Hmm, I never noticed this until you mentioned it. I always assumed it was because he was thinking. I don't make eye contact when I'm thinking or considering an answer, so it seemed normal to me.

Now that I think about it, looking down while answering a question seems a little dishonest or deceitful. Are they trying to hide something?

Hmm... I don't know. I didn't actually notice.
I will try to pay attention next time, but as far as I remember, my T is looking away when he is thinking. I think when he answers, he is looking at me. Sometimes he would be talking looking away, like last time, it was just bla, bla, bla... and I didn't quite feel him being present and really seeing me. I have to point this out and give out to him next time.
But when he says something important he usually looks at me, I always look at him when he is talking, I look for his eyes and I want to see that he really means it. I can't say that I always see him as 100% true, but I guess he is trying, and he is not always at his best.

Hi FOT

Interesting thread - my T looks at me the whole time. I can't maintain that gaze but she's always looking intently at me when I do

Dragonfly, really interested by what you posted about direction of gaze. Do you know what other directions might mean? . . . upwards or to the left? Just curious

starfish

I think you can google this stuff, about the eyes when people are in conversation, I even saw something (I think it was on youtube) about it. It's really interesting and can tell you a lot about someone. I'll see if I can find what I'm talking about when I have a bit more time and post a link here. Thanks for mentioning this! I'm going to pay more attention to my T now and see what I can make of her eye movements and what it's really saying.

Hi Free...
My T usually looks at me, but sometimes I will ask him a question and he looks up and to the right. He says he is checking his body before responding. I think he thinks the answeres are somewhere in his body- that his body holds memories of stuff.
Interesting topic- thanks.

From what I've heard and read on several occasions, looking down can either mean that someone is talking to themselves or they are accessing internal emotions. I'd imagine that either one is very possible when it comes to our therapists. This is a very interesting topic to bring up!

Here is a website that talks about eye movement and I found it interesting. It's making me more interested in learning about body language in general. http://www.nlp-mentor.com/eye-body-language.html

Thats kind of interesting because I have noticed that one of my old therapists used to do that to me all the time. My psychiatrist that I have been seeing for 10 years looks at me the whole time. It sometimes drives me crazy. But especially when he is giving an emotional response he makes sure he is looking at me because he wants me to see his response and his emotions. Sometimes it really helps and makes me feel good that he has not problem talking about any issue while looking directly at me, but sometimes I wish he would look away because I dont want to him to see exactly what I am feeling and I am scared of seeing his feelings.

Pippi-
that how it is for me, and I couldn't agree with you more.

My t says that he processes information more kinesthetically. He says he has a felt sense of things. I will check his eyes on that.
cool info.

Ugh. Anyone else worried that their T is reading their visual cues now? I am!!

SB, I've been worried about that for a while now. But then what DON'T I worry about when it comes to my T?! LOL!

I know my T and P watch my body language and they will point it out sometimes if they notice something and I refuse to admit how I am feeling or that I am anxious, cause they say they can read anything I am feeling, which makes me want to try to hide it even more...but they always know.

Hi Pippi,
Now that would just piss me off. (can I say that here) Especially since so often I don't know how I am feeling.
I would have to rely on my body language to tell my T how I am feeling so he can tell me? That is just wrong, and way to open for interpretation.
Hele

Hi Pippi,

I can totally empathize with that. Today in group therapy, the topic regarding me smiling to cover up my feelings was brought up, and it was noted several times throughout the session. That's only one aspect of the human body, but I knew they were watching, and I wanted to crawl into a hole! Body language is a big thing in my group, too...even today, there were a couple times when the group leaders asked us if we noticed so-and-so's body language when they started talking about something, etc. It makes me so self-conscious! I'd rather they not say anything and pretend they don't notice, because then I get to proceed with self-disclosure at my own pace. When they pick out things like that, it makes me feel pressured to reveal more, because, heck. They've already read it in my body language, haven't they?

quote:

Originally posted by seablue:
Ugh. Anyone else worried that their T is reading their visual cues now? I am!!

