But I'm having a really tough time posting about it. I'm back to feeling very confused about therapy and how I'm feeling and the longing for my T and the whole shebang.

There's been a LOT going on, in therapy and on the inside, and two things happen. When I feel needy, I pull back. And when so much is going on inside I tend to look more inward. And I know I talked about this happening at Christmas but it's continuing and I didn't notice it until a friend pointed it out.

I was really at a point where I had seen so much progress that I was actually thinking that I was "better" (a thing which really doesn't exist; we just learn to deal with things better). Then the "mom" stuff reared its head, and I know from long experience that there is some very diffcult painful work ahead. And it's going to hurt like hell. I feel a little worn out at the thought of having to do more emotionally intense, confusing work. It's like I'm struggling enough that I'm not capable of giving as much. And I don't want to feel it, so without even realizing it, I'm shutting down and for some reason it's hard to talk about things when you're shut down.

My relationship with my T has me really confused right now too. Which feels so wrong after the session I just had giving him my gift. But I think that's part of the problem. My last several sessions with him have been really amazing and I'm feeling very close and like, finally, I get that the relationship is a real one. I don't think I was able to see for a long time my T's depth of caring and involvement or even how much he liked me. And now I'm realizing it. But in some ways, feeling like this is making it even worse I can't have more. You know when I thought I was the world's largest pain in the tush and he just wanted me gone, the boundaries didn't matter as much (although I still railed against them) beause in some ways it didn't feel like they were keeping me from anything.

At a recent session, we were actually discussing the boundaries and my T told me that sometimes the boundaries can be frustrating for the T also. That they get to meet fascinating people but are limited in what they talk to them about because the therapy has to stay about the patient. He was very careful and I don't believe he said anything wrong but somehow knowing that maybe I'm not the only one that doesn't like the limits hurts even more.

A month or so back, we had a session in which we discussed my attraction to him and my erotic feeligns. And one of the things that came out during that session was my reluctance to have any sexual feelings, they all feel wrong. And that to want anyone to desire me in that way is also wrong. My therapist told me that this was a chance to experience a healthy sexual response in a safe relationship. Which I really believe this is a safe one. Since then, I think I have been allowing myself to feel what I feel about my T without judging it. And I have come to recognize that while it would be very wrong to act on it, the response, in and of itself, is a healthy one. This is a man who I find physically attractive, who has been there for me emotionally in a way no one else has been, including my own parents. Is it really so suprising that I might want to express my feelings that way? Which I think has all been a good thing but has made me more aware of the feelings so to speak.

Then at our last couples session, where to be honest, I was already having a difficult time, because the man was looking six different kinds of fine, my husband suddenly decides to bring up sex. I now hold the world record in longest blush ever. It was just lovely discussing the subject with all three of us in the room. My T was discussing how closeness and intimacy, enjoying each other's company, and a deepening relationship will lead to expressing it physically. Which I totally got, but that emotional sequence is in many ways what has been happening emotionally between my T and I, and although I get it rationally, emotionally it's hard to understand that in one case it leads there and in the other case, you're forbidden to go there.

I had put in an emergency call to my T and he called back after a longer gap than usual from his cell phone and it sounded like he was in a car. We talked for several minutes (I was feeling scared about not being up to facing the grief over my mother) and got off the phone. Ten minutes later, he called again, but when I answered and said hello several times, no one replied. While I wrestled with the temptation of having an open line when he didn't know about it, I could hear his voice over the radio and what sounded like the voice of a woman responding although I couldn't understand what either of them was saying. My conscious won and I hung up the phone and I sent an email to my T so that he knew it happened. I was glad that I did the right thing and hung up, but it once again really rubbed the fact in my face that I am such a small part of his life. That he talked to me for a few minutes, then went back to his "real" life and to the woman who can have all the things with him I can't.

And I'm really confused, I'm having a hard time sorting out what's from the past and what' the present. I do believe that so much of the intensity of my feelings and longings are about what I didn't get in the past and my need to mourn them. I mean, that's what its been about so far and I have been healing due to the mourning. But I also think that as the relationship has deepened that I am also engaging on a more on an adult level. Which I guess is good since part of the point here is to grow up and get independent. But it's confusing feeling all this about him and not being sure which feelings are about today and which about my past.

