Yeah, I know, but I've felt it myself so many times...maybe I recognized the signs....

UV, I just wanted to say, that I really relate to what you are going through. and I'm not sure if it gets better, for me it's been over a year of therapy and no sign of the attachment feelings dissappearing, however, they do become for tolerable in time, for me. I realte to the sense of feeling their is nothing you can do but accept these feelings, and that in some sense they are agony...and when T meets you there and is accepting of your feelings, yes, it is blissful. I remembered one session, where I hardly talked at all, (my first time seeing him, as we had phone counseling only, then move to session by video conference) It was so strage...seeing his face just pulled me into a blissful kind of joy, that I have never, ever felt that happy and joyful in my entire life. Ver, very strane, and stranger, for me, that I remember it...somthing is going on here that is real, very, very real, and that one session made it ultimately clear to me...that he could accept me even when I was happy, but could not speak!

SO, UV, I think it is hard, because we keep hoping to reenter that blissful state, that T's sometimes seem to mysteriously, bring about... and the hope of experiencing it again, but not, maybe, is painful in the extreme at times. Agaony, even, a longing very deep. I tend to think of this in spiritual terms, so I would say it is the longing for God that we are feeling in that state. But I'm not sure about what is going on, here...something very important I think. And it is so good, you have a T who can look at that honestly with you. I think it has to do with needs that were never met, and those longings, maybe very young longings, getting triggered by a situation where we are genuinely accepted and nurtured.

What do you think?

BB

Hi BB,
I can understand where you're struggling. One thing I will say that your description made me think of is just how many times my T has told me he wasn't as good at a lot of this stuff (especially the non-defensiveness) earlier in his career. He's been practicing for 32 years. You didn't really mention your Ts age. I'm wondering if he's working on doing the right thing but just lacks experience? In that case, the fact that when you confront him with his behavior, he takes responsibility for it is a really good sign. You have to weigh that and your attachment to him against what the disruptions and mis-steps are costing you and decide if it's worth it. I will tell you though if you stay, his later patients will owe you a debt of gratitude. I know I am REALLY grateful to the clients that my T learned from. Sorry this wasn't more definitive, it's a tough call to make for someone else.

AG

Sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot like that...but your reply was really helpful...I hadn't thought about that, actually weighing the disruptions against the good stuff and thinking it through logically. I just kind of thought I almost had no choice but to go with my emotions! I'm not sure I could leave even if I decided logically I am getting less out of it than I should. It's confusing because my T is old, and very, very experienced. If he wasn't, than some of his (as I expereince it) defensiveness, or "mistakes" (dare I say it?)would make more sense. For example, he workds very hard at getting me to ask him for what I need, and then when I do, he sometimes forgets about me. I know he is very busy, but still...I think he has over 30 years experience. He won't be pinned down to any method, his approach is very individual, his own thing and tailored to the individual client, say he, and he even said I won't find anything like it out there, when I was really questioning his care at one point. I know you can't answer the question for me, but just rambling a bit on about it, yet again. Overall, I really think he's great, but, man, when he hurts, he hurts badly, I have to say. He just seems to pick the ONE thing that will hurt most, and then does/says THAT. How many times should I keep saying, "ouch that hurt" before I start to feel stupid? I think I am just easily, easily hurt. I should say that things have been very much less hurtful than they used to be lately, he seems to have picked up on something or other and is treating me differently somehow, so hopefully, all of this will just become unpleasant memory and I will continue to grow towards where I need to be with his guidance!

Ok, thanks for your reply, AG. I sign off now!

((((AG)))

BB

UV, where are you? I promise to let you and SG get back at your conversation now! sorry!

Hi UV,

Your last post was so kind, and really helped snap me out of the urge to delete my post...so thank you...but this thread seems to have totally veered off the topic you started! How are the impulses going? Maybe our getting off the thread topic is serving as a distraction, in any case. When is your next session with your T? I'd like to hear how it goes. And again, I'm really glad you have a T who is working through this with you.

It was strange to hear that you had to stop reading my story because the way it was handled bothered you so much...even made you feel sick. Wow. I am sorry that it upset you that much...but I also have to say thank you for telling me that. I was feeling really sad and upset again after posting about it, in two ways...just feeling the emotions again was one, and then later, upset with myself for forgetting that it really wasn't my fault. So getting your perspective really helped snap me out of that. Thank you.

