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{{{{{{ultraviolet}}}}}}

Hi UV! Sounds like you are doing some very intense and important work in your therapy. It is so good to hear that you've been able to tell your T about all of your feelings so far, and especially good that he's hearing you and being totally accepting about where you are at. I had all the same thoughts, feelings, and impulses with my former T that you do with your T. But unfortunately I can't tell you "what happens" because my former T was apparently very uncomfortable hearing about it. He had used a new analogy to describe what we were doing in the therapy and I thought it meant it was safe to discuss those impulses because we were going to "redirect" them...but then apparently something got misunderstood and I was abruptly transferred. But it sounds like your T is responding in a much better way...I think I would have been in the same place you are if my T had responded like yours. Your description really resonated with me, I never thought about it as "impulses" before but that is a really good way to describe it. So at least I can share how it felt to let you know you're not alone...I hope that helps a little.

Like you, one of the ways I dealt with the feelings was to read all I could find on the internet about what goes on in therapy, especially about transference. Maybe it was "compulsive" like you said...I remember feeling really guilty or ashamed of it at first, like I was going behind his back or reading something I wasn't "supposed" to...every time I picked up Deborah Lott's book In Session, I felt like I was looking at something "forbidden" - and it didn't help that the other part of the title was The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists, or that the cover was illustrated with the therapy door slightly ajar and the light shining out, as if something terribly intimate was going on in there...here is what it looks like:



I actually hid the book under some other things...it's kind of funny to think about that now. That was early on...later I did have impulses like you describe, the strong longings (some of it intensely sexual, some of it more paternal), wanting to act out with calling. Being near him was rather like torture, especially those last few sessions, with wanting to hug or touch him. And his office was rather small so the closeness was distracting and disturbing. I remember being very glad on more than one occasion that arousal doesn't "show" on women like it does on men. I remember one time handing him a picture and accidentally touched his finger, and almost apologized for it. I always felt extremely tense in sessions and always sat very still. Maybe hoping he wouldn't notice?

And like you, I also noticed an abrupt change in how I was feeling, as soon as I got attached to him (which was almost immediately) - I was no longer obsessing about the old BF. I thought of it as "passing the torch". I remember my former T asking once how I was doing with the thoughts of the old BF and with the depressive thoughts, and I said good, not having them much at all anymore...but then on the heels of that, was the thought "because now I'm thinking about you" but he didn't ask right then and I didn't volunteer...it was still early on...but I told him later. He did say a couple of times that he wanted his name on the pedestal I had drawn for the ex-BF...and he did say he would be my "transitional object"...so I thought I was right on track.

The difference between my situation and yours is that your T is allowing you to talk about these things...my former T reacted kind of funny when I first told him, like he was afraid to let me talk about it, so he did a 180 and shut me down. Then he kept trying to get me to talk about it again, but then I was so afraid that talking about them would get me transferred, that I never got to the point of having to worry about acting out on them. But if I had, then I would have talked to him about that, too. I would have kept talking, talking, talking about those feelings and worries and concerns to see what it meant about me. And I wouldn't have been surprised if it would have had something to do with "dependency"...more likely it had to do with attachment issues.

I'm not sure from your post if you have already told your T about the impulses, how you don't know how much longer you can fight yourself to prevent yourself from acting out/calling him. You said you have no problems telling him all of this - so that is what I would encourage you to do. Keep talking to him about it until you get to the bottom of where it is coming from. Easier said than done, I know. Good luck, and please keep us posted on how it is going.

Hugs,
SG

I can't answer any of your questions, UV, but I can completely empathize with what you're going through. So much of what you and SG described is familiar to me. The first time I quit therapy with my (now ex) P, it was a few weeks after I told him I have a "crush" on him, and I quit almost entirely because I was afraid of how "impulsive" I was feeling. I am not naturally an impulsive person, and not the kind to "make passes", but I honestly and truly was worried that I would try to kiss him or something!

