I dont know how it will affect you transference with you Therapist but i know that transference can be worked through.

My Therapist will only hug me if i ask her for a hug. She is very gentle and caring, She says that if she hugs me we have to talk about it, which is ok with me.

that makes a lot of sense. Once after sharing some really personal things about myself she offered me a hug and I had body memories. It was so embarrassing. We had to talk about it. Its common with survivors to get them, but I felt like such a weirdo!

I am glad to know that you hug in therapy too. Sometimes I feel that hugging is wrong.

My therapist is so caring and gentle as well.. Glad you have a great therapist!!

I am grateful that my T is ok with hugs because I really appreciate them. She will also hold my hand or pat my arm sometimes when I get really sad. I find it comforting and grounding.

About 6 months ago I finally worked up the courage to ask her to sit on the couch with me and not across the room and I was so pleased that she didn't hesitate to do this or even ask why. I told her how much easier it was to talk to her when I didn't feel like I had to cross so much "space" and she has sat on the couch with me for every session since. The closer proximity has definitely helped me get a lot more stuff out in the open.

TG

Why do you think your T may be abusing you with hugs? Do they go beyond safe touch?

I may be weird but I won't see a T who will not give hugs. I don't know why that is either. I guess I feel it is a basic expression of connectedness particularly in a relationship that can potentially bring up a lot of pain.

My old T and I hugged at the end of almost every session. My new T started to ask me if I wanted a hug. Then she told me that if I want hugs that I can ask her. Now we seem to do that part equally. I mean sometimes I ask her and sometimes she asks me. These are always at the end of the sessions.

One day when I was having a particularly difficult time I almost crawled up to her and put my head in her lap. I used to do this with my mom. I resisted that one! lol I have no idea how she'd have reacted.

One time a few years ago I cried for 3 weeks straight and then ended up in the hospital because I coudl not stop crying and the kicker was I had no idea WHY I was crying.

Anyway for 3 weeks when I saw my T I would motion for her to sit by me and she would and then I would bury my head in her neck and sob for the entire hour. I still to this day do not know what that was about. Finally on the third session she took me to the hospital ER. I stayed there for a couple of days and then asked to be discharged. I miss my old T so much. When my new T hugs me it is very nice and I like it but it's not the same as my old T.

Jo,

Did going to the hospital help? Were they able to do anything for you there?

I didn't know for the longest time what my T's hug policy was. Now I know she will hug me after every session if I ask for a hug. One time she spontaneously hugged me after a very hard session because she could sense I needed one, but we talked about that the next session, because it is her policy that I have to initiate the hug. She was just being sponataneous and perhaps a little maternal.

Sometimes I want to get up in the middle of session and hug her or climb on her lap, but I refrain from doing that. I'm am sure I'd find myself on the floor rather quickly if I didn't. And then she'd probably ask, "Now why did you feel a need to do that?"

I asked her to hold me once, but she said no. Sometimes I wish she'd at least touch my shoulder or my hand when I am crying. I do like it when she tilts her head when she is listening intently or feeling something for me.

But the hugs are great. I ask for them a lot more now and I find myself holding the embrace as long as I can. I am a long embracer when I hug, and this seems ok with my T. Sometimes it is very hard to let go and walk away.

I am also not very free with my hugs except with certain people and then I am very "huggy". They have to feel meaningful and I have to want it or I get upset. I think my T is hoping that will change, but it took me 2 1/2 years before I asked for my first hug from my T though I wanted to for so long.
JM

I seem to be in alone in this, but my therapist has a "no hug" policy with his patients. My first therapist did hug me but only when I asked. I went through a period when I asked pretty consistently and then it settled out and I would usually only ask at the end of a really hard session. There was a period where she would hold my hand during sessions when I was processing a lot of intense trauma. I swear I came close to breaking that poor woman's hand a few times.

It took me a long time to work up the courage to ask my present T for a hug. And honestly, I didn't ask until I knew I was capable of hearing a no because I was pretty sure that's what I was going to hear. I had talked to him a few times about wanting to be held but had never asked. I finally realized that I really needed to ask no matter what the answer was. I had come to realize that I did not ask for something unless I was absolutely sure the answer would be yes. That I had promised myself that I would never again be hurt by hearing a no. So it was important to me that I could ask for something, be told no, and still have the relationship be intact and even continue to bea good relationship. So I asked him at the beginning of a session (didn't want to get a no at the end and have to leave, too hard to deal with). My T very quickly and very gently told me no, then told me that he wanted to talk about why I wanted one and he wanted a chance to tell me why he said no. It was one of the best sessions I've ever had with him. He was able to hear why I wanted a hug, and to affirm my feelings and express a deep understanding of why I would want it. And even commend me for my courage in asking. I felt very accepted and understood.

