Hey all, I have another question. Has anyone ever experienced erotic AND maternal transference for the same person, at the same time? The two have always been merged for me, but before I give you guys WAY more information on the subject than you probably want, I'd like to know if there is anyone else out there who has had a similar type of transference "merger."

-CT

P.S.- I know this is a pretty heavy topic that churns up a large sense of.... EEEWWWWWW (at least for me), so please don't feel compelled to reply. If it were up to me, I wouldn't entertain sexual and maternal feelings in the same thought, much less in the context of tranference, but apparently it isn't up to me!

Im no expert on this topic but I wouldn't think that two or more transference reactions would occur at the exact same time.

In my opinion people can often feel ashamed of erotic transference and therefore could look for a reason why they are experiencing these reactions.

Maternal transference however is different and even though it could cause shame or other confusing emotions it is a more acceptable transference reaction.

If your worried about this it would probably be a good idea to discuss your feelings with your therapist.

CT,
I have experienced both maternal and homo-erotic transference for my T and I am a happily married and content heterosexual. I can happily report that it does not feel so EEEEWWWW! to me anymore as I understand its complexity and meaning much more than I used to. There was a time I felt so replusive and disgusting and feared my T would feel the same way about me for having these feelings espcecially mixed feelings for her. But she has been very understanding and helpful in my coming to terms with whatever it is I am feeling for her at the time. (I have posted on my discomfort with this subject several times)

I know it can be confusing to have one or the other type transference alone, but I understand the confusion in experiencing a merger of the two that just do not seem to belong together. I guess to put it simply, it does not have any reprehensible significance as you may fear.

I have much I can share about this and will be glad to do so at a later time when I can get back to it, but for now I can say that both transference types are a desire and longing for closeness and to feel special and loved. What my T has helped me to understand is that these feelings have a much more complex meaning to each individual experiencing them. There is not generic code to apply to every case, but essentially with the erotic transference it is a desire for equality in a relationship. To be needed and loved as much as you need and love your transference object. A sexual relationship is also where the least amount of boundaries exist and so it is a struggle for closeness and personal access that we can't have, but long for and desire with our T. But the main struggle is to be equal and to have balance in what we experience as an unbalanced relation with our T who does not need us at all. It is much more innocent than it appears.

As for maternal transference that is much more obvious the longing and desire for a mother/attachment figure; to be loved, nurtured, taken care of, cuddled, held, adored, and cherished by her. Both transference types are acceptable and important to discuss with our Ts as they will reveal our inner most needs.

I can honestly say that despite the intense homoerotic transference feelings I still get on occaision, I DO NOT want to have sex with my T. This is not something I could ever truly act on anymore than I could literally climb on her lap as an adult when I am feeling the maternal transference for her. This is where the realization and safety of our T's boundaries can become such a security for us. I DID go through a phase and I confessed this to my T not long ago, that if she had been inclined to breech my trust in that area that I would have succumb to it very easily even though I know this is not what I would really want. I told her I am happy that I could trust her so much and she reassured me that I can alsways trust her not to betray my trust and she will always guard my vulnerability very carefully.

There is so much more I could share, but I need to leave shortly. If you have anymore questions please feel free to ask. This is one subject I can say I understand quite well and that I accept and understand much better than I used to and I would like to help anyone who is "suffering" from the conflict of having these feelings.
JM

Thank you JM for writing all of that out. Since transference came up again in my session last week (I brought it up)and I expect it will again, this has given me a lot of food for thought.

TN

quote:

I could literally climb on her lap as an adult when I am feeling the maternal transference for her.

HAHA! it suks bein in an adult body i would do this, bu i does hold her hand. and her pets me hair even. duno if her is alowed to, but her say its ok cuz i'm just 14

samy

I think having maternal/paternal AND erotic/homo-erotic feelings for a parent or therapist makes perfect sense if you think about it from the perspective of an infant or very young child. I mean, doesn't an infant/young child have an innate awareness of the most basic, elemental kind of physical connection there is between them and their parent, or between any human beings for that matter? There's obviously nothing erotic about it at that age, but I think that longing for that most basic, elemental connection is there from the very beginning. And let's face it, what's more elemental/evolutionary than that connection?

Then maybe as we grow into sexual beings that connection gets loaded with the erotic stuff. In any case, I don't think such a "merger" would be abnormal or uncommon at all. I think it would be fairly human actually.

As my T has said, all humans are polysexual, despite their conscious sexual preference or gender. I believe this. Some like men, some like women, some like both, some like couch cushions, some like fruits and vegetables. Whatever, it's all in there in my opinion. Who cares. But we are tormented by the ridiculous standards about sexuality that our culture imposes on us.

Just my two cents.
Russ

Couch cushions, huh? I will never look at my T's couch the same way again!!!!

Seriously though Russ, thanks for the words of wisdom and for helping take some of the creepy-ewwwwwness out of the whole situation. My T thinks that, because my mom used me to comfort her and only initiated physical touch with me when it felt good to her, that I got some wires crossed in regards to being nurtured/experiencing physical touch.

Samy, I wish I didn't have this adult body sometimes too! I want to feel small and childlike and have her hold me, but I'm taller and bigger than my T so it would be VERY awkward in reality!