Yeah. I've been called out on smiling (while telling a "sad" story), squirming, fidgeting, staring into space... They are definitely paying attention.

I got snagged early on for my habit of laughing or cracking a joke in order to avoid when I was angry. Yeah, they're paying attention. Which really worries me about the times my thoughts wander in certain directions...

Hi Blackbird,

Group therapy is tough. I have so much trouble opening up. We've completed 7 sessions, we have 3 more, and I still have to be prompted by one of the group leaders to say anything, because even if I want to speak up, I can't make myself form the words. A couple weeks ago I compared it to jumping off a cliff.

As far as the smiling thing goes, I think you were pretty accurate, Blackbird, in using the word scrutiny. 2 of the more vocal group members said that me smiling when I'm talking about something serious annoys them, which is fine. But even after I said, quite openly (for me at least), that it's a habit I got in to, and it's very hard to keep myself from using that as a method of avoidance, I was just told to not smile. That's soo much easier said than done. It's really a matter of trust. When I was in individual therapy, I eventually got to the point where I could really get serious and not smile. But it took time, and I just don't have enough of it with group. I did feel scrutinized, because I felt a lack of understanding, even from the group leaders, about WHY I smile.

I have found myself criticizing myself a lot more since I've started group therapy. A whole heap of my insecurities have come to the front, which is probably the point, but it bothers me because I need a lot more time than 3 more sessions to work it out (and to trust the other members enough to speak freely). Last week one of the leaders said that even if we only leave group with new questions about the quirks in our behavior, then that was a success. Well, questions drive me nuts. I can't just skip and whistle away from group with questions bouncing around in my head! Last session gave me the motivation to send an email to my T at the university to see if she could refer me to someone off campus where I could get consistent and longer term therapy. It was only 2 sentences, but it got my point across. I sent it on Wednesday evening, and I have yet to hear back, but considering the holiday weekend and that the university has been closed and will be until Wednesday, I probably won't hear back until the end of the week. I'm so nervous, and I think part of the reason is that this is the first time I've asked her for anything at all. Even knowing what I want and need is a tremendous challenge, so asking for it is even harder. I wish I had had the courage to ask if there was any way to continue therapy with her with payment (because the 10 sessions per year we get are free), but I just couldn't make myself do it. I think I'm afraid of not only being dependent upon someone, but also showing dependence. A part of that is probably because I'm afraid I'll make a fool out of myself when that person leaves…whenever that happens I always feel stupid, because I tell myself that I should have known from the beginning that it was pointless of me to count on them, because what reason do they have for staying around?

Anyway, I kind of went off on a tangent there. Just a quick interesting note about body language, though…On my trip this weekend, a group of us were having a conversation and we started talking about smiling or laughing in situations that REALLY do not call for that. There were some very shocking examples from a couple of my friends! It was so surprising how many people use that defense as a way to deal with things.

Hi K!

I just wanted to chime in here and applaud you for doing group therapy. Sheesh, I doubt I could do it! It sounds SUPER tough!! I thought individual therapy was hard, but trusting several people with my stuff and having to open myself up to more than one person (who is a professional and keeps their judgment and criticism mostly out of sight) would be excruciating! I hope you realize that you are doing some really amazing stuff for yourself by going, and yeah, jumping off a cliff is a good analogy!

I'm appalled that a couple of your group members would be so rude as to scrutinize you and say that your smiling while talking about serious things annoys them. Not everyone is comfortable sharing serious personal information and we all grow in our level of trust at our own rate, depending on the support of those we are dependent upon for support! The fact that your group leaders are included among those that are not understanding you here really bothers me. I'm so sorry, as I'm sure that is difficult for you. It does take time to work through these quirks of ours, but you realize that it's a trust thing, and the more you work at it, the easier it gets. Awareness is a big thing!