Then he explained that it was nothing personal, or that he thought hugging me would be distasteful but that its his policy for all patients. And yes, that did help to hear, although I also told him that with my background of sexual abuse from my dad, why I realized that a hug might be more problematic in my case. As a matter of fact, I did tell him that I had been scared to ask for a hug for a long time because I wasn't completely sure of my motivation. Since I do feel very attracted to him, I wasn't completely sure how I would receive the hug.

Which it turned out was part of his reason for saying no. He felt that the little good that a hug might do was far outweighed by the possible harm. That I could be questioning why he was giving me one and even worse, if there was any hint of the erotic it could really damage me or our relationship. And that he felt that giving me a hug could hold out the promise of providing something the theraputic relationship could not provide. That not getting the hug allowed me to go past him to the pain of not getting that embrace from my father. No matter how many hugs I get from him, I would still have to mourn that.

So it was a very gentle and loving no and very important to our relationship. And he was very open to how I felt, we ended up discussing it a few more times including my pain over not being able to get a hug from him, so overall it's been a good experience. His attunement is so good and his ability to contain me that I often feel "held" although there is no physical embrace.

And I do get a handshake at the end of each session, so there's physical contact.

AG

quote:

Jo,

Did going to the hospital help? Were they able to do anything for you there?

River

Yes and no. I mean I did stop the incessant crying but I was so angry that I was there. It had been at least a decade since my last hospital stay. They did change my medications around but eventually I went back to what I had been taking all along.

quote:

Then he explained that it was nothing personal, or that he thought hugging me would be distasteful but that its his policy for all patients.

I can understand that. Especially being a guy and all. I know if I see a male gynocologist they always have a female nurse in the room for their protection. Maybe it is like that.

I know for me hugs are not the best way that I get support from my T. I honestly get more out of her caring words than I do out of hugs. Although last session her hug was paricularly warm and caring. I got the sense from it that she truly cared about me.

I am glad AG that you have such a caring T.

Jo,
Thanks, I'm really very grateful for him. He's an amazing T and has really helped me to do some significant healing.

I'm really glad to hear that you are sensing that your T truly cares about you. And I can understand getting more out of her caring words. Although our Ts cannot replace what we didn't get, the care and understanding that they give us is very real and very present. Experiencing that is a very important part of the healing.

AG

I'm all over astonished about the idea of getting a hug from a T. I pretty much have a "don't touch me" policy in the real world, and I can't imagine what it would be like if my T tried. I mean, I get that you all asked, I just... *ponders*

We're very different? Or you're farther along in the whole "healing" thing. Or I'm weird.

Wynne, you are not weird! You are one of the neatest, most genuine people I (don't) know (pardon the don't, cause how do I really know you other than anonymously and in short intervals on forum, but yet I feel like I do know you)Whenever I see you sign in, even if you don't post I get happy just seeing your name at the bottom of my screen and I smile.

I also don't think it has anything to do with being farther along, or here or there, it is more to do with our reactions and continued response to our past experiences.

So are cyber hugs out of the question Wynne?

It's always nice to see you surface.
JM

quote:

So are cyber hugs out of the question Wynne? Smiler

Heh, you caught me: you might have noticed I don't give those? I'm sorry about popping in and out. Some of the stuff that folks write sometimes makes me think a lot, and feel a lot, and I tend to go away for a while and work on stuff. I know I should probably work up the courage to post about it more, s'just hard. This post, for example. I got to thinking about what a "safe hug" would be like. Makes me a little sad.

And I'm always happy to see folks. I just... since I was a kid, pretty much forever, I've "shrugged off"/out of hugs. I've learned to stand still/pat backs now when they're called for in real life so's I don't hurt other people's feelings much, and I mostly just "do that" online, too.

Ok, I accept that. I still think you are an awesome person with so much insight and depth whether you feel that way or not. So I appreciate what you can post and I certainly understand needing time and space to absorb things.

Feeling sad about wondering what a "safe hug" would feel like is definitely worth paying attention to. Not that you asked me or anything. And for the unwelcome but sometimes called for hugs, I don't like them either. Blech! When I hug I want to feel it, not feel obligated to it.

JM

Hi Wynne,

I think I am a lot like you. I lurk here constantly but don't post very much and usually when I am in a lot of pain.

