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I feel that I stay in a victim state because it's what I'm used to I guess. But that makes me feel bad because it's a form of manipulation that I don't want to be using.
The worse this is when I talk to T about my life tragedies, I like talking about it because I'm hooking her in to my sad life. I want her to look at me in shock and say 'Gosh, wow, you've had it terrible. Wow. Amazing you've got through'.
I'm going to have to tell her this next week because I feel guilty for actually getting a sort of kick out of telling her the worse parts of my life story. Even more worse is that sometimes I wish I had more to tell.
I find it hard not to want to 'seduce' her by impressing her either. Through knowledge, ability, whatnot.
Yes I have the learnt helplessness thing a bit I think, in certain ways...attention seeking ways.
I find that attention seeking is disgusting and manipulative but I have to admit that there is a massive part of me that sort of thrives on attention-seeking in anyway.
When I'm in session, I don't become overly manipulative, I just am aware what my underlying intentions are. I'm honest with as much as I can be, but I know that the way in which I say things or put things forward is for the purpose of shocking her. I want the shock factor.
I need to tell T this next session. I feel bad for it..
I guess telling him about it might help? Say what you've said here. I reckon it might open up some pathways for you? Maybe?
The worse this is when I talk to T about my life tragedies, I like talking about it because I'm hooking her in to my sad life. I want her to look at me in shock and say 'Gosh, wow, you've had it terrible. Wow. Amazing you've got through'.
I'm going to have to tell her this next week because I feel guilty for actually getting a sort of kick out of telling her the worse parts of my life story. Even more worse is that sometimes I wish I had more to tell.
I find it hard not to want to 'seduce' her by impressing her either. Through knowledge, ability, whatnot.
Yes I have the learnt helplessness thing a bit I think, in certain ways...attention seeking ways.
I find that attention seeking is disgusting and manipulative but I have to admit that there is a massive part of me that sort of thrives on attention-seeking in anyway. When I'm in session, I don't become overly manipulative, I just am aware what my underlying intentions are. I'm honest with as much as I can be, but I know that the way in which I say things or put things forward is for the purpose of shocking her. I want the shock factor.
I need to tell T this next session. I feel bad for it..
quote:He's not going to rescue me, but how am I to stop trying when the strong pull of doing this remains unconscious?
I guess telling him about it might help? Say what you've said here. I reckon it might open up some pathways for you? Maybe?
Xoxo,
It seems to me that the emotional support and caring you get from your T is essential to your growth. You're not asking him to look for a new job for you or to fix your water heater or pay your bills or make friends for you. To me, that is the big difference. You have to go out into the world and do these things all for yourself but there is nothing wrong with soaking up all the caring and nurturing you can from your T when you get scared or fall down or not succeed at something or even when something good happens, etc.
You seem very driven to achieve, which we know isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I get the sense that this includes achieving in therapy. Growing in therapy. Always making gains. I never get the sense that you think it's okay to let the grass grow under your feet a little. To just relax and be comfortable. Maybe it's just okay to be where you are at right now? Just some random thoughts. Please dismiss if they do not resonate.
xoxoxox
Liese
It seems to me that the emotional support and caring you get from your T is essential to your growth. You're not asking him to look for a new job for you or to fix your water heater or pay your bills or make friends for you. To me, that is the big difference. You have to go out into the world and do these things all for yourself but there is nothing wrong with soaking up all the caring and nurturing you can from your T when you get scared or fall down or not succeed at something or even when something good happens, etc.
You seem very driven to achieve, which we know isn't necessarily a bad thing. But I get the sense that this includes achieving in therapy. Growing in therapy. Always making gains. I never get the sense that you think it's okay to let the grass grow under your feet a little. To just relax and be comfortable. Maybe it's just okay to be where you are at right now? Just some random thoughts. Please dismiss if they do not resonate.
xoxoxox
Liese
Xoxox
Just wanted to add that IMHO overcoming the need to be rescued involves facing some major fear and very painful realities about the present as opposed To the past. That's how it was for me anyway. And if you are not ready to deal with those feelings yet, you are just not ready. It doesn't mean you won't be ready next month or in six months but IMO it will happen for you when you are ready. I think it's okay to be afraid.
