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My husband and I have been together for about 5 years. We have always had disagreements about things, mostly the over-involvement of his mother. She has done countless things over our relationship to undermine me and make my husband "choose" between us, and he has always chosen her. He says I am fighting an imaginary monster, that she doesn't intentionally do anything to hurt me or be manipulative, and often brings up the excuse that she's had brain surgery (it was 15 years ago, and she's as sharp as a whip).

I will provide an example for background info, and I apologize because I did try to make it brief:

A few years ago at Christmas, we had just spent 3 full days with her and her family. We spent the night every night, had big meals, politely excused her tantrums and abusive behavior, and just smiled and focused on the good before saying goodbye and driving across town to my parent's house. The very same day we left her house to spend equal time with my parents, she began calling and texting my husband, wanting to know if everyone, including my parents, wanted to go to a movie that night. My parents and I were annoyed because she always wanted to "share" my parent's time after hers was done, but my husband was getting increasingly antsy and irritated that we "weren't really doing anything" over at my parent's house, so what was the harm in us all going to a movie together? So we agreed to keep the peace. But we also agreed - including my husband - we are just going to the movie; no pie, coffee, or whatever else she will undoubtedly invite us to afterward. Just a movie. We got to the movie and she had already bought everyone's ticket. We tried to pay her back, as did my parents, but she absolutely refused. This is a common thing with her, insisting that she pay for your meal, ticket, etc., and refusing to ever let you pay her back. And it's not "you buy this time I'll get next", it's every time, and it's a fight that she rarely loses, and if she does, she sneaks money into your purse or pocket later. It seems nice, I know, but it's...pushy. She does it because she intends to "cash in" on her good deed later. Sure enough, after the movie let out we were walking through the parking lot going to our cars, and she invited us over for pie and stocking opening. My parents politely declined, as it was nearing midnight, said they were tired, and thanked her again for the movie. She turned to my husband and I, and began speaking in this tiny, sad, little voice. "Are you going to come over for pie and open your stockings?" We said thanks, but it's late and we're tired too, so we'll do stockings another time. We even offered to come over in the morning, which was still technically during the time we had agreed to spend with my parents, and open them then. But that wasn't what she wanted, so she persisted, "I worked so hard on those stockings. I put so many nice things in there. Can't you just come over for a piece of pie and open them?" Having seen her do things like this several times before, I was determined to put my foot down this time. I told her we appreciated the invitation, but it was late, we had just spent 3 days with her, and it was unfair to leave my parents during the time we had promised them. I also said if we had known there were still stockings left to open, we would have done it before we left her house that morning. She glared daggers at me. She spoke nothing to me, but physically stepped in between my husband and I, and turned her back to me, looked up at him, and again spoke in the tiny, sad, baby voice, "I just worked so hard on those stockings...can't you please just come over? Molly and Finn (our niece and nephew) will be so disappointed if you don't. I told them you were coming over." And that was it, my husband looked at me, angered at his position "in the middle", and said "Why can't we just go over there? Can we just go over there?" I was furious, but I tried to keep my cool. I said, "Sure". We walked to the car. We fought all the way on the drive over there. I couldn't believe he let her throw a tantrum and get her way with it, when she had just had three full days with us no less. During my parent's time no less! He couldn't believe I was so heartless that I would be upset at him or his poor mom and her midnight bonus stockings.

We got over there, and not one person could look me in the eye. I got a pretty good sense that I had been drug through the mud before my arrival. We opened the stockings. Mine had a wind-up plastic monkey toy, a sticky notepad, a snowflake spatula, and a $5 Starbucks gift card. My husband's contained a $100 Visa gift card, a vintage license plate frame for his vintage car, a framed photo of him and her from his first Christmas, and some trinkets. I will never forget this night, and how it was pretty much the last time we ever tried to stand up to her, because it was so scary for him and miserable for me.