I think the hug conversation is interesting. My family hugs constantly, I'm pretty huggy with my female friends and some of the male ones (i've known a long time), and love hugs from my husband but I have no desire for physical contact with my T. Maybe I haven't known him long enough (10 months), maybe I don't trust him (which is true for many things), maybe I don't understand the phrase "safe hugs" because to me there are not safe hugs there are safe people who I can hug.

I don't think I've even shaken my T's hand and until recently I've never thought about it. I know what you mean about reading something and having to go away and think.

TG85- WELCOME! I think hugs are great if you receive them in a healthy way. I also think that they are a great way of discovering WHY we often avoid touch. If you are wondering if your T is abusing you, talk to her about it. I wouldn't recommend you say "Are you abusing me?" but maybe "I'm not really sure how I feel about this yet." She will most likely ask you why an all of that, but at least she will know what you are processing. If it still feels bad, don't engage in them. Protect yourself so that she doesn't violate you- even if her intentions are good, you might not be there yet.

AG-

quote:

I seem to be in alone in this, but my therapist has a "no hug" policy with his patients.

You're not alone here. My T has a "no touch" policy. She doesn't hug, shake hands, pat on the back or anything.

I have actually refrained from posting on this subject before because it is so very painful for me. I have asked her and asked her and asked her for any type of physical touch. She always tells me no, that she can't. I tell her I need to know that she isn't repulsed by me and that she really does care about me- I feel like physical touch is the only way I will ever know. She remains steadfast, but it is truly the worst rejection I have ever experienced in my life. I have even told her that she could beat me if she wanted to- ANYTHING!

I know she is careful with me because my most recent transference experience, prior to her, turned sexual. My wires are very crossed when it comes to sexuality and nuturance. She knows this and knows that I have fantasized about her sexually as well. I know she wants me to learn to trust her words, but it feels absolutely awful. I just want some physical acknowledgement that she really does accept me- I always wonder if her words are true, but I believe that I can trust touch.

Anyway, no hugs for me. On a (more humorous) side note, I tend to be a bit rebellious when it comes to following rules with her- I like to test my limits. Well, ever since she told me she has a "no touch" policy... I've had this urge to just randomly poke her in the arm or something. At the end of one of my sessions, when I hand her my check, I wanna be like "hey, what's that over there **pointing to something over her shoulder**." Then, when she turns her head I want to just poke her and say "HA HA Gotcha!" and then leave. I never had this urge until she told me I couldn't... clearly there are some ares where I didn't make it all the way through my teenage years developmentally!

-CT

When I hear about T's that have across the board boundaries, one-size-fits-all, I wonder if they have been royally screwed in the past by a former client - like a law-suit or something. I imagine it is pretty obvious to T's that not all of their clients are the same and need or don't need the same things. You'd think they would incorporate some flexibility in there. But if they won't, I wonder if it is because they have been burned.

quote:

I tend to be a bit rebellious when it comes to following rules with her- I like to test my limits. Well, ever since she told me she has a "no touch" policy... I've had this urge to just randomly poke her in the arm or something. At the end of one of my sessions, when I hand her my check, I wanna be like "hey, what's that over there **pointing to something over her shoulder**." Then, when she turns her head I want to just poke her and say "HA HA Gotcha!" and then leave. I never had this urge until she told me I couldn't... clearly there are some ares where I didn't make it all the way through my teenage years developmentally!

ROFL!!! CT you stinker! I love it, I love it. LOL! I needed a good hearty laugh. I hope its ok that I laughed like that. But I actually imagined you doing that and her looking at you stearnly saying "You stop that." I think my T would burst out laughing and if I kept doing that then she'd pigeon hold me and walk me out the door and I'd be saying, "so much for your no touch policy now, eh?"

Too funny. Sorry about the no hugs policy though.
JM

Hmmm - interesting thread, really got me thinking...

I don't know if my T has a hug policy, i've never asked... I can't even picture myself asking, to be honest, but i don't think it's something i've ever really yearned for...

I know I have some pretty intense maternal-yearning-type transference, but i think that i actually more would like to like cognitively mentored by my T, then actually held... I haven't really ever thought about this until now - my mind is actually racing as I type...

I know i'm a bit weird about hugs myself... i really like them (usually) but I almost never initiate them. I think I'm terrified of violating someone's boundaries... I think i put people off sometimes or come across as distant - people that i've hugged a dozen times, but if they don't raise their arms, i won't go in for the hug.

Also CT - hilarious! I think i'm with you on the development lags, 'cause my inner punkass kid is sitting here on the sidelines going "do it, do it, do it!" :-)

quote:

Originally posted by River:
I am grateful that my T is ok with hugs because I really appreciate them. She will also hold my hand or pat my arm sometimes when I get really sad. I find it comforting and grounding.

