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Hi Ultraviolet,
I just think it is (all the therapy stuff) awfull complicated and I can understand it's confusing you a lot. I'm feeling confused too about my therapy. I think there could be a shift in therapist's behaviour, maybe they need to push us at certain point, but... will they spot the right time? Don't know.
I also read (trying to educate myself about it the best I can), that sometimes the therapist is not going to do what the client expects them to do. So of course we are not going to like it.
Maybe... but it's just maybe, I don't really have a clue... he pushed you into a more adult state (the protective part of you) while you wanted to stay as a child with him. I understand that the adult part of us has to take care of the child, a therapist can't do it endlessly, so he needs to push us towards becoming an adult? Please dismiss my rambling if it sounds pointless.
Let me just tell you what happened with me over the last year. I think for the past year it was the child that was going to therapy and it was mainly about the child, as if the adult bearly existed. The child was crying, was very vulnerable, and afraid. I'm not sure if at any point I was an adult there. I loved being a child with him and I pretty much wanted to stay like that. Well, I don't think he would let me. But I feel there is some adult stuff I need to talk about and I can't do it as a child. I told him that I'm stuck and I need him to push me. So he said alright. So one session I became even more vulnerable and he hugged me. I felt like a little child clinging on to him and that was great, I wanted to stay like that with him.
Now I see that he is withdrawing some things that were important to me, he refused to hug a child when I asked, he told me he would prefer if I didn't text him and last session he took away the precious pat on my arm that he used to give me when I was leaving. I cried a lot. I was quite devasted loosing some things but he didn't seem to acknowledge that HE hurt me. He really wants to piss me off. This happened only last couple of sessions and we'll see how it goes, but I feel there may be a change in me. We also briefly acknowledged the sexual feelings, but there was no discussion around it ...yet. it's there but, also not a big deal. I feel it may become a big deal for me soon.
I don't know, I've never seen my therapist nervous, he is like a rock to me. I don't know what his plan is, but I think he may have a plan. I guess I may not like it. Maybe there is a challenging stage in therapy. I wish there was a list of stages of therapy so we could know what to expect.
Perhaps that's what he is doing now. Challenging you? I know it's not nice.
I just think it is (all the therapy stuff) awfull complicated and I can understand it's confusing you a lot. I'm feeling confused too about my therapy. I think there could be a shift in therapist's behaviour, maybe they need to push us at certain point, but... will they spot the right time? Don't know.
I also read (trying to educate myself about it the best I can), that sometimes the therapist is not going to do what the client expects them to do. So of course we are not going to like it.
Maybe... but it's just maybe, I don't really have a clue... he pushed you into a more adult state (the protective part of you) while you wanted to stay as a child with him. I understand that the adult part of us has to take care of the child, a therapist can't do it endlessly, so he needs to push us towards becoming an adult? Please dismiss my rambling if it sounds pointless.
Let me just tell you what happened with me over the last year. I think for the past year it was the child that was going to therapy and it was mainly about the child, as if the adult bearly existed. The child was crying, was very vulnerable, and afraid. I'm not sure if at any point I was an adult there. I loved being a child with him and I pretty much wanted to stay like that. Well, I don't think he would let me. But I feel there is some adult stuff I need to talk about and I can't do it as a child. I told him that I'm stuck and I need him to push me. So he said alright. So one session I became even more vulnerable and he hugged me. I felt like a little child clinging on to him and that was great, I wanted to stay like that with him.
Now I see that he is withdrawing some things that were important to me, he refused to hug a child when I asked, he told me he would prefer if I didn't text him and last session he took away the precious pat on my arm that he used to give me when I was leaving. I cried a lot. I was quite devasted loosing some things but he didn't seem to acknowledge that HE hurt me. He really wants to piss me off. This happened only last couple of sessions and we'll see how it goes, but I feel there may be a change in me. We also briefly acknowledged the sexual feelings, but there was no discussion around it ...yet. it's there but, also not a big deal. I feel it may become a big deal for me soon.
I don't know, I've never seen my therapist nervous, he is like a rock to me. I don't know what his plan is, but I think he may have a plan. I guess I may not like it. Maybe there is a challenging stage in therapy. I wish there was a list of stages of therapy so we could know what to expect.
Perhaps that's what he is doing now. Challenging you? I know it's not nice.