Instead I quit therapy for a few months, googled him obsessively all summer, stared at his photo on facebook , and fished for gossip about him from a mutual acquaintance. (Bad idea, btw.)

Does it get worse? I guess I can answer that: yes. And then eventually it gets better... right?? That's what I've been told, anyway. Hang in there. Sounds like you have a great T.

UV... thank you for your post as it was thought provoking for me and I recognize a lot of myself in your descriptions. I, too, have done a ton of reading and research and because my T had no experience with my issues, I pretty much diagnosed myself with the help of talking to others who feel the same way. Since then my T has worked hard to come up to speed on my dx and we have grown together through this.

It sounds to me like you are describing "complex" PTSD and not the one-time trauma PTSD which is discussed more in depth in the DSM IV and that most Ts are more familiar with. The thing with complex PTSD is that it may mimic borderline personality disorder in certain ways and I believe that some people get the wrong diagnosis. PTSD is Axis I not Axis II. And most times PTSD comes along with abuse issues, attachment injury and the dreaded transference feelings. My attachment fits into the disorganized category where I am alternatively clinging to my T while trying to find any number of reasons to run like heck from him. I have attached strongly to him and at first this did scare him until he decided it was an attachment injury which made it more acceptable and less scary. I also need constant reassurance and at first he was wary of this due to fear of my becoming too dependent on him. Most Ts consider dependency a bad thing but in the case of PTSD/attachment injury it is quite necessary to the healing process. You first must learn to depend before you can become interdependent. I find that the more my T reassures me the less I need it.

Have you read Wallin's book Attachment in Psychotherapy? I found that very helpful and anything written by John Briere, who is a well-respected trauma therapist and researcher has really clarified a lot of this for me. There are some youtube videos on John Briere out there. He is a very engaging and captivating speaker.

Thanks for your thoughts UV, it sound like you are on the right, although difficult path to healing.

TN

Hi UV,

Sorry but this has turned out to be way long...you had said you wanted to know more about what happened with the former T, so here are the links to the threads that I started during that time (if you feel like you need some late-night reading LOL):

Long rant - very confused

Waiting...

Keep "punching"

To answer your questions:

quote:

Do you both relate to PTSD? I think the disorganized attachment pattern is similar to PTSD.

I've never been diagnosed with PTSD. And at one time I read through the symptoms but never had the feeling of "that's it!". Not even sure I have disorganized attachment. I do know that my former T seemed afraid of me after the first few sessions (?), but after I'd done a lot of reading about therapy I concluded that (hopefully) it must be "negative" transference. When I told him of my perceptions/assumptions, that he wished he could get rid of me or was just putting up with me, regretted setting things up this way, etc., and that I thought it must be negative transference, he didn't say anything to correct my perceptions...but he did become much warmer and friendlier over the next several sessions. Which scared me, because then I wasn't sure if my perceptions were correct, and he was now covering it up, or if he realized he was covering up too much with professional distance and had decided to open up a little more. I do remember him mentioning once, there were a few patients where he dreaded seeing their name on his schedule, but then he said "but you're not one of those" with a little smile on his face. That should have made me feel better, right? But actually it made me uneasy...because would he really tell me if I was?

quote:

I really think what scares them off-either directly or indirectly-is the mixture of these 3 traits: OCD anxiety (obsessing/renumerating/ impulses), dependency (clingyness), and mild paranoia (referred to as hypervigilance in PTSD). I think it's that mixture. Those 3 traits presented seperately, does not concern them--but having that cluster scares them off.

I am hoping you can tell me, why do those three particular traits in combination scare therapists off? What are they afraid of? It was my perception that my former T (and the couples T at that clinic) seemed afraid of me, especially at the end, even though they never came right out and said it. And even though I would agree that I have those three traits to a greater or lesser degree (see below), overall I do not see how as a whole I am "scary" or a burden. Yet they certainly reacted that way, so I "must" be.

quote:

What feeds preoccupation especially, at least in my experience, is that lack of closure...when a person does not admit their part in the harm-which could be a T or bf or parent. Also, the betrayal of the mother, in particular-do you find that to be true with either of you?