About 6 months ago I finally worked up the courage to ask her to sit on the couch with me and not across the room and I was so pleased that she didn't hesitate to do this or even ask why. I told her how much easier it was to talk to her when I didn't feel like I had to cross so much "space" and she has sat on the couch with me for every session since. The closer proximity has definitely helped me get a lot more stuff out in the open.

I find that really awesome. That must have taken a lot of courage to ask her that!!

My T doesn't have a couch.. I wish she did. I wish she would hold me sometimes, but I am WAY too scared to ask. I ask for hugs and thats close enough for now I guess hehe

quote:

Originally posted by Jo:
TG

Why do you think your T may be abusing you with hugs? Do they go beyond safe touch?

I may be weird but I won't see a T who will not give hugs. I don't know why that is either. I guess I feel it is a basic expression of connectedness particularly in a relationship that can potentially bring up a lot of pain.

My old T and I hugged at the end of almost every session. My new T started to ask me if I wanted a hug. Then she told me that if I want hugs that I can ask her. Now we seem to do that part equally. I mean sometimes I ask her and sometimes she asks me. These are always at the end of the sessions.

One day when I was having a particularly difficult time I almost crawled up to her and put my head in her lap. I used to do this with my mom. I resisted that one! lol I have no idea how she'd have reacted.

One time a few years ago I cried for 3 weeks straight and then ended up in the hospital because I coudl not stop crying and the kicker was I had no idea WHY I was crying.

Anyway for 3 weeks when I saw my T I would motion for her to sit by me and she would and then I would bury my head in her neck and sob for the entire hour. I still to this day do not know what that was about. Finally on the third session she took me to the hospital ER. I stayed there for a couple of days and then asked to be discharged. I miss my old T so much. When my new T hugs me it is very nice and I like it but it's not the same as my old T.

Well the reason why I feel she is abusing me at times is because of the connection. When I feel connected I get scared. That alarm goes off... what do they really want from me? Are they going to hurt me??

I know she isn't, yet I need reassurance sometimes....

Anyways I love that you cried on your therapist. I really hope I have the courage to do that.. because I have always dreamed of someone I trusted holding me while I cried...

I think I would only see Ts that hug as well, because it is healing. It is helping us to trust and feeling connected! I am so loving the responses on this thread!! I feel like its okay to want/need that touch from my T. Last week when I hugged her I felt bad for wanting it. I guess thats common!

I feel like such an *** that I said my therapist was abusing me, because I know she isn't... I guess I meant to say ... is it okay to hug your T??

quote:

Originally posted by Wynne:
I'm all over astonished about the idea of getting a hug from a T. I pretty much have a "don't touch me" policy in the real world, and I can't imagine what it would be like if my T tried. I mean, I get that you all asked, I just... *ponders*

We're very different? Or you're farther along in the whole "healing" thing. Or I'm weird.

Your not weird!! We are all different. We have been through different things ect. I normally don't like people hugging or touching me, but I really trust my T so that is why I enjoy hugs from her. I feel like she understands me.... and cares about me for who I am .. not who I pretend to be

quote:

And for the unwelcome but sometimes called for hugs, I don't like them either. Blech! When I hug I want to feel it, not feel obligated to it.

JM

That is very well put! I feel like I have to hug my friends after seeing them, and usually I just don't want to. I feel forced, but with my T I feel safe and like its my choice

I guess I've avoided this topic long enough...long enough to agonize over it. hmmmm.....

quote:

When I hear about T's that have across the board boundaries, one-size-fits-all, I wonder if they have been royally screwed in the past by a former client

I've wondered this same thing....River. My T of 18 years has this across the board policy. At least that is what she tells me. I do question it, even though I doubt she would ever lie to me. And I do wonder if something has happened in her past that has made her adopt this policy. I have even asked her but she denies that...still...I feel she has personal discomfort with the whole issue. It seems like risk management to me.
Or she is just not comfortable with herself. hmmm.... No...this is not a projection, I personally don't have a problem with hugs...but it did take alot of therapy (with other T's) for me to get to that point. She is the only one that has played this card with me.
Sometimes she states that it is her "training" that has influenced her policy. But in long term therapy...techniques will only go so far before they become useless and ineffective.

