Hi everybody...I'm on and off the forum a lot lately, I guess I'm making an honest effort not to post so much since it seems to bug my husband, and also, because I can see that I myself was really was spending way too much time on the computer. So I feel bad because I havn't had a lot of time to respond to you all, and now, here I am just getting my thoughts out there again. I am going to try and respond to the latest posts on here when I can, but you all know how hard it is to respond to everybody you would like to, and I really was driving myself, trying to do that. I hope you can understand.

...I have a really hard time processing sessions with my T, and I can't seem to get the relationship into proper perspective. He is literally on my mind 24/7. What would he think of this, what would he say about this, would he approve of this...if only I could see his face And I only talk to him once a month on the computer, so you can see it is kind of ridiculous. I keep thinking my feelings will fade with these long breaks in between, and that then I'll be able to do some real therapy instead of this constant longing for his presence in my life...but it just never happens. It fades a bit from time to time, then reappears full force when I let myself be sad about it. I have almost quit several times because of this, once I actually told him that I was quitting and did so, and then ended up going back for sessions thinking I had it all under control. I really can't even tell anymore if quitting with my virtual T is maybe the right thing to do for me, or not, it is so confused in my mind that I have no way to untangle it and discern it, so I'm just plodding on with my monthly sessions, all the while deep down hoping, believing, that my T can and wants to help me with *whatever* my problem is. I also know that at some popint my husband and I need to see him for marriage counseling, but I cannot bring myself to talk about stuff with my husband, lots of times.

In the meantime, at my T's suggestion I asked for spiritual direction from a priest whose parish we now attend. So it's gets confusing, because...this priest is helping me sort out so much stuff, and he is unqualitatively *on my side* seems to understand exactly what the nature of my problem is. Every time I go to him, I think, this is it, this is the time he will start to be mean and misunderstand me and push me away...now he will know what a creep I really am....but it never happens. He is candid, thorough, generous with his time, won't take money, analytical, yet essentially ends up doing feelings- type therapy, whatever that is, with me although he is not a psychologist, is friendly, and *always* puts his finger right on the problem and helps me sort it. In short, he really is perfect. So I'm scared there might be scary attachment over-dependency developing there, too, and I really can't deal with these intense feelings that take over my life whenever someone is kind to me.
I met with him again yesterday, and we went over some weird stuff I experience all the time. He calls them "the voices in your head that tell you..." such and such. He argues with these voices for me. He is my advocate against them, and it is a relief because he is so much smarter than I am and can figure it all out a lot better than I can. (I do not hear real voices, but that is just a description of what happens inside of me)

So yesterday I got up my nerve to tell him, that I always feel like I am making it all up (that I am depressed, have real problems, whatever) in order to avoid painful realization/resposibility for my *sins.* If I am depressed it is not my fault...that I fail in such ways. He says, that again is the voices in my head that are using a very clever argument against myself, to make me feel bad about getting the help I need, to disbelieve that I deserve mercy, to make me feel bad on every possible level. I want to believe him, but the thing is, because I want to believe him it is just further confirmation that I really am just using it all as an excuse, blah, blah, blah, or even just to get attention- and that in fact I've probably carefully manipulated this dear, innocent person into thinking just what he now thinks in order to feel better about myself, at his expense and the expense of the truth which is that I am bad, undeserving of his care, etc, etc, etc, etc...can anyone see that this is a complete trap, with no way out? My SD says a catch 22 like this is *always* the evil one's lie (yikes!) and I am not to listen anylonger to those thoughts that put me in a very hopeless and helpless place of being *just bad no matter what* He says that is not the real me.

I want so much to believe him, but I find it so hard to let go of this powerful despair that he says probably controls me in ways that I don't even notice anymore. Honestly, giving it up- it feels like falling backwards into this persons arms, and just trust that what they say is true whether it rationally makes sense or not. sigh. It is literally, *just because he says so*, that I believe his interpretation of my setup.. On no initiative of my own can I believe it, at least I don't think so. So, what if he is wrong? I've come to the point where I am not able to feel any of the anxiety about these kind of scary thoughts that I used to, and that further complicates things for some reason- I guess because now, I also *don't care* am completely unmotivated to even change, and etc, and etc. Does anyone else have experience with just trusting against your own "better judgement" that you don't have the most evil, basest motives for every single thing you do, just because someone really caring and wise told you that- and pointed out some arguments in your favour that could just as easily be turned around the other way? He really seems to care about me on a spiritual level, and to think that I am good- and it feels very good to trust that maybe, I might not be *so bad.* But it also feels deeply *wrong* to trust what he says, that I am good. Like that in itself is *bad.* Arg, what a trap!

I have no idea if anything I've written here even makes sense.