Yes, yes, yes...I said this numerous times, what I wanted so badly and was hoping to get was blessed closure regarding the old BF. I had run into him again several times, which at first seemed coincidental but then remembering our old patterns seemed as if he was trying to initiate some sort of contact again, although in a very indirect way (too many details to go into here). But I was willing to accept no contact with him which was probably best in any case...I just wanted (want) closure, resolution, I want peace about this. And yes my mother was very emotionally lacking and unavailable always, as far as I can remember I never bonded with her at all, the strongest emotion I have toward her is great fear of my anger at her. And the strongest emotion she ever had toward me was irritation and even jealousy at times. First she was alcoholic and then when she got sober when I was twelve she left us in the care of our father so she could go live with my ex-BF's father. So she essentially abandoned us...and yes she has never admitted her part in any of it, not to any meaningful extent (unless it's to worm her way back in so she can eventually use me again) so yes, in my case those connections could definitely be there.

As for the three "horsemen" you mentioned:

Obsessing and remunerating: I was going to therapy to try to get over an old BF I'd been obsessing about again - fantasizing, longing after, writing "letters" to him I was never going to send, as a sort of journal trying to work it out myself. And I was very open about that, because that's why I was in therapy. Instead of acting out on it and chasing after the old BF, which I would actually NEVER do (why would I want to reinforce that he doesn't want me in his life? I've already had enough messages to that effect, thank you very much) I was trying to find out what the problem was in me, and fix it. There were a couple of times my former T responded to the thoughts I'd shared with comments like wow, you're really a private obsessor. And the couples T called it obsessing too. And they both said it like it was a bad thing. And my response was, yeah, I know...what I want to find out is WHY am I doing this?

Dependency: My former T also said he thought I had some traits of dependency disorder, or the "clinginess" you mentioned. He did throw out the term "needy" once, too, which kind of irritated me. I have the most trouble identifying with that one because I try so hard NOT to need others, including him. I worked very hard on therapy, outside of therapy, so I wouldn't be depending on him to "fix" me or do it for me. I only had one session a week, never called or wrote or even asked for contact outside of sessions. The only call I made once was to leave a message once to explain why I made the appointments I had (both our schedules were really tight), and the only outside contact I made was to send a note to tell him about my feelings...which he had been trying to get me to talk about, and we had agreed we were going to talk about, four months previously. And the whole point of the note was to get it on the table for the next session because I was having trouble bringing it up when I was right there in the room. And he knew that. I must have repeated that several times but was not listened to.

Another thing about the clinginess. My former T misinterpreted my arriving at the clinic early, despite my trying to correct it. I like some extra time when I arrive somewhere - I don't know why, that's just the way I like it. Arriving "just in time" makes me feel rushed so I like some transition time. The first few sessions, he came out early to get me. Which did not set a precedent with me in any way, I did not come to expect that - I just thought, he must not have anyone before me and must get bored. But then the third session he pointed out that we were starting early, but we were going to end early, because of boundaries...and seemed agitated and annoyed with me...but he didn't explain anything, just plowed on through the session with me feeling very hurt and confused. Not because I wasn't going to get extra time, because like I said I had not come to expect that whatsoever - but because he was acting so mean, like I was a pain in the butt patient and he was barely tolerating my being there. Later I read In Session and found out about the therapeutic boundaries and the importance of always starting and ending on time, and thought oh, that's what he's so worried about...he must be assuming that I'm trying to take advantage of his time because maybe other patients have done that. So then I started arriving "just in time" so he wouldn't feel pressured. I would wait in the car if I was a little early, or ask the receptionist not to page him right away. Later he made the comment, I notice you're not coming early anymore...because you know I'm not going to give you any extra time, right? That really ticked me off but I didn't say anything right away. Later I tried to explain all of this to him, but he basically refused to believe me.