And although I thought that I had safely put it away, getting closer is triggering my need to run again. That allowing myself to get this close will only bring pain. And it's really ringing true because part of my pain is because of getting closer, although I realize that the dynamic I experienced before and that I fear now is much differnt from what is actually transpiring between my T and I.

And last but not least, we had a mixup about appt times and I'm waiting to hear from him so I don't know WHEN my next appt is.

I really need to see my T and sort this out.But I feel like a disastrous mess and sometimes the thought of going near him again and feeling all this is just sucks. Part of the reason that I don't want to go near him is because I know he'll provide what I need to walk through the pain. But right now that doesn't sound so appealing. I just feel like the world's biggest basket case.

I KNOW I've made progress, but right now it feels like it's all just been a delusion on my part. So that's how I'm feeling in all my glory. Although I'm not losing sight of what I need to do to heal and knowing that experiencing this pain is necessary to healing but it's one thing to know that and another to do it. Now, don't you feel better about how you're handling things?

I'm glad that no matter how scary and overwhelming it can feel,that I have people I can talk to and admit feeling this overwhelmed. Thanks.

AG

AG,
Please know that we all care about you even when you are having a difficult time and may not quite be yourself. It's ok, we're here and we want to share with you and listen to you the way you do for us. While we miss your insightfulness when you are feeling low, it is ok, because we know you'll return, and it helps us to see that we ALL have good and bad times too and hopefully someday we can master this the way you have. Ok, I'm not sure that came out quite the way I was thinking. It is supposed to sound consoling and good, so if you feel other wise well, feel free to use the slapper on........PL (I don't know I had to come up with someone besides me she's always coming after me with that thing...Sorry PL, no hard feelings? ) Ok you guys know I'm just kidding right?

Anyway AG, Your progress is not a delusion! I know that therapy is not a linear process, but I think the fragments do come in layers and just when it feels like we accomplish something and we're on top of it, that is when the deeper stuff bubbles to the surface. It's like you always say, it's because of the progress we have made that allows us to be strong enough to handle the more difficult emotions that come up now. I know it is exhausting because it feels like we barely have time to take in air before we go under again. Thankfully our T's make such good life lines though.

Some of the best advice I see in this post is in your own words:

quote:

Although I'm not losing sight of what I need to do to heal and knowing that experiencing this pain is necessary to healing but it's one thing to know that and another to do it.

That's so painfully true! I hear you, believe me I do.

So hold tight, you'll get through this valiantly too.

In the wise words of Red Green, "Remember, we're pulling for you. We're all in this together."
JM

AG

I know you will get through this because you are courageous and brave and you don't give up. As Jm said, you are ALWAYS here for all of us, so let us be here for you. I'm happy that you are able to verbalize these feelings to us and I hope it gives you some relief to know that we have all been and we do understand.

JM

Thanks for making me the sacrificial lamb!! That's ok, I'll take a slap for you any time. But, only if I can say this:
(Thanks for the out loud belly laugh!)

PL

Thanks JM and PL for your support.

JM, I really appreciate your understanding about my ability to be present and all your encouragement.

PL, you're very brave to take a slap for JM, so I'm setting the HTML slapper on "Tickle." And I'm already feeling more relieved for just having been able to say all that and have it heard. Thank you!

AG

Thanks AG
I'm giggling already! My husband is going to wonder what's going on when I go to bed with a big grin on my face. Uh-oh, hope it doesn't give him any ideas!

PL

quote:

At a recent session, we were actually discussing the boundaries and my T told me that sometimes the boundaries can be frustrating for the T also. That they get to meet fascinating people but are limited in what they talk to them about because the therapy has to stay about the patient. He was very careful and I don't believe he said anything wrong but somehow knowing that maybe I'm not the only one that doesn't like the limits hurts even more.

That last would really start to drive me nuts, to be honest. Feeling like _they_ were chafing at boundaries would make me _hate_ them. I know there are some folks here who get 'em and like 'em *eyes the strange people* :P but I'd really start to look askance at boundaries after this.