Now...with this T...I am feeling very constrained and feel like some of my previous work has been undone. I find I am more uncomfortable with touch than I have been in the past. My friends and family definitely notice it. My S.O. really wants her cuddles back!
I am still considering terminating therapy with this T...mostly over this issue. And my friends and family are encouraging me to do so. I have to defend my T's position with them...just as I always have in relationship to my father. My friends and family are drawing parallels between my T and my father. Not good.
I understand that she wants me to verbalize my needs and not act on them...but I've done that...and enough is enough. As it is...there is a tension in the room that goes unaddressed. I have respected her boundaries for years...why doesn't she trust me? And why do I feel the need to cross that boundary now? I feel alone with my s**t and she seems unreal and lacking in substance. Sometimes it seems like if I were to reach out to touch her...my hand would pass right through her as if she were a ghost or hologram.

I've taken the position of sitting in my corner and throwing verbal darts at her about this...it's clearly passive aggressive...and it's a bit strange that she seems to hate those darts...but also finds them somewhat amusing. It's become a little game we play.
I have told her that I thought it was an issue we were going to have to agree to disagree on. She tells me it is a gift that she is giving me...thanks doc...isn't it obvious that I didn't want that gift? Didn't you get that from the ambush hug I just gave you? *dripping sarcasm*

All of this does not change the fact that I find it is having an effect on my personal life and I resent it. I feel somewhat damaged by her lack of physical contact with me. After all...I have known her for 18 years and she knows I am thinking about terminating my therapy because of this and wants to work it as a transference issue. I do not believe that is what it is. I guess if I do terminate I'll have to send her a card...or something equally distant and stupid. Can you hear me getting worked up about this?

I know that I will have to talk about this issue again...so that she is clear about my reasons for considering termination. I really dread this conversation...since it is sure to be full of misunderstandings.
It seems like a ridiculous reason to terminate such a long term relationship...but if it is causing me harm...then it seems like a good reason to me. I'm still trying to balance this equation and will talk to my psychiatrist about it tomorrow. He has already stated that he does not want me to terminate my therapy with my T but has not told me why. So I scheduled some time to talk to him about it. WHEW...I have a big day tomorrow...a 2 hour session with my T. A ten minute break then an hour with my P.
What was I thinking?

My T will not get a repeat performance of "the hug" from me. That was way too painful. I was ready for rejection...but I did not anticipate NO response. Now that hurt. It felt sadistic and really pushed some terrible buttons for me. (I have already posted this story in another thread.)

I just don't understand how T's can totally ignore this as a very important tool. There are times in my therapy when I just don't want anyone to touch me...in any way. But it's pretty obvious. It doesn't take a genius to read body language. And there are times when I need a reassuring and supportive gesture to feel like I can continue to endure the pain of the memories that I am recovering. Not to mention the fact that a simple touch is very grounding...and will often keep me from leaving her office totally dissociated. I have also explained this to her. She asked me what would help to ground me...but drew the line at crossing the touch boundary. Many parts of me just react to this as being untouchable, unlovable, and uncared for. These feelings have permeated my entire being and damaged my trust with her.

Arrrrghhh....I am so frustrated by this...sometimes I just want to cancel all my appts. and drop off her radar. But I have unresolved issues with bad terminations...so I would really like to get this one right, if that is what I have to do.
I would like to resolve this issue with her and get past it so we can continue. I care for her very much and I know she cares for me...even worries about me. Sometimes she asks me who I "think" I am to her...(it's a strange question) but my reply goes like this: "I'm Tuesday @ 1:30." She seems to be amused that I believe that she is so detached that I cannot even reply with my name. But if she is unable to individualize therapy for her clients...then that is what I am...a time...and a place.
For 18 years...I am Tuesday @ 1:30 and Friday @ 11:00. How weird is that?

SD

quote:

.
For 18 years...I am Tuesday @ 1:30 and Friday @ 11:00. How weird is that?

SD

WOW I think that is really cool you have had the same therapist for that long! And that is funny that the time and date are the same.

I am sure your therapist cares for you--you two have seen each other for so long now. I would deff. talk to your therapist about your feelings. Be open and honest about how it feels to you. It can help you a lot to work through those feelings.

A therapist can care about their client very much without hugging them. I do agree that perhaps they may have been screwed in the past. But some people don't believe in touching their clients... or may just not like touching people period.

I hope you can work through this and feel better =)

quote:

Sometimes she asks me who I "think" I am to her...(it's a strange question) but my reply goes like this: "I'm Tuesday @ 1:30." She seems to be amused that I believe that she is so detached that I cannot even reply with my name.

Mind if I pick at this bone too? 18 years! Kind of like a long marriage. You know in a long marriage/relationship we tend to get comfortable believing that certainly after all this time our relationship partner knows we care about them. I imagine it can get that comfortable between a client/therapist too. Not that it should mind you, but it sort of becomes more relaxed. But I definitley think you should talk about this with her. You need and deserve to know she has feelings for you and that you are more than just Tuesday @ 1:30 and Friday @ 11:00.

