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Permafrost,
I do have an answer that I think you might find helpful but I just arrived four hours late to work due to bad weather and having to reschedule my T appt so I don't have time to write it right now. My T and I discussed this exact subject today. I'm hoping I can write something tonight but if not, definitely sometime tomorrow. But I do want you to know you're being heard and I really understand how you're feeling. Hang in there.
AG
I do have an answer that I think you might find helpful but I just arrived four hours late to work due to bad weather and having to reschedule my T appt so I don't have time to write it right now. My T and I discussed this exact subject today. I'm hoping I can write something tonight but if not, definitely sometime tomorrow. But I do want you to know you're being heard and I really understand how you're feeling. Hang in there.
AG
PF,
No apologies necessary! I'm sorry you had such a frustrating session and left not feeling heard.
I'm not sure if I can explain things as well as AG will be able to, but I'll give it a shot from my experience with my T.
It sounds like you are feeling really vulnerable and are concerned that you are dragging all of these feelings and experiences into the light, but you aren't sure that your T is really going to be in it for the long haul to help you sort through it and put it all back together. It sounds like you are needing to feel that she is attuned and to feel her caring on a body level so you can begin to trust that she will be there and doesn't intend to abandon you in the middle of this process. What you are asking for isn't unreasonable. Obviously, there are boundaries to the therapeutic relationship. She can't be your friend or your mother, but you already know that. The good news is she doesn't have to be in order to care and to communicate that care to you. It is also perfectly natural for you to have that longing to be cared for or to have a parent that cares. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It's normal! The question is how to you get your needs met with T but within the context of the relationship. The exchange between you and your T felt like to me that you were needing her to say, "PF, I understand this is hard for you and it's hard for you to trust. I am not going to leave you when it gets hard. I am here and you won't go through this alone."
I'm wondering if your T has experience with trauma and attachment? Of course it isn't as simple as reading a book and applying the principles. If it were that easy then everyone would just do that! That is all left brained work though. It doesn't mean squat to the right brain and the part that stores all of this past stuff that keeps causing issues for you. It feels like you are needing to communicate with her on a right brain to right brain level and she is trying to keep things on a left brain level and that is why you are running into issues.
I think I'm really just rambling here, but really it is normal to have the longings that you have. It is okay to have needs and want them met. If it were as easy as just finding other outlets to get those needs met then you would just do that. I think it would be helpful for her to acknowledge that it is normal for you to have these longings to have these needs met and that while she can't meet all of them she can be with you in the process.
No apologies necessary! I'm sorry you had such a frustrating session and left not feeling heard.
I'm not sure if I can explain things as well as AG will be able to, but I'll give it a shot from my experience with my T.
It sounds like you are feeling really vulnerable and are concerned that you are dragging all of these feelings and experiences into the light, but you aren't sure that your T is really going to be in it for the long haul to help you sort through it and put it all back together. It sounds like you are needing to feel that she is attuned and to feel her caring on a body level so you can begin to trust that she will be there and doesn't intend to abandon you in the middle of this process. What you are asking for isn't unreasonable. Obviously, there are boundaries to the therapeutic relationship. She can't be your friend or your mother, but you already know that. The good news is she doesn't have to be in order to care and to communicate that care to you. It is also perfectly natural for you to have that longing to be cared for or to have a parent that cares. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It's normal! The question is how to you get your needs met with T but within the context of the relationship. The exchange between you and your T felt like to me that you were needing her to say, "PF, I understand this is hard for you and it's hard for you to trust. I am not going to leave you when it gets hard. I am here and you won't go through this alone."
quote:(note: she said *before* this conversation: "I don't know how I can help you (in a nice tone)... you could buy therapy books and read them, you're bright enough to understand the principles and everything so you must need something else from me or you wouldn't be here")
I'm wondering if your T has experience with trauma and attachment? Of course it isn't as simple as reading a book and applying the principles. If it were that easy then everyone would just do that! That is all left brained work though. It doesn't mean squat to the right brain and the part that stores all of this past stuff that keeps causing issues for you. It feels like you are needing to communicate with her on a right brain to right brain level and she is trying to keep things on a left brain level and that is why you are running into issues.
I think I'm really just rambling here, but really it is normal to have the longings that you have. It is okay to have needs and want them met. If it were as easy as just finding other outlets to get those needs met then you would just do that. I think it would be helpful for her to acknowledge that it is normal for you to have these longings to have these needs met and that while she can't meet all of them she can be with you in the process.
