Here is the first official installment of our discussion of the book "A General Theory of Love" by Thomas Lewis, MD Fari Amini, MD and Richard Lannon, MD.

Anyone can join in the discussion whether or not you've read the book.

Since this seems to be a favorite passage let's dive in to the juicy stuff rather than having to go chapter by chapter in order. I really like Just Me's quote from yesterday:

"I am really fascinated at the understanding of the physiology of what is going on as my brain is transformed by the love I have come to know and trust. “a precise seers light can still split the night, illuminate treasures long thought lost, and dissolve many fearsome figures into shadows and dust. Those who succeed in revealing themselves to another find the dimness receding from their own vision of self.”-A General Theory of Love pg.170."

Is it love? Is love supposed to exist between T and client? Do you think of your feelings towards your T as love? Do you think they love you?

If you had asked me these questions a year ago I would have said "Of course not! I can't love her I don't know anything about her. She can't love me because she is a professional and don't professionals maintain a healthy level of clinical detachment so that they don't get personally involved or emotionally burn out?"

In the last year I have starting trusting my T a lot more, I have told her some really deep things and have withstood being much more vulnerable with her plus after reading this book my answer now would be: "I am not so sure. Maybe therapy works because there is love involved."

What do you all think?

Great Starter River! And not just because you used my favorite quote.

Based on where I am at in my therapy relationship, and what I feel and know to be true in my experience with my T, and most certainly understand from this book, I give a propounding yes.

On page 144 of the book the author describes the force of what is called limbic Attractors (in this case between client and therapist) and its ability to write permanent change into the brain. “In a relationship, one mind revises another; one heart changes its partner. This astounding legacy of…neural beings is limbic revision: the power to remodel the emotional parts of the people we love…Who we are and who become depends, in part on whom we love.”

There are different types of love that qualify and sometimes overlap in certain relationships. There is familial love, friendship love, romantic love, and love based on principle. I believe that the latter well suits the scope of love found in our therapeutic relationships with our T’s. I am at ease now that I actually believe that my T does have affection for me. She has demonstrated it over the years and I have questioned it, tested it in every way possible-as many of you have done the same, and the proof is, yes, she loves me. But it is necessary at the same time to be careful not to misunderstand that love, the basis of that love, and its intrinsic boundaries. Would I expect to hear her say that she loves me? No, for she would likely fear my interpretation of that statement. Might I one day express it to her if appropriate? Maybe, but only if appropriate.

I think in order to be in their profession there has to be an immense love for people in general and that transcends into the individual relationships with their clients. The longer a client remains in therapy, the more they see their client over come, the more a love will abound just as it does on the client’s part. I agree that a year, maybe two ½ years ago for me, I would have stated the same as River. I know absolutely nothing about this woman, that’s not love. But now with all that I have come to know to be true. Yes, I know that I do and I have every reason to love her as much as to trust her. But all within the boundaries that I enjoy.

River,
One of the things that I loved (pardon the pun!) about GTOL is that they talked about the centrality of love and how powerful it is. I've always believed this from a spiritual point of view, but its nice that the neurobiology backs it up.

I do believe that real love occurs in the theraputic relationship. A therapist is not going to say it to a client, but I believe that a good theraputic relationship demonstrates agape love in one of the purest forms you'll see. The love is more one of action than of feeling. The love is a one way love that seeks only the good of the beloved. In that hour they are with us. they completely put themselves and their needs aside, and concentrate solely on what we need. They chose to act only in ways that they believe will benefit us and not for their good. My T keeps himself accessible all the time even through his vacations. I see that as a great personal sacrifice 'cause let me tell you, I do NOT take work with me on vacation. And that tells me that this is more than a job (at least for the good ones); I believe its also a vocation.

Our last couples session, near the end, after talking about handling a conflict in a new way and how we were learning to be different in how we behaved with each other because each of was more aware of why we were doing what we were doing AND being more understanding of each other, my T started talking about how in our love relationships we bump up against the very things that we most need to change. That within the context of love is where we grow, where we can become the best person we can. That he has seen it happen time and time again, and he believes that there is a design in it. The weirdest part was that as he wsa explaining in detail what he meant, his description of relationship was almost word for word how he has described his and I's relationship in the past, and why it can be so healing. So it hit me in the middle of this that he sees our relationship as a loving one. He loves me, he'll just never say it.

As for the flip side, I don't know if its true for everyone in therapy, but I know that I geniuinely love my therapist (I mean that in a non-romantic way). He has helped me heal in ways I didn't think possible and has given so much of himself that how can I not feel grateful, and how could I not love him? He makes me feel loved and worthwhile in a way I've very seldom been able to experience.