I have been trying to get my husband to set boundaries with her ever since, we've even moved two states away, but he still views her actions as harmless. We are living apart now, she has rented him a house because I asked him to leave after his latest "choice" to defend her got way out of hand. It all started because she has already undermined my one simple plan for the upcoming Christmas holiday. It wasn't a big deal to my husband of course, but it really hurt me. We don't have a lot of money, but there was one thing I wanted to buy for all of our family, it's a documentary that my husband and I were in. It had nothing to do with her. She kept wanting to know when she could get a copy and I told her I would be getting her one as soon as they were available. Well, she went behind my back after I told her that and emailed the producers, flattered them with congratulations and guilted them with "I'm so proud of my son, I would love a copy, etc." so of course they sent her one. She then proceeded to show the movie to every person I planned to buy a copy for. I realize she didn't know I was planning to get them for Christmas, but my point is she just can't stay out of anything where her precious son is concerned. And I couldn't even believe she was capable of pulling this off, but like I said, she always gets what she wants.

We just went to our first counseling session tonight, and I feel like the counselor "sided" with my husband. I told her about my concerns that he always chooses his mother, who is meddlesome and unbalanced, and he defended her and even used profanity when speaking to me, saying I was obsessed with drama and putting devil horns on his mother when she just tries to be nice. The counselor said to me, after I told her about the latest fight with her getting the movie we were in, "So, you took it personally because this independent woman, who is an adult, didn't let you tell her when she would get the DVD, but rather took matters into her own hands?" I mean, how did I get turned out as the controlling one here? But then the counselor said she wants to see me individually, said she felt I had some unresolved emotional issues, and all but ignored what I shared about my concerns with my MIL and her hold over my husband.

I told the counselor that I feel my husband's relationship with his mother causes him to be distant from me, and obviously, it's gotten so bad now we're living apart.

I would just like some feedback on all of this. Based on this example, and trust me there are countless others like it, am I wrong to want this relationship between my husband and his mother to change? I feel she is taking my place as wife, and my husband can't see it. I really do feel the proper word here is "can't". He "can't" see it, he has been living this way for so long, living to make her happy. Am I being selfish? Crazy? Unreasonable?

And what are your thoughts on what the counselor said? Her interpretation of the DVD incident? That she would like to see me, while seemingly ignoring the issues with my husband and MIL? I definitely have some emotions backed up, but it's because my husband refuses to talk to me or address this, and my MIL rolls over me to do whatever she pleases. I just feel like no one hears me.
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Hi caspermom,

I don't think we've met before. Welcome to the forum.

I heard you. I can see clearly how MIL actions would be infuriating. But even worse would be the feeling that DH won't put boundaries in place. I think I feel for him though because in my moms better days (she is ill now). She could become very like his and even though you are an adult now it is hard not to feel like a child around them.

We've not started couples therapy yet. My T really wants us to but I'm too scared yet. I would say give it a little more time. Usually therapists will get a more complete picture of what is happening after a few sessions. That may be part of why she wants to see you seperately.

You can't change the dynamic between your husband and his mom. Only he can do that and he has to really want to because it is really hard to change that after a lifetime. The best you can do is put your own boundaries in place and stick to them.

I don't know that I am much help. I just wanted you to know you've been heard. And understood.

Jillann
Hi Caspermom,

I don't think you're being selfish, crazy or unreasonable. "Living to make her happy" kind of hits the nail on the head.

I feel for you both because from your description it sounds like MIL has been making your husband responsible for her emotional well-being for a very long time.

When that is done to you as a very young child, you have no choice but to comply because that same parent is literally responsible for your survival. You learn to do as you are told because that means you receive the care and nurture you need. The alternative feels far worse. Unfortunately that sets up a very difficult pattern to break in adulthood. Your husband probably has no bedrock to build boundaries on, if he's never been allowed to set them and never allowed to 'win'.

It is hard to make a judgement on your first session. Challenging one or both partners in the first session is a delicate business. Success of therapy (both couples, family and individual) tends to hang on whether you can form a good working relationship with the counsellor, so many counsellors choose to spend some sessions working out what is going on, and listening to the couple's history before offering up challenge.

What is the situation now? Will the counsellor see your husband too for some individual sessions? Or is it just you? Will you ever go back to having joint sessions? In of itself, having some sessions of your own does not sound like a bad thing, to help you deal with how this makes you feel but it depends on whether you feel you can work with this particular counsellor. If you do choose to go back and see her, I think it would be pretty important to share with her that you felt judged.