Hi UV,
It's good to hear from you and it's perfectly ok to post questions asking for input, that's a big part of what the forum is all about. Can I first tell you that this was a really articulate, insightful snapshot of where you are in therapy? You're obviously working really hard, and you're focus is where it needs to be, on understanding your behavior. I can understand you being confused by what's going on.
I want to state my usual disclaimer. There were a lot of things in your post that really resonated with me and reminded me of my own experiences in therapy, but that doesn't mean that your experience is exactly the same or should go the same way mine did. So I'm going to share my thoughts about what is going on but feel free to only take whatever you find useful or applicable. You know yourself and your T in a way I don't even come close to so you're going to have a much better idea of how to handle it.
What you're describing in the beginning of your post, the vulnerability, the different ego state and the strong longings sounds to me like moving closer to your T and feeling safer with him are triggering unmet attachment needs. The way you describe your childhood with neglectful parents and a abusive father, and disassociating is a description of long term trauma which is usually associated with attachment injuries. When we're small, we are driven towards an attachment figure to meet our needs, to teach us how to identify our needs and name them and how to get them met. These needs are a matter of life and death when we are little. If those needs for nurture and care and love are not met or are met inconsistently, we are left with those unmet needs and the intensity can be buried but not diminished. Whenever we meet anyone who holds even the barest hint of meeting them, then can roar to life with an intensity that can leave us feeling crazy, immature, and damaged. But we're not. It's actually a very healthy normal thing that you are trying to get those needs met. I know for myself, I was never taught how to handle my feelings so I tried to stop having them. Working with my T has taught me how to handle them, name them, express them and get them met.
I believe that your going deeper and opening up is a sign you were feeling safer with your T and that woke up your longings for attachment. Your description of feeling like you would die, fits When we're little, we will die if we can't stay close to our attachment figure, so that's how you were experiencing the separation, as a matter of life and death. And you were also right that it was connected to your parents. If these needs weren't met, you probably experienced some deep pain and loss around that, and the feeling of being separated from your T is triggering all the old, unprocessed feelings. When we don't have the resources to deal with those feelings when we're little (which if you don't have the care you need, then you don't have the resources to deal with them) they get stored raw, so that when they come back up, it doesn't feel like we're remembering, it feels like it's happening here and now. So we get this intensity that feels really out of place. But isn't. So in a way both you and your T are correct, it's both a memory and a state of being.
When our AF is also the source of the danger, we get caught in a horrible bind. The very person we need to go towards when we're in danger, is the source of the danger. So when we act on the healthy response of moving towards connection, we get hurt. This happens enough time and we come to believe on a very deep level that moving closer is dangerous. I had always known of my desire for a close loving relationship where I could be known and not left, but had no idea how badly it would terrify me when I got it. But that's the reparative part of therapy that we move closer even when we're scared to so we can learn it's a good thing to do. So I agree with you and disagree with your T. Moving back into a protective state and shutting away those feelings only reinforce your belief that it's dangerous to open up. It's important that all of you and all of your feelings, whatever they are, can be known and understood, on an emotional level, not just an intellectual one. It is in that relating that the real healing takes place. I really believe your on the right track, but you need a T who understands where you need to go and can bear watching you endure the pain you'll experience by going back and feeling all of this.
And I really commend your bravery and honesty in opening up to him about your feelings. My T has always told me that any and all of my feelings were welcome in his office and could be talked about. That I was safe with him because he had the boundaries and nothing would happen. And we've spent whole sessions discussing my feelings, even the erotic desire. Actually being able to look at my sexual feelings about my T led to several major breakthroughs. The problem is that it can be pretty uncomfortable for someone to be on the other end of those feelings and that can be compounded by what a T has been taught. Some schools of psychology see the development of an erotic transference purely as a resistance. My T saw it as another window into my behavior.
When healing from these kinds of injuries, its really important that your T retain a very steady presence, behaving in the same manner towards you no matter what comes up, because anything else can really signal danger or increase the fear of exposing yourself because of your fear of what will happen (will they leave, will they make you leave etc.) that you won't feel safe enough to talk about what you need to.
I do think a good T both builds trust and challenges you, but not in stages and not manipulatively. My T has told me numerous times that no matter how hard he tries, he will occasionally fail me or hurt me because he's human. There is no need to play games or create a situation because it will eventually occur. And we've spent enough of our lives being manipulated and lied to. We need to know that we can trust our Ts.