Forgive me if I repeat myself, but I told him that I loved him. One of the important things about my relationship with my T is that I let him know me completely. My deepest fear is that if someone knows me completely, if they can see the "real" me, they'll leave. So it has been important that I am really honest with my T or I'm just repeating the "let me hide, so they stay." I also realized that on some level I believed that being loved by me would be unwelcome (yes, I had/have self-esteem issues still digging out those bad messages) so it felt really important to tell him how I felt. So I told him that I was really grateful for what he had done, that I had never been able to trust a man on such a deep level before and that I loved him for that. He responded wonderfully. He asked me how I felt about saying it? and I told him I was really scared. That I would be sent away because I had crossed a line and that my love would be seen as an unwelcome thing. He told me that although some people, including professionals, wouldn't call it love, he believed in this kind of intimate, honest relationship, those feelings can occur. (It was good not to be told I wasn't feeling what I knew I was feeling) and that he did not find it personally or professionally distasteful to know I felt that way. That he was glad I was able to experience his care and feel that way. I didn't hear "I love you" back (which I didn't expect) but my feelings were completely accepted and understood and treated with respect.

Its a funny thing about therapy. Clients can talk and not act, and therapists can act but not talk. I said out loud "I love you" to my T and he says I love you in a myriad of ways by how he treats me.

Just for the record, you know I'm not always so clear about all this. And sometimes when I think to myself that he really does love me, there's definitely an internal response that feels like it can't be true, I'm assuming too much. But in my better moments I can hang on to it.

And I agree with JM, in some ways we don't know alot about our Ts, but the intimacy we experience cuts both waya. We experience our Ts on a very deep level and in some ways its better. Within the boundaries, you do away with a lot of the superficial stuff and cut to the chase. In that way, I believe we know them well enough to sincerely love them. Bottom line,if this isn't love, then I don't know what it looks like. Great question!

AG

What if your T told you he/she loved you? (Like we've been discussing, not romantically of course.) How would you feel? What would you think? How would you react?

I think I'd have to actually be “there” and see how I respond in that moment. I really don’t know how I’d react. I think I’d cry. No, I know that I would cry. I know from her it would come in the purest of form so I know I would not worry about intent. But still, it seems weird from this angle w/o any relative knowledge as to why she would express that. I’d probably have to ask her if she loves me and even then, I am inclined to believe she would turn it into a question of what do I believe and why I believe that. Then again, she may surprise me and just say “yes, of course I do.” Actually, knowing my T it would probably be in the tune of more a sarcastic banter.

BTW: I read those 2 excerpts from the book (pg 144, & 170) to my T yesterday and she really liked it. She wrote down the title of the book as if she intended to get a copy for herself. I told her I was finished with it if she wants to borrow it. She said that’d be great for when she goes on that long plane ride in 2 weeks. So I am excited that she is interested in reading it. –just a side note.

My dream this morning was about my T. I rarely dream about her so when it happens it makes me curious. I won't go into boring details because they won't mean anything to anyone else but essentially, she and I were shopping together at a fair/farmer's market type place, and even though I was happy and excited to be doing this with her I was also anxious because I didn't know why we were doing this or how I should act.

So, it occurred to me that this would probably be my reaction. I'd be happy and excited but also a little worried if I am hearing anything different in the words than she means to communicate. I guess the word "love" itself can mean so many things that I don't always know what it means.

As for what the dream, I can't attach it to any context in my life presently except maybe how I felt Friday after my session. Of course anytime I tell my T about a dream her favorite thing to do is to see if I can understand the dream through seeing all of the players as different parts of myself. When I think of it that way I wonder if it is about me and Little Sister spending more time together lately. (Sorry for the tangent.)

I dream about my T a lot. Maybe this is one way of keeping them close to us at all times.

When I fantasize about doing things w/ my T there is an element of knowing that it would be awkward if played out in reality. Such as meeting her for lunch or shopping together: Like I’d be wondering, “Ok what do we talk about when we’re not just talking about me and you can’t get too personal because that would alter the whole axis of our relationship.”

On the other hand sometimes when I am running I can imagine her running beside me and that feels more comfortable since there doesn’t have to be a conversational flow. We’re just together. And running is something that we happen to have in common.

JM,
I'm really excited your T is going to read the book; I may start asking for a finder's fee from the authors.

I hope it is ok if I pose a question and thought for our book discussion:

Q: What did you find most fascinating or surprising about this book?