The counsellor that you are seeing? Do you know what form of couples counselling she practices?
Thank you both so much for your responses. It's nice to meet both of you, and yes Jillian, I am new here. This is my first post. I found your little online community here last night after our couples session. I read several posts, and it just seemed like a nice, respectful place where I might find some insight and understanding.

Mallard, the situation now is that he has moved out on a more semi-permanent basis. At counseling, he revealed that his parents have rented a house for him. The counselor also offered individual or joint sessions to both of us, although specifically saying she wanted to see me for emotions and past issues, but as far as I can tell from speaking to him after the session, he has no plans to make an appointment for himself, and seems to be under the impression that she will "call him in" if she really wants to see him. So, just knowing what I know about him, that probably means he will not be going back unless I make an appointment for him. I have reservations about doing this, because I already handle so many "responsibilities" for him, and I feel that is part of the problem. I'm not his mom. If he wants to take this seriously, and acknowledge his stake in the problem, I feel he can take the initiative to make his own appointment. I am going back tonight at 5 p.m. for an individual session. I certainly intend to do a bit more "vetting" of this therapist with regard to her choice of form, and let her know that as of now I do feel judged and not quite sure I understand the reasoning behind her reactions last night. Reactions which I feel were made with too little information on the situation, really. I must be able to trust her, and right now I don't. So for tonight, it's just me. My husband said last night that he would go to joint or individual sessions, so again it seems he is willing, but as I said before, I'll likely have to make the appointment and make sure it works with his schedule. I also told him that regardless of what this therapist said or seemingly dismissed, things had to change with his mom and the way he treats me, or I would not be able to stay in the marriage. He said he understood, and again repeated that he was willing to attend individual or couples therapy, whatever was needed. It just seemed a contradiction to the way he acted in session, so defensive, controlling the conversation and blaming me for misunderstanding and demonizing his poor mom. Is that the way someone acts when they are open to changes being made? For the record, I have never said he must choose exclusively between us or cut her out of his life completely, never, not once. I have only asked for boundaries, and I've been ignored or called crazy for 5 years. I have only recently (two weeks ago) cut his mom off personally, because it has proven to be the only way she will understand that I am not willing to be hurt by her any longer, and I don't like the way she butts into our life constantly. But even then, she made herself the victim, complaining to my husband that I have been mean to her, which caused him to get upset and yell at me for it all.

In addition to this problem between my husband and I, he is now worried about me "repairing a relationship" with her. Frankly, she hasn't cared anything about my feelings for 5 years, and at least for now I am happy with my decision not to have a relationship with her.

I recently read a book by Kenneth Adams, "When He's Married to Mom", it's about mother enmeshed men and it's fantastic. I had to read it twice, and I am more certain than ever that this is precisely what has happened with my husband and his mother from a very young age, his entire life I'm sure. I will bring the book with me tonight to my session, I just hope she will listen to me.
CasperMom, what is going with his father? You haven't mentioned his role in this. Is he still in the picture? I was just curious because I would think if his father is around, she probably has him wrapped around her finger also. I don't have any words of advice but your story made me angry for you. I can't stand women like your MIL. She can't see beyond her own needs and refuses to see how she is undermining her sons marital relationship. He is choosing his mom. Sorry.

I have heard this story before and not to be a downer, guys like this usually don't change. For your sake I hope he does.
Hi Becca. Excellent point to ask about his dad. I was just rereading my posts and thinking to myself "I make it sound like his mom is single".

His father is still very much in the picture, but you're right - completely wrapped around her finger. She treats him terribly in front of others, in fact when we are all together for the holidays or other occasions it is him who catches the heaviest load of abuse from her. He has hearing issues and wears aids, but sometimes it's still difficult for him to hear her talking when there's a room full of people and the tv blaring. She screams at him "are you listening to me?!", yells "what is wrong with you?!", rolls her eyes, talks behind his back, and is just generally awful to him. And he just laughs it off nervously. He also lavishes her with expensive gifts, toy dogs that never seem to live very long, and fancy vacations. Even though it doesn't affect me directly, I can only compare their relationship to second-hand smoke, it's toxic and I don't wish to be around it.