As far as being dependent goes, I'm just going to link to a post I wrote on the subject: therapy relationship question
Bottom line UV, I think you're doing all the right stuff and have a very clear view of what's going on, despite feeling confused. But your T may be struggling with the situation. Knowing that you were able to start opening up tells me that you've built a good base of trust and that your T is certainly doing a lot right. But I am concerned that if he doesn't now how to handle your feelings that things could go badly off course. You've said that you don't like the change in the dynamics, the best way to handle that is to tell all of this to your T. You're feelings and how you feel about what is going on between you. You may find that you're right and in that case, your T can hear you and correct what he's doing. Or it may be that you're seeing things that aren't there, but then that's really important to look at to.
I know that was alot of stuff, please feel free to ask for clarification if anything didn't make sense or if you want more information. May I also recommend doing a search on the forum for old posts about attachment, transference and dependency. There's a lot of good info I think could help you sort through this.
AG
It's good to hear from you and it's perfectly ok to post questions asking for input, that's a big part of what the forum is all about. Can I first tell you that this was a really articulate, insightful snapshot of where you are in therapy? You're obviously working really hard, and you're focus is where it needs to be, on understanding your behavior. I can understand you being confused by what's going on.
I want to state my usual disclaimer. There were a lot of things in your post that really resonated with me and reminded me of my own experiences in therapy, but that doesn't mean that your experience is exactly the same or should go the same way mine did. So I'm going to share my thoughts about what is going on but feel free to only take whatever you find useful or applicable. You know yourself and your T in a way I don't even come close to so you're going to have a much better idea of how to handle it.
What you're describing in the beginning of your post, the vulnerability, the different ego state and the strong longings sounds to me like moving closer to your T and feeling safer with him are triggering unmet attachment needs. The way you describe your childhood with neglectful parents and a abusive father, and disassociating is a description of long term trauma which is usually associated with attachment injuries. When we're small, we are driven towards an attachment figure to meet our needs, to teach us how to identify our needs and name them and how to get them met. These needs are a matter of life and death when we are little. If those needs for nurture and care and love are not met or are met inconsistently, we are left with those unmet needs and the intensity can be buried but not diminished. Whenever we meet anyone who holds even the barest hint of meeting them, then can roar to life with an intensity that can leave us feeling crazy, immature, and damaged. But we're not. It's actually a very healthy normal thing that you are trying to get those needs met. I know for myself, I was never taught how to handle my feelings so I tried to stop having them. Working with my T has taught me how to handle them, name them, express them and get them met.
I believe that your going deeper and opening up is a sign you were feeling safer with your T and that woke up your longings for attachment. Your description of feeling like you would die, fits When we're little, we will die if we can't stay close to our attachment figure, so that's how you were experiencing the separation, as a matter of life and death. And you were also right that it was connected to your parents. If these needs weren't met, you probably experienced some deep pain and loss around that, and the feeling of being separated from your T is triggering all the old, unprocessed feelings. When we don't have the resources to deal with those feelings when we're little (which if you don't have the care you need, then you don't have the resources to deal with them) they get stored raw, so that when they come back up, it doesn't feel like we're remembering, it feels like it's happening here and now. So we get this intensity that feels really out of place. But isn't. So in a way both you and your T are correct, it's both a memory and a state of being.
quote:Soon after that emotional state, the protective part of me took over and that vulnerable little girl has since vanished as I told myself it doesn't really matter that much if he didn't want to see me anymore as a result of things I told him (nothing in particular-am thinking general abandonment fears?) I told my T about the emotional experience and the protective me taking over, and he said this was good that I was able to do this. But I'm confused. I thought it was good to process those emotions, and thought it was good to let myself be vulnerable. I felt I wanted to keep going like this, experiencing everything I repressed for so long...but he seemed to change.
When our AF is also the source of the danger, we get caught in a horrible bind. The very person we need to go towards when we're in danger, is the source of the danger. So when we act on the healthy response of moving towards connection, we get hurt. This happens enough time and we come to believe on a very deep level that moving closer is dangerous. I had always known of my desire for a close loving relationship where I could be known and not left, but had no idea how badly it would terrify me when I got it. But that's the reparative part of therapy that we move closer even when we're scared to so we can learn it's a good thing to do. So I agree with you and disagree with your T. Moving back into a protective state and shutting away those feelings only reinforce your belief that it's dangerous to open up. It's important that all of you and all of your feelings, whatever they are, can be known and understood, on an emotional level, not just an intellectual one. It is in that relating that the real healing takes place. I really believe your on the right track, but you need a T who understands where you need to go and can bear watching you endure the pain you'll experience by going back and feeling all of this.
