Hello all,

My T tells me that I have automatic and unconscious responses to thoughts, resulting in my symptoms. Basically the set up is this:

I have certain beliefs that conflict so intensely to certain long buried longings that the result is extreme anxiety. And of course, it's all happening below my level of awareness.

He says that recognizing these processes and beliefs and bringing them into consciousness will change the automatic response, but I still don't really get how this actually happens.

Can anyone with more knowledge of the technical side of this stuff offer some insight into this?

Cheers,
Russ

Hi Russ,
Human beings come with a basic set of longings, for connection, for love, for a sense of significance (that we matter to the people around us), of being cared for and having our needs met. Those do NOT go away because they're not fulfilled, they just go underground.

And why would they go underground you ask? Because everytime we tried to get them fulfilled when we were young it went BADLY. We eneded up hurt, or scared, or punished, or even worse things. Until our limbic system learned on a very deep level that to try and get our needs fulfilled, to move towards someone, was a good way to get hurt and therefore needed to be avoided at any cost. And so we buried our needs.

But as I mentioned previously, they do NOT go away. They keep clamoring and it gets harder and harder to hold them down. So finally, we look at them and say, ok, ok, I start paying attention to you. But when we move to meet those needs, guess what we're doing? We doing things that register as VERY DANGEROUS to us. And our mind will do whatever it needs to in an attempt to keep us safe. Including making us feel anxious anytime we start to express our feelings so we can be heard, or reach out to someone in connection.

The very things you long for invoke in you a deep sense of danger. That if you attempt to go towards what you need, you will be severely hurt. At one time this was actually a reasonable assumption and one that allowed you to survive. Which is the whole point. So what if you're not happy, you're still here to talk about it. But now those behaviors are maladaptive because you're no longer in that situation and they don't accurately reflect reality. And continuing to believe them severely limits the choices that you can even see, let alone make, because you're trying at all costs to avoid that danger. But you're right brain has NO time sense, it doesn't realize that the danger has passed.

So you have to undergo a painful, scary process. Which is to stay with how you're feeling (which is scary because there was a time you didn't have the capacity or resources to handle those feelings). You have to walk into the midst of the fear so you can see just what it is that you unconsciously believe so that you can recognize the lies and have someone recognize them with you and tell you there not true. You need to move towards having your needs met, through the terror, over and over until you experience something different enough times that the danger messages will fade to a dim whisper that you can more easily and more quickly overcome (I don't think they ever totally go away.)

I know its completely confusing and can be overhwelming, but its in the midst of this struggle that our understanding is born. From the other side it looks so simple and like a such a small shift, but it is incredibly hard work to get there. I told my T this morning that I had gone on a journey of 10,000 miles to move half an inch. But there was no other way to get there. But I will tell you, promise you, that its worth it.

AG

Hey Russ! How are you doing? Haven't seen you around much the past few days.

quote:

Can anyone with more knowledge of the technical side of this stuff offer some insight into this?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here- what do you mean by technical side? Are you looking for examples? Something to make the theory more concrete? Or are you wanting to know how the process plays out/how long it takes to change the automatic response?

I'd really like to offer you any help I can (if I can), but I want to make sure I understand what you are asking. If you could help me determine what you mean, I'd be glad to see if I have anything to offer.

-CT

Hi AG,

Thanks so much for your explanation. You're right, it all went very badly, and the needs got buried. Very buried.

And I agree about the mind having no sense of time. It's a timeless place. All that stuff might as well have happened 5 minutes ago.


Hi CT,

Yes, I guess what I'm curious about is how this whole "making the unconscious conscious" actually results in people getting better. Like, why does it work? AG explained it very well in saying:

quote:

You need to move towards having your needs met, through the terror, over and over until you experience something different enough times that the danger messages will fade to a dim whisper that you can more easily and more quickly overcome...

It basically sounds like a kind of re-conditioning through a kind of education. I start to see and even feel the old buried feelings, but when this happens, the old danger signal still gets tripped and the old emergency response happens.

When I asked my T why until last year I was more or less OK and now I feel like I have nothing to protect me from anything. He said, "because the old configuration that allowed you to not feel those feelings and feel more or less OK has been suspended, but it wasn't working very well anyway."

And of course I would love to know how long it takes to change the automatic response (or do I?), but I know that's impossible to know. Everyone is different. It's just that my T never talks about the nuts and bolts of how the mind works (i.e. the Self, the ego, etc) as it relates to me because he thinks it's just a distraction. But, as technical person, I like to know about how this stuff actually works.

Here's my problem: as I say I am a technical person. If you present me with a problem, I will solve it in a very linear way; here's the cause, here's the effect, here's the problem, here's the solution. So, I am looking at my emotional issues the same way, but the linear model SO doesn't work, and it confuses me. And of course a large part of me is saying, "ok, just tell me what I have to do to make the pain stop and I'll do it," and, ironically, this attitude tends to skip over the cause, the effect and the solution.

