I know I'm not the only one who has been a victim; it's not as cut an dry as it seems.

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

*added trigger warning

This message has been edited. Last edited by: xoxo,

Owf, I've been on the receiving end of such a person. Has anyone else? Would love to hear experiences, if its not too triggering?

I'm still not sure whether she was a psychopath or a sociopath but she certainly turned out to be cunning, manipulative, superficial with her charm, unempathetic, power driven, cruel and spiteful with her words...

The person who I thought I knew for years turned out to be very different toward the end of our friendship. She was my landlady, but also a close friend of my Dad and stepmother since I was 5. Her daughter was my best friend.

She was so good at manipulation that I thought I was going crazy. Her 'logic' was so unusual and confusing. She rationalized her cruel comments and said they were 'concerns'. She bullied her daughter and said those were 'concerns' too. Now I understand why my friend suffers from major depression, motivation issues etc.

Safe to say that I will never speak to this woman again.

I've had to read up on all this to protect myself but they do say that it is so easy to fall for a psychopath. They'll cater to your needs and wants and compliment you, 'love' you etc and then when your knee deep in all your feelings, they'll find ways to hit at you. That scares me.

I confided in my landlady quite a lot and by the end of the relationship she would attack at my vulnerabilities very slyly.

What was even more scary was that she was a trained counsellor within a charity. But she was only charitable to fulfil her own selfish grandiosity. She needed victims of life to help her feel better about herself. Unfortunately this has pervaded on my therapy sessions. I'm extremely cautious of T incase she is a likewise person. So far, so good..

I think the best we can do with people like this is to learn to love and respect ourselves which will hopefully reduce the chances of getting involved with such people. :/...

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I've had to read up on all this to protect myself but they do say that it is so easy to fall for a psychopath. They'll cater to your needs and wants and compliment you, 'love' you etc and then when your knee deep in all your feelings, they'll find ways to hit at you. That scares me.

That's very wise and mature of you. It took me until I was in my 30s to realize this (after finding out about my ex-bf). I had PTSD from the relationship. To this day, very hypervigilant of the signs. The best thing to do is what you said here, imo:

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Safe to say that I will never speak to this woman again.

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What was even more scary was that she was a trained counsellor within a charity. But she was only charitable to fulfil her own selfish grandiosity. She needed victims of life to help her feel better about herself. Unfortunately this has pervaded on my therapy sessions. I'm extremely cautious of T incase she is a likewise person. So far, so good..

Psychopaths can be found in positions of power over others. Since you've had an experience with this before, I can understand why you are cautious. I don't have these fear with my therapist, thankfully. I trust him to be who he says he is.

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I think the best we can do with people like this is to learn to love and respect ourselves which will hopefully reduce the chances of getting involved with such people. :/...

That's really wise too, thanks. I am sorry to hear you have had an experience with someone like this.


Had to edit out personal details.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: xoxo,

Hey xoxo, wow you've had some share of these kinds of people yourself. I'm terribly sorry about your brother and what you found. I hope you are dealing with it okay. I sometimes become too compassionate for my own good. I think to myself 'but there has to be someone to help these poor people out. They are truly in immense pain' but at the end of the day, self-care is paramount and being taken advantage of is exceptionally damaging. Especially in the way that they do it.

Because I used to be manipulated by both my stepmum and Dad to a degree (pushed they're distorted perceptions onto me), it's why I've had to take special care in reading about manipulation. I am quite naive to impressionable people, so I've had to say to myself 'Keep guarded, don't trust people immediately just because you lack what they have'. In other words, not to idolize others and keep myself in check. It can be hard.

The previous person I dated for only a few months was big on playing games. She had very little empathy with what she was doing. It hurt me very badly and took me almost a year to get over the intense emotional overwhelming of it all. At the end of it I apologized to her for my mistakes. But I did not receive an apology back or even a recognition that she had been very cruel at times.

My housemate is not a sociopath but he sports a lack of empathy at times where it's needed. i.e. he cheats on his girlfriend. He's done it in front of me. He has no guilt for what he does. It puts me in a stalemate situation because she lives with us and I like her. I've had to keep in check that this is part of his personality. Unfortunately I become quite distrusting of such people and have decided to keep some distance from him. In my experience, such people have hostility locked in them that can come out in whatever way that might be unpredictable. Not always, but sometimes..

Yes, I have.

A woman who was threatened by me, and found a very vulnerable spot in me, and took advantage of it. (my depression) I won't get into the whole story but because of the experience, I do not trust or confide in many people.