Hugs
Liese
Just wanted to add that IMHO overcoming the need to be rescued involves facing some major fear and very painful realities about the present as opposed To the past. That's how it was for me anyway. And if you are not ready to deal with those feelings yet, you are just not ready. It doesn't mean you won't be ready next month or in six months but IMO it will happen for you when you are ready. I think it's okay to be afraid.
Hugs
Liese
XOXO,
I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad that you are seeking a consult. But consults are not necessarily a bad thing and can lead to new insight and growth.
Hope it all goes okay,
Liese
I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad that you are seeking a consult.
But consults are not necessarily a bad thing and can lead to new insight and growth.Hope it all goes okay,
Liese
Thinking of you and hoping the consult goes okay.
xoxo,
I too hope it goes well for you. I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time.
Peace to you.
Hopeful
I too hope it goes well for you. I'm sorry that you are having such a difficult time.
Peace to you.
Hopeful
xoxo- I hope you are well. I wanted to let you know that the link you posted has made a huge difference in my therapy. I read it, and it was extremely enlightening- to read. I did not find it particularly painful, but actually emailed the article to my T, (the first session related email I've ever sent him) and had a very enlightening session tonight because of it. I wanted to thank you. I'm finding this hard, challenging stuff to face- to stay with it and not space out- to face it without my shame shutting me down- to just be what I am- a broken person who needs to address this stuff and try to come to terms with it. It is hard to change ingrained behavior, but so worth it. I'm on the road to where I need to be, I think. Thanks for sharing- you made a big difference to me.
Hug,
Beebs
Hug,
Beebs
xoxo and Beebs ... I did not like that article and wonder who is Jake Lawson... what are his credentials to be writing about this topic? I could not find anything about him on the page.
I think it is VERY important to differentiate and understand the difference between helplessness and LEARNED helplessness. There is a difference. Learned helplessness is the result of being chronically abused or having complex trauma. This Jake Lawson makes it seem like you can just will yourself out of being helpless (sounds CBTish to me) and I take exception to how he writes about it.
I can see why it would make you stop and question your motives and behavior and worry about regressing or doing something manipulative to "hook" a T's attention. I think how he puts this is almost dangerous and certainly irresponsible.
Just my opinion.
TN
I think it is VERY important to differentiate and understand the difference between helplessness and LEARNED helplessness. There is a difference. Learned helplessness is the result of being chronically abused or having complex trauma. This Jake Lawson makes it seem like you can just will yourself out of being helpless (sounds CBTish to me) and I take exception to how he writes about it.
I can see why it would make you stop and question your motives and behavior and worry about regressing or doing something manipulative to "hook" a T's attention. I think how he puts this is almost dangerous and certainly irresponsible.
Just my opinion.
TN
Wow, yes I completely agree with TN here. His definition is off. Helplessness is not a necessarily always a learned behavior. But even learned helplessness isn't merely a "hook" to get people to care for you. It tends to stem from a *legitimate need* for care. When I was in group therapy a couple years ago we discussed learned helplessness and it wasn't a shameful topic (although I completely understand why it seems that way, especially because I am afraid I milk stuff just to get care from my T).
I honestly hate how he describes this. Anyway, sorry if I'm just being repetitive of what's being said.
I honestly hate how he describes this. Anyway, sorry if I'm just being repetitive of what's being said.
Thank you so much TN - this article really bothered me - so negative and I was/am so worried that people could say "that's me" and attribute manipulative behaviours to themselves without real cause! I can't put this very well as I'm not psychologically learned but I was gobsmacked - certainly there are narcissists who could/would feign helplessness for attention but I really don't believe for a minute that any are part of this thread!!!