Thanks so much.
Russ

Hi Russ,

I think AG mentioned this book before: A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard LannonA General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard Lannon. It's such an eye opener on how the brain, emotions, thoughts and reality hang together! Why we act the way we do without being conscious of it and why we have to actually go through our fears again and again - but with a t there to teach us a different view bit by bit. Rather than just reading about it - an approach I'd greatly prefer

SB

SB,

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll certainly check it out.

Edit: actually, I did start to read "A General Theory of Love" but was a bit turned off by the Freud bashing. Not that I'm a Freud devotee, but I thought that the authors dismissed his ideas too easily right off the bat. I'll give it another look, though.

Best,
Russ

Russ,

there are a few things in there that `i found a bit dodgy. I really, REALLY don't like the use of 'he' for pretty much everything apart from 'mother'. Even kids are male! I mean this is the 21st century... But, for me the content was worth persisting.

SB

Russ,

It can be done. I know from experience.

I have pretty much hated myself for my whole life. When I had some type of emotion, whatever it was, my next response would be self-hatred. Through work with my therapist, it's not necessarily the first response anymore, and when it is, I can often get a handle on it pretty quickly. It's amazing how what I thought was part of who I was I now see as something separate from me, a defense mechanism. It sounds like it's a similar thing to what you have happening.

One of the first things my therapist and I did was called parts therapy. She had me think of all of the different parts of me, the different voices in my head that play a role in my thoughts and behaviors. This was one of the first things that I did in therapy with her, but it's an ongoing thing, as I recognize voices that I didn't notice before, and as new voices emerge. A very strong voice in the beginning was self-hatred. Doing this activity caused me to become aware of what is going on inside of me.

She also taught me coping strategies. When I feel self-hatred, I can postpone it. If I tell myself, I don't have to feel self-hatred right now, I can feel it in 5 minutes. It will often subside within that period of time. Another strategy was to allow myself to feel it. If I just HAD to feel it, I would say to myself, "It's okay. I accept that you feel self-hatred. You can hate yourself for 5 minutes, then you're going to do something different." Somehow through allowing myself to feel it, it moved through quickly. Another strategy was to pay attention to my body (apparently, Shrinklady uses this type of therapy a lot). What was my body telling me? My face felt hot, my fists felt like clenching, etc. Then, to tell my body, "I hear you trying to tell me something. What are you wanting me to hear?" Then, the self-hatred would usually leave and it would be replaced by sadness. All of these activities encourage awareness of what's going on inside of me.

Another thing that she did was that she continually told me, "The self-hatred is not you. It's a defense mechanism that you formed when you were little and didn't know how else to deal with these feelings. It's not who you are." This allowed me to learn to separate myself from it, which, again, brought about further awareness.

Something that's been very helpful is making a list of things that I can do, that I enjoy doing and that feel right to me, when I start to feel bad.

The most important thing that she did was to continue to love and accept me when I had feelings of self-hatred. Sometimes I still say things like, "I'd just rather be dead." She'll rub my back and say, "Just for the record, I'm glad your not." When I go into a self-hatred funk, she'll say, "It seems like you need to hate yourself right now. If that's what you need, that's okay. If you want to, you can try to postpone it. You can turn right instead of left. You know what it's like to turn left. You've been down that road. You can try the other way this time." I might choose to keep hating myself. She is just as supportive as she would have been if I had stopped hating myself. It makes me feel like maybe I'm not some big lame loser. Maybe there's a part of me that's still lovable.

By the way, I still struggle with self-hatred, but it doesn't rule every aspect of my life like it used to. My subconscious responses are certainly changing.

So, you wanted technical answers, and I gave you examples. I don't know how to answer this question technically, but I hope my examples help. I don't think there's one answer. I think that there's a combination of answers. And the combination that works for one person might not work for another. I think the bottom line is learning about yourself and becoming aware of yourself.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I think it is: You have to let go and trust or it will never happen. Trust your therapist. Trust the process. Trust yourself.

(By the way, I've missed seeing you around the past few days.)
catgirl

Hi Catgirl,

I was in the process of responding to you when the Great Psychcafe Crash of '09 hit.

Thanks so much for talking about your experiences. It's very helpful to hear other peoples' stories and strategies and coping skills.

I haven't been posting a lot lately because I'm just struggling so much and it's hard to concentrate. It seems like the more that buried emotions try to come to the surface (often in my dreams), the more intense the fear and anxiety become, and it's been hellish lately.

Last night was a good example. I had a dream that I was looking into a mirror and my face changed to my face that I recently saw of myself from when I was about 10 or 11. The surface content of these dreams aren't really frightening or grotesque, but there's something about them that just causes these horrible bouts of fear.