She would do some very strange things like pick fights with people, provoke intense emotional responses, go into rages, and literally one minute later, (while the other person was still emotionally shaken from the confrontation) be on the phone with another person, light as can be, laughing, etc.

Crocodile tears, and very "contrived" emotional responses

Building up a group of allies- hate to say it, but most were not smart enough to see past her charm. Her "entourage" would come to her defense about what a "wonderful, nice", person she was, how she made you feel so special, yada... yada..
so if anyone were to speak the truth, they would be the "crazy, paranoid" one.

Very, very bizarre things came out of her mouth. She would literally clap her hands and jump up and down and say things like "that sounds like yummy fun"... things that made most people's eye roll, but her "entourage" ate it up. My point being is that her display of emotions just seemed "off" to most until you got under her spell.

Tried to become intimate with people waaay to fast.

She used pity almost every day to lure people into her web

She had secret affairs, several finaces at once

Taught a class and would simply not show up to teach, and thought nothing of it. Although people were perplexed, they regularly let her off the hook, due to her charm/ expertise in using pity, or simply denying that there was a problem with it at all.

Very irresponsible about keeping commitments.

Pathological liar, but again, most could not/would not see it, her charm would win them back within hours

I even gave her about 9 "strikes" instead of the usual 3, for things like standing me up for appointments

She betrayed me and others in serious ways and re-directed the blame back to her "victims"

I had enough and had the sense to get as far away from her as possible, but I don't have anyone else to talk to about it, as they are convinced that she is such a lovely person who had a "big heart".

ZERO integrity.

Scary, indeed. Gives me the creeps thinking about it. My encounter with her may have encouraged some of my trust/black and white thinking issues.

Ha, they DO INDEED exist! I'm so glad this was acknowledged.

Forgetmenot:

Yes!!! I apologized for things that I never did as well!

We are NOT losing our minds...!!!!

Yes, I have four in my life in very close and connected ways that cause me and others I care about much emotional pain. My father, one brother, his wife and my adopted brother's step-son. It sucks. I can't leave and cut them out of my life like recommended. My T even says she wishes I could move. However, there are innocent children also involved.

What's really hard is that, according to T, sone of the defenses I've developed through childhood and beyond are necessary for protection against them. Though it is these defense mechanisms that have caused me to become alone, depressed and stuck. T assures me it's possible to work with the subconscious to differentiate between who's safe and trustworthy and them. It will take tine, she says, but I have to. My subconscious now tells me everyone is unsafe, an I don't want to live a life feeling so disconnected.

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so if anyone were to speak the truth, they would be the "crazy, paranoid" one.

Yikes! I know this too. I tried to justify the sociopaths weird behaviour but a few people just didn't get it because she would cater to they're needs and vulnerabilities and they would therefore love her. I was also one of those people. I was so attached to her, until I saw the darker side of it all..

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sone of the defenses I've developed through childhood and beyond are necessary for protection against them. Though it is these defense mechanisms that have caused me to become alone, depressed and stuck. T assures me it's possible to work with the subconscious to differentiate between who's safe and trustworthy and them. It will take tine, she says, but I have to. My subconscious now tells me everyone is unsafe, an I don't want to live a life feeling so disconnected.

Ah ditto Raven. How to differentiate. That's my question nowadays. How do I differentiate who is trustworthy and who can be difficult and manipulative.

I'm, as of late, becoming a lot more cautious of people. I'm trying not to be the kind of person who looks for a 'perfect' person as there is none, but because of my experience in blindly trusting a few sociopaths in my time, I'm now particularly cautious.

I have a history of naively trusting in people who help me and who look after me like a parent would. I find the world a scary place because I'm not in tune with myself and what I want, my own needs, because I was not allowed to grow. So now I'm catching up....and I'm realizing, I cannot naively trust people nowadays. It's dangerous.

So..the sociopaths that I've met seem to have one thing in common and thats confidence. They seem to be very consistent in certain emotions such as happiness, energy, confidence. And when a problem arises, they have a capacity to skew over it for a very short time before they interrupt any other emotion with a 'smile be happy' philosophy.

It's a lesson to me about myself though, thats for sure. I have to learn to stand on my own two feet more and not be parented by people who are very caring because my experience is that those who were caring were also rather false as well. I've been seen as a victim of life for too long by these kinds of people, and therefore, I am they're perfect victim.

I feel I have to 'man up'. And until I learn to be more robust (because I'm really not at the moment), I'm remaining sceptical of overtly happy, fun, social chameleon type of people. But not only this, I am NOT going to be impressed by confidence anymore. I am not going to find my happiness in trying to become somebody I am not simply because I have no idea who I am.