I really hope you can manage to get some one-on-one therapy with a great T. Questions drive me nuts, too, and once that can of worms gets opened it really needs to be looked at and not just set on the counter top and left there. Good for you for pursuing something, and please don't stop until you get what you need! I know dependence is scary (I'm struggling with it daily!!!) but it really is how we grow through our therapy.

And yes, A LOT of people smile and laugh when it is inappropriate socially to do so. My T told me it's a nervous system response to things that are uncomfortable for us that we don't know how to deal with otherwise. Sad that we aren't taught how to deal with our emotions in healthy ways, isn't it?

Take care, and keep working at getting what you want!!

MTF

Kashley - you poor thing - that is just not fair! Group therapy is a really hard thing and to feel ganged up on doesn't make it better. In my experience (and I have only been in 1 group), the most difficult part was feeling I was in individual therapy in front of 8 other people, then when the T was done with me, I had to listen to the other 8 judge me about how much I exercise & why I had passed out in the shower that morning. I quit my group -pretty famous for quitting things actually.
But really wonder what the point of T's bringing body language to our attention is? It it something other than to just bring it in to our awareness?

I can't tell you all how much the support means. Having not been in group therapy before, I only know a little bit about it from the small amount of stuff I've read. So being validated in my feelings by you all on here is 10x more supportive than actual group therapy. The thing with the other members saying that my smiling annoys them...I think, technically, that that is an OK interaction, so long as it is explored and built upon constructively. But, since the criticism was simply left as criticism and not as a building block, I think that is where the mis-step occurred. It's just frustrating, because I don't know what they expect me to do about it. I can't flip a switch and not smile like they're asking.

That sounds a bit like a nightmare, Seablue... I would have been quitting right there with you! That sounds awful. It's amazing how damaging some "therapeutic" experiences can be.

As far as pointing out body language, well, I think that's a very good question. Therapy doesn't seem like the place where we should be self-conscious about ourselves, especially something as automatic as body language. About 5 sessions or so into my individual therapy, my therapist reflected back to how I was in the first session, when I was having a hard time being serious about things, which I now know was my effort to keep things on a more superficial level. She said a little bit about my body language then, but never mentioned anything about it when we were in the here-and-now. So, I never got self-conscious about it, because I never felt as if I were being judged on the spot. But, when it is pointed out right then and there, I find it hurtful, actually, to the healing process, because it's just reinforcing insecurities. At least for me.

I think there are times when noting body language is helpful, though. For example, one day in group, one of the members mentioned that another member's body language got defensive when one of the leaders was saying something. It was helpful to him in the sense that he realized he was unconsciously blocking out something that could possibly help him.

One of the (many!) things that made me terminate with a T I’d seen for only seven sessions was his sudden irrelevant and irritating interruption of me in mid flow by copying the way I was (apparently) waving my hands around and saying, what are you doing this for? Not only was it so blatantly a therapist ‘trick’ but he did it at such a stupid point that it showed quite clearly he not only wasn’t listening to me but that he was relying on the therapist’s stock of tricks and techniques to bluff his way through a session. It certainly shut me up and left me quite bewildered because not only had I no idea of ‘why’ I was using my hands to illustrate a point but I also hadn’t a clue what he thought it was revealing about me. I was also really PISSED OFF that he’d so completely sidetracked me from what I was talking about (he didn’t return to that at all) that the session came to a total standstill for several minutes. Moreover it left me feeling quite paranoid that I was revealing something deeply meaningful in a negative way about myself that everyone else could see but of which I was completely oblivious. GRRRR (covering up the fear).