JM- I am also a happily married heterosexual woman with a female T. We discuss the subject and my feelings openly, and she is very gentle, responsible and nonjudgemental about the whole thing. I guess it's just a little difficult because my first sexual experience was with a woman (clearly, my sexuality was not clear to me at that point) who I was experiencing maternal/erotic transference with... my T knows all about it, but it makes things very... messy and confusing... very hard to sort out. I know it all comes from the fact that my emotional/physical intimacy needs were never met with me in mind. If my needs were met, it was either by accident or as a byproduct of my mom trying to meet her needs. I would take care of my mother and comfort her as a way of me getting to feel special and close to her.

I'm in a pretty good place with all of it now, working slowly but surely with my T, but it all feels very big and heavy. I don't feel shame about my feelings, they are what they are, but I just wish I could work through them all more quickly and efficiently. Is therapy EVER quick and efficient? I guess if these things could be sorted out quickly and efficiently, we probably wouldn't need to see a therapist...

Anyway, thanks for the input everyone. I'm really liking this place.

CT,

Also, my guess is that a lot of this stuff operates below our level of consciousness. Is it something you would consciously choose to do? If not and it's happening anyway, than it's an unconscious operation and should be honored as something real and is in existence for a good reason.

Sounds like you're doing just that, so good for you. Without going into detail, I am in a very similar place with this stuff. It's really really hard to come to terms with.

Russ

quote:

I know it all comes from the fact that my emotional/physical intimacy needs were never met with me in mind.

CT

This is something that I am finally starting to realize. It just never dawned on me before that I am so afraid to let others comfort me because I didn't get that nurturing as a child. I also have no idea of how to ask for this from others, even my husband. I am realizing that this is a complicated problem for me. I am adopted and was not given to my parents until I was 10 weeks old. I have no idea of where I was and who took care of me. I am guessing that I did not have the type of nurturing that I gave my own children from the moment of birth. My adoptive mom was a very wonderful woman, but touch was not comfortable for her. I do not have any memories of sitting on her lap, snuggling, or just being comforted. Therefore, I deeply yearn for this from my T. I go in and out of thinking about whether it is erotic or maternal, but I have come to the conclusion that with her it is maternal.

Strangely enough though, I have had an on going email relationship with a T who does not live in my town. I have never met her in person, but I do know what she looks like (picture on her web site) and she has been a huge help to me. At one point, I had transference for her and my T at the same time. I really believe that my transference for her was erotic. Because I felt safe in telling her this (through the computer ), I was able to get her response and not die of embarrassment. She explained that it was probably more of a yearning to be comforted, understood and utterly satisfied because I didn't get that as a child. It took me awhile to think this out, but then it made sense to me. I no longer have those feelings for her, although we still keep in touch and I still think very highly of her.

I also would love to climb up on my T's lap and just let her hold me. What a site that would be! She is a very petite woman and only about 4 yrs. older than me. Sheesh! I hate how this therapy thing makes me feel so young and immature! I guess that is what is supposed to happen, but it sure is disturbing to me.

PL

quote:

Originally posted by the dude:

i would do this, bu i does hold her hand. and her pets me hair even. duno if her is alowed to, but her say its ok cuz i'm just 14

samy

That is really nice your T does that for you. I think it you have a very nice and caring T Samy.

quote:

know it all comes from the fact that my emotional/physical intimacy needs were never met with me in mind. If my needs were met, it was either by accident or as a byproduct of my mom trying to meet her needs. I would take care of my mother and comfort her as a way of me getting to feel special and close to her.

Pretty much ditto for me too CT. I had never quite thought of that spin on it before that it would possibly be due to the fact that I was the caretaker and our roles were so skewed that it skews my experience with other female authority figures. But it makes sense. As does the fact that in my case anyway, CSA also skewed my sense of love and acceptance with acts of sex. However these connections are made it is certainly understandable that we get triggered in this extremely intimate relationship we have with our T. But I really don't think there is a generic branding for any of it.

But the idea that we feel this way and have a trusting relationship to work through these feelings is a good and acceptable thing and we should not feel ashamed, though I so get why we do. I'm not totally over that part of it, but I am much more accepting than I used to be and I try to notice what sort of things trigger these responses in me. Quite often I have noticed that it is amidst an extra difficult situation I am processing that I tend to seek a closer proximaty to my T. As if that signifies complete safety and acceptance to me somehow.

To add to what Russ already pointed out, when we are infants we are completely reliant on our mothers (typically) to provide for all our needs, physically, emotionally, and mentally. And with that connection we learn to experience (supposedly) joy, acceptance, excitement, arousal, and contentment, etc. When these are not received we continually seek them throughout our lives whether positively or negatively, and in more adult like settings. As our Ts step into play they take on an emormously significant role in this during our adult life when it is so much more fertile for erotic transference to occur.

I hope this makes more sense than I am feeling as I type this. I am sorry if it doesn't because I am in a bit of a fog again today.

JM,

For someone in a fog, you seem pretty clear and lucid to me.