The father also does her bidding when she isn't getting her way, surely in an effort to just make her happy so he can have some peace, but it's still enabling. My husband describes him as "easy-going", but I feel he is a doormat and an enabler. My husband is too when it comes to her, for that matter.

About six months ago, both of our fathers were here helping us install new kitchen cabinets. They were here for about a week, and every day my MIL would call my FIL, every few hours, and he would have to drop what he was doing, go outside, and talk to her. It was ridiculous. It was disruptive, and every time he went outside, everyone else had to stop working too because the nature of things they were doing required mostly that everyone be present holding something, leveling, etc. Well they ended up needing to stay one extra day because on just the second day, we ran into an unforeseen repair. It took a whole day to repair, and we all talked at dinner that night about it pushing the entire project back a day, so they would just stay an extra day. Both dads are retired, I really didn't think much of it, and neither of them acted like it mattered. Well, my FIL started getting really antsy the day before the original "end date", he had told my husband that MY dad needed to get back the next day, so they were going to have to wrap it up or leave the rest for us to finish ourselves. My husband told me that, and I thought that sounded odd since we weren't done and my dad hadn't mentioned needing to leave, so I just asked my dad. He laughed and said, "I think HE needs to get home to his wife, she calls him every few hours wanting to know if we're almost done, and I've heard her telling him she's got things for him to do there". Ah. Of course. So I told my husband that my dad did NOT need to leave, and planned to stay until our kitchen was functioning. My husband seemed puzzled because "why would my dad lie to me?", but he was also bothered that his dad HAD seemingly lied, so we decided to bring it up at dinner that night and see what happened. My husband and I sat there with our two dads, and I said, "Do you guys need to get back tomorrow?" My dad said, "I don't need to get back, I plan on staying here until you guys have a functional kitchen. It should just be one more day". HIS dad said, "Oh! You don't need to get back? I thought you needed to leave tomorrow! I know (my wife) and (your wife) were expecting us and that's what we told them." My dad said, "Well, I've been talking to (my wife), and she knows we ran into an extra day of work, so like I said, I'm going to stay on tomorrow and we should be able to get everything done. If you need to leave, I understand you guys probably have things going on back at home and you should go on ahead." Well, long story longer, my FIL ended up staying, but when he called MIL to break the news to her, he made it sound like he had no idea and that we really needed him to stay. He was on the phone for a very long time, and we heard him repeating, "I know, I know! It's just an extra day, we're both staying. Oh yes, we're both staying." What was she asking him? I wondered. He really could have left if he needed to, we were just finishing the countertops which was far less complicated than hanging cabinets, but he wouldn't leave before my dad. It was just weird. Plus, that this grown man was nervous to tell his wife from the BEGINNING that we had run into an extra day of work, so he would be one more day away. I thought about the possibility that he didn't hear us when we were talking about an extra day, but he seemed involved in the conversation and on board. Plus, why he had to concoct this whole behind the scenes lie to make it seem my dad was the one who was needing to leave, only to end up calling MIL and claiming he had no idea and needed to stay and help was just, weird.

I agree with you, and I'm not overly optimistic that my husband will change. But I am pregnant, and trying to give it every chance possible. One way or another I will have these people in my life for a very long time. I would just rather it be a situation where my husband and I can find a way to work through this and be a strong couple independent of his mother. I still love him, and even though he hasn't been a very good husband, I believe that he loves me. This issue fools with our intimacy and trust, and is causing all sorts of problems. I know I have an uphill battle, but I'm willing to fight it if there's a chance.
Hi all, I just wanted to provide an update after my individual session last night. As it turns out, I completely misread T's motive for "challenging" me in the earlier couples session and also misread that she was siding with my husband. In fact, she apologized for doing that,but said she had no choice because of the huge power struggle that was going on between he and I. She said she could see emotions running over my face, but due to the combative atmosphere I wouldn't talk, and when I tried, he overpowered me. She said it was accomplishing nothing, so she was trying to wrap it up, and that's when I tried to defend myself with "my side" of the DVD incident. She said she wanted me to see my MIL as someone who simply wanted something, didn't care about my feelings on the matter, and wasn't going to give up control of the situation. Again, she said she was trying to wrap it up and stop the combat.