We sometimes need so much to find labels for ourselves and go hunting for anything 'bad' to attribute to ourselves!! We seem to need to find reasons to punish ourselves for something/anything - wdik??
Clearly I can't express myself on this but my gut is just saying "send this article to the bin"!!
s, Morgs
PS - I hope your consult went well xoxo
We sometimes need so much to find labels for ourselves and go hunting for anything 'bad' to attribute to ourselves!! We seem to need to find reasons to punish ourselves for something/anything - wdik??
Clearly I can't express myself on this but my gut is just saying "send this article to the bin"!!
s, MorgsPS - I hope your consult went well xoxo
Hi all,
I saw this thread and wanted to say that I too found the article really helpful. I didn't actually find it negative at all - just tough-minded. And I feel like if one can get positive, enlightening things out of the article, they are real. This isn't the same as using it to beat oneself up with. I guess if it is coming across like a sharp pointy stick that is an indicator one isn't in the right place for this particular message.
Beebee I liked how you said that you were working on NOT getting shut down by shame about it. I think there is no shame needed there. I think those patterns of helplessness do happen to us out of unhappy childhoods. We learn coping mechanisms that we sometimes take into adulthood. I like the article because it calls my attention to my strength and responsibility, without being punishing or blaming. At least, I didn't get a sense of punishment or blame from it. And I didn't get the sense that the author was saying if you are like this you must (or can) stop it immediately. Rather I got the sense that the author was saying that this is actually a pattern of self-harm, and that with really honest self-appraisal and consistent willingness to TAKE responsibility we can learn to be free of that pattern. Sure, we were made helpless in our families. We learned how to operate that way. And we are adults now. We can LEARN other ways.
But I guess I understand why others find it offensive.
The thing is, I think it's a really human thing to be a bit manipulative sometimes, and to blind ourselves to that. It's not the end of the world but it can be destructive if we insist on STAYING blind. I know I do it sometimes. Manatee has called me on it - quietly, painfully for me but very productively. Times when I've not been willing to own up to my own part in the pain of my life. Times when I'd rather go round and round the loop of what was DONE to me, and have others go round it with me, than face up to caring for myself and making choices for my life here and now. I am NOT invalidating the hard work of facing one's painful past, that needs to be done. But surely others relate to that feeling when you know, somewhere deep down inside, that you're playing the violin just a little too loud and long? And that we've played this tune before, and perhaps it's a tune of avoidance?
I think what happens is that we hear the word 'manipulative' and we have a huge internal reaction, like that means we're consciously scheming, evil, hateful people. But that's not what manipulative means to me. I just see it that it's something that comes from our unconscious minds sometimes. That we desperately want other people to help, be close, fix, take care of us. Sometimes we trade in our own capabilities because we get seduced by that desire. I am NOT saying that the desire to be cared for is wrong. Just that it hurts us when the desire goes covert and we make that trade, thinking we must always live from our weaknesses in order to be fully cared for.
XOXO and BB, good on you for being so brave as to consider this pattern, whether you find it in yourselves or not. No judgement here for anyone else in finding this UNhelpful - I suspect it is just different people at different places. I think if whatever we are doing is with kindness and self-respect - or at the very least, the movement in that direction - we can't go wrong.
Hugs all,
Jones
I saw this thread and wanted to say that I too found the article really helpful. I didn't actually find it negative at all - just tough-minded. And I feel like if one can get positive, enlightening things out of the article, they are real. This isn't the same as using it to beat oneself up with. I guess if it is coming across like a sharp pointy stick that is an indicator one isn't in the right place for this particular message.
Beebee I liked how you said that you were working on NOT getting shut down by shame about it. I think there is no shame needed there. I think those patterns of helplessness do happen to us out of unhappy childhoods. We learn coping mechanisms that we sometimes take into adulthood. I like the article because it calls my attention to my strength and responsibility, without being punishing or blaming. At least, I didn't get a sense of punishment or blame from it. And I didn't get the sense that the author was saying if you are like this you must (or can) stop it immediately. Rather I got the sense that the author was saying that this is actually a pattern of self-harm, and that with really honest self-appraisal and consistent willingness to TAKE responsibility we can learn to be free of that pattern. Sure, we were made helpless in our families. We learned how to operate that way. And we are adults now. We can LEARN other ways.