I also asked my SD why I should feel so bad deep down inside all the time, when my life is filled with so many blessings, and he says I have to take a very long time to find the answer to that question out, because he does not think God will show me all at once the answer so as not to crush me. Those are very tender but mysterious words. I am somewhat confused about what this can mean. I know he thinks it's good that I'm in therapy, which is a big relief to me, because that is something I always question...even, I think that it is evil of me to be in therapy. Good grief.

In the meantime, I have no idea if my T and I even have a session booked, he never finally confirmed with me, and I just don't wnat to ask, I know I should for peace of mind, but, oh, ugh, it's so hard to send him emails, and I already asked for something else from him this week.

Well, I just desperately needed to get some of my thoughts from my SD session out, thank you for indulging me, if you are still reading- and any thoughts would of course be welcome if you have the time.

BB

i want to be respectful to all, but i felt damned from the get-go. damned. and i tried to hide from God, and just this fall i have fully embraced, as in this song on Christian stations..."child, you're forgiven and loved"....and i have sung that particular few lines in my head thousands of times.

and friend, YOU are forgiven and loved.

not something many of us ever got growing up, but i pray you can embrace that.

truly, some of my best therapy comes through lines in these Christian songs. Amy Grant has an amazing new album, and the words are so, so good...i feel renewed spiritually listening to her. and i listen to lynda randall, a black earthy-voiced gospel singer.

i don't know, just saw the Christian tie, and i know that faith has been the strongest force pulling me out of the deepest darkest dungeon of quick sand i have ever been in.

and prayer...aloud, fervant, listening...'draw near to the Lord and He will draw near to you'...and then i listen, in a comatose trance, i pray, i cry, and i know God listens. He doesn't always speak, but He is my hope, and really, my best therapist...but i can't always get Him to talk, and i prayerfully have accepted that therapy is a source for healing he supports for me, i feel like i am cheating sometimes, but He does put us in community with others to interact and help one another.

my prayers, blackbird...sweet friend. my prayers for everyone on this board. 'child, you're forgiven and LOVED'...((()))

Dearest BB,
From the very start of your posting on these boards , i have sat with tears as i have read all of your posts.you just break my heart,because in me ,is you and your pain touches my soul deeply.
Firstly, we all know how hard it is to respond to everyone's posts.I think all of us have felt some pangs of guilt for not responding to peoples posts before now ...but as posters, as you know yourself, you know that everyone is reading and has sympathy and empathy,even if they dont write,you know that people care about what you have written.There is no need sometimes to get replies.So dont beat yourself up and little BB we know that you are a very generous person with your support of us all and that at the moment you are going through your own stuff........i like to imagine you when you are away nesting!!! filling your little nest with lovely fluffy feathers that cradle you with love and warmth that you so deserve, but find it so hard to accept for yourself.
My T is on my mind 24/7 too.You know how i have wanted to quit and run and how hard it is not to do that.It would be soooooo easy to do it,but i feel that i will regret it in the long run.I also know that if I dont experience this longing with this T and work my way through it , i will be doing it for the of my life with other people, and hell, i dont want to be doing that! At least i am doing it with someone who is safe and can help me this time.So I too will keep plodding on through the pain and complete madness of it. just know that we are all plodding along with you and when you get pissed off or tired ,we'll all happily carry you for a while.
I am so pleased that you have your lovely SD to look after you .He sounds just so wonderful for you.I guess I too would be scared to develop an attachment and co-dependency on someone like him.....but maybe you need too to heal.Maybe you need to let yourself lean on someone for a while to find out who you really are and what you really want.also maybe you need to listen to someone saying who they think you are for a while, maybe you will start believing what a very precious , lovely person that you are!.maybe by denying your self these feelings and getting close to this lovely man and believing what he is saying to you,little BB is actually scared to find out about herself and what she needs?Even the truth about what shes lost or never had that could be so painful to her? I cant help but feel as I have read your posts and now this one,(unless i have got the wrong end of the stick!) that whilst its painful to be close to an invisible,but real ,cyber presence, its easy isnt it in a way.......but its gonna be a whole different kettle of fish getting close to someone who cares who is there in flesh and blood before you...and out of the two, I think I know which one is going to do the most healing...but thats just my opinion.
My hope for you is that one day you can see how lovely you are,how 'good' you are and that you are very deserving of every ounce of love and support that you get.
lastly,please email and get your session sorted out with your T...its ok to ask for 2 things in a week BB! and the time of your next session is kinda important .thats not a want ,thats a necessity!

huge hugs(((((((((((BB)))))))))))))))

dragonfly

another favorite...may the PEACE of God, WHICH SURPASSES ALL UNDERSTANDING, guard YOUR HEART and MIND through Christ Jesus.