I could understand therapists picking up on physical cues that might indicate a feeling or attitude of which we aren’t aware and that might (note the use of ‘might’) serve as a springboard for trying to bring that feeling into the open, but to focus on physical cues (like Kashley with your smiling) solely in order to make the person ‘aware’ of it without keying the observation into what’s actually going on BEHIND the smile smacks of power playing. Like, what earthly use is it to anyone to be told oh do you know that you always smile even when you’re talking about painful stuff? All that serves to do is make me excruciatingly self conscious about how I appear to others. At best physical cues are useful for someone else to be aware IN ORDER TO get a better understanding of what’s going on in the client, NOT to confront the client as if it’s something they are supposed to consciously change.

Hm anyone getting the idea that I’m deeply uncomfortable with having mannerisms and physical quirks picked up on for the sake of it lol.

Whenever my P commented on my body language, it was always to show either that he was in tune with how I was feeling, or to point out feelings I have which I wasn't conscious of.

For example, I also tend to smile a lot. Especially when I'm nervous or feeling hurt. It covers up my pain and insecurity; it's a veneer. His pointing it out after I told him a sad story was a way of telling me that I don't have to put on a happy face for him, I can be real and feel my sadness.

Another example was when I was discussing my marriage early on in therapy. He pointed out my squirming and asked if this topic made me uncomfortable. I hadn't even been aware of it! But yes, I was uncomfortable talking about it, and uncomfortable with the state of my marriage.

So, he wasn't just pointing these things out to make me feel self conscious. If your Ts are doing that, it's just mean!

quote:

I could understand therapists picking up on physical cues that might indicate a feeling or attitude of which we aren’t aware and that might (note the use of ‘might’) serve as a springboard for trying to bring that feeling into the open, but to focus on physical cues (like Kashley with your smiling) solely in order to make the person ‘aware’ of it without keying the observation into what’s actually going on BEHIND the smile smacks of power playing. Like, what earthly use is it to anyone to be told oh do you know that you always smile even when you’re talking about painful stuff? All that serves to do is make me excruciatingly self conscious about how I appear to others. At best physical cues are useful for someone else to be aware IN ORDER TO get a better understanding of what’s going on in the client, NOT to confront the client as if it’s something they are supposed to consciously change.

Amen, Lamplighter! You put that beautifully. Kashley, I think the point they should have focused on was that you were actually talking about the painful stuff. You were doing the work, and that's what's important. And still very impressive to me, being that it was a group setting. **shudder** You're WAY braver than me!

SG

quote:

Originally posted by Strummergirl:
Kashley, I think the point they should have focused on was that you were actually talking about the painful stuff. You were doing the work, and that's what's important.

Thank you, SG...I think that is more along the lines of what my individual therapist was doing. It didn't matter at the time that I was smiling while I disclosed information. All that mattered was that I was actually disclosing, and, eventually, the amount that I was smiling through all of it decreased a little bit.

You all give me much, much more credit than is due. I keep thinking that it's probably my fault that I'm having so much trouble with group. I think that I am probably not putting in enough effort or taking enough risks to gain what I could. My individual T thought that group would be so helpful for me, so I'm almost entirely convinced that I'm doing something that's keeping it from being beneficial to me! -sigh-

You all are too kind to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Free-on-Thursdays:
I bet they read body language more than we do! When you think about it, they spend their lives observing behavior.

You are right as, reading body language is an art that is very important for anyone to better understand people.

Thanks

dayspringcenter.com

I've experienced the therapist looking down or away quite often. Anytime he's giving me a long answer/observation, he will not look at me at all, sometimes closes his eyes & on occasion even turns his chair so he is no longer facing me.

Last session I noticed he purposefully slid himself so far down in his chair he looked to be about to fall off onto the floor. I mentioned to him that I noticed it and he just gave me his usual "grunt"/"hmm" noise. (I'll have to go over the recording to see what part of the covnersation prompted him to do that)
I can't seem to find anything in my internet research about what sliding all the way down in your seat means--anyone have any thoughts on this? I find the subject of body language fascinating anyway, and this is just renewing my interest.