The projective identification idea is interesting. I never thought of him picking up on my fear and making it his own, so to speak. I do think sometimes he projected things on to me...the time limit issue, for example. I think he felt guilty for coming out early to get me in the beginning, and realized he shouldn't be doing that...but then somewhere along the line he turned it into, I must be coming early to try to manipulate him into getting more time. Which I know wasn't the case at all, but it explains why he was so resistant to my trying to bring it up and explain it later on.

And yes I totally agree with it being so incredibly important to be direct. When they told me I was getting switched to another T, aside from how it was done, in a way I felt relieved, because part of me knew he really did not want me for a patient anymore. But I was expecting to be told that he had reached his own limitations, and I had decided I was okay with that. I certainly did not expect him to act the way he acted in that transfer session, and to be told it was my feelings that got in the way of the therapy. That just hurt all over again because somewhere I knew that was a lie and a cover up. But no way to prove it or resolve anything. Yuck.

And I think you are right about the T's attachment style being a factor here. What is so ironic is that all my reading started with a book he recommended to me at our first session, Addicted to Love by Susan Peabody. When I came back next time and told him how much it spoke to exactly why I was there, he said he'd never even read the book. But there were several times I thought, this career would be the perfect "hiding place" for the "seductive withholder" variety of love addict (by the way, the book explains that "love addicts" are simply people with attachment injuries, and the different varieties or combination of symptoms depends on the kinds of injuries received, and the person's inherent personality traits). But now I'm getting really cheeky about this, diagnosing my own ex-T...so I will stop here.

Again thank you for everything you said, UV...this has really helped ME. Now, whose thread was this again? Please let us know how things go regarding your impulses, and how your T helps you through this. I look forward to getting to know you better.

Take care,
SG

UV- i am running out the door. i can relate to how you are feeling. like others, i also do not know the answers. however, ive been in this state. and what has helped me when i cannot find an answer is to distract myself from the feeling.
exercise or meditate and do stuff that allows me to be physical so i can keep out of my head. sometimes, when i put something down for a bit and come back to it, i have a clearer perspective.

perhaps not an analytical solution but a worthwhile one, none the less.

enjoy the day.

rock

UV I’m sorry I have no experience of feelings for a T so am at a loss to say anything useful or helpful about your situation. BUT some of the things you said in your posts have got me curious and I’m wondering if you couldn’t explain something for me?

You used the term ‘projective identification’ - something I’ve come across recently in reading and also had my ex-T claim that it happened between us once (he then admitted actually HE was the one feeling the feeling not me the one ‘projecting’ it). Like you initially, I don’t get it at all, how is it possible for someone else to actually feel something all by themselves that apparently is something I am feeling and in some magical mysterious way am ‘making’ the other feel? How can someone claim to be feeling something, but that it’s not their feeling, that actually it’s mine? I can’t get my head around that one, and wondered whether you had any insights into this that would help me understand it? Sorry not being very supportive here, I do want you to know I’m reading your posts and sending you good thoughts.

LL

SG I’m glad you can bear to keep your post up - apart from anything else it’s such an honest and clear account of something that I guarantee lots of others can relate to, so consider it as one of those posts whose value resides in what others get from it (me for one ).

I've been trying to catch up on posts today and as there's quite a lot I wanted to say in response to your post, I'm going to leave it till I can concentrate better - hope you're doing ok in the meantime!

LL

UV, I think it's great that you are feeling this way about your T. Even if it gets annoying and frustrating that's the way to go. I think the impulses come from the child part of you. Isn't it that children act on impulses and emotions? Did you tell him about these impulses? I guess it's his task to make sure you will not get hurt by trying to act out these impulses. They must be a good thing, a part of you emerging from the unconscious. And it's his job to keep you safe, which it's sounds he is very much capable of. I think he should be able to help you with these impulses and maintain safe boundaries. Well, as usuall, the best way to deal with it (but not the easiest one) in therapy is to tell your T how you feel. I'm curious what did you T said about the impulses?
I think when I was in similar state, I sometimes felt I just would like to grab him and cuddle him. I know it was the child who wanted this. It did not happen often, but sometimes, when the child-me would gather enough courage to tell him about some feelings I had, he would lean forward in his chair, look at me straight and listen really attentatively, I would feel so happy about him being so present and accepting and if I could, I would reach for him and just put my arms around him and hold him closely.

quote:

One other noticable thing-after falling in love with him, I have not once felt the self-worth issues-despair, self-loathing.