Also on a few occasions I asked if it would be okay to ask for an extra session or call if I needed to, in case I was in the middle of a really dark place like the ones I had described to him, so that he could get a better idea of how I was feeling right then...and both times he said of course, I don't ever need to worry about that, we are a team, he knows I know how to respect the boundaries, and if I bump into one he'll "help" me. He was very, very clear about this, which made me feel relieved and finally safe enough to try it...and that's when it all fell apart. So again, another contradiction I just can't figure out what I did wrong. He knew the note I sent was written within the context of the therapy. He knew that, I know he did. So why did he get rid of me.

Anyway if you could explain more about what therapists see as clingy or needy behavior, I'd appreciate it. I just can't seem to identify that one in myself, other than the fact that I'm "depending" on them, temporarily, to help me see those things I can't see in myself. And if I'm not "supposed" to do that, then what am I there for?

Mild paranoia/hypervigilance: Yes, I would admit to this one. When I'm attached, I analyze every little thing to try and make sense of it.

quote:

I read intense early attachments are a warning sign for Ts for people with personality disorders. I almost had a complete breakdown when this T terminated me-he handled it so poorly. And he never got the context as to why I became attached so soon. There is a lot of good reason behind it..he never asked or addressed it after I revealed the feelings.

Warning sign? Why? Warning sign for what purpose, what is the danger? I do not understand that. My T said he had helped two other women through transference feelings, and he would help me through it too...but I don't think he really knew how, and I never got a clear idea how he "helped" the other two. I was assuming the things I was reading about, but maybe he meant they just discussed it once or twice and that was the end of it. Certainly not the kind of thing I was reading. And I'm so sorry for what you went through in the termination - breakdown is a really good word for it, mine was handled so poorly too. When I went to talk to our couples T (at my former T's suggestion) about what I thought was a misunderstanding between my T and I, she appeared confused and said no one at that clinic was trained to do psychoanalysis-based therapy, that my T was cognitive behavioral, and if I developed feelings like this for him, then it means something went wrong in the therapy and I needed to be transferred. When I told her he'd known about my feelings for over four months and we'd been trying to work through them, she gave me a funny look, so I spent the rest of the session telling her some of the details of what was said. By the end she said it sounded like something had gone weird in the therapy, that she would run everything by her review team and get back to me. But nothing was ever explained any further except to say we had gone as far as we could, that I would be in good hands with the new T they were giving me to. I was only given half an hour with my T, with the other new T in the room, to process the termination. It was awful, but...well you can read about that in the links I gave you, if you want. I tried to bring up the attachment stuff so many times but was told I was getting confused and not understanding what I was reading, they would not listen and kept dismissing me and would not let me talk. So, so frustrating and painful.

quote:

how long did you see T before he terminated you? How long has it been since then, SG?

I saw that T weekly for eight months. It ended at the end of August last year. And I've been seeing another T since October.

quote:

It was gut-wrenching pain and I had hallucinations..was it that bad for you?

I felt crushed, like I had trusted so much and jumped off a building only to splatter all over the cement. For a long time I just felt literally broken, visceral shame, as if I were garbage to the core and had been thrown out. Especially right after the transfer session I would turn red and shake with these shame feelings, but thankfully I did not have hallucinations. I am so sorry for your experience of that, how awful for you.

quote:

But you know, I didn't develop the attachment right away with my current T; and the transference is not as intense as with the other T...which I believe comes from T adjusting how he works.

I am REALLY glad to hear you found a T who gets it and will work with you. Your experience confirms what I've read, that someone with attachment injuries becomes more anxious when they are feeling threatened with abandonment...but if they are allowed to feel safe, that they will not be abandoned, the anxiety lessens and they can heal. I'm really happy for you that you found this T and I hope it continues to go so well for you.

quote:

SG-do you tell everything, as far as transference/present/relational feelings. to your current T?