i run them over and over in my mind when i get shaky. another image, when it is really rocky, pretend you are in a safe boat, with God, and the seas are really rocky...just DON'T look over the side...you ARE SAFE.

i wish i could really hold and hug you. don't look over the side of the boat at the rough waters, just focus in the boat and with God, and ask Him for HIS peace, which surpasses ALL understand to surround YOUR heart AND mind through Christ Jesus.

prayers, sweetie!! jill

oooooh, thank you guys, each of you, so much for such lovely helpful responses. I almost deleted the thread last night after I wrote it...I was totally convinced that anyone who read this would be completely disgusted with me. Finally I will be kicked off the board... and every time I post something I have to say, I am overwhelmed, that it doesn't happen, in fact the opposite happens...I will respond on here later this week...

Love,

BB

ok, today I have offically and completely fallen off the "less computer use" wagon I have created for myself. Nobody tell my husband, ok...? But I told my SD about how I get in these modds where I will just sit on the computer all day, and you know what he said? He said "oh, that is outside the relam of moral responsibility- if you wanted to do that, you would be kind of happy about it, that you got away with something. But I can see you are sad about it. this is just a symptom of a deeper problem. So until you spend some more time in therapy and your psychologist has some success with you, EXPECT to be spending many more days on the computer." Weird. I feel like he's giving me permission to just give up, give in. Yet, oddly, since that session, I did more stuff with my kids than I usually do. It just feel s good to have permission to be imperfect...and from someone whose good opinion really matters a lot to me.

I want to take some time and respond to you guys...Jill I appreciate your friendliness and your prayers...I often find that prayer (real prayer as opposed to just words that I kind of make my mouth say) is impossible...but I have made a little bit of progress in this area lately. At least I don't feel the guilt about not being able to pray with sincerity that I used to. My SD says, I can't pray so just let my desire to be able to pray be my prayer. hmm..

DF- oh my little friend, you are so sweet and I thank you for your post.

quote:

I cant help but feel as I have read your posts and now this one,(unless i have got the wrong end of the stick!) that whilst its painful to be close to an invisible,but real ,cyber presence, its easy isnt it in a way.......but its gonna be a whole different kettle of fish getting close to someone who cares who is there in flesh and blood before you...and out of the two, I think I know which one is going to do the most healing...but thats just my opinion.

You know, it is funny that when I fist signed up for "phone counseling" something in me said, this might not be the best idea, BB. Easier than talking in person, yes, but... however, I do think my T has got me to the point where I could ask for the spiritual direction I'm in now that has helped so much. He really is scary to talk to, and I think it gave me practice. Maybe in some odd way it was what I needed to get me to the point where I could maybe, get into "real" therapy with a "real" person. Not my T isn't real, he is very real...but he's not in the flesh here for me as you say, which always hurts, like the past...my father was never there either, even though he *was* there physically. So, Monte, I get what you are saying too, and I think it's pretty astute. Am I punishing myslef with more of the same from the past...parents who were in no way really there for me and in fact did what they could to hinder my growth? But my T doesn't do that. (hinder growth) He just isn't there. He just seems to have no interest/time in maintaining a connection with me, but is quite happy (seemingly) to let me flounder around without him, especially between session. Boy, does that feel familiar. As a person who never had any real parental support or help, it also really is painful to endure. The sense of just being left for dead.


Monte: I have ALOT to say about your post...forgive it's length.... in the next bit I use the word "love" just because there is no other word to describe what the "feelings" between therapist and client are. Love is the closest approximation of what is experienced/hoped for, at least for me.

quote:

The ‘neglect’ you experience with your T, the sense of only being worth unreliable ‘crumbs’ (my observation, which may be way off the mark) seems to have hooked you powerfully and have you going back for more, while you resist the wonderful reality of the the attunement and loving care you receive from your SD. Is that because accepting neglect and disconnection feels 'right' and normal while regular, reliable REAL care, interest and affirmation is so totally foreign, it is hard to accept as real and therefore too frightening to embrace?

It really does feel like unreliable crumbs, Monte. And my T is continually telling me I need to ask for what I need, and when I have become aware of needs and then found the courage to ask, he has very often put me off in fulfilling those needs. Even the legit ones, for example I sent him a request for information with some questions in it, kind of like an interview really, adn he promised to complete the questions for me, even said he couldn't charge me for it, that he was impressed that I could think of all that...but, he just never could find the time for me on that one, though I even reminded him once.. He's just too busy for me. Even though I pay him. It sucks. This really bites. It's brutal. It's like saying "here, kitty kitty, I have some nice warm milk for you" to a lonely hungry kitten, and then when the kitten gradually approaches, you just walk away. This is the part of therapy that really, really hurts. that I am not an important enough client to my T. that my requests for help or information may or may not be met. That Even when I am paying him for his time to respond to my requests, I do not get his attention, unless we are on in session. Even then sometimes he's not. He doesn't have time to book an emergency session should I need one. Frankly he just forgets about which one I am or he's too busy, or I am just not on his radar. whatever. It's all too familiar. But like you say, I'm kind of hooked, trying to get what feels legitimate at least, from him...I just feel like I won't rest until I can see that at least I could get the full attention of someone who I paid to attend to my needs for that period of time for pete's sake. He says I am looking for ways to prove he doesn't care. Who knows who is right anymore?