I'm going to have to walk around the plain of confusion for a little while, if that means finding my own self-confidence and self-direction. I just don't want to become a hermit at the same time..

I often think now, that the key points in knowing when someone is not a sociopath is that they don't measure a consistent emotion in front of they're peers. A more balanced person is likely to show a whole host of emotions because that is what it means to be human.

But I am generalizing on my own experience here. Sociopaths are brilliant chameleons. Scary, a bit?

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I feel I have to 'man up'. And until I learn to be more robust (because I'm really not at the moment), I'm remaining sceptical of overtly happy, fun, social chameleon type of people. But not only this, I am NOT going to be impressed by confidence anymore. I am not going to find my happiness in trying to become somebody I am not simply because I have no idea who I am.

Have you read "The Sociopath Next Door"? From what I have read, sociopaths do NOT experience the normal range of motions that we do. When they are acting empathetic, or cautious, or sad, they are literally doing just that... ACTING. They don't "do" sophisticated emotions. They utterly lack sensitivity and are only interested in one thing: Winning.

Integrity and honor are also things that they lack and are not interested in. Many "BS" their way through life. From what I gather, they have very little sense of responsibility and are parasitic. Instead of striving to do their best, they make sure that they keep everyone else at or below their level.

If they lack emotions, they do now how to do a few things very very well: Charm, maniupulation, and crocodile tears. Ever notice that when they go into an emotional state they can shut it off just as quickly?

That's a red flag. I also don't let people get too close to me too quickly, (they tend to pretend to be your best friend the first time they meet you)

The one I knew was also a chameleon. From what I gather, SP's don't seem to have much of a sense of self either. Their life is based on their "prey"

So perhaps our sensitivity and difficulty in trusting is a GOOD thing at times!

Also, I do not think you are "weak" Forgetmenot, for having a hard time figuring out who to trust and who not to trust. I was reading a book about trauma, and people that have been through hell and back, through "war"- have to make those decisions quickly. I did the same thing- I would totally distrust most people and overtrust one or two- I would "trust them with my life" - which was kind of literally true- in the case of my rock climbing partner, but this could apply to an emotional scenario as well. I like to have a "comrade in arms" that I can trust in "battle" as well.

I just look for the signs mentioned above. If someone just seems "off" in the way that the sociopath I met does, I avoid them like the plague. I may make a mistake, but I have to do it, I got hurt badly and it's not worth it to me.

I also give "3 strikes" - if someone betrays me 3 times (or less) DONE! I think that's ok, right?

It feels good to know that I am not crazy, that I was had, and there was a reason for it. I don't normally like to claim myself as a victim, in most cases human relationships are a delicate balancing act. I also dislike "objectifying" people with mental or emotional disorders, it's not a very kind thing to do, But not in this case- you won't see one in therapy, and everyone else is THEIR object. We are just there for them to play with. Information is a good thing, especially for many of us here, who already have been hurt badly.

Hope all goes well, and we master the trusting of our own instincts! (May the Force be with you?)

Number9 thanks for your words of wisdom here.

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If they lack emotions, they do now how to do a few things very very well: Charm, maniupulation, and crocodile tears. Ever notice that when they go into an emotional state they can shut it off just as quickly?

Ah! Yes, this is what I noticed in the sociopathic landlady I had before I moved. I got very angry toward her about how she was hitting at my vulnerabilities. She was winding me up and making me upset.

It's a looongg story but I ended up flipping out at her and calling her up on how she was manipulating me. She didn't react. Cool as cucumbers. I was really angry at what she was doing and how sly she had become. There were only two times where she reacted to me with all that repressed, scary anger. I said to her 'you have the emotional maturity of a 5 year old' and she found it hard to not keep herself guarded because in truth, yes, she is a very pained 5 year old. She's had an awful childhood. Also, she recorded one of my conversations I had with my stepdad on her iphone in which she played it on low speaker so I could just about hear it. She did it with a small smirk on her face. When I said to her 'excuse me, have you been recording my conversations?', this seething, scary, utterly malicious anger came out. It was as if she was a completely different person. Her face twisted into something else I swear.

But as equally as she showed it, she withdrew it and became this cool, reasoning, reliable, charitable person again.

Even after my verbal outbursts at her, after the arguments, at the end of it, she got me out of her house onto the sofa with one of her tenants the floor below and was as 'lovely' as she ever was. Helpful, friendly, 'concerned'.