Many thanks for letting us know where you're at and sharing, AG. It really does help to know that everybody's in this place sometimes. I'm sorry you're there, though! It must really suck to think you've got things figured and then have to "go back." Even if, as you've said, it's not really back.

quote:

At a recent session, we were actually discussing the boundaries and my T told me that sometimes the boundaries can be frustrating for the T also. That they get to meet fascinating people but are limited in what they talk to them about because the therapy has to stay about the patient. He was very careful and I don't believe he said anything wrong but somehow knowing that maybe I'm not the only one that doesn't like the limits hurts even more.

AG -

This is what happened with me and my son's T. I told her about the transference and we had a really good discussion about it. Then the next week I asked her if she would want to be friends had we not met this way. She said "definitely, yes," in a way that made me think she really meant it. She said a few other things that made me think she wished it could be different too. It really felt good to hear that, but two days later I was reeling from it. Instead of making me feel good about myself it made me mad that such boundaries existed. That's when the transference really became an obsession and I think was right before I posted here the first time.

This roller coaster of emotions is what really is throwing me for a loop. And while it's good to know I'm not the only one going through it, I hope for a more smooth ride for all of us.

OW

quote:

I asked her if she would want to be friends had we not met this way. She said "definitely, yes," in a way that made me think she really meant it. She said a few other things that made me think she wished it could be different too. It really felt good to hear that, but two days later I was reeling from it. Instead of making me feel good about myself it made me mad that such boundaries existed.

Can I ask you, OW, that if she had said "no" or "probably not," or even "I don't know" - would've you been any less hurt? I am sure T's get asked this question all of the time - and I am sure that there is no right answer unless down the road you can at least hold onto that this person whom you felt so connected to also felt & enjoyed the connection too. If you can take this and realize that this means you have so much potential to connect with other people and have things to offer them that they will cherish, well, then I hope you can see that you have the capacity to have many more deep, significant relationships in your life than you do at present. And like HB said, (which hits it on the nose I think):

quote:

it was a time of really strong feelings that often weren't fulfilled. And the only thing worse than them not being fulfilled was them being fulfilled! But in the process of experiencing them we grew in confidence and learnt how to live and feel.

HB put this so beautifully that I can't really say much more than that.

quote:

My T was discussing how closeness and intimacy, enjoying each other's company, and a deepening relationship will lead to expressing it physically.

I am so starting to get to this place with my T and it is really disconcerting. This is what finally made me bring up the obvious lack of emotional intimacy in my marriage with my husband because it is such an amazingly powerful turn-on. I can see why and how people have "emotional affairs." I can also see myself easily falling into something like this as a convenient loophole around good ole Mr. Conscience. Intimacy is a heady experience that makes us vulnerable to being deeply hurt - I am really glad that we all seem to have trustworthy T's!

quote:

And I'm really confused, I'm having a hard time sorting out what's from the past and what' the present. I do believe that so much of the intensity of my feelings and longings are about what I didn't get in the past and my need to mourn them. I mean, that's what its been about so far and I have been healing due to the mourning. But I also think that as the relationship has deepened that I am also engaging on a more on an adult level. Which I guess is good since part of the point here is to grow up and get independent. But it's confusing feeling all this about him and not being sure which feelings are about today and which about my past.

I just wanted to post that it's really useful to hear about the progress you've made, where you're able to open up and care about folks and have this kind of conflicted feeling. I know it probably doesn't sound awesome to hear, since conflicted feelings and this confusion probably sucks, but it sounds really like you've got a deep relationship that's meaningful and confusing and full of feeling - that is, a good, solid, strong relationship.

/envy

quote:

You know how it feels to me? A bit like puberty, it is that space between having the needs of a child and being a woman. So if we think back to those choatic years of puberty, it was a time of really strong feelings that often weren't fulfilled. And the only thing worse than them not being fulfilled was them being fulfilled! But in the process of experiencing them we grew in confidence and learnt how to live and feel.