quote:

It is not love. It is not the same as the contemplation I experience for the ‘real’ people in my life, which IS love, because it is about them and their well-being, not me and mine.

This is almost, verbatim, the argument my T uses against the transference. In fact, I often wonder if you and I have the same T. Really. He says I do not care about him, and that is the way it should be, he is here to care about me, and that when I think about him or his needs it is not "being authentic." I would like to make my T happy someway. I know he doesn't need me, so he misunderstands me here. But he doesn't believe that...it's ok, he's probably right. Monte, I have a question for you: Do you think that when we are in a relationship with someone that is over us, an authority figure who we need to guide us, and it is about learning to take...that there is no real love on the part of the "receiver" of care? I find myself in the awkward position of feeling that I truly do care about my T, but not being believed about that. It is impossible that I should care, I get that. But I do care. But of course I care! He is a person... I can see that he has suffered and it touches my heart on a deep level. And that he has managed to show some care for me makes my feelings all that much stronger...it isn't real? I'm not so sure. Learnign to ask for care and learning to receive it (when it is given) is a type of love, I believe. It is humbling. To send my T email after email begging for help was humiliating in the extreme...and he responded to that need and vulnerability (at the time.) He probably has some therpisty reason for not responding to my emails now, even when they are legit...or he just has not time for me...but either way the hurt is real, and the feelings of being cared about were real. Does a child love his mother or father? They have nothing to give...but I would tremble to say that the love of a child for parent "isn't love" or "isn't real." The love I feel for my T is childish...needy...but all the same it is powerful. Sometimes it is so powerful that I feel I would truly die for him. ridiculous, I know, and probably, untrue. But all I am saying, is that receptive love has something very real and powerful in it. My T does not understand this. I don't bring it up anymore. he thinks it's resistance or something, whatever... yeah, maybe he's right...maybe so, but but I think love crosses the boundaries. I do not want my T to cross boundaries for me. But I want him to care, and deeply care within the context of the therapeutic relationship. He has too many clients, and too many other responsibilities to do this for me. I used to think I wanted him as a man to cross boundaries. But I do believe that genuine care just will cross boundaries. Now I realize, no, I can be satisfied with what he can give...but I absolutely need my therapist when I am in this place. Yet that is a need I MAY NOT HAVE. I must wait until I can pay again for his time. And even then he may not have the time available for me, no matter how desperate I may be. Would you stop what you were doing that is very, very important, to help a stranger in need? If they paid you? Which strager is the most important one to help? It is very confusing stuff.

Am I resisting the care from my SD? that is something I would have to think about...
oh, Monte, I hope I haven't overstepped...it's just your post, and DF's and everyones's was so thought provoking, I needed to write out honestly what it brought up. Please, there is nothing I love more than a good dialouge, so if there is anything here you can see is inconsistent or doesn't ring true, or if you just have commetns to make I would love if you would bring it to the table- time permitting! I need to see where my thinking or feelings may be flawed or inauthentic, as my T would say. However I am surprised at him discounting my feelings for him, since he does continually say that a feeling is a feeling and the worst a person can do to another is discount and negate a feeling. He must really think I am lying, and it makes me wonder if I am? Confusion, confusion. (Not from you, just from this whole therapy jumble.) Thank you for the Bible quotes..I will end with one that rings true for me in my situation...

quote:

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Mathew 18:3

I think the kingdom of heaven would begin on earth for me if I could do this...aha, the inner child...if Christ thinks she is this important, than she must be...

BB



BB

we are glad you have fallen off the wagon!!!!is that selfish????????????!!!!!!!! I'm lovin your SD more and more.......i want one of them too as well as a stone..
did you find him in the yellow pages under perfect?

BB, I am glad you have decided to return to your perch! Virtual life is not the same without you.

I love this quote:
[QUOTE can’t pray so just let my desire to be able to pray be my prayer/QUOTE]
It reminds me of the verse “Lord I believe, help my unbelief.” Your SD is spot on! God will not demand of us what we are not able or willing to give. He lets us come as we are (he knows it anyway) and is patient and good. I wander if your SD has read anything by Brennan Manning.