But I guess I understand why others find it offensive.
The thing is, I think it's a really human thing to be a bit manipulative sometimes, and to blind ourselves to that. It's not the end of the world but it can be destructive if we insist on STAYING blind. I know I do it sometimes. Manatee has called me on it - quietly, painfully for me but very productively. Times when I've not been willing to own up to my own part in the pain of my life. Times when I'd rather go round and round the loop of what was DONE to me, and have others go round it with me, than face up to caring for myself and making choices for my life here and now. I am NOT invalidating the hard work of facing one's painful past, that needs to be done. But surely others relate to that feeling when you know, somewhere deep down inside, that you're playing the violin just a little too loud and long? And that we've played this tune before, and perhaps it's a tune of avoidance?
I think what happens is that we hear the word 'manipulative' and we have a huge internal reaction, like that means we're consciously scheming, evil, hateful people. But that's not what manipulative means to me. I just see it that it's something that comes from our unconscious minds sometimes. That we desperately want other people to help, be close, fix, take care of us. Sometimes we trade in our own capabilities because we get seduced by that desire. I am NOT saying that the desire to be cared for is wrong. Just that it hurts us when the desire goes covert and we make that trade, thinking we must always live from our weaknesses in order to be fully cared for.
XOXO and BB, good on you for being so brave as to consider this pattern, whether you find it in yourselves or not. No judgement here for anyone else in finding this UNhelpful - I suspect it is just different people at different places. I think if whatever we are doing is with kindness and self-respect - or at the very least, the movement in that direction - we can't go wrong.
Hugs all,
Jones
Jones:
This is basically what I realized from reading it- that I do operate from a place where I believe I cannot be cared for unless I am weak and helpless. I was conditioned that way, so yes- it's learned, and for that part of it I am not responsible. When I was young, I could get attention only by being very sick, or badly hurt. (sometimes not even then- I remember tending to fairly severe injuries by myself) Now I have the responsibility to unlearn it- not perpetuate it- that if I am just sick or weak *enough* someone will take care of me and do it for me. Cowboy- bless him- is teaching me that lesson. Painful lesson that no- nobody will, so you have to. It's a really tough lesson, and a humiliating (or should I say humbling) one, but it's deeply empowering. My apathy is dissolving after reading the article. I hope that people realize that when I was endorsing the article, I was endorsing it for myself, from where I am, and my own individual experience of myself. I found it very, very helpful. I can certainly see that it would not be helpful for everyone! It's just that I've gotten real tired of operating from such a completely helpless powerless place. Others are in a different place than I am.. I think it has to do with ability to function through this stuff. Clearly there are severely traumatized individuals who function beautifully, and who are not helpless- in fact often the opposite. But I am not one of them. Most of my issues stem not from trauma but from severe neglect. It needs to be handled differently. I never had anyone who cared enough about me to want to teach me how to care for myself, in any way shape or form, right down to hygienic issues, eating, medical care, even schooling- you name it. Cowboy has been really tough on me, but I'll tell you, I am growing. Attachment therapy as such, working through transference and feeling the need to be loved-and so on- it simply did not work for me, because the feelings themselves plunged me into existential despair and I could not function or operate or indeed make even small decisions from that emotional space, since I felt completely non-existent. I simply could not tolerate the pain. But that doesn't mean it isn't the way for many therapy clients. My psyche seems to be wired such, that I cannot function therapeutically from that space. Now I am doing better than I ever have been- (admittedly, with the inner child somewhat shutdown, but it's a trade I'm willing to make to survive for now) and I absolutely hate my therapy
, and find it to be like forcing myself to run a 5k in 40 below weather. The reality for me, is that I needed boot camp, and my old T was giving me sympathy, empathy, then withdrawing it when he saw that what I needed was toughening up- it got too confusing. fwiw- I do tend to think I will find my "little me" on the other side of this pschological boot camp I seem to be going through.