In individual session last night, I was able to speak freely and calmly without being interrupted, and I felt it was a very beneficial meeting overall for our first. I definitely find her easy to talk to and we seem to communicate well. I plan to go back alone. I'm not ready for another couples session yet after last time. I've decided to go ahead and take the initiative getting hubs in to see someone individually as well, otherwise it won't get done.

One thing we talked about this time was the fact that I had spoken to my sister in law prior to my husband moving out. I was seeking her insight on the relationship between her mom and brother. She wasted no time telling me that her mom was absolutely "crazy", and that she herself had to cut her off for about 6 months one year ago. She shared a few recent stories with me, and they were actually much worse than any I had experienced with MIL, but the bottom line was that she and I were seemingly on the same page with regard to her mom. She also said that her brother had "always been like this" with mom, and had always let the mom run over him and be over-involved in his life. She said she was very upset to hear he had let it affect our marriage, and planned to call him the next day to try and talk sense to him. We left with her telling me not to worry, we would get something figured out, and that we would talk again the next day.

Well, that was the last time I spoke with her. She never returned any of my calls or texts in the days to follow, and I finally got a text from my husband stating that "my sister and I are very concerned about your mental state, and the well-being of the baby. You need to stop this immediately. You need to seek immediate help for the problems under your control. This situation will go no further otherwise."

Needless to say, I was shocked. I know my husband must have said awful things about me to take her focus off of the problems being caused by my MIL and husband. I told T about this, and she said she found this troubling because she felt likely that he was triangulating and using character assassination against me. I just thought that was interesting. I had a good idea that was what he was doing too, but I didn't know the technical term.

I neglected to ask T, but does anyone know anything more about triangulation? Why people do it? Is it a sign of something deeper?
Hi Casper Mom,

Welcome Welcome to the forums. Triangulation is an unhealthy way to run relationships and a method highly favored in my family of origin. I refuse to participate. Tough habit to break though.

Triangulation basically means that you are going through another person in order to have a relationship with the third person. It saves you from the risks of direct confrontation and having to endure the consequences of things you need to say to the person. It tends to muddy up the relationships of everyone involved. It can also be used to play off one person against another, again to avoid the consequences of your own behavior. It took me a very long time to see how often I did this.

If I may gently point this out, you were using triangulation when you spoke to your sister-in-law. Your problem is with your mother-in-law and your husband but instead of addressing it directly with them, you went to your sister-in-law.

You have my deep sympathy, your MIL sounds like as nightmare, and it also sounds like your husband needs to learn to set boundaries and balance the needs of his present family against his relationship with his mother.

The problem in these situations is that so often, our impulse is to focus on the other people and "fix" them because they are the problem. But in truth the only person we can truly control and change is ourselves. I went through a long period where I took care of a lot of my husband's needs, including figuring out how he felt and expressing it for him. He didn't learn to do it for himself until I stopped. And why would he? It was a great situation for him. I was the one who was miserable, so I had the incentive to change. (There were other things that ran in the other direction. We both turned out to be part of the problem).

So, as counter-intuitive as it can feel, the best way to approach these kinds of situations is to focus on setting our own clear boundaries, so that other people have to deal with the consequences of their own actions.

For example, what would have happened if that night you had simply and calmly told your husband, "we have had time with your family, but now it is my turn to have time with my family. If you wish to return to your mother's to open stockings, fine, but I am going to my parent's now. See you later." and just left. In other words, don't argue, don't try to persuade (NOT possible with your MIL), just make a decision and carry it out. That way your husband would have to feel the results of his decisions, that he is choosing between his mother and his wife and when he chooses his mother, he puts space between him and his wife.

I am glad your therapist was able to explain her choices. If I may, there are two books I found really helpful when struggling with these kind of issues in my marriage:

Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life

Boundaries in Marriage

AG
You're exactly right, AG. I was triangulating with this sister. I would have never recognized that! It's such a tempting thing to do, sneaky instinct, especially since I felt so justified since trying for years to deal with it through husband and MIL. I'm so glad you pointed that out. Awareness of that will hopefully make it easier not to engage in or engage others in the future.

Stupid question now: Am I triangulating by posting in this manner on this forum?