Anyway, I so appreciate your examples. They're really helpful, and it's encouraging to read. I agree that I have to let go and trust, but boy it's hard when the pain just seems relentless. It looks like I'll be giving the ADs another try.

Best,
Russ

Hi Russ.. I don't think we have ever directly spoken before but I read you posts with great interest. I, too, have Generalized Anxiety Disorder as my main dx with underlying depression. The depression is usually very mild and does not really effect my day to day functioning. But boy when the bad anxiety hits it's really crippling. I have been in therapy for a bit over a year now and for awhile my anxiety was so much better but lately I've had a few really bad days. Two weeks ago I had a day where I was curled up on the couch with a blanket unable to stop shaking and thinking I was about to die. It was horrible. And to top it off I had a disagreement with my T and was angry with him so I would not allow myself to contact him. I guess it was my way of punishing myself... which I am very good at, BTW. I knew I needed him so badly but felt I didn't even deserve the luxury of reaching out for him via email or phone.

And what was our disagreement about? Taking AD meds. I refuse to take them and whenever he suggests them I freak out and get really very angry with him. I know I have an issue with meds in general and the thought of taking anything triggers my anxiety. As my T says... I'm in a huge bind. I'm anxious and he believes meds would help me but I'm med phobic and they trigger my anxieties. And so I refuse. I even wrote a note to my file saying he has discussed meds w/me but that I refuse/am not interested in taking them. I told him that now he is ethically covered should this ever come up.

So I understand your reluctance to start AD meds completely. Although when I had that really bad day a few weeks ago I would have really considered taking a xanax or something to calm me. It was pretty bad. I told my T about not calling him for help and he was upset that I should deny myself the help I needed. We seemed to have patched things up and things are okay now between us.

Sorry for diverting your thread. As far as the technical aspect of therapy... all I can offer is to tell you that therapy is not a linear process. It wanders all around and doubles back and goes diagonal. As for the rest... I completely agree with AG.

TN

Russ,

Sorry to hear that things are so rough for you right now.

There have been numerous times in my theraputic process that I was ready to quit. The deep emotions and memories that constantly bombard me sometimes are so painful, that I just want to put an end to it and go back to my old ways and my old defenses. Just when I'm about to quit, I always turn the corner.

This process of discovery that we are doing in therapy is more difficult than many things that we do in life. But, I think it's worth it. It's so hard to over and over again push through the pain, but on the other side of it is where the reward lies.


TN,

I just want to share my experience. My T says that I have generalized anxiety and depression. I have struggled and struggled with the roller coaster of intense anxiety swinging back to depression. I've been seeing her for 2 years. When I first started seeing her, I asked her what she thought of anti-depressants for me, she suggested that we do some work to see if we can figure out what's going on with me. After my mom died 10 months ago, I asked what she thought of ADs. She suggested holding off so that I could feel the grief and not just cover up the symptoms. I spent the next 8 months or so on a major roller coaster, cycling through depression and anxiety, that often was somewhat debilitating. I asked her recently what she thought of ADs. She said that she thought it was a good idea, and she was going to bring up the subject soon if I didn't.

I've always been sort of anti-drugs. I just feel like you can't really trust the ADA. You never know if something you're taking now will cause cancer or something in 20 years. So, I was a little leery of starting them. But, with the roller coaster going on, I had to try something.

I started taking 5 mms of Lexapro each day. This is a really small amount. It has made an amazing difference. The anxiety was affected within 2 days, though for most people it takes a couple of weeks. (I'm a REAL lightweight.) The depression was affected within 2 weeks, though this usually takes 4-8 weeks to work.

Anyway, I feel NORMAL now. Not on top of the world, and not in a bottomless pit, but normal. I feel like I can manage life. My feet are beginning to feel like they're becoming planted into the ground, not trying to run around to balance me all of the time.

The hope is that I will only take the meds for 6 months to a year. During this time, I'm supposed to focus on getting more coping skills so that when I get off of them, I'll be functioning better, and hopefully won't be on a roller coaster. If this doesn't work, I'll reevaluate.

So, I hear your concern about meds. But, sometimes they have their place.

What scares you about them? Just curious.

My friend recently started an enzyme regimen prescribed by a non-traditional doctor. She is experiencing similar results as I am through taking enzymes. If I can't find a balance after I get off of the meds in 6-12 months, I'll try enzymes.

Anyway, do what you need to do for yourself. I just wanted to share my experience.

catgirl

TN and Catgirl,

I totally get "the bind" that you're in, TN. I'm in the same place. Both myself and my T would prefer to not get into the AD crapshoot because there's the risk that we'll "lose the trail" to the root causes of my problems if the symptoms go away, and that's if the stuff works, which so far for me, they have not. But, I can't go on living each day in fear and the resulting depression.