And I really commend your bravery and honesty in opening up to him about your feelings. My T has always told me that any and all of my feelings were welcome in his office and could be talked about. That I was safe with him because he had the boundaries and nothing would happen. And we've spent whole sessions discussing my feelings, even the erotic desire. Actually being able to look at my sexual feelings about my T led to several major breakthroughs. The problem is that it can be pretty uncomfortable for someone to be on the other end of those feelings and that can be compounded by what a T has been taught. Some schools of psychology see the development of an erotic transference purely as a resistance. My T saw it as another window into my behavior.
When healing from these kinds of injuries, its really important that your T retain a very steady presence, behaving in the same manner towards you no matter what comes up, because anything else can really signal danger or increase the fear of exposing yourself because of your fear of what will happen (will they leave, will they make you leave etc.) that you won't feel safe enough to talk about what you need to.
I do think a good T both builds trust and challenges you, but not in stages and not manipulatively. My T has told me numerous times that no matter how hard he tries, he will occasionally fail me or hurt me because he's human. There is no need to play games or create a situation because it will eventually occur. And we've spent enough of our lives being manipulated and lied to. We need to know that we can trust our Ts.
As far as being dependent goes, I'm just going to link to a post I wrote on the subject: therapy relationship question
Bottom line UV, I think you're doing all the right stuff and have a very clear view of what's going on, despite feeling confused. But your T may be struggling with the situation. Knowing that you were able to start opening up tells me that you've built a good base of trust and that your T is certainly doing a lot right. But I am concerned that if he doesn't now how to handle your feelings that things could go badly off course. You've said that you don't like the change in the dynamics, the best way to handle that is to tell all of this to your T. You're feelings and how you feel about what is going on between you. You may find that you're right and in that case, your T can hear you and correct what he's doing. Or it may be that you're seeing things that aren't there, but then that's really important to look at to.
I know that was alot of stuff, please feel free to ask for clarification if anything didn't make sense or if you want more information. May I also recommend doing a search on the forum for old posts about attachment, transference and dependency. There's a lot of good info I think could help you sort through this.
AG
Hi UV... I'm so glad AG responded to your questions because she has a very articulate way of describing what has been happening and what you need to be aware of. I just wanted to add here that I am experiencing some of what you are going through with my T who is not experienced with trauma and attachment injury patients. As a result, my therapy has been a very bumpy ride as our dynamics are constantly shifting and changing. My T does not do a good enough job of finding a solid place to plant his feet and STAY there and allow me the freedom of moving around and experimenting. When we get too close (which we do now and again) he gets scared and moves away. I see this as a rejection of me and then I get scared and close down, detach and am unable to confide in him. Then after awhile things go back to where they were and we start really connecting again and going deeper into our relationship and then... BAM...when we move closer and become more intimate he backs away and goes all cold on me.
What I have done is to confront him about this and he has agreed that he may be doing this subconsiously and he needs to be more aware of it. But it still happens. So I totally understand how it makes you feel.
I agree with AG that the best thing to do is to confront him and tell him how you feel. He just may feel out of his depth and that's why he's ignoring the very hard things you want to discuss with him such as your erotic feelings or your need to be near him. One other thing I want to add....when we feel scared, or stressed or upset we want to be near our attachment figure. This is called proximity seeking behavior and it kept us alive as children going all the way back to cave man days when if a child wandered away from it's caregiver it could be very dangerous. It's biological and wired into us. So when you feel that intense longing to be near your T it may be triggered by fear or insecurity or other emotions that feel threatening.
Good luck and please keep posting so we know how you are doing.
TN
What I have done is to confront him about this and he has agreed that he may be doing this subconsiously and he needs to be more aware of it. But it still happens. So I totally understand how it makes you feel.