Well I don't have those kinds of feelings with her at all...but if I did, I could. I have told her about the feelings I had about the former T and still do when they come up.

quote:

You mentioned your last T wanted to 'redirect' the impulses-that does not sound psychoanalytic/psychodynamic at all... (?) but I sense the object relations background. That's odd about redirecting, maybe not odd, but suprising?-I couldn't imagine my T discussing redirecting impulses!

This was toward the end. I had been struggling with telling him about all the transference stuff. Had it on a list, but was obviously holding back on some of the more personal (sexual) stuff. He had transferred the couples therapy to another T, because he felt that my husband might be too uncomfortable to come back to couples therapy with him given all the time I had spent in individual therapy with him. He had also discussed my case with his review team, particularly the transference feelings, and said if the tranference became an obstacle to my therapy goals, instead of a vehicle to them, then he would have to transfer me. Which felt like a threat of abandonment to me and was keeping me stuck, I believe - I knew, and he knew I knew, he couldn't gratify me, and I wasn't asking him to - but I really really did not want to be abandoned. And he knew that too, even said to me once, wow, you have a really big abandonment "button". Yeah. Then the session before the last one, he started out with telling me he had a "new" analogy for what we were doing. He said it was like the game Battleship and drew a game board up on his white board, with some of the ships going sideways and some up and down. He said the goal was to get the ones going sideways (the feelings for him, I assumed) turned so they were oriented toward my therapy goals. Earlier in the therapy we had agreed we would look at my feelings for him to see what they said about me, and he had said my feelings for the old BF were symbolic of something else - and I had read that my feelings for my T were symbolic, too - so it all seemed to fit, that turning the ships was the same thing as finding out where my feelings were really coming from, and not assuming they were really "about" my ex-BF OR my T. In other words it seemed as if with this analogy, he was finally telling me it was safe to talk about the feelings without worrying I would be terminated. So I sent him a note to tell him I'd been getting distracted by something he had worn three times in a row. I did ask him if it was possible for him not to wear it on the days I came in, but that was only a request. I said I knew we were going to have to talk about it and that was my real purpose in sending it, was to get that and all the other erotic transference stuff out on the table finally. I was so ready to talk when I got there...but he changed completely. Wasn't wearing what he'd worn before, but was really apparently ticked that I'd asked him not to wear that, said he couldn't change his clothes for me, what we really needed to work on was looking at me. And I said of course, that's what I wanted to do...but felt awful at the way he was acting. He said he didn't know what we were going to do about this and if we couldn't work through it, then I would have to be transferred. Instant abandonment trigger...so I said I thought we were supposed to look at this to see why I was feeling this way, that if we could get to the symbolism behind it then it wouldn't be a problem anymore. He said it could go either way, either get better or worse...so what were we going to do about it? I tried to read into the symbolism myself, saying maybe the white shirt symbolized the "white knight" I was looking for. But he didn't really help me with that at all. This totally stumped me, it was so contradictory, so I just started crying. Then he asked how many times had I written and re-written the note, and was there any symbolism in the red ink...and I remember thinking WTF?? He kept asking what are we going to do, I had no idea, I thought we were supposed to just talk about it, and he kept contradicting himself with saying he never said I couldn't talk about it, but then not letting me talk about it. Anyway it went on like that to the end of the session, and that was the last one.

quote:

What orientation does your current T primarily identify with? And I think I already asked you about your last Ts style (?)

Last T's style (I found out from the couples T) was CBT. Which explains the "feel, think, do" diagram he explained to me once out of the blue. Also explains his preoccupation in that last session with what are we going to "do" about this, and his repeatedly challenging my thoughts about things that really felt weird and unnecessary. I know now that was because I already had the think and do parts from other work I'd done...what I was wanting to do was go deeper to the underlying feelings, to try and make the think and do part more effective, if that makes any sense. So what I wanted to work on was the "feel" part of his diagram. But I really think he is very uncomfortable with that part. My current T describes herself as relational and psychodynamic...she says she is "all about the feelings".