But her behaviour suggests otherwise. She withdraws her love from her daughter and calls it a 'concern'. She criticises her best friend and calls it 'analysis'. She watches tv programs and comments on how this doesn't suit this woman, or that dress looks terrible and calls it an 'observation'.

Her daughter suffers major depression, low self esteem, no direction, finds the world an uninviting place and is unfortunately following in the footsteps of her mother a little. The only difference is that she is apt to questioning herself much more than her mother, who prefers to escape and immerse into managing her business.

She does sound quite a bit like the one that I encountered!

I do still have a lot to learn, yep. But I read everything I could get my hands on in regards to sociopaths, and learned a valuable lesson. Discernment is something that I'm wrestling with- I don't want to second-guess my intuition by accusing myself of going into "black and white" thinking, because walking away from that situation was one of the best decisions I have ever made, and should have done it much sooner. So much for gray-thinking... 12 strikes? you're out?

It blows my mind how little the public knows about sociopaths, and how much our society rewards them.

Until then, nope, we aren't nuts!

I got really spooked at the possibility that he would find me by my posts...still triggered but want to talk about it..but maybe not so much in depth right now.

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I sometimes become too compassionate for my own good. I think to myself 'but there has to be someone to help these poor people out. They are truly in immense pain' but at the end of the day, self-care is paramount and being taken advantage of is exceptionally damaging.

FMN, I've had similar feelings. I often feel like my parents 'killed' my brother, this is not light. I don't think he was born this way. I have deep grief over the loss of my sibling. i had to detach years ago, after what he did to me. There's not much else you can do. I have to always tell myself, if he's a psychopath-he's probably not feeling much pain, if any at all. There's nothing I can do but avoid him.

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It blows my mind how little the public knows about sociopaths, and how much our society rewards them.

I find it extremely triggering when I see the signs and others around me are charmed by them. Part of it, imo, has to do with behavioral psychology. The DSM's list of 'symptoms' don't denote a psychopath, imo. Antisocial personality disorder is prevalent in the jails; i think a lot of people in that situation had a f*ed up childood combined with lack of impulse control. I think the most dangerous psychopaths have intermittent impulse control and it helps them manipulate. I agree, they have little to no affect; it's feigned.

This doesn't sound like a person with a 'mental illness' does it?? I do feel bad; I don't think a child grew up thinking "I want to be a psychopath when I grow up". But we must protect ourselves.

"Hare's PCL-R 20-item checklist is based on Cleckley's 16-item checklist, and the following is a discussion of the concepts in the PCL-R.

But first of all, here is Cleckley's original list of symptoms of a psychopath":

1. Considerable superficial charm and average or above average intelligence.

2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking

3. Absence of anxiety or other "neurotic" symptoms considerable poise, calmness, and verbal facility.

4. Unreliability, disregard for obligations no sense of responsibility, in matters of little and great import.

5.Untruthfulness and insincerity

7. Antisocial behavior which is inadequately motivated and poorly planned, seeming to stem from an inexplicable impulsiveness.

7.Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior

8.Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience

9. Pathological egocentricity. Total self-centeredness incapacity for real love and attachment.

10. General poverty ot deep and lasting emotions.

11. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.

12. Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness, and trust.

13. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.

14. No history of genuine suicide attempts.

15. An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated seX life.

16. Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way, unless it be one promoting self-defeat.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2...pathy_checklist.html

....more like 100 strikes and you're still not out with me. My father, brother and his wife are awful and use innocent children in their games. While I don't necessarily "fall for it" anymore - I still allow them to use me. I've read many books and have had numerous conversations with T about them and the complex trauma I suffer from all of it. My entire life my father would blame me for his wrong-doings and get people to believe him because he's so "charming". My mother always believed him. I started believing the lies myself and questioned sanity for years - "was it really just me losing my mind?" I would ask myself. How can they lie so easily about things and completely deny the truth?

While I have a lot of knowledge now about psychopaths and being the victim of several, it still hurts. I can logically know they have no capacity for true caring, it still hurts to feel like your family hates you and can use you like a pawn in their twisted games.

Wow, Raven, I am VERY sorry your family fall into this category.

It IS very hard to make sense of, probably more so in your case. How do you deal with someone who has no moral integrity? It's so hard to process, so few choices.

Feels like:

It's hard to rationalize, I would imagine especially with family. I was lucky to be able to walk away.

I'm glad you have a T that recognizes that sociopaths exist, because I have heard of a few that do not! (They believe that all people are basically good)

Let me know if you find any good books on this!

xoxo: thanks for the list!

My Ma was one.