HB,
Thank you, you nailed it! That's exactly what I feel like, an adolescent. And it's helping me remember why I don't want to be 17 again for all the money in the world. But it's that same mixture of I'm scared, I'm insecure, I'm mad at you because I feel this way about you. Get away from me, do you like me? I really want you; I need my space. Thank you, your insight is helping make more sense of this.

quote:

his is what finally made me bring up the obvious lack of emotional intimacy in my marriage with my husband because it is such an amazingly powerful turn-on. I can see why and how people have "emotional affairs." I can also see myself easily falling into something like this as a convenient loophole around good ole Mr. Conscience. Intimacy is a heady experience that makes us vulnerable to being deeply hurt - I am really glad that we all seem to have trustworthy T's!

River,
I love how you always go to the heart of the matter (in all senses ). It's the intimacy that is making this so hard. It's like I want to go towards my T because the intimacy is so inviting but what I really need to do is go towards my husband and learn to be as intimate with him. But it's a lot more work there because oh yeah, we have to pay attention to his needs too and in some ways, especially as pertains to the effects of the abuse, my T just understands so much better. I really struggle with feeling guilty because in some ways my relationship with my T is deeper and more intimate than my relationship with my husband. The truth is I would never have this deep and intimate a relationship with a man not my husband unless he were my T. And that seems like SUCH a thin line between right and wrong. As badly as I strive against the boundaries sometimes (and right now I feel like a screaming lunatic!) I am so grateful that I know my T takes his responsibility in this area very seriously and would never abuse his power. He promised me a long time ago that nothing would ever happen. That promise is the only thing that has allowed me to go so deep.

quote:

I know it probably doesn't sound awesome to hear, since conflicted feelings and this confusion probably sucks, but it sounds really like you've got a deep relationship that's meaningful and confusing and full of feeling - that is, a good, solid, strong relationship.

Wynne,
Thank you, I didn't think it was possible to see an upside to feeling this way, but you did. You're right, this may be painful and uncomfortable but I'm present, I'm aware of my feelings, I'm blessed enough to have somewhere to express them (thank you all!) and enough emotional involvement to make this sometimes scary, but also sometimes incredibly joyful. Those are so many things I wasn't capable of once. They may be painful and confusing right now but they're my feelings and I'm entitled to feel them. And grateful that I can. Thanks for finding the silver lining.

AG

AG

I read your original post and wanted to say that I have been in that kind of pain you are talking about. You even feel bad that you even talked to them for a minute or two. Like it rips the scab off and bleeds again.

And I know what you mean that it hurts to know that you are not the only one wanting your T's attention etc. Those things hurt me too.

But one thing I wanted to say was that I have heard before that it's not good to do couple's counseling with your own personal therapist. I am not sure your whole situation or whatever so if I have misunderstood it please disreguard. But the reason it's not a good idea is that it can be very awkward as you described for you and/or your husband. I was always told by my past Ts that if I wanted couple's counseling it was better to get a T that was neutral to both of us.

Again I am not sure if I am helping or hurting or what but just wanted to add that.

quote:

Can I ask you, OW, that if she had said "no" or "probably not," or even "I don't know" - would've you been any less hurt?

River - I'm pretty sure I would have been devastated by any other answer. It really was the best answer she could have given, especially since I really believe she was sincere. And thank you, I've never looked at it quite that way before, but I guess maybe she saw something worth liking. Now if I could just learn to let other people see, I'll be in business.

AG - the way you continue to work with the highs and lows never ceases to amaze me. I know you probably realize it but there's really nothing for you to feel guilty about. I don't think it's a one or the other situation. If your T wasn't around, would you be able to go towards your husband more easily? Or is your relationship with your T helping you be able to move closer to your husband?

OW

quote:

If your T wasn't around, would you be able to go towards your husband more easily? Or is your relationship with your T helping you be able to move closer to your husband?

OW

Good point for me to think about. As I was reading AG's post, so much of it rang true for me. I am way more emotionally intimate with my T than anyone else I know. Especially my husband. Vulnerability is a HUGE issue for me. But, the intimacy that I have with my T and the risks I take with her, have helped me to be more open to my husband and it has really changed our relationship for the better. My T is helping me create those patterns in my brain that tell me it is ok to show your emotions and feelings to those you trust and they won't judge you. Of course, I've only made baby steps on this, but I know my husband has noticed that something is different about me, and he likes it. I've lived all my life with this fear and the only variable is therapy with my T, so I know it is my relationship with her that has improved my emotional intimacy with my husband. And as AG said before, emotional intimacy can really be a turn on for other things.