Wow, this really dug up all that old pain...not sure if that's a good thing or not...maybe this wasn't as resolved as I've been thinking. Sorry for the length of this post, it really is a beast. I hope things go well with your discussing the impulses with your T, please let us know how it goes.

SG

Hi, UV, I don't know if we've met before, so I wanted to chime in and say hello. I'm reading the thread with interest, although much of it is way over my head (of I'm not connecting with it) I still would like to say a couple of things that really hit me.

quote:

And even though I would agree that I have those three traits to a greater or lesser degree (see below), overall I do not see how as a whole I am "scary" or a burden. Yet they certainly reacted that way, so I "must" be

SG, there is nothing "wrong" with you that should scare a T off, even if you have these 3 traits. I think that when UV is talking about warnings, and T's getting scared off, she is probably just saying that many T's do not have the tools that are neccessary to deal with this type of problem...however (as you are finding) many T's do. But I definitely think (from what I've learned on here) a CBT oriented therapist would feel threatened by their own inability to help you, most likely. I think many therapists probably "fear" clients that they do not have the tools or skills to help. It is no wrong in you or me...just some do, some don't. And maybe, some are willing to try to learn, but would have to become very humble to do so, and that is something that takes years of work on oneself. For a therapist to look at a client and say, "how can I change the way I generally operate and develop the skills to help you," means that person has a tremendous ability to look inside and see their own lacks and not be frightened away by the client shining a light on those lacks, but be willing to "not be God." So what if a therapist is secretly in the depths of his soul, only a therapist in order to feel like God, to be a "fixer" of problems and a "creator" of healing? Well, then someone like you, or I will inevitably end up in a very hurt place, should we have the misfortune to ask a person like that to help us find ourselves.

Hope you don't mind me chiming in here....

Peace,

BB

quote:

And maybe, some are willing to try to learn, but would have to become very humble to do so, and that is something that takes years of work on oneself. For a therapist to look at a client and say, "how can I change the way I generally operate and develop the skills to help you," means that person has a tremendous ability to look inside and see their own lacks and not be frightened away by the client shining a light on those lacks, but be willing to "not be God." So what if a therapist is secretly in the depths of his soul, only a therapist in order to feel like God, to be a "fixer" of problems and a "creator" of healing? Well, then someone like you, or I will inevitably end up in a very hurt place, should we have the misfortune to ask a person like that to help us find ourselves.

Hi BB,
I think this is SO spot on!! When a therapist feels like that, then your therapy is really about them and their needs and that always derails the proceedings. This made me remember a conversation I had once with my T who I think was amazing at handling my dependency and attraction and all that stuff. We had one session where we were discussing the erotic attraction in pretty deep detail. I was talking about why I wanted to have sex with him, and what I was looking to get out of it and tying that back to my past and how I had felt as a child. You would have thought we were discussing the weather. I actually looked at my T at one point and said I understood how being on the other end of this conversation could be pretty uncomfortable. And he told me, yeah, but I'm not. And I stopped and looked at him and realized he REALLY wasn't! So I said, you really aren't how do you do that?!? He told me that when he was younger, he wasn't as good about it but he had cleared out alot of his own garbage and he understood where it was coming from and it didn't feel threatening. He has a deep humility while maintaining a clear sense of his strengths that allows him to be really open to whatever a client brings him.

So I just wanted to say that I think you really identified just want the problem can be. If the therapist is feeling threatened or inadequate, how much easier to say that the client is difficult. Sometimes, I think there are therapists who only want to treat clients who don't NEED to be in therapy.