So I was only speaking with gratitude to xoxo for posting a link that helped me to move forward in my therapy. I had a very productive session with Cowboy last night, for the first time in months because of it, so I just wanted to thank her. Sorry if my endorsement triggered anyone-
love you all-
beebs
quote:I am NOT saying that the desire to be cared for is wrong. Just that it hurts us when the desire goes covert and we make that trade, thinking we must always live from our weaknesses in order to be fully cared for.
This is basically what I realized from reading it- that I do operate from a place where I believe I cannot be cared for unless I am weak and helpless. I was conditioned that way, so yes- it's learned, and for that part of it I am not responsible. When I was young, I could get attention only by being very sick, or badly hurt. (sometimes not even then- I remember tending to fairly severe injuries by myself) Now I have the responsibility to unlearn it- not perpetuate it- that if I am just sick or weak *enough* someone will take care of me and do it for me. Cowboy- bless him- is teaching me that lesson. Painful lesson that no- nobody will, so you have to. It's a really tough lesson, and a humiliating (or should I say humbling) one, but it's deeply empowering. My apathy is dissolving after reading the article. I hope that people realize that when I was endorsing the article, I was endorsing it for myself, from where I am, and my own individual experience of myself. I found it very, very helpful. I can certainly see that it would not be helpful for everyone! It's just that I've gotten real tired of operating from such a completely helpless powerless place. Others are in a different place than I am.. I think it has to do with ability to function through this stuff. Clearly there are severely traumatized individuals who function beautifully, and who are not helpless- in fact often the opposite. But I am not one of them. Most of my issues stem not from trauma but from severe neglect. It needs to be handled differently. I never had anyone who cared enough about me to want to teach me how to care for myself, in any way shape or form, right down to hygienic issues, eating, medical care, even schooling- you name it. Cowboy has been really tough on me, but I'll tell you, I am growing. Attachment therapy as such, working through transference and feeling the need to be loved-and so on- it simply did not work for me, because the feelings themselves plunged me into existential despair and I could not function or operate or indeed make even small decisions from that emotional space, since I felt completely non-existent. I simply could not tolerate the pain. But that doesn't mean it isn't the way for many therapy clients. My psyche seems to be wired such, that I cannot function therapeutically from that space. Now I am doing better than I ever have been- (admittedly, with the inner child somewhat shutdown, but it's a trade I'm willing to make to survive for now) and I absolutely hate my therapy
, and find it to be like forcing myself to run a 5k in 40 below weather. The reality for me, is that I needed boot camp, and my old T was giving me sympathy, empathy, then withdrawing it when he saw that what I needed was toughening up- it got too confusing. fwiw- I do tend to think I will find my "little me" on the other side of this pschological boot camp I seem to be going through.So I was only speaking with gratitude to xoxo for posting a link that helped me to move forward in my therapy. I had a very productive session with Cowboy last night, for the first time in months because of it, so I just wanted to thank her. Sorry if my endorsement triggered anyone-
love you all-
beebs
I suppose part of my reaction to it is that helplessness can be manipulative, but it is also a completely legitimate feeling that isn't originally born out of a desire/need/want to manipulate. I didn't like how the author simply talked about it as only a tool of manipulation. I didn't find the article negative, but I just wish the author expanded upon all of the various aspects of helplessness that are just as valid and essential to the understanding of it.
Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry if I came off as one-sided. I am really glad that the article has helped some, and I also really agree with a lot of what you said, Jones. Anything positive that someone finds in the article is definitely real.
Hugs to you all.
Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry if I came off as one-sided. I am really glad that the article has helped some, and I also really agree with a lot of what you said, Jones. Anything positive that someone finds in the article is definitely real.