I want to throw my hat in the ring along with Monte and Dragonfly for your SD. It sounds like what he is offering you is what you are hoping to find. Except, as already pointed out, he does not feel as familiar to you as the ‘distant’ relationship you have with the T. I do know that we tend to repeat unresolved issues in past relationships with unconscious hopes of resolving them to a better end with relationships in the present. I am guessing it’s a good thing that you are looking for a connection between you and the relationship with your T and the disappointing one that you had with your parents. Entering that disappointment and feeling the pain it caused in your life is a way to resolve some of the angst. Maybe this T is doing for you exactly what you need. Beyond that, I don’t know if holding on to what is familiar is good for you or if it is better to fly away and start making new connections. I’ll be interested to read what those of you who know more about that sort of thing have to say.

My question for you is: What happens if you can get what you really really want but it does not come from the one you want it from?

deeplyrooted

Warning: massive post again.

I'm feeling bad because it sounds like I'm saying that my T hasn't doen anything for me and that I resent him and his efforts...and my SD is so much better, blah, blah, blah...and it's really not the case. I'm deeply grateful to my T for what he's done so far, and I think he's really good at his job...but I just feel left out, left behind by him...on a practical level...and I'm never sure about my perceptions on that. But I have some more thoughts about transference/attachemtn/love or whatever we are calling it.

Monte:

quote:

I mean...who would dare love their mother/father/other significant adult? It hurts so badly to be rebuffed by these people. I will not dare take the final step and openly love my T, because he won't love me back and that hurts...and that perhaps is the core of the wound and I am avoiding it.

Monte whatever you feel, you can't cahnge it by calling it something different. It is very deeply painful to love without being loved in return...yes that is a very deep pain. But the truth will set you free. And please, this thread isn't about me, it's about us and our stuff, and I always want people to chime in and say whatever they want to about themselves or their journey in my threads...please, just be comfortable to say whatever comes into your mind about yourself- it is how we learn from eachother, too, so it is also good for me. Anyway, yeah, they don't love us back, at least not personally. For sure they care about us as clients, but that is not love...*or is it?* I really feel that I'm satisfied with what my T gives me, when I feel he was putting himself out there for me (as a T) Even though it is strictly within the boundaries, it still feels like love to me, no matter what you want to call it. It makes me feel peaceful, I can think straight, I can pray, (for a little while) I want to be a better person. The problem with this, is that I want to be better to please my T...and I can't change that...and since he doesn't love me back this falls flat. This is the crux of my current problem in T and I'm stuck here. And as you so wisely have said in the past, for me as a Christian, that type of devotion should be reserved for God and the people whose lives I have an impact on. So, it's not love in the sense that it is not sacrificial on either of our parts, not really. I mean, my T doesn't sacrifice for me, let's face it, he gets a hefty paycheck to deal with my problems for an hour and 50 minutes each month. Does it mean he doesn't care? No, but it's not love. And yeah, it really, really bites to feel like you would do ANYTHING on God's earth for someone who does not love you. Old patterns. When I end up in the middle of that pain of loving (or at least, wanting to have permission to love) without being loved in return, it gives me a window into how Christ must have felt (completely vulnerable, with no defenses and thirsty) when he was dying on the cross for MY sins, and it gives me a window into how my kids must feel when I emotionally reject them in some way. My T has said that I need to transfer my feelings for him onto God, my spouse and others more "appropriate." Now does this or does this not constitute negating someone's *feelings* which cannot be helped, which in his own book is the cardinal sin? So, therapy is confusing, painful, and I just hope that I'm doing the right thing by sticking with it so far. Yeah, I get this:

quote:

quote: What I said about no matter how desperate I may be for contact and help, he is not available:
Yet that is a need I MAY NOT HAVE. I must wait until I can pay again for his time. And even then he may not have the time available for me, no matter how desperate I may be.

What you said in response:
This to me is the crux of the matter. It is the final insult, the proverbial salt in the wound. We were not given what was rightfully ours and it wounded us and here we are look for healing and we get more of the same wounding!

My T would say to this..."Yes!! And this is what will connect you to your original wound and enable you to grieve." Ppfft. Smart-arse...easy for him to say. Hate this stuff

What I want to know, because I really have spent the past year in this state of grief, and it is mind-blowing how painful it can be at times...why is this healing? Yes, I have some deeper insight now, into what lack of love for a child does. And I have some insight into how wounded I must have really been as a child, and still am- I was never aware of this before these love feelings for my T developed. Would I go back and change it and not enter therapy? No way...but still, I always thought, it was *love* that healed, not pain and grief. Why can't my T love me? What is so wrong about that? I am not talking about unfaithful love, here...but I can't help wishing my T loved me. I know he can't help not loving me, and if he did, he wouldn't be able to help that either...but I do not think I will ever stop wishing for that again, long after he is gone from my life, and I have accepted all of this, I am certain that longing will still be laying there dormant, sadly inside of me...crazy, yeah. But he is very sweet- I see him, somehow, and I never expected that, it freaks me out a bit. I like him more and more, not less and less...oh I can't be/stay angry with him, even when he hurts badly and that is worst of it. And I constatnly remember his face. I've lost my heart and I don't see it coming back to me anytime soon! He is truly the father I always wished for. Very strange stuff. Maybe, my heart needs to be broken over and over again for some strange reason that I can't see...methinks.