I hope you don't mind if I share a recent muse I had this morning, it's kind of funny; I was thinking about how my T acknowledged to me last week that "we have been working on this attachment process for a long time." In fact, it will be three years this May. So I was sort of amusing myself with the idea of what she might say if I ask her what she's going to get me for our anniversary. LOL Hey I was driving an hour both ways on the highway, I have to do something to break the monotony of paying attention to my surroundings.

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
..."we have been working on this attachment process for a long time."

JM,

I know this is a bit off-topic, but my T - despite his cerebral style - rarely uses any kind of psychological terminology or jargon, such as "attachment," "transference," "ego" or "the self." The only terms I recall him using are "imago" and "manifest and latent content" in reference to dreams.

Sometimes I bring these terms up and want to talk about them and he'll entertain my curiosity for a bit, but then he'll always say, "but this is really a kind of distraction." And what he means I think is that this stuff is technical and intellectual, not feeling.

The son of a gun always wants to bring it back to the feeling.

Five more days till T-time. Hope you're hanging in there, JM.

Russ

Hey if it makes you feel any better Russ, my T pulls that intellect avoidance thing with me too. I mean she will use the word "attachment" freely, and occasionally "transference." She is definitely more into wanting to focus on the emotions and snubs the intellectual garb pretty regularly. She's even snickered and rolled her eyes if I use a term she knows I learned online. Like when I used the word "titrate." <- That one's for her in case she were to read this. OMG! I think we spent nearly a half session or longer on my need to use the lingo. To which a very ugly dispute over that insued. Funny NOW, but ugly then. We worked through a lot of pillage on that one though.

....hmmmm...kinda makes me think of CT's mischievous desire to poke her T when I want to sit down in front of my T next time and say "titrate, titrate, titrate!" -I'm such a child!

I think our Ts are just afraid that the intellectualism will get in the way of our emotional processing and they have a point there. If we are constantly intellectualizing we're not processing where we should be. So your T is right. But I think they can find a balance to appease our intellectualism just a smidgen.
JM

JM-

quote:

I hope its ok that I laughed like that.

It is definitely okay. I'm glad that you found it amusing... I do! I keep my T laughing all the time too, not in an aviodant-I-don't-wanna-talk-about-deep-stuff way, but just because I have these really random, immature thoughts and I don't hold back with her. One day she asked me why I didn't do something she had suggested and I said "because it was your idea." I think it kinda keeps her on her toes...

quote:

....hmmmm...kinda makes me think of CT's mischievous desire to poke her T when I want to sit down in front of my T next time and say "titrate, titrate, titrate!"

Me??? Mischievous?? Where did you ever get that idea?

**sitting in corner with side control rooting you on**

-CT

JM and Russ,
I totally relate. I've lost track of the times my T has told me that if it were only cognitive, the first time we walk through the door, they would just hand us a book and say "have a nice life."

I sometimes hated the fact that the healing occurs only when you process on an emotional level. But being able to feel our emotions and handle feeling them is how we learn to be present and really live. But man, was it unbelieveably painful sometimes. My T and I actually talked today about the mystery of why we keep coming when its so painful. That it often just feels like why would you do this, it's so painful? But the healing makes it worth all the pain.

SD,
I want to say something about a T not giving you a hug while still caring about you, but I want to tread very carefully here. And actually, I also don't want to offend anyone who does get hugs from their Ts or seem like I'm criticizing. I'm definitely speaking from my experience with my T and what he believes is right and I don't think that makes it right for every client or even every therapist. The only reason I'm posting this is that I have experienced my T NOT hugging me as a very caring, loving thing to do and I thought that might provide some comfort for you.

My T refraining from hugging is twofold. With his women clients he feels like it is way too easy to have a hug be misinterpreted or received the wrong way (or even given the wrong way, this is not a man who sees himself as perfect or above being human). So the potential for harm just seems like too much of a risk to him.

But the second reason I think is his more important one. The real healing takes place when we mourn our losses. Our wanting to be held and hugged is so closely related to what we didn't get. If that desire is gratified by him, I may not have let myself feel the pain and mourn the loss of not having gotten that as a child. Just as the frustration of not getting enough in therapy because of the boundaries leads us to mourn the loss of what we didn't get as children and the impossibility of our relentless hope that we can get it which drives us to keep looking for it in all our relationships that provide even a hint of a possibility of providing that.