I remember almost the exact same thing. It just happened all of a sudden, that the "judging eye" just disappeared, and suddenly I felt so strong and confident as never before. That was great. I could hardly think about anything else except my T, but I felt as I wasn't afraid of anything (in the outside world). I started to feel much more contained within myself, as never before. The child in me was safe and taken care of. I don't feel this way as much now. It kind of diminished, but it's not because I stopped loving my T. I think we are going into the deeper waters, so I'm feeling a bit less secure within myself now.

UV, I just read about your session. Well, sometimes it feels like we don't connect that much, but still we do get some important things said. So maybe it was not at all so unproductive. I had similar impulse to text him once, after I've heard that a friend who is also in therapy texted her T. So I wondered if I could do it too, but I was too scared that I would invade my T's privacy. It really was scary to text him, it was a test for both me and him. For me - if I can break through some of my fear of rejection and for him, if I can trust him that I won't be rejected. I think you may be in a similar spot now. Well, we worked that through, and I'm sure you will too. Your T reminds me a bit of mine, what he says and how he react. Or perhaps you and me build up similar defenses within ourselves. I certainly can relate to quite a lot you said about your relationship with your T.

The mother... I don't hate my mother, but I want to get away from her. When I talk to her (on the phone, not too often) I feel like my mind is narrowing down, like I'm contracting, there is less of me, I'm loosing touch with who I am in order to be able t relate to her. It does not have anything to do with intelectual gap between us, but there is a gap on some other level. Eventually I'm getting pissed off that I hve to shut down a lot of myself to be able to relate to her for a couple of minutes. I don't have to do that with my T. I can expand with him, but I shrink down with her. WTF?? Anyway, nevermind. Just something you wrote about your mother, brought back some of my annoyance at my mother.

Hey there UV thanks so much for explaining about PI. Have to confess I still can’t get my head around it but as you say (and I’ve read myself) psych literature is full of the term so it must be real (lol).

But I’m going to try and pin it down some more, with your help if you don’t mind (I have a bad tendency to need to understand everything, figuring that if I can get an intellectual handle on a concept, then I can fit my own experience to it and that makes me feel a bit safer!)

I get how someone can feel something in response to something going on in us of which we ourselves may not be aware (example: smiling being nice feeling warm and friendly towards someone saying nice friendly things but at the same time underneath feeling really anxious, scared, defensive, and the other subconsciously picks up on that anxiety and gets at least confused about the messages I am sending, if not actively responding to the anxiety either by feeling anxious/threatened themselves, or (more likely) getting angry as a defence, wanting to pull away.)

I can also understand projection itself, particularly in a paranoid context - for example being extremely angry but having to repress it - therefore being totally unaware of that rage - and as a result experiencing people being judgemental, angry, punishing etc (projecting onto them one’s own rage - although I’d add a caveat there and say that it’s not MY anger I’m experiencing in them, but rather my FEAR of the terrible consequences of owning my anger that makes me see them as hostile and judgemental and punishing.)

On the other hand, your example of feeling disgust around your mother - it being a feeling you can’t work out where it comes from, does make sense. That you can be around someone and can suddenly start feeling something for no apparent reason which is the result of subconsciously picking up on that feeling in the other, a feeling which is somehow influencing how they are (with your mother for instance, if she is in the grip of self-disgust - unaware of it - and that is subtley influencing her behaviour, words, gestures, expression, general body language all of which convey an ‘aura’ which would inspire disgust in someone else - then yes, maybe it does make sense after all. Hm. Got me thinking now - I’ve spent my entire life taking ‘responsibility’ for everything I feel - assuming that whatever I feel is caused by something in me - now I’m wondering if it’s possible to look at how I feel around some people and maybe consider that I’m actually picking up on how THEIR feelings are manifesting themselves in their behaviour etc and unconsciously reacting to it. ie that you don’t really feel that she’s disgusting, but that because her feeling of self disgust is effectively making her present herself in some way as disgusting so you are almost obliged to feel it. Hm sorry just musing aloud I think I sort of understand it.