I appreciate learning “how things work.” I’ve known of synapses and how they occur, but the depth of the neurobiological network was explained with such simplicity and ease. It was very interesting in chpt. 6 “A Bend in the Road” how the authors graphed out how neural linkages are made. And I could easily relate to the patient who would experience any minor set back and ruminate for days whereas most people may consider it for a few minutes and it dwindles.

Understanding that our filters are so fogged that our brain sees (H) even though (A) was presented, is profound and their explanation of this process is brilliantly simple. Our brain finds the common dual vertical pillars and crossbar and washes out individual elements and seductively spins backward from the new and actual input to what we’ve known. What we have experienced (H) methodically re-wires the brain and the nature of what it has seen (A) dictates what it can see (H).

I don’t know how well this translates w/o the graphs for those who have not read the book, but I hope it does make some sense at least.

Question 1: How would I feel about my T saying "I love you?"

At my last sessions with my first T when she retired, the last thing we did was hug each other and we said "I love you" at the same time which was really nice because I didn't feel like she was forced to say it in response to my saying it. It meant a huge deal because I knew I wasn't going to see her again, and how badly I would miss her, but knowing she loved me left me feeling still connected. And although, with her, I already knew she felt that way, it was wonderful to hear.

With my present T, it would be a lot more complicated, I think. I would definitely cry, no doubt about it and at the time it would be really good to hear, but I not sure where I would go afterwards. I think I might start wondering how he meant it and I think it might have the effect of putting the focus to much on how I felt about him instead of the work we're doing. I've mentioned before, my T definitely likes to demonstrate instead of say things. A good example is my not being able to trust him in the beginning. We talked about it once and he told me that if he had just told me he was trustworthy it wouldn't have made any difference, because I wouldn't have believed him. He just had to stay and be trustworthy until I trusted it. Same thing with love, I don't think hearing I love you would really change me, its'only cognitive. But experiencing his love and care makes a difference. Hope that made sense.

Most suprising and fascinating thing: I think that neurobiology supports the importance of relationships was the most fascinating. The most suprising was that so much was happening "out of sight" and how unimportant cognitive understanding and insight could be in trying to change. I think this book is what really convinced me of the need to be in relationship and experience something different in being dependent on my T, and that's how the healing would occur. It really helped me stop fighting all the feelings of how important he was to me and how much I needed him.

AG

Ooops, one more thing (been a little while since I read it) in the fascinating department. The fact that human beings are an "open" system physioglogically. We need to be in relationship for our nervous systems to actually function optimally. That's just mind-blowing.

That is mind blowing, I absoultely agree.

I can’t help but to reflect on my favorite poem when I recall the poetic nature of this book. If I remember correctly, they quoted 2 poems by ee cummings. But this is one that they did not quote, but would fit perfectly into the theme of love we’ve been discussing:

i carry your heart with me (i carry it in my heart) i am never without it (anywhere i go you go, my dear, and whatever is done by only me is your doing, my darling)

i fear no fate (for you are my fate, my sweet) i want no world (for beautiful you are my world, my true) and it’s you are whatever a moon has always meant and whatever a sun will always sing is you

here is the deepest secret nobody knows (here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud and the sky of the sky of a tree called life; which grows higher than the soul can hope or mind can hide) and this is the wonder that’s keeping the stars apart

i carry your heart (i carry it in my heart)

e. e. cummings

One of the things I found really fascinating and comforting (and scary) is this:

"A patient doesn't become generically healthier; he becomes more like the therapist...That makes selecting one's therapist a life decision with (in mild terms) extensive repercussions...The person of the therapist will determine the shape of the new world a patient is bound for; the configuration of his his limbic Attractors fixes those of the other."

This is fascinating in that it is so simple yet there is so much academia around psychology research, theory and technique and how it can help or hurt people.

What I find comforting about it is that this means my T has already done half of the work and I just have to soak it in (which is easier said than done). There is a lot of emphasis in our culture on individuality and being your own person. There are very few opportunities to absorb the hard earned wisdom & talents of others through mentoring or apprenticeships. This seems a much more effective way of learning and growing which I guess is why the focus of all of my transference reactions (is reactions the right word here?) have been towards mentor-types. I find myself looking up to these women and wishing I were more like them. So knowing that this is actually what is happening in therapy is very encouraging for me.

Of course the flip side of this is very scary. We are really trusting that our therapists are truly father down the path than us and that they have done their own work in therapy.

How do you feel about your therapist determining the shape of your the new world?