Hugs to you all.
(((((xoxo)))))
hey lady, it was an interesting article!! and i was concerned that you and others might have been beating yourself/ves up - sorry if my 'protector' came out inappropriately!! and if my comment came out as disagreeable, i do most sincerely apologise - absolutely not my way - in fact it's usually not my way to make much comment anywhere!!
s and apologies to all!
edited for a ps: i have made some dear friends on this forum and that is very special to me as are all of you - some closer than others obviously but the major component of this whole wonderful place is it actually does become a family - supportive mostly with the occasional spits and make ups!!
we in Oz would just say "love yous all" xx
hey lady, it was an interesting article!! and i was concerned that you
and others might have been beating yourself/ves up - sorry if my 'protector' came out inappropriately!! and if my comment came out as disagreeable, i do most sincerely apologise - absolutely not my way - in fact it's usually not my way to make much comment anywhere!!s and apologies to all!edited for a ps: i have made some dear friends on this forum and that is very special to me as are all of you - some closer than others obviously but the major component of this whole wonderful place is it actually does become a family - supportive mostly with the occasional spits and make ups!!
we in Oz would just say "love yous all" xx
I'm weighing in here well past the expiration date of this thread but I haven't had the time to check in and there is lots of thought provking stuff written by Jake Lawson and on this thread.
I can certainly appreciate Lawson's points but it is simplistic. Life isn't that clear cut.
I personally don't like the judgmental nature of what his says as evidenced by the following:
Third: Learn "normal" coping behaviors from others who are in a healthier place than yourself.
But I did like this: "A false sense of incompetence, by making others believe that you lack the competence, intellect, skills and abilities to handle your own problems."
I would love it if I could learn that I am in fact competent. That made me smile and feel hopeful.
But he loses credibility for me again when he says the following, which I find judgmental: "Refusal to "grow up'' and be an adult because then you would be held responsible for the outcome of your life."
However, I found this is true for me: "Atrophying skills, since you find that your inherent competencies, skills and abilities wither from nonuse."
He writes some really good stuff but uses put-downs way too often as a way to motivate maybe? "Don't be a loser!!! Take responsibility for yourself and join the winners club with us." I find the lack of acceptance to be a huge turnoff.
Any one of us could make a million excuses for where we are in life. Or not. The god's honest truth is no one owes us anything. And the god's honest truth is: being able to take care of yourself and your needs will definitely help innoculate you from life's ups and downs. But there should be no judgment. There is no right or wrong. Human beings are infinitely complex. Just look at all the smart people out there with all kinds of degrees who can't get it right for themselves.
I just wonder how do "healthy" people become friends? What does friendship feel like to those healthy people? Do they not depend on their friends to be there for them? Or get angry when they are not? Or feel let down? Do they ever get lonely? Or afraid of being alone? How do they become mates? What does it feel like? What does it feel like when a healthy person falls in love? Or even, do healthy people fall in love?
If we eliminate all the recuers and all those who want to be rescued, will there by anyone left? And what would that person look like? And what would their relationships look like? Are the healthy people somewhere on the spectrum between narcissists and co-dependents?
Is everyone created equal? Is everyone on earth able to take care of their needs themselves to the same extent? Do we all have the same abilities? Are we born with the same advantages? The same disadvantages? Are those things not real? Are we born with the same emotional makeup?
Can we and do we fall victim to our mammalian nature?
It's all just not so simple in my mind and certainly not something I would take very seriously in terms of judging myself and where I am at. Helpful in some ways, yes.
Just my opinion.
I can certainly appreciate Lawson's points but it is simplistic. Life isn't that clear cut.
I personally don't like the judgmental nature of what his says as evidenced by the following:
Third: Learn "normal" coping behaviors from others who are in a healthier place than yourself.
But I did like this: "A false sense of incompetence, by making others believe that you lack the competence, intellect, skills and abilities to handle your own problems."
I would love it if I could learn that I am in fact competent. That made me smile and feel hopeful.