And you're right about setting my own boundaries regardless of what hubs does. My dad tried to give me this advice after the movie incident actually, very similar to what you just wrote: be polite but firm in my decision, and then let him deal with his own decision. I have neglected to realize that I have control over myself in these situations, always feeling like I'm powerless. I've been so focused on getting hubs to see us as a "team", that I just follow wherever he and his mom lead me. Kicking and screaming, I might note, but I still follow. What's the point of kicking and screaming? Wow. I have behaved as a child. I have been complaining that my husband behaves as a child, but I certainly have too.

Thanks for the book recommendations, I will check both of them out. I definitely need help in this arena, as I seem to always let people push me far outside my comfort zone before I finally do something about it.

For example, with my MIL now, I have cut off all contact with her. Well, that's certainly a boundary I've set, and I'm happy with my decision to do so, but it's come only after years of feeling tormented by her, when really I was tormenting myself by ignoring my needs and hoping my husband would protect me and provide what I needed. And with my husband now, things have gotten so bad that I asked him to move out, but what would have happened if I just calmly stayed on my own path for all these years, instead of joining his and begging him to change. Who knows. We might not have gotten married, and that would have been how things ended up. Especially seeing as how we are likely getting a divorce now, it doesn't seem like such a bad alternative.

Fortunately and unfortunately, all I can do is move forward now. I do so love actually learning from mistakes, and until now this relationship has been 5 years of banging my head up against a wall with zero learning.
Hi CasperMom,
No, you are not triangulating by posting here. Your actions here are that you are seeking information for yourself, for learning and changing. Triangulation involves others for gaining something in a relationship.

Here we are learning, growing, changing and working on ourselves in order to be healthier and healthy within our relationships.

Does that help?

P.S. it is a good sign that your T. separated you and gave you a session alone. She is watching out for you, taking care of you so that you are heard. With your husband there, that could not happen.
Hi Rebuilding Me, yes, that makes perfect sense.

And now that I understand T's actions, I definitely see that she was protecting me. It was confusing at the time, though! Smiler

My next (and last, for awhile) appt with her will be next Friday. It's the only time she had available next week, and then I will be moving. I am already looking for someone to see after I make the move.

Big changes next week, but I think it's the right decision for me to start taking care of myself.
CasperMom, I'm glad that session went better and your T explained why she'd made the decisions she did.

Sometimes in couples you do get the situation where 'splitting' occurs. The idea in a nutshell is that we project characteristics on to our partners that we cannot tolerate very well in ourselves and then they behave accordingly - expressing it for us. And here's the best bit - then we criticise the person for behaving that way.

Reading some of your accounts and then AG's comment about expressing things for her husband made me wonder whether there is something similar going on here. It seems that you might be carrying a lot of the anger in the relationship - and it's probably not all yours.

If MIL is smothering and controlling then husband probably cannot do anger towards her even though her behaviour is pretty extreme -because he's been trained not to (the little vulnerable baby voice for example).

I realised that this was happening in my relationship too. It's a bloody hard job to step away from the angry feelings and do as AG suggests and take steps towards looking after yourself and recognising that you can only change yourself - because who doesn't want their partner to step up and support them? I found that after I could no longer be demonised as the 'angry one that you couldn't enter into a dialogue with' it got a lot easier to have a rational conversation in counselling about it all.

Dunno if that's helpful. It's a weird concept to grasp and I literally did not understand it when it was suggested to me! But I wondered if it would help.
That's interesting, Mallard. I definitely feel that I carry a lot of anger (and resentment), but I'm not the demon Wink that can't be talked to, that would be my husband. Are you saying that I could possibly be projecting this anger onto my husband, who then "reacts" to simple conversation attempts with fury? I would like to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

I'll give you another recent account in which I seemingly stepped on an emotional land mine when attempting to talk to hubs:

We were driving home after camping with friends. Both we and our friends have vintage VW buses that we camp in. Our friend, for the third trip in a row, had trouble getting his bus started in the morning and it took us several hours to get him going. So as we were driving home, I turned and said to hubs, "So, has he about had it with that bus?" Hubs replied "No, in fact he said he was really going to miss us". I sat there for a moment, realized that he hadn't heard my question (I think he is getting hearing issues like his dad, but he won't admit it). So I calmly said, "Yes, well I'll miss them too. But what about his bus? Is he getting tired of it being so unreliable and not starting?" At this point, I guess from the way I phrased the follow up question, he realized he hadn't heard me correctly the first time. I was shocked when he reacted with extreme anger, yelling at me "I'm sorry I didn't understand your f***ing question! Why do you have to be such a b**** about it?!" I, not feeling I deserved that, and in fact feeling like I had gone out of my way not to goad him for not hearing me (in other words, behaving opposite of how his mom would have treated his dad), I stood up for myself, asking that he please not talk to me that way, that I was simply asking a question. I said this tearfully, as his outburst really did surprise me and I felt "attacked" after walking on eggshells anyway to try and avoid dealing with the hearing issue in a disrespectful manner. I then composed myself and said, what was the absolute incorrect thing to say to him, even though my intention was to calm him down and get him to "trust" that I was safe. I said, "Hon, I just want you to know that if you are having trouble hearing, I will never belittle or be mean to you for it. We'll just go to the doctor and get you checked out, but it's not your fault. Ill never yell at you like your mom yells at your dad". BOOM. That comment poured gasoline on the fire. He erupted even further, slamming on the brakes, on the highway, in the rain, causing us to swerve and slide a little. I was scared, and decided to just shut my mouth. So for the rest of the trip home I sat in silence, quietly crying, as he yelled at me how awful I was, and especially because I brought his mom up because I think she's "evil" and I "hate" her, and ill say whatever I have to say to have an excuse to attach her to something that has nothing to do with her. In my mind, I felt it definitely had something to do with his mom, he had seen his mom treat his dad like dirt because of his hearing issues, and had even told me he he hated how she treated him. So I'm sure that somewhere inside my husband, there is a wall or reaction built in to this sensitive issue about his own hearing loss. Quite simply, I'm sure he doesn't want to be treated like his dad. So in this example, and maybe this isn't a good one, am I projecting my anger onto him? And if so, how can I avoid doing that so we can have a productive conversation without him yelling and accusing me of things that I certainly don't intend to do?
Hi Caspermom, whoops, no I wasn't suggesting you were projecting anger on to your husband. Sorry! I just read my post and I wasn't very clear. D'oh.

I was really just limiting my comment to the situation with his mother (in particular I was thinking of the Christmas situation where MIL applied pressure for you both to go and open the stockings, where you wound up going under pressure and were made to feel like the unreasonable one for protesting by both him and MIL). I guess I wondered if in that situation you were basically left carrying all the annoyance at the position you were both being put in because your husband cannot be angry with his mother, however unreasonably she is behaving, because he is tied to her so tightly.

Does that make more sense? I think your situation resonated strongly with me because I have been in similar situations where I found myself getting blamed for trying to set boundaries, while my partner stayed quite passive. But just because it resonates strongly for me doesn't necessarily mean this sort of thing is happening in your relationship at all. I was just curious to see what you thought about it.

The situation you just described sounds really unpleasant. I'm sorry you've often felt like you're walking on eggshells. It must feel really tough to feel responsible for asking questions in the 'right way' so you don't get an unpleasant reaction.

I would really love VW bus though. I make do with a Japanese camper that's not nearly as pretty but I love it.
Haha, ok wow, I really misread that then. How funny. Thanks for the clarification!

So basically, you're asking if I feel I am carrying the entire burden of anger when MIL acts inappropriately, due to the fact that hubs either isn't affected by her or refuses to confront her, right? To answer that question - yes, absolutely. In fact, I feel he stays in other toxic relationships (friendships, career choices) as well, relationships that I feel "take advantage of him", and I'm quite sure it has something to do with the way he is tied to the toxic relationship with his mother.