I agree with AG that the best thing to do is to confront him and tell him how you feel. He just may feel out of his depth and that's why he's ignoring the very hard things you want to discuss with him such as your erotic feelings or your need to be near him. One other thing I want to add....when we feel scared, or stressed or upset we want to be near our attachment figure. This is called proximity seeking behavior and it kept us alive as children going all the way back to cave man days when if a child wandered away from it's caregiver it could be very dangerous. It's biological and wired into us. So when you feel that intense longing to be near your T it may be triggered by fear or insecurity or other emotions that feel threatening.
Good luck and please keep posting so we know how you are doing.
TN
I don't have much to add to this, but do want to say that I am following this thread and finding it very interesting. AG and TN always have such good insights. 
This, especially, resonated with me:
My P does this, too. I don't think he knows he's doing it. At first I thought it was just me, pulling away. But then I realized that my pulling away and shutting down was in part a response to his backing away, which he exhibits by being uncomfortable, nervous, and awkward around me.
Best of luck, UV. Keep us posted on how it goes.
This, especially, resonated with me:
quote:When we get too close (which we do now and again) he gets scared and moves away. I see this as a rejection of me and then I get scared and close down, detach and am unable to confide in him. Then after awhile things go back to where they were and we start really connecting again and going deeper into our relationship and then... BAM...when we move closer and become more intimate he backs away and goes all cold on me.
My P does this, too. I don't think he knows he's doing it. At first I thought it was just me, pulling away. But then I realized that my pulling away and shutting down was in part a response to his backing away, which he exhibits by being uncomfortable, nervous, and awkward around me.
Best of luck, UV. Keep us posted on how it goes.
Ultraviolet hello! Gosh you sound pretty clued up both about yourself and what’s going on in therapy. It also sounds like you have a pretty good T! I don’t have any experience to comment on most of the issues you are talking about in your posts, but DO relate to the sense of a T being rejecting when you talk to them on the phone.
For what it’s worth I personally believe that Ts ARE different out of hours - it’s not just the constraints of talking over the phone but they are also not all there for us at that time, unlike in a therapy session (preoccupations with real life lol). Nevertheless the way you are feeling about it and relating it to his story of the ‘seductive’ patient it’s pretty clear it’s an issue - I’d suggest talking to him about it especially as you’re getting the message that he seems to be discouraging you to phone, or at least making you feel like you shouldn’t be.
Actually I do find it odd that in response to your disclosure about the sexual feelings that he would bring up what to me is almost a negative story about another patient who was covertly seductive. As it is you are making connections that maybe don’t exist because of his explanations about that client and his reactions to her. It just seems to me these are big issues and that you need to bring them up with him - asking point blank if he is being more reticent with you (about phoning for instance) because of the whole seductiveness thing. In fact the more I think about it the more uncomfortable I would be in your situation and I’d need to get it clear exactly what his thoughts and feelings on your disclosure are.
And good on you for being able to accept his forgetfulness - that would drive me crazy but as you say it’s only one negative aspect of a generally really good relationship so hopefully doesn’t interfere with your therapy too much.
Good luck with your next session.
Lamplighter
For what it’s worth I personally believe that Ts ARE different out of hours - it’s not just the constraints of talking over the phone but they are also not all there for us at that time, unlike in a therapy session (preoccupations with real life lol). Nevertheless the way you are feeling about it and relating it to his story of the ‘seductive’ patient it’s pretty clear it’s an issue - I’d suggest talking to him about it especially as you’re getting the message that he seems to be discouraging you to phone, or at least making you feel like you shouldn’t be.
Actually I do find it odd that in response to your disclosure about the sexual feelings that he would bring up what to me is almost a negative story about another patient who was covertly seductive. As it is you are making connections that maybe don’t exist because of his explanations about that client and his reactions to her. It just seems to me these are big issues and that you need to bring them up with him - asking point blank if he is being more reticent with you (about phoning for instance) because of the whole seductiveness thing. In fact the more I think about it the more uncomfortable I would be in your situation and I’d need to get it clear exactly what his thoughts and feelings on your disclosure are.
And good on you for being able to accept his forgetfulness - that would drive me crazy but as you say it’s only one negative aspect of a generally really good relationship so hopefully doesn’t interfere with your therapy too much.
Good luck with your next session.
Lamplighter
Hi there again Ultraviolet.
I hope your next session is soon. Let us know how it goes?
:hug:
Lamplighter
I hope your next session is soon. Let us know how it goes?
:hug:
Lamplighter