AG

quote:

But now instead of accepting the wish to connect with him-I feel as if I'm fighting it. I keep thinking of a reason to text him-knowing I should not and cannot. I do not think I will-but it's as if I have to fight these impulses-and often. We don't have contact in between (weekly) sessions-and I don't want to start now. I had texted him twice in 10 months, but had legit reasons (such as: I'm running 20 minutes late, sorry). But now I'm looking for excuses and fighting myself to not act out..but am acting out with anxiety through other outlets....Also, when we are not in our chairs such as when I'm leaving, everytime he stands close to me-I want to hug him or touch him.

Hi UV,
You have a very similar background to me, I was sexually abused by my dad from the age of 4 to 9 and my mom was pretty checked out and left me unprotected. In my case, it's resulted in PTSD and attachment injuries. The development of my attraction to my present T is what helped both of us identify the attachment injuries. When children are abused by a primary caretaker, they often develop disorganized attachment which means they can switch between avoidant behavior and pre-occupied behavior and back very rapidly. You are in a situation in which the very person you need to move towards to comfort you is also the source of the danger. So as desparately as we long to have our needs for acceptance, comfort, and love fulfilled, we also experience moving closer to someone to meet those needs as highly dangerous.

So many of the behaviors you are describing: missing your T, wanting to be in communication with him, wanting to touch him, are EXACTLY the kind of behavior a small child exhibits towards their attachment figure. These unmet needs are very primitive, from a very deep level and are a matter of life and death (if we don't stay near our attachment figure as children we die). As your T has provided what you need, these needs have come roaring back to life. That's why they're so strong. Seen in the proper context, they make perfect sense.

You're T sounds like he's doing a fantastic job of allowing you to express these feelings and holding still. That's the most important thing he can do. In my experience the intensity comes and goes but is the most helped by going back and continuing to talk about how you feel no matter what it is. My T always told me that he had the boundaries so that nothing inappropriate would happen but that any and all of my emotions were welcome in his office and could be discussed. That's how I worked through them.

You talked about wanting to text him or contact him in between sessions but knowing you shouldn't. Why shouldn't you? Does your T have a set policy about contact between sessions? Or is it your own fear of moving closer or allowing yourself to need him that gets in the way? I say this because my T actually has a very liberal contact policy, I can call or email anytime in between sessions when I need to, even if he's on vacation. It took me a REALLY long time to become comfortable doing this and kicked up all kinds of interesting feelings. My T explained to me over and over that it was actually theraputic for me to do so. I needed to learn that it was a good thing to move TOWARDS someone when i felt needy. That it's healthy for a human being to move towards connection but we had a huge sense of danger to overcome.

The truth is that all human beings need to be dependent on another human being before they can be independent. We're supposed to do that as children, when it's easier, more appropriate and we can take in what we need on the level we need to. But if it doesn't happen, we still need to learn a lot of things we only learn by being dependent on a stronger, wiser, other. Dependence can be a very touchy topic with a lot of therapists who have been trained to always see it as pathological in a patient. My T saw it as development gone awry and understood my need to be dependent on him for awhile in order to learn enough to stand more on my own.

I would recommend browsing through the forum (searches on "transference" and "dependence" would turn up a lot of good topics) as there have been a lot of good discussions on the stuff you're struggling with. I don't say that to discourage you from talking about how you're feeling, that's really important, I just think you might find it helpful. A good place to start is with these two topics: Update on Transference and Transference II

AG

quote:

If the therapist is feeling threatened or inadequate, how much easier to say that the client is difficult. Sometimes, I think there are therapists who only want to treat clients who don't NEED to be in therapy.

Thank you AG...my question is when you are in the middle of attachment stuff and you really, really need to trust the therapist, is there some way to discern where the therapist is at with this, in the middle of all our own confusing thoughts and projections and so on? Is there some kind of bottom line "if he is like this, then you can know he is safe" litmus test to know that the person has done their own work...because for me, my T seems to possess this basic humility, and yet many things happen that have confused me. And especially, the fact that I do have to make allowances for the fact that he is after all, *not* a divine being, frequently reminds me of that fact, even though I might think, and even need him to be one, kwim? So many paradoxes.