DR- I think Augustine said that?...Thank you for the quote, it is one of my favorites!

quote:

God will not demand of us what we are not able or willing to give. He lets us come as we are (he knows it anyway) and is patient and good. I wander if your SD has read anything by Brennan Manning.

Thank you for this...it is very well put. I will now have to go and google Brennan Manning. My SD is a Jesuit so he's probably read every book that exists.

quote:

I do know that we tend to repeat unresolved issues in past relationships with unconscious hopes of resolving them to a better end with relationships in the present. I am guessing it’s a good thing that you are looking for a connection between you and the relationship with your T and the disappointing one that you had with your parents. Entering that disappointment and feeling the pain it caused in your life is a way to resolve some of the angst.

This is also well put...thanks, DR. Good to learn these things, gradulally incorporate them into understanding...I guess it's what I'm hoping , that all of this isn't in vain, that I will find some healing in the relationship, and resolve or at least understand some past conflict...and grow in love from this...maybe it's a pipe dream. I still havn't managed to figure out what the dynamic in my family really was, and I know I need to ask my T for help in sorting that out...but it's hard, he said once that we could spend forever on that, and it's in current relationship that the healing will be found (with my husbnad.) I felt he was telling me to not talk about the past. So I don't. It would take some serious permissions/ asking from him at this point for me to open up further about the past, when I've become convinced that he doesn't want me to do that. I trust his judgement on stuff like that, and want to follow his directives.

quote:

My question for you is: What happens if you can get what you really really want but it does not come from the one you want it from?

Ah, DR- I thought of that myself, too! and it is what is happening isn't it? I suppose that I keep hoping I will get through my needs somehow to my T, and that he will be able to help me still. I just need to learn how to put them into the right words and then he will have this big aha! moment, and he will start to really understand and help me do exactly what it is I need to do in therapy, whatever that may be...the problem with ditching my T, besides that I'm just too sorry-assed to do it even if I figured out I should at sopme point, is that my SD doesn't do any psychological work. The feeling stuff I was talking about is only dealing with spiritual matters...I can't talk to him about my relationship problems, the past, or stuff like that-psychological stuff- it's just not his area. At least I don't think I can. It could be dangerous to get into stuff like that with someone who doesn't have th expertise? He already brings a lot of himself into it, which is fine by me, but it wouldn't work for the other stuff I don't think. And my t is really insighful and a big help in those areas, I still need a lot of sorting. I think I still need my virtual T. It's just painful, is all. Sorry for whining about it so much everybody. Thanks for listening reading the mammoth posts I put out there.

hugs,

BB

DF, you are naughty, you shouldn't encourage me! Just kidding, I am gald you are glad I have fallen off the no computer wagon. I might get back on again, though. But I miss you guys all when I don't post! I am a postaholic.


BB

BB,

I thought the quote taken from one of your posts (which for some reason cannot find) was your SD.

I get it now (palm of hand hitting forehead). Your T and SD play separate roles and that is why it words so well. The boundaries are clear as far as what topics are discussed. It sounds like you have the best of both worlds. What is unique for you than most is that you only meet with your T once a month and that meeting is not face to face. Either one of those on their own would be difficult for me. So it's great if you can make it work. Please do not feel you need to defend your T or your choice of one. This is the LAST place you should need to do that. We all know that once transference or attachment occurs then good, bad or indifferent, the client is going for a ride.

I like the idea of a spiritual director. I don't know what you meant when you said you had a bad experience of someone in a religious position taking advantage of that position but I have wounds in that area that need to be addressed. It would be good to have a mentor to walk alongside me through that stuff. Besides, a wise man seeks a multitude of counselors. One person cannot meet all of our needs.

quote:

And I have some insight into how wounded I must have really been as a child, and still am- I was never aware of this before these love feelings for my T developed. Would I go back and change it and not enter therapy? No way...but still, I always thought, it was *love* that healed, not pain and grief. Why can't my T love me?

You are working hard to figure things out and find an answer to all your pain. For me, this quote exposes a lot of the struggle. I can't help but think of Jacob in the Old Testament when he wrestled with the angel while reading your posts on this thred. He may have walked away with a limp but he walked away a better man.