PL

Woodensoul,
Thank you so much for being concerned about me, I know how scary it can be to point something like that out to someone and I appreciate that you took the chance for me. I know that many people, including a lot of therapists believe that you should not individually work with someone, you also see for marital counseling. We kind of backed up into this situation and its working well for us, but the reason that it is has been the fact that my husband, T and I have been very open about how we all feel about it and what the possible problems are. And my T has been doing this for 30 years and is a really gifted therapist, he's got a very grip on what he can deal with.

My husband actually saw my T for individual therapy for a few years and when we started having problems, we decided to see his therapist because my husband trusted him (which doesn't come easily to either of us) and I had met him a few times and felt comfortable working with him. At the time I was still working individually with my first therapist. About 8 months after starting the marital counseling, my first T retired. At that time I brought up coming to see my present T on an individual basis in a couples session. My husband essentially said he was very uncomfortable about the idea (a very reasonable reaction I thought) and my T thought it wasn't a good idea. So I decided to see how I did without individual counseling for awhile. While working with our T on our marriage I developed an attraction to him, which I ignored for a while, but eventually it got to the point that it was driving me nuts. After tracking down some info on transference and erotic attachment, I decided to tell my T so I told my husband that I wanted to go in alone, and I went to my T and told him how I feel. As soon as I told him how I felt about him and got a wonderful accepting response, a lot of stuff started coming up. Its kind of complex, because my "run away you're getting too close" response, that I was totally NOT aware of kicked in, but eventually my husband, T and I all talked again and my husband felt a lot more comfortable with me seeing my T individually because our marriage was in much better shape by then so there was less chance someone would have to get the T in a divorce. Although actually one thing we did agree to was that if things went south, my husband got him. Provided even more motivation to work on my marriage. And my T sees my work as being part of the marital therapy, more on that below. So I definitely agree that this could be an extremely problematic situation, but I think we're all handling it well, and I've made a phenominal amount of progress working with my T. Again, though, thanks for asking.

quote:

If your T wasn't around, would you be able to go towards your husband more easily? Or is your relationship with your T helping you be able to move closer to your husband?

OW,
You are one smart hombre! Actually what you said is the exact reason my T agreed to work with me individually. When he recognized that I had attachment issues, he also realized that they were directly connected to the problems I was having in my marriage. My husband and I would move closer, but then that would scare us, so we do something, even fight, so we could move back and feel safer. And our relational patterns were reinforcing some painful patterns from our childhoods. So in couples counseling my T has worked with us to sort those out and become conscious of what we were doing and how we were reacting so we could change it. And he started working with me to resolve the attachment issues so i could actually have a close relationship. He once told me that it was really good that I realized I needed a relationship to have a relationship.

It's very true, as my relationship has grown with my T, I've learned that moving closer can be a good thing, so I've learned to move closer to my husband.

Actually I didn't need to write that last bit, you can just read PL's comments above.

AG

Hi AG,

How are you feeling today? I have to say that you are brave. The way you are facing these issues so boldly is a real inspiration. I know how difficult it is to admit to your T that you are attracted to them. I have done that in the past and I always felt that I had to brace myself for what was to come. So far I have never had a T abuse that knowledge. Anyway I am glad that you saw that my inquiry was out of concern for you. I can only imagine how you felt during that session with the longest blush on earth! For me I have a hard time fighting feelings of humiliation etc. My pride gets in the way of therapy sometimes. BUt I see you really laying it out and learning to trust. IN that sense you are so brave. I need to do that more.

I have been reading these books that are helping me with opening up not only to my T but to myself as well. Can we recommend books here?

Anyway it's called "The places that Scare you" by Pema Chodron. She is a buddhist nun who is amazing in the sense that she brings these concepts across in such an understandable way. Her books are easy to read compared to most other buddhist literature out there. She guides you on how to love yourself.