorry to make this about mys tuff, I didn't mean to do that. I guess I'm just trying to state that there must be something esle to these feelings, needs to be explored.

Hugs, love,

Beebs

((((HIC)))) I sound a lot like the way you describe yourself. And I have a hard time believing T also. It's kind of like what I told my kids when I was teaching them how to ski and they would brag to each other about not falling down. I would tell them, if you haven't fallen down, then you are playing it safe and haven't taken any risks.

(((SOMEDAYS)))) I felt the same way, that my T is a bit up on himself. I really like him. He's very likeable. But since I've been with him, every once in a while, I pick up on an undercurrent of how wonderful he thinks he is. Since I really do like him too, I can even see why he might feel the way about himself that he feels. But, I've been hurt so many times - I wanted to say by people like him - but I've also been hurt by people who DON"T really feel good about themselves and kick me around out of anger. So, maybe that's not as true as I think it is. Maybe it's really the opposite. HMMMMM.

My big fear is not that he doesn't have the ability to empathize. It's not like a T has personally experienced every problem that comes in front of them. I'm sure he's never had a miscarriage. But he would have to empathize with someone who has had one. My big fear is that he is the type of person (or maybe I'm just assuming here) that has caused my hurt in the past. Like, let's say I'm a battered woman and he's a man who batters. kwim? I'm the borderline and he's the narcissist, in this case. They say they make a good pair! It's usually the type I fall for.

(((BB))) Never worry about talking about your own expierences. I learn so much from everyone, especially when people share their own experiences. And you are right about that anger just coming out of nowhere. That's exactly what happened. One minute I'm trying to find out one thing and the next, I was flooded with this absolutely out of control anger. I'm sorry your friend won't drive your other friend to church for you. It does sound inconsiderate. I don't know about you, but I'm the type of person who is always running around trying to make other people happy, so it always bothers me when someone draws a boundary that seems unnecessary and insensitive. Sometimes it's hard to understand why someone is drawing a particular boundary and not take it personally, especially when it places a burden on us that could have been avoided.

Yes, BB, I agree that it's good this got uncovered because I think it is a huge problem for me that I've been carrying around a long time, perceptions formed in childhood that may or may not be accurate but either way have been interfering with my life.

I keep asking myself, what if I was blind? Would I be angry at all the seeing people and ruin my life because of what I don't have?

Big hugs to all,


xoxo

Liese

And one more thing, could it be also that there are people out there like T who just have and always have had a good sense of who they are and who they will get along with and don't even think about all the people they would never get along with? And that that's exactly where a good sense of self will come in handy? Could it be as simple as that?

Liese, sometimes I think my T doesn't totally understand me. And yet, what makes all the difference in the world is that I always feel that whether she does or not, she is making a 100% effort to TRY to understand. Do you feel the same is true about your T or do you think he sometimes isn't trying hard enough?

Alpaca, that's a really good question and a hard one to answer because there was a time when I don't think he tried hard enough. I was in a lot of unnecessary therapy pain for about 7 months and stopped functioning. It had to do with T and I being in an enactment. He was totally unaware of his part in it until the pain got so bad that I almost did some self-harm and I've never done SH. I also went on a consult and the consult said that he just didn't have the sensitivity he needed to work with me. I was honest with him about the consult (and the other 6 I went on) and the almost SH. Over a period of several months, he did some serious self-examination. He's been really honest about what happened, even up to the point of admitting that he didn't know how to work with transference.

He has corrected the problem now and is trying really really hard to gain my trust. I know he feels really bad about what happened. But I have to ask myself, why didn't he question himself sooner? The therapy relationship is co-created and he is the one with the expertise. I was spinning like a top.

In his defense, he is a human being who got stuck in his own head and in his own way of thinking and wasn't being as flexible as he needed to be to give me what I needed. All things he has owned up to.

xoxo

Liese

Liese, I didn't read this before replying to your other post.

But now seriously wondering-do you think its best for you to have a therapist you continually want to change? It's like you have an idealized image of how you want him to be, and maybe you are trying to turn him into someone he is not? Though trust is, in part, surrendering the need for that kind of control..

I get the anger feelings..rage is often a feeling of injustice, and it helps to discharge a bit. Or is it anger, which is a more direct feeling of loss in connection with a vip, such as your therapist?

I don't think a therapist has to have a matching experience as a patient's, not at all. I think a therapists experience with different patients, over time, provides more benefit than direct experience-which can also cause harm (potentially).

Though with non-therapists, yes, I think people who never experienced what your going through can be clueless..but I don't expect them to be generally attuned or in touch with their emotions as I would expect a therapist to be.