Hey WLOH,

That's kind of odd about your T. I know I sure as heck wouldn't know what to think or do if my T turned completely away from me. I'm completely speculating, but what I think of when you say that your T slides down in his chair makes me think of a kid at a dinner table, sliding down his chair trying to hide behind the table. It sounds like something that could maybe be equated to someone slouching their shoulders when standing? I'm not sure.

I also find body language interesting - I'm actually going to be taking a class on it in a couple semesters. I wanted to get it in sooner, but I can't! So I'm just going to have to wait. Oh well.

I cant look at my T for most of the session usually. Im not good at eye contact and never have been. But the few times I do loook at my T. She is either writing in her little folder thing or shes looking straight at me. ...I feel like im under a microscope lol. But she usually has her legs crossed and holding her folder up high enough to write. Thats about it.

quote:

Originally posted by seablue:
DGUOM,
Your pic breaks my heart - I just want to hold her!!

I hope it isnt too upsetting!. I guess the pic represents what I feel most of the time, so I use it.

DGUOM,
Your picture breaks my heart.
Me too I want to hold her- because that was me.

WOW. The thing about sliding all the way down in your chair...
I did this at my last session, and after the session was over, when I was thinking back over everything, I felt SO EMBARRASSED that I had acted this way. I felt like a little pouty kid. The things I was talking about were EXHAUSTING and FRUSTRATING, and I did not even really realize I did it until after. My T just looked at me and let me keep talking/pouting.

I don't know why your T would do this though unless maybe he was getting some of these feelings from the things you were talking about? I don't know.

Just thought it was interesting to see that someone had brought up the subject since it has been on my mind. I always worry about everything after the sessions and think 'why did I do/say that?' oh well....

quote:

I hope it isnt too upsetting!. I guess the pic represents what I feel most of the time, so I use it.

It is not too much for me. I think it's a perfect representation of how I am guessing many of us felt at that age and still feel much of the time. Maybe looking at her will help us be gentler to the little people parts of ourselves.

quote:

Maybe looking at her will help us be gentler to the little people parts of ourselves.

Yes- I like that Seablue!

Just to follow up---T is still sliding down the chair, but now when he comes back up, he puts his head down and twiddles this thumbs. Yes, twiddles his thumbs! Why doesn't he just hold up a sign saying "you are boring the sh*t out of me!" lol. I guess I'm boring. Either that or he's trying to detach from me due to a recent diagnosis. *sigh*

BTW @ Jane--I think it's totally ok for us as patients to do things like sliding down in the chair, I wouldn't be embarrassed about it.

I noticed my P beginning first session and I didn't have a clue what he was like did this.
A topic came up he was trying to respond to.
He took a deep breath and held it while his eyes were closed, then exhaled loudly. I thought maybe he was trying to get me to relax by doing this. Think it's just his way of processing his thoughts before he responds.

I agree with Free-on-Thursdays, perhaps all of the sliding around isn't related to you at all.

I have been thinking about what body language my T uses. Most of the time, when/if I pay attention I notice that she is almost always mirroring what I do. I always take my shoes off and curl up on the couch. The other day, I caught notice of the fact that she had her feet tucked under the same way that I did and was resting her chin on the same arm that I was. We looked the same. I think she often does this to "feel" what I'm feeling.

One day she seemed really tired and like she could take a nap if given the chance. I said something to her about it and she agreed that she was super tired and she could take a nap, but I didn't feel like she wasn't tracking with me. She was very attuned, just tired.

My t usually watches me when we talk- a bit to heavy on the eye contact sometimes. It can be unnerving. His body is upright and slightly leaning toward me. If I ask him a question, he looks straight ahead or slightly to the right and says something like-" I am scanning my body to see if this fits" or sonething like that.

^^ scanning his body? What do you think that means? That's interesting.

The more I think about my T sliding down in the chair, you all are probably right, he is just tired. I'm always his first patient of the day and he's sipping coffee the entire time, so i guess he's waking up. I tend to assume everyone's up at 4am like me.