Keep pecking at it, BB. You are making progress.

deeplyrooted

Thank you for this response, DR- I just saw it this morning or I would have responded to you sooner.
Yes, I feel very grateful to have not just one, but two people to help me with my issues. At first I felt too incredibly guilty at the thought of "taking" care from more than one person. But now I see how I have been led to this point all along, and how God is providing for me just exactly what I need. I could not have seen this before. My T led me to the point of even being able to ask for spiritual direction, and now, my SD is showing me that it is safe to open up to my T...

I want to write a bit about my session this morning just to process it, it helps so much to do that with such sympathetic friends as all of you. But just now I need to sit on it a bit and just be. I am proud of myself for making plans to take my kids to the beach today- hooray for therapy! I feel stronger today than I have felt in a long time.

How are things going with you, DR? It is interesting your quote about Jacob wrestling with God...you are not the first person who has made that observation to me...so I guess it is something I should look at and try to understand.
DR, I appreciate your wisdom and putting yourself out there for us. Thank you for joining this forum and reaching out yourself. You are a calm and reassuring presence here. I hope we can be that for you, too.

((((DR))))

BB

So, I have been trying to think about my session on Wednesday, and it's kind of weird. I feel like I am in a completely different place with my T. A good place. I suddenly woke up and when I saw my T things just started to gradually click into place. I wasn't too scared, nor was I ambivalent. I realized, oh my gosh- I think I can actually talk to this man, as I so desperately need to-! without hiding. So I did. Mostly. Talk about relief. It wasn't perfect, but I felt heard and accepted, and without my usual pushing it away. He said I have never talked to him, ever, like I did on Wednesday. All his previous "judgement" anger and boredom as I experienced it seems to have gone. this is the third or 4th time he has been like this, and I am starting to really honestly trust that maybe it isn't going away...He just feels like he is, mostly, almost completely, there for me during the session. We talked about A LOT of things. I'm still dealing with a bit of the memory problem, bringing the session back to conscious memory, but I was even able to email him and ask him to jog my memory about the important stuff after.

My T seems to have changed his whole way of seeing me, and I am not sure why? It is confusing. Where he used to be silent, now he will speak, where he used to be cold, now he is warm, where he used to hurt, now he heals...and I am feeling still confused, and I want to ask him, what did happen? Why does it feel all right now, and safe? I am curious. Maybe better to leave it alone?

I am not sure if this is what has shifted things for me, but lately my T also seems to be emphasizing rather forcefully (for him) that this will take "a long time." (Where he used to seem to emphasise that it shouldn't take forever.) Now he keeps reiterating that with my baggage it is ok that I will surely need him "for a long time." I even asked him if it is some kind of reverse psychology to push me out the door faster in the long run, and he said "no, I am not playing games with you." I have no idea why, but there is something in these words that I find comforting and safe. I have been so concerned for so long that I was taking too long and that he was very displeased with me for it. This was really stopping me up! now I feel safe...like it is ok, he won't shove me out the door for getting better. Oh, I think I was scared to try getting better or to talk in case he would push me off. He would say "once you are capable of expressing your needs, you will not have need of me anymore." YIKES!!! Maybe it's really bad, I don't know, but that got me feeling like I'd better not express any needs, or he's done with me- whether I'm where I want to be or not! scary! Terrifying in fact.

So we talked about a lot of stuff, and how helpful it was- hugely! I was really beginning to think therapy was supposed to feel awful, and that if I felt good after a session, it was because my therapist had made a mistake and been too nice to me. But I'm still getting the strong feeling that my T is bored by "my history." It just seems like whenever we start talking about my old family stuff, he starts acting a bit tired and bored, blinking a lot and rubbing his nose...once he even yawned and that clammed me up for along time, sheesh. So I wonder why? Hm. I wonder if it is somehow, pointless to talk about all of that, that it's really not that important in his view...or if my particular brand of pain is also a particularly boring brand of pain. Well, he helps me so much the rest of the time nowadays- I have got to overlook this one thing. I just am scared to be picky, picky, picky, kwim? I know I should ask about it- but I can't. I really think I will not survive if my T doesn't care about me, I am just another client he will forget about- a paycheck- and I have to avoid finding that out or thinking it at all costs or I will die. At least it feels like I will die.

The best thing that I remember, is that for some reason I felt like I had permission to let the conversation go where it would (not from him, but from me) instead of feeling like I had to "get it right"

At the beginning I was feeling really hopeless, like he can't help me what is the point. He reminded me that there have been times when I was doing a lot better, and I said "yeah, but that was just to please you." I actually said it! Out loud! and he just said "and that would be a wrong reason?" I said yeah, because he isn't even a real person in my life. Here comes the good part...he said so nicely and kindly, "Yes I am- I am a *very* important person in your life!" I said you are? and he actually repeated that yes, he is. After that I just felt like I had permission to talk to him about anything. It was cool. Unfortunately, I can't remember the whole thing, but I did manage to remember some phrases that I wrote down and can go back to. I wish I could remember some of the more key points, but sadly, they seem to be gone. Maybe he will email me with that, he actually emailed that he would respond to my request.