For example, he recently stayed in a terrible job for entirely too long. He was told there would be a significant pay increase after he passed a certification test. Well, he passed it the first try with an excellent score of 96%, second only to the President of the company. But his pay remained the same, while his hours increased. He was also denied overtime pay (illegal), and paid less than half the wage of another guy on staff who did the exact same job that my husband did, didn't have a college degree, and failed the certification test twice before barely passing it with a minimum score of 70%. I told my husband he should just find something else, and with his high score on the certification he easily could have. But he stayed, because they had promised him a profit sharing bonus that would likely "exceed his entire annual pay" (their words), and it was just a few months away. I agreed the bonus would be worth it, told him I supported his decision, but secretly doubted they would follow through. Sure enough, they furloughed him shortly thereafter and actually never called him back to work. He didn't get the bonus, plus he lost his job. And since it wasn't a termination, he wasn't eligible for unemployment benefits. It was a really awful thing that this employer (and friend), someone we had both known since high school, did to him. I was furious at this guy's dishonesty and unprofessionalism, but my husband never got mad at him. In fact, the guy asked us to go camping about 4 months ago, and hubs wanted to go! I told him absolutely not, what he did to us leveled us financially, was dishonest, and a deal-breaker on the friendship.

I felt like by being angry I was standing up for not only my husband, but also our marriage and myself. I tried to get him to see that, but he never would. He of course got angry with me for "burning a bridge" with this guy. I'm sorry, but he just walked all over you and then spit in your face, dear - is what I wanted to say. I ultimately let it go, but my husband's official recollection of that entire thing was that we had a friendship that was ruined because I am obsessed with drama, and I can't let things go. I am always the villain with his mother, too.

So yes, I do feel like I often carry the anger for both of us. I am angry FOR hubs because I feel he is being mistreated (by this employer/friend, his mom, etc), I am angry WITH him for not standing up for himself or recognizing my loyalty to him, and I am angry because the situations affect me as well.
quote:
So basically, you're asking if I feel I am carrying the entire burden of anger when MIL acts inappropriately, due to the fact that hubs either isn't affected by her or refuses to confront her, right?


Sorry for the delay in responding Caspermom. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry I was all confusing! I was going to ask whether being unable to stand up for himself was just limited to the situation with his mother or other bits of your life together. I can see how what you have been through with him must have been extremely hard for you to witness and then to feel blamed for trying to stand up for him.

How are you coping at the moment?
Hi Mallard, at the moment, I really feel like I am just going through the motions. I do feel they are finally motions that are in my own best interest, but the reality of what I've refused to accept for so long is really starting to sink in, and it hurts so badly. I've hurt before; I know that's part of progress.

I'm very mad at him, and I'm just so sad at the way I've allowed myself to be treated for so long. I must be more aware of my own actions and needs going forward. I could have avoided all of this if I knew and protected myself. I didn't realize the toll it's taken, but I can't sleep until I pass out from pure exhaustion, and then when I wake up in the morning, I instantly remember that my husband can't love me because his mom is an abusive narcissist who has trained him to love only her; he's manipulative, immature, and abusive; I'm pregnant with his child, and I just lie there and cry. I don't want to cry so much, but I can't hold it back right now. In a few days, I'm moving back to my hometown and in with my parents until the baby comes.

I keep telling myself that he can't see me as someone who is trying to help, as someone who loves him and wants the best for him, as someone who wants a life and a partnership with him. I keep telling myself that all I can do is change the way I let it affect me. Easier said than done.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm going through the motions. I'm packing bags and boxes and pulling my garden up. He wanted me to leave the garden, but it was my garden, I planted it alone even though I had hoped it would be something we could do together, and it's coming up. The metaphor of pulling up roots is giving me some peace, I feel like I have some control, like I'm not leaving part of myself behind. I'm also listening to a lot of Wilco and Bob Dylan; it helps Smiler

I did get some very good news today that I am happy to share: I found out my prenatal testing came back all normal, so no defects detected, and I'm going to have a boy Smiler A friend of mine, who is familiar with the details of my situation with my husband and MIL and was making an obvious dig at them, joked that "I don't have to tell you how a boy's love for his mom is #1", haha Smiler It's good to laugh, and it's good to be hopeful about the future, and being a good mom to my son, and the joy that will bring. Ironically enough, I am all too aware that I am likely considered "high risk" to enmesh my own son because of the neglect and abandonment by my husband. I'm taking it seriously, and I've already made my first therapy appointment back home. I know better days will come, I just can't see past the present pain yet.

Jeff Tweedy said (sang) it best:
"Oh speaking of tomorrow, how will it ever come?"

Thanks for checking in on me, Mallard. Your doing so makes me feel better.

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