TN, I understand your feeling like you're going to die. It's this smothering, all-consuming feeling of dread and fear, right? It's the most hideous thing on Earth, and after month after month of it, of course it becomes very depressing.

And I feel exactly like you do, in terms of getting really angry about the idea of ADs, but I need something to clear the symptoms out of the way so I can function on a daily basis.

As for ADs, I've tried low doses of Lexapro and Zoloft and they both made my symptoms worse, so I guess the SNRIs are my next option. The whole idea makes my skin crawl.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is the connection between suppressed feelings of abandonment and the symptoms. I've been feeling especially awful since the beginning of March. At this time, my parents left for their two month vacation, my T went away for a week and my best friend also went away. At the time, of course, I didn't feel abandoned, but I'm wondering if that's my repression at work, but the feelings are down there, trying to get out, and my mind is using the symptoms as a response to them. There's no question that I was emotionally abandoned by my parents, especially my father, but I never felt it. So if there's any truth to the idea that feelings are timeless, it makes sense that suppressed feelings of abandonment today are reaching back to childhood, creating a mighty big pool of feelings somewhere. I'd like to know what you guys think.

Thanks for replies, TN and Catgirl. Here's to all of us here feeling much better this time next year if not sooner.

Russ

Hi Russ and Catgirl....some background on my anti-med feelings. And not just ADs all meds except for the very basic antibiotics, motrin etc which I do use.

Both my parents are deceased now. My mom, when she was starting to become ill was given Lexapro and she had some really nasty side effects both on the med and when she had to get off of the med. So when my T suggested Lexapro I got really angry with him. The other part of the story is... my Dad was always also anti-med for anything. He would suffer with arthritis and not take his Celebrex because it had too many side effects. Long story short... he fell and broke his leg badly and had to have surgery. Because he was elderly (but otherwise in very good health) he had some heart arythmia after surgery and so was given a drug called Amiodarone. It killed him. He... out of the blue... developed a lung disease (he never smoked). He lived 6 months after taking the drug with oxygen and in complete disability. We later found out that this drug should not be given to older adults and ONLY as a last resort drug when nothing else works. The doctors had never tried anything else on him. And so...I have a total distrust of drugs and doctors and this is something my T works on with me. Just another anxiety to add to my list.

The first time my T suggested meds was just one year ago. I had been seeing him only for 2 months at the time and had made very little deep progress. I was still testing him out and trying to decide if he was 'safe". I was also struggling with my transference, not really understanding it. Since then we have covered a lot of ground and discovered so many things that contribute to my anxiety/depression. Mostly my attachment issues. My T does admit that I have made a lot of progress in changing my life and in my reactions but I still have a way to go. We both know this. But I do feel (and he agrees) that if I had just taken the anti-anxiety or AD meds one year ago... I would have had some relief and probably left therapy never getting to the "real" reasons for my overwhelming anxiety and once off meds I would have relapsed. Russ... much like your T has said about "losing the trail".

I can be a very strong and obstinate person and perhaps those qualities also allow me to function well despite the anxiety which I won't let defeat me. It's sort of like a battle in my mind and I want to win it. I also don't accept help very easily and just talking to my T and allowing him to be there for me has been a huge step for me. I'm starting to really believe that he WILL be there and that it's OK to ask for his help and that I deserve to even have the help in the first place. And he has learned that I need reassurance over and over again and he has come through with that now that he understands my unsecure attachment issues.

Russ I know that awful horrible anxiety that you speak of. Only someone who has been there can understand. And yes Catgirl... the roller coaster ride can really make life unbearable. In my case, the depression is not so debilitating as the anxiety. It just sort of kicks in every once in awhile.

I do hope we find the answers we need but at least we have this place to come and find comfort in the meantime.

TN

TN,

I can see how you'd have issues with meds. I have a similar feeling about ativan. When my mom was dying, she was having seizures. They gave her some ativan. She had always had an adverse reaction to ativan. She would take it after radiation, and be out of it for a few days. The ativan stopped the seizures, which I was grateful for, but she never woke up after taking it. Part of me blames the ativan; but I know that if she had woken up, she would have been in excruciating pain. (Writing about this is bringing all of the memories and pain back. I miss her so much! And I miss my T when I miss my mom. At least I get to see my T on Monday. I'll never see my mom again.)

So, I understand your objections to meds.

Would you consider looking into the enzymes? Apparently, they're natural. If you want info, maybe I could ask my friend's friend who gave them to her for a website or something. Just a thought. I'm not trying to fix it or anything, so don't feel obligated.

I hope you find something that works, whatever it may be.

And, you're right. I'm so happy to have found this place. I wish I had found it 2 years ago.

Just wanted to say that this is an awesome topic and discussion and I've learned a lot. Thanks!