Something else is interesting...I feel less panicy about feeling attached...it just doesn't feel quite as overwhelming, it is more like a strong and allowable emotion, if that makes sense. Like I've stopped trying to drive it off, and I feel less ashamed of it. Like I can accept this way I feel, as part of who I am right now and I may as well since there doesn't seem to be too much I can do about it. And I begin to really trust that my T thinks the same way! I really wish he was my dad, because he accepts me and lets me be, and I can talk to him and he doesn't make it all about him- he wants to help me- and I've never had that before not for real- it's as simple as that. And yeah, I love him for it, in my childish way. Yeah, I love my Gandalf...He said he would commit to working with me for a long time.
I have a lot of mixed feeling about this...part of me groans at the money involved and thinks it isn't neccessary, and mostly, I do NOT have the kind of issues that warrant more long-term care and why does he think I do all of a sudden, when before it seemed like he was trying to push me along out of counseling? But my sister just told me that her psychiatrist told her that our background is one of "significant trauma." Very weird, that neither of us seem to be able to see it that way. Nope I just think, maybe a wee bit of trauma here and there, but nothing "significant." Still can't seem to entirely accept or see how that is true.
My T had this moment that cracks me up when I remembered it. He said something about "all your childhood neglect" or whatever, and I just shook my head no. Then he nodded, very vigorously, yes. and I shook my head, no, again. We went back and forth like that for a bit, and then we both just laughed. I think that was funny. But I wonder why he can see it and I can't. I just think about all the good things and feel guilty for thinking "traumatic childhood." Well.

So that's kind of my story at present...feeling safer talking with my virtual T, and don't really even want to call him my virtual T anymore because he is feeling more and more like a real T! My SD is away for awhile now, and somebody asked if I had repaired with him but that is another story for another post...
I am feeling so grateful right now to have the help I need, and thinking of everyone who does not yet, and wishing you every good thing, and hoping, praying you do soon, too, find the person who can help get you where you need to be.

thanks for listening....

BB

BB!!!! I SO loved reading about how your relationship with your T is growing closer and safer and more about your needs. Love it love it LOVE IT!! I love the feedback you got from him, that you've never opened up to him before like you did on Wednesday, which shows that you both are noticing this change, both on the same page...how wonderful BB! And the way you are feeling more comfortable talking about what's really on your mind, and not having to get it "right", losing your fear of the attachment, feeling safer, the reassurances that he isn't going anywhere...it sounds like you and T are "getting in the groove" here and I'm just delighted for you.

Your confusion as to what changed, exactly...I'd be feeling that too. Your wanting to ask is totally understandable...and your hesitancy, also understandable...what if the asking causes it to be taken away again. I really hope at some point you can talk with him about this too, but I totally understand the waiting, kind of holding the breath and just hoping this stays. But if the relationship continues to strengthen like this, you might feel safe enough at some point to venture asking. It sounds like you already have asked in some ways, though, such as asking him about the "reverse psychology"...kind of a joke, maybe, but kind of "not"...and it sounds like his response was very reassuring to you - "comforting and safe" - and now it's okay to have needs and express them, you won't be suddenly shoved out the door. As far as his being "bored" with your old family stuff, forgive me but what do you mean by old family stuff? Do you mean the family you grew up in? No matter, just curious...but again, if things continue going in this direction then you may wind up feeling safe enough to ask him about this, too.

I am sorry that you are still experiencing memory problems regarding the sessions...but I get the sense from what you said, that it has improved over time? I wonder if it will continue to improve, now that the pressure to "get well quick", wherever it was coming from, seems to be off. Forgive me, I can't remember, but have you considered recording your sessions?

And I would like you join you in hoping and praying that very soon everyone on this board would have the T they need who can help them. Thank you for sharing this, Blackbird! It is lovely to read about.

Hugs,
SG

DR:

quote:

I like the idea of a spiritual director. I don't know what you meant when you said you had a bad experience of someone in a religious position taking advantage of that position but I have wounds in that area that need to be addressed. It would be good to have a mentor to walk alongside me through that stuff. Besides, a wise man seeks a multitude of counselors. One person cannot meet all of our needs.

I just wanted to add to what I wrote before, that I was wondering if you had any luck with this yet, DR? It's hard to find the right person to help with this, but I know you will find if you keep on seeking...

BB