But we can get what we need in therapy to heal and form a secure base and learn to relate differently. For some people, what they need to get in therapy may include touch, including hugs. I know for me, I think it was very important to my healing that my T didn't hug me. It was bound up in a lot of my issues, about having needs and hearing no and being able to make clear what I wanted even if I couldn't get it. So I just offer this as one case in point, where withholding a hug was not an uncaring gesture, nor do I think it was because my T has any issues with touch.

All that said, I understand why this has become such an issue for you. My T does shake my hand at the end of every session, so I am getting that physical touch which reinforces the reality of the relationship and assures me that I'm not repulsive. And I would NEVER presume to tell you what you need, what is damaging to you and what therapist you should see. I just wanted to say that a lack of touch is not always incompatible with a very real sense of caring.

And if any of this bothers you, please let me know. I can lend you the HTML slapper.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
....hmmmm...kinda makes me think of CT's mischievous desire to poke her T when I want to sit down in front of my T next time and say "titrate, titrate, titrate!" -I'm such a child!

JM

I think when I see my guy next week I'm going to start the session with: "so, last Monday while I was sobbing in the bathroom at work and wondering if I'll feel like this until the end of time, I began thinking about Lacan's concept of The Real versus Jung's theory of individuation. It's so interesting. What say you, Doctor?"

Russ

Hi AG....

Thanks for your input...it is always valuable and wanted.

quote:

SD,
The real healing takes place when we mourn our losses. Our wanting to be held and hugged is so closely related to what we didn't get. If that desire is gratified by him, I may not have let myself feel the pain and mourn the loss of not having gotten that as a child. Just as the frustration of not getting enough in therapy because of the boundaries leads us to mourn the loss of what we didn't get as children and the impossibility of our relentless hope that we can get it which drives us to keep looking for it in all our relationships that provide even a hint of a possibility of providing that.

I do understand this dynamic...but in my case it is hard to apply. As a host or primary...I can work transference but it does me little good when a good portion of my development has been compartmentalized into separate identities. They have their separate issues and need to be treated as individuals....before they can become a part of a collective. It is extremely difficult for a 4 year old to understand boundaries...let alone transference and countertransference. It is equally hard for an alter that holds only rage without any other emotion to work with. It is their needs that should be met. I cannot mourn for what those children didn't get...I can only mourn for what they did get...(for what happened to them.) My childhood had such a negative impact on my life that I do whatever I can to not repeat that pattern. My S.O. is nothing like either one of my parents...and I felt strong in making that choice. She does provide alot of what I did not receive from my parents and I am very grateful for that.

quote:

But we can get what we need in therapy to heal and form a secure base and learn to relate differently. For some people, what they need to get in therapy may include touch, including hugs. I know for me, I think it was very important to my healing that my T didn't hug me. It was bound up in a lot of my issues, about having needs and hearing no and being able to make clear what I wanted even if I couldn't get it. So I just offer this as one case in point, where withholding a hug was not an uncaring gesture, nor do I think it was because my T has any issues with touch.

I don't believe that I have formed a secure base with my T. It is a rather fragmented base...as of course it would be given my dx. I do have alot of issues that are a result of a confused sense of what is good touch vs. bad touch. But they are not necessarily "my" issues. I know my T is very concerned about how to proceed given my current state of fragmentation. It was far easier for her to work transference with me than to try to juggle the needs of my many alters. I know she is struggling as much as I am. I do not feel that she is being uncaring. But the lack of any physical contact is just as disturbing as having too much contact. And in my case...it creates mistrust and suspicion for those that live in my system. What they didn't get from my parents is exactly what they need to learn and experience in order to overcome their trauma. My point here...is that they never learned. Some hold only trauma...some hold only emotion...some only anger...some are full of rage. Some respect rules...others are defiant and understand nothing else.

quote:

All that said, I understand why this has become such an issue for you. My T does shake my hand at the end of every session, so I am getting that physical touch which reinforces the reality of the relationship and assures me that I'm not repulsive. And I would NEVER presume to tell you what you need, what is damaging to you and what therapist you should see. I just wanted to say that a lack of touch is not always incompatible with a very real sense of caring.