What I can’t quite grasp is how my unacknowledged/unaware feeling (eg anger or fear) can somehow manifest itself in another without their having a major input into how they respond.

Hmm maybe in that case, the fact that I am angry but unaware of it - but in some way or another that anger is nevertheless influencing my behaviour/words/expressions which end up somehow ‘making’ the other feel anger as a response to me? Hmm again, but that’s still THEIR feeling, they are responding with anger because something I’m doing/saying is basically pissing them off. The only way I can see PI working is in the subject himself - ie I am projecting my anger onto someone and I then experience that person as feeling angry. Gah I still can’t get it properly!

It’s all a bit of a minefield isn’t it, because at what point can you say for certain - oh I’m not really feeling this feeling, it’s not mine, it’s the other person’s feeling that I am experiencing. Could make it very easy for a T (or anyone for that matter) to disown their own feelings and effectively ‘blame’ the client for ‘making’ them feel that way.

Oh as for not having feelings for a T - I don’t know I just haven’t met a T who inspires good thoughts or feelings in me about him/her - I don’t count the single session I had with a potential new T where I came away thinking I liked her, only to have her subsequently transform into a really negative person (she terminated me in the third session!) On the other hand I have LOTS of negative feelings about most of the Ts I’ve seen.

Having said that I recently met a new T whom I did really like straight away and continued to like her for the next two sessions. And after the fourth session (where I suddenly decided, totally irrationally, that she’s actually not such a great kind caring wonderful T as I’d thought) I’m beginning to suspect that I’ve just encountered the demon of positive transference, for the first time in my long and chequered history of relationships with Ts. It (as well as a whole lot of other stuff to do with Ts and trying to get back into therapy) has thrown me for a real loop and I’m only now getting back to a rational frame of mind enough to start thinking it through. Will doubtless be posting about it soon.

UV you’re going through so much at the moment - I so hope your Pdoc can guide you through all the stuff that’s rising up and threatening you. If you can bear to, keep posting here, what you say about things is so interesting and helpful.

LL

SG finally I have had some time to properly reply to your post!

quote:

So she essentially abandoned us...and yes she has never admitted her part in any of it, not to any meaningful extent (unless it's to worm her way back in so she can eventually use me again) so yes, in my case those connections could definitely be there.

Mothers! My mother cleared off when I was three - and though I’ve kept in close touch with her over the years since then, she has never properly acknowledged the damage she’s done - in fact she plays a wonderfully manipulative game of mea culpa, bewailing how guilty she felt/feels about it that is designed exclusively to deflect blame, anger or censure from others (the ‘look I’M suffering so much from all this guilt, how could anyone be so heartless as to heap more coals on MY suffering by not sympathizing with how hard it is for ME’ tactic...ack ack ack)

Closure in this sense, which I suspect is what you wanted both from ex-bf and ex-T, is for her to actually come straight out and say SORRY, I hurt you, I acknowledge that hurt and can see exactly how it would have made you feel. Protestations of feeling guilty just don’t cut it - not without a genuine recognition of the harm inflicted.

And like UV, I often get a strange sense of real malevolence from my mother - as if a curtain shifts and suddenly there’s this malign presence showing itself briefly behind the smiles and the nice words. And SG like yours, my mother is a past master at using people - she’s not so open as to get caught out doing it, it’s all very manipulative and subtle gah gah gah I’ve been telling myself to put up a thread about mothers maybe I’ll do that soon otherwise this one could get outrageously long (and end up totally off topic!)

Anyway.

Aaarrrgghh! That whole episode with your T interpreting your arriving early at the clinic solely in order to manipulate him into giving you extra time - SG I feel impotent rage in me reading about that I know that situation so well - having shitty game playing ‘I’m going to get for me’ motives attributed to me when there was nothing of the sort going on. And to neither be believed nor even heard when I try to explain that that’s NOT my motive.

To me that says really clearly that your T was an a***hole (sorry I don’t mean to put you down for your feelings towards him, it’s just such a dirty little power game he was playing) - the arrogance of the man to attribute motives and base ones at that, a) to cover up his own failing in keeping to boundaries - whatever the reason and b) to deliberately impute some kind of manipulative little girl game playing to you without either hearing your explanation or crediting you with telling the truth. Grr everything I’ve read about him makes me want to take him by the throat and rub his face in his own inadequacies and arrogance.

quote:

I tried to bring up the attachment stuff so many times but was told I was getting confused and not understanding what I was reading, they would not listen and kept dismissing me and would not let me talk. So, so frustrating and painful.