But he loses credibility for me again when he says the following, which I find judgmental: "Refusal to "grow up'' and be an adult because then you would be held responsible for the outcome of your life."
However, I found this is true for me: "Atrophying skills, since you find that your inherent competencies, skills and abilities wither from nonuse."
He writes some really good stuff but uses put-downs way too often as a way to motivate maybe? "Don't be a loser!!! Take responsibility for yourself and join the winners club with us." I find the lack of acceptance to be a huge turnoff.
Any one of us could make a million excuses for where we are in life. Or not. The god's honest truth is no one owes us anything. And the god's honest truth is: being able to take care of yourself and your needs will definitely help innoculate you from life's ups and downs. But there should be no judgment. There is no right or wrong. Human beings are infinitely complex. Just look at all the smart people out there with all kinds of degrees who can't get it right for themselves.
I just wonder how do "healthy" people become friends? What does friendship feel like to those healthy people? Do they not depend on their friends to be there for them? Or get angry when they are not? Or feel let down? Do they ever get lonely? Or afraid of being alone? How do they become mates? What does it feel like? What does it feel like when a healthy person falls in love? Or even, do healthy people fall in love?
If we eliminate all the recuers and all those who want to be rescued, will there by anyone left? And what would that person look like? And what would their relationships look like? Are the healthy people somewhere on the spectrum between narcissists and co-dependents?
Is everyone created equal? Is everyone on earth able to take care of their needs themselves to the same extent? Do we all have the same abilities? Are we born with the same advantages? The same disadvantages? Are those things not real? Are we born with the same emotional makeup?
Can we and do we fall victim to our mammalian nature?
It's all just not so simple in my mind and certainly not something I would take very seriously in terms of judging myself and where I am at. Helpful in some ways, yes.
Just my opinion.
f
Thanks Muff, that was really beautiful. I hope to get there one day.
Liese
Liese
v
I just happened to find this and like the way this article describes relationships. I found it to say the same sort of thing but in a less judgmental way and takes into account other forces in the universe.
Here's the link.
****** Explicit pictures with sexual content appear at the top of the article page
http://www.relationships-expla...com/pages/Games.html
Because, as we all know, we don't want to be rescued in a vacuum. We got this way in relation to other people and other people play roles in our lives to maintain this way of relating and it will take other people still to help us to stop relating in whatever role we take on. I thought this article was interesting in that it points out that we can actually switch roles as well.
Edited by AG to add trigger warning
Here's the link.
****** Explicit pictures with sexual content appear at the top of the article page
http://www.relationships-expla...com/pages/Games.html
Because, as we all know, we don't want to be rescued in a vacuum. We got this way in relation to other people and other people play roles in our lives to maintain this way of relating and it will take other people still to help us to stop relating in whatever role we take on. I thought this article was interesting in that it points out that we can actually switch roles as well.
Edited by AG to add trigger warning
Liese- The article looks extremely interesting...I don't like the pictures on the top though! Will try to go back and read the article. Maybe put trigger warning on the link, just so people know? 
((((BB))))
I'm so oblivious that I didn't even notice those pictures. Good thing you saw them. I just went back to the article and can't believe I didn't notice them. What have I learned to block out?
So glad to be able to write to you because I wanted to tell you how touched I was by your account up above and how much that article helped you. Glad you had a good session with Cowboy T!
Hugs,
Liese
P.S. My sincerest apologies to anyone and everyone that was triggered by the pictures. I got triggered by them myself when I went back to look. I had no idea.
I'm so oblivious that I didn't even notice those pictures. Good thing you saw them. I just went back to the article and can't believe I didn't notice them. What have I learned to block out?
So glad to be able to write to you because I wanted to tell you how touched I was by your account up above and how much that article helped you. Glad you had a good session with Cowboy T!
Hugs,
Liese
P.S. My sincerest apologies to anyone and everyone that was triggered by the pictures. I got triggered by them myself when I went back to look. I had no idea.