I do not require much from my T...but some shade of grey would help. As in your case...a simple handshake or pat on the back would do. But I do not think that will ever happen. It might...but right now...I can only see it as a goodbye gesture.
It isn't as big an issue for me personally as it is for my fragmented selves. I understand that my T cares for me...even loves me. If she didn't then she certainly would not have kept me for 18 years. And that is why I am having such a hard time with my decision about whether or not to terminate with her. I do not want to do it, but I do wonder if I need to do it, for the good of the entire system. The damage that I feel is, for the most part, in questioning my self about what is appropriate and inappropriate in my real life relationships. I have made good choices and need to trust that. My support people are there for me and will help me in any way they can.

quote:

And if any of this bothers you, please let me know. I can lend you the HTML slapper.
AG

Nothing that you have said bothers me...don't worry about that.
What I am dealing with is not a one-size-fits-all type of dx. And it is very hard to see how this therapy is going to work out. However I have not asked my T if she intends to work this way, or is working this way, with my alters...I will do that next session. If my only option is to work out my transference then I will increase the medication and work on suppressing my alters. However that hardly seems like the path to integrating them...does it? Until some co-conciousness returns or a spontaneous integration occurs it seems unlikely that this form will work for me.
If the re-traumatizing experience that caused my re-fragmentation had not occured. I probably would have been fine continuing to work the transference issues with my T. As it is right now...something has to change...or I have to find my way back to where I was a year ago. But I was not whole...and much of what is my "true self" was lost.

Working transference seems to assume that you are working with a full deck. I am playing 52 card pick up...hoping that someday I will find all the cards so that I can assemble a full deck. If I ever do get that deck together I may redefine the meaning of "playing solitaire!" *smirk*

In rethinking my tirade about the "hug" issue. I have to say that I understand her boundaries...I have not challenged them for 15 years. I did in the beginning...so that I could determine what they were. But as soon as I realized it...I submitted to them. I am somewhat angry at myself for not holding true to my feelings about that. I have never been comfortable with the boundaries and did not give that enough expression.

What I am doing now...is reclaiming my power. When I did hug her...she made a statement by not responding. She reclaimed the power as hers...and I rebelled. I was unable to re-submit. I am still in that rebellious position mostly because of my fragmented selves...and the rejection they feel, they will not trust her fully.

At the time...of the ambush hug...my main objective was to begin a termination process. She misinterpreted, because of my lack of proper explanation.
I want very much to do this in a healthy way and not repeat the mistakes I have made or were made for me in previous terminations. I do not want to terminate with her. But she may not be equipped to deal with what she is trying to learn. I guess I will have to ask her that in a more direct manner but that will be difficult for me, since it will inevitably point to her failings. I care much for her...I do not want to hurt her. My only wish is to remain in some kind of contact with her. This will have to be her decision alone.

I have decided not to push her boundaries any more, but I will not submit to the overwhelming power that she has over me, unless she can explain why it is in my best interest to do so, and demonstrates the ability to use that power wisely. I will put on my assertive hat and will try to talk to her...if I can drag her out of symbol land long enough to hear me in a concrete, real way.

Tonight...I feel pretty lost and discouraged. I am wondering if I want to continue any kind of therapy. I will probably have to...or risk the possibility of being hospitalized. That is not something I want to repeat...it would devastate me to think that I had fallen back that far. I fear that I would give up on ever recovering.

"When you look long into an abyss...the abyss also looks into you."

Thank you so much for your reply...it gave me a chance to reflect on my tirade and see it for what it truly was...a painful RANT that I just needed to purge.

SD

SD,
Thank you for being so understanding, I really believe its a complex issue in and of itself and there isn't a "one size fits all" solution. I think in your situation there are even more complexities as you talked about. I think the most important thing is that you are listening to yourself and honoring your needs. I know it has to be difficult to even contemplating leaving someone after 18 years, let alone doing it. I am impressed by your courage and your committment to your healing. I really trust that whatever you decide to do will be the right thing for you.

AG

As posted elsewhere - I have initiated some holding and kiss on the cheek which was spontaneous at the time - and now I think I might have to read something into it...I know my T longer than I've known my husband...can we ever take anything at face value ever again? I mean can the hug/kiss not be just that?? Do I have to (AG?)talk to him about it, do I, do I, do I?

Love the intellectual stuff guys..HB, Russ...keep it up...I feel like this is a private club where only members will get the jokes...mind you remember Groucho Marx 'I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member!@..

LOS

LOS,
Do you really want me to say it?

Actually, the hug/kiss could be just that. To quote Freud, sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. But the fact that you might be reading something into it means it needs to be discussed. That's where the work gets done; around our reactions to our T because if we're reacting to our T that way chances are we're reacting to other people that way. This is our chance to yank it out into the light of day and examine it. And then beat the crap out of it if necessary.

Sorry, I'm in a very silly mood today. Probably shouldn't be posting.

AG

Oh AG - I thought you'd never respond!!! Was waiting to see if you could resist...made my day!!! Doncha just luvvit!!!!

LOS

Where's that slapper thing??? Reckon I deserve one!!

Lady

Damn! I am WAY too predicatable!

Glad not to disappoint though.

You don't get slapped when you're right.