BB

That is very tough struggle BB and an excellent question. Especially because you're right, no matter how good the therapist, they are human and will sometimes let you down. Actually a very important part of healing is learning that disruptions do NOT mean the end of a relationship. That they can be repaired. Since there are no perfect human beings, it is imperative we learn how to do this.

My best gauge for this is non-defensiveness in the therapist. You have to keep talking about how you're feeling, especially about the things that confuse you. My therapist talked alot about how our emotions are sometimes an accurate reflection of reality and sometimes they weren't. They're vitally important information but we have to be able to get enough space between us and them to use them instead of letting them use us. So I asked him how do we tell if our feelings are accurate and he told me, you have to ask. So if I think my T is angry, or upset, or annoyed or wants to get rid of me based on my feelings, I had to keep asking him if it was true. But here's the litmus test for me. Whenever I asked, he was understanding and accepting of my feelings, he didn't get defensive or angry (and trust me I have accused him of some pretty bad stuff based on NO evidence) and his focus has always been on me. He would normalize my feelings, place them in context so I could understand why I was feeling that way even when he was telling me that my feelings weren't an accurate reflection of reality. He made my feelings welcome. And he never ever acted in a way which said my feelings were the "problem," they were just a source of information.

So the best thing to do if you feel like there's a red flag, is to take it to your T and talk about it. If they're open to talking about it, explaining why they do what they do, etc. I think you can be reasonably sure you're safe. If they're unwilling to discuss their behavior or act like they're beyond questioning, it's time to run like hell. It's also not a bad idea, if you have someone close, who has experience in therapy, run the behavior past them and see what they think if you don't trust your own reactions. Hope that helps.

AG

Hi again UV,

TN, BB, and AG are so right, of course. It is so frustrating – I “know” these things when I hear others’ stories, but sometimes forget them when it comes to my own. Maybe it hasn’t sunk in as far as it needs to yet, if I forget it that easily. Anyway I’d really really like to delete most of my previous post and just leave up the links up in answer to your question about what happened with my former T, but then the thread loses continuity, so I'll leave it up but just say sorry for the rehash. And TN, I'm going to check out that book. Both you and AG have recommended it so it must be good.

SG

SG...thank you for not deleting....it is so funny, I had a feeling you were thinking that, and I was really struck by your post.... there is so much of value in it for me to learn and it helps us to know more of you, which is valuable too...I really hope for my own selfish sake you can leave it there, because in all honesty it is a really wonderful post. I want to respond to more of the points in it myself, when I have some time, and also to what UV said, because I think there is so much for all of us to learn here....

Hug, SG, please keep posting about this...I know that you feel sensitive about it, but your post is so open and so honest...we all struggle with feeling like "it's too much." About ourselves, but others don't feel that way at all...

BB

SG,
I just want to say "Hear, hear" to what BB said, a very insightful, wise woman whose statement was dead on!

AG

Ok, UV, I reallllly hope you don't mind if I use your thread to ask AG ANOTHER question....so AG, what would you do if your T got defensive at times, then corrected it when I told him how that felt, and apologized very sincerely for his mistake, but then got defensive again, or made similar "mistakes" to the one that originally upset me- honestly, I think he's a sweetie to always put up with my constant, easily hurt feelings and often, apologize, but the reality is that I'm not postive he is all that reliable...he's just pretty disorganized and too busy, etc., but he's a sweetie in terms of not thinking he's "God." In fact he constantly remionds me of that fact, jokes about it very kindly, etc....I want to cut him some slack because, well, he's human- and also, and obviously, I am reallllly attached to him. It just gets so confusing at times. I should mention that he *seems* to have changed lately, his way of operating with me...I don't want this to get too long, so I shouldn't give all the details, but he just seems much kinder and much less likely to dismiss me or hurry me than he used to. (eek sorry, guys, I didn't mean to change the thread to suit me, but I desperately need to ask this!)

BB

Thanks BB and AG...BB that is funny you knew I was thinking that...