I felt crushed, like I had trusted so much and jumped off a building only to splatter all over the cement. For a long time I just felt literally broken, visceral shame, as if I were garbage to the core and had been thrown out. Especially right after the transfer session I would turn red and shake with these shame feelings,

(((( SG )))) I am totally unsurprised by this - it doesn’t matter how well you know your own motives, how innocent you actually were and how much of what you brought to the therapy with him was based on sound knowledge of what the therapy ought to be about - the fact that these people, your T and the others involved in transferring you, are supposed to be the professionals, and that trusting them to know more or less what they are doing, in YOUR best interests, is impossible to rationally set aside. So even though you can see and know that something was very terribly wrong with the way everything was handled, with their responses, with their refusal to hear you or even credit you with being a sane rational person - it comes down to one against the many, and that ‘one’ (you) being in an unequal position power wise to start off with, means that no matter what, you’re going to be made to experience it all as something ‘wrong’ with you, as its all being somehow your fault. It’s a testament to your strength and courage that you were able to work through all that crap he (and they) laid on you and come out with a burgeoning sense that actually it was HIS crap, not yours. Which doesn’t stop it hurting, and doesn’t stop the need for confirmation of that all the same.

For what it’s worth SG, the fact that this guy was CBT explains a lot (to me anyway!) - I have a growing suspicion that Ts who specialize or rely very much on the CBT approach have a bit of a power game going on - it must be so satisfying to the ego to have this array of techniques and methods and interpretations that you can impose on a client, and avoid any kind of real therapeutic work (ie closeness, actual involvement with a client) by being able to challenge everything a client says and thinks and believes, all in the name of ‘helping’. Must make them feel really superior and together and all knowing. Call me jaundiced (lol) but I think CBT helps the therapist more than the client. There that’s my rant about CBT with sincere apologies to anyone who finds CBT helpful.

About redirecting impulses - and the diagram he drew of battleships, in retrospect it sounds like he was trying to tell you that YOU had to redirect them, that YOU had to somehow magically (CBT-wise) find a more ‘appropriate’ object for those impulses - rather than being an invitation to you to work through them with him. *Sigh* you gotta wonder how much damage therapists actually can do, and clients half the time don’t even realize it. Hypervigilance has its uses!

quote:

It was my perception that my former T (and the couples T at that clinic) seemed afraid of me, especially at the end, even though they never came right out and said it.

This comment actually says to me that you were on your own side! That you could detect fear and defensiveness in them tells me that you knew somewhere inside you that they had something to be afraid of, that you were effectively in the right and they were concerned to stop you showing up their failings. Small comfort, but a big plus in terms of your ability to hold emotionally to what you know to be right for you. Well done you!!!!

Ok I’m talking too much as usual and not sure that much of it is terribly relevant. I hope you do keep this post out here, there’s so much of value in it.

Hugs to you SG, you’ve been through a really really bad time with this and I’m so glad you’ve found a T who understands what you need. Also want to send you hugs and support for what you're going through with H at the moment (read in another thread) - hang in there, it's July now, not too long till the couples therapy soon (((( SG ))))

LL

Thanks for your post, LL...and I read in another thread you mentioned seeing that T for a fourth time, and now not so sure about her...I hope to see an update soon. Hugs to you {{{{{{{{LL}}}}}}}}

Oh yes you were spot on with the dodgy mea culpa games played by moms. Really that's just all about them too. Still not thinking of us and how it was for us. It is probably unconscious on their part...but still...leaves us feeling guilty instead of resolved. But at least we are learning better...

And what is it with that malevolent feeling? I get that from my mom too, in fact I'll do anything to avoid it because it's so terribly toxic and frightening. This is why I avoid conflict with her because that's when it comes out. It's just horrid. Some kind of competition, maybe? Bleah...don't want to think about it, I start getting shaky just imagining it.

Thanks for what you said about my experiences at that clinic...I'm so glad I'm not there anymore...and what you said is totally relevant and helpful, especially when I start to lapse back into thinking it must have been my fault, I really did screw up the therapy, I must be intrinsically bad or wrong or defective or whatever...it helps pull me back out of that.

(((((LL)))))

SG