So I'm still figuring all this out, but my T feels that just such a "fantasy" is at the core of my problems. He feels that I unconsciously created a fantasy to be physically close to my dad because he was never, ever available for that in real life with me. So what happened was that I wanted the kind of closeness that I saw him have with my mom and I kind of created this idea of me having the same thing with him that my mom did. It's not necessarily a sexual longing, but a physical one.

The problem is that this unconscious fantasy completely conflicts with the intense anger that I also have for him, and this generates an incredible amount of anxiety. Does this make sense?

This is a pretty new development, so I'm not sure what we'll do about it. But it is scaring the living crap out of me.

CT, you're far from alone. Yeah, it's freaky and disgusting on one level, but you have to get around that to see that it's actually totally human and, ultimately, incredibly sad because it's all just a cry for closeness.

Russ

quote:

So what happened was that I wanted the kind of closeness that I saw him have with my mom and I kind of created this idea of me having the same thing with him that my mom did. It's not necessarily a sexual longing, but a physical one.

The problem is that this unconscious fantasy completely conflicts with the intense anger that I also have for him, and this generates an incredible amount of anxiety. Does this make sense?

Russ, this makes absolutely perfect sense to me. It's the classic running to/running away syndrome seen in people with unsecure attachments from childhood. You have this need to seek closeness from your Dad but he would not accept you and seemed to push you away or didn't know how to provide it and so you learned that approaching him with this need was painful and/or dangerous and so you learned to run away from him which then led to anger because you did not get what you needed from your caregiver/parent. And because you could not express your anger it turned into anxiety. When studied most people with anxiety turn out to have unsecure or disorganized attachments to primary caregivers.

I know this scenario played out with my own parents. In my case I couldn't approach my mom with any needs because she either had no time or would freak out emotionally and react out of proportion to what the need was and so I was frightened of approaching her and learned not to do it. So I would end up having to bury my needs and emotions and try to handle it all on my own. I learned this was safer to do and that moving towards her was not a good idea. This conflict turned into anxiety disorder for me with low level depression.

I do this now with my T. I seek closeness with him but watch him with a very wary eye for any, tiny sign that he is rejecting or defensive or would get too overwhelmed by my needs. I am always ready to run from him. I would tell him that I had "one foot out the door" just in case. I am learning from him that it is okay to make my needs known to him and that it won't cause him to react as my mom did. That he is "safe". The learning curve is huge but at least we are working on it.

And I hope this makes some sense.

TN

quote:

When studied most people with anxiety turn out to have unsecure or disorganized attachments to primary caregivers.

TN,

Boy, that fits me like a glove. Thanks a million times for your post. I think you are dead on.

And talking about dad pushing me away or just not being interested, I was looking at two old photos of me and him. In the photos, I'm smiling and obviously glad to be near him, and his expression is one you might see on someone who had just had several root canals done. In fact, I think there's ONE photo in which the man has a smile on his face in all the photo albums I've looked at.

Anyway, thanks so much again for your feedback and information. I didn't know that studies existed of people with anxiety disorders and their issues with attachment.

Russ

Russ- Yeah, I think most of this stuff does lie in our unconscious, and I can certainly see why you are anxious. To hold such extreme feelings about the same person is very painful and confusing. But because of the link that exists between the two feelings (and TN wonderfully described), I think it is important that you validate the importance and significance of each. As for the pics with your dad, I certainly resonate with your feelings. It is hard to look back and see how things were, yet somehow reassuring that your feelings are accurate. I recently went through a box of pics from when I was little, and there is this one that is so illustrative of the way my mother was NOT attuned to my needs. I'm a few months old and am clearly screming my head off (face is all read, mouth is open, arms are flailing) and my mom is holding me and just cheesin' it up for the camera, like I'm not even there. She was in her own world!

PL-

quote:

She explained that it was probably more of a yearning to be comforted, understood and utterly satisfied because I didn't get that as a child.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I am glad that she was able to explain that to you via email where you felt safe and free to express yourself. My T doesn't even do email so I'm stuck bringing these things up in our sessions... sometimes from underneath a pillow- not even kidding!

JM-

quote:

when we are infants we are completely reliant on our mothers (typically) to provide for all our needs, physically, emotionally, and mentally. And with that connection we learn to experience (supposedly) joy, acceptance, excitement, arousal, and contentment, etc. When these are not received we continually seek them throughout our lives whether positively or negatively, and in more adult like settings.

Ain't that the truth!

I fell _in love_ with teacher after teacher after teacher throughout junior high and high school. All of them were women and I was attracted to them maternally and sexually! I gradually became more and more obsessive with each one, until I finally had a sexual relationship with one of them. We had a very... unique relationship, and I can say that I learned SSSOOOOOOO much from it, but as with all transference experiences that culiminate in a physical relationship, it couldn't and wouldn't work. And neither of us really wanted it to. My T now is helping me sort it all out, but I was surprised that my experience with that one teacher didn't change the fact that I have sexual and maternal feelings for my T. It is definitely engrained! It has helped thoguh, because this time around I am a little more willing with her to accept that I don't really want the physical (sexual) things to happen. It's kinda like "Oh, yeah...I tried that and it didn't work!"