(((frosty)))
you know how i'd love to be of help here but AG and STRM and others who will no doubt respond to this thread, are so much more able to explain these things!!
Love
Morgs xx
you know how i'd love to be of help here but AG and STRM and others who will no doubt respond to this thread, are so much more able to explain these things!!
Love
Morgs xx
PF,
See, I'm feeling like she is wanting to stay in that CBT realm and IMHO that isn't what is going to solve this issue. That is left brain to left brain and it isn't going to touch where you need. Does she work at all on a body level? It's so hard to explain what I mean when I ask that, but I've done traditional "talking" therapy and I've done the body work therapy and it is night/day difference in terms of accessing the trauma and shifting it in the body. I'm not saying that it can't work for others, but it didn't work for me and I am such an advocate for it now because I've seen the difference it is making in my life.
You know, I did a search for something else on the forum recently and I came across a thread from December where you had asked me a question, but I never saw it. I almost answered it on that thread the other day, but I wasn't sure about bumping the thread because it wasn't mine to begin with. Anyway, the question you asked me seems appropriate to address here now because it is along the same lines.
This was the question:
One does that by feeling the attunement and right brain to right brain connection with their T or at least that is how it was for me. You see, my body is programmed from the trauma that if I do X then Y will happen. Every time I would attempt to do X in therapy my body would freak out and be on high alert for Y to happen. Well, you know what? It never did. Over time as I would go further and further toward this imaginary line where I figured Y response would be triggered and it wasn't, I could get closer and closer to that line and let the wall down a little more. I still do it even now in therapy, but the wall has come way down brick by brick. My body still thinks that Y will happen and sometimes we have a setback and I throw some of those bricks back onto the wall (I've kept them close by for quick building!
) Maybe the first time I took down 2 bricks and kept 2 in case I needed to put them back. Then I took down 3 and only kept 2 and so on and so forth. As my body began to feel and experience the action of X not being followed by Y my body started to form new connections.
That is all a bit abstract so I'll try to be more specific and give you some examples from recent sessions involving body work. Recently, I began to tell my T about a specific traumatic event that was troubling me. As I began talking I could feel the anxiety building in my body. I started to shake, my chest felt tight, I was jumpy and the talking slowed. My body felt stiff and tight and it was as if I couldn't speak anymore. My T asked me to notice all of this in my body and hang out right there with those sensations. I wasn't asked to talk anymore or move forward with the story, but just hang out right there with the sensations in my body. As I sat there and waited and experienced those sensations and feelings of panic my body waited and waited for the bad consequence to happen. Of course it didn't happen and over the course of how many ever minutes it was, my body learned a lesson. X does not equal Y every time. As I went on with the story, my body began to experience sensations from the past and I began to feel as though the past was happening in the present. My T continually reassured me that I was safe, that it was 2011 and I was in her office with her. She encouraged me to move in any way that my body wanted to and that it couldn't do in the past. In the past I was tied up and couldn't move my arms, but I could there in her office. I could move backwards away from the harm that my body felt and in doing so my body learned it could get away and that I was now safe. The danger was over. I can't even begin to describe how amazing it is the process that this elicits and the shift that takes place on a body level. It's as if I got away back then and my body finally stops trying to get away.
Onto the caring that you are describing needing to feel on a body level. I've found that takes so many different forms. It can be as overt as my T holding me while I cry or when I'm terrified as we process a memory. It can also be more subtle. It is in the way that she moves her body to mirror mine. I often notice that she will curl up in her chair the same way that I'm curled up. An exact mirror image. She's never pointed it out to me, but boy have I noticed. At times I've even noticed that she breathes in/out at the same rate that I am or if I'm really out of control with the breathing she will slow her breathing and I can feel her calmness and it somehow gets into me. It's little things like me mentioning a blanket that I enjoyed in another office and her going out of her way to find one similar to keep in the office. It's when I have a headache and she quietly reaches over and gently rubs my head. It is how she discloses something to me that so closely relates to how I'm feeling and lets me feel how much she understands what I'm feeling. It's looking over at her and noticing that she is teary and is feeling what I am experiencing. It's times like last week when she said, "You know, I wish I could make this all better for you right now so you wouldn't have to go through all of the pain step by step.." and I could feel how much she meant it. Yesterday, one of my little parts was feeling as if she was going to be punished for telling about this memory and that T must want her to go away. Of course T said that wasn't true, but she said that at the end of the session where we were processing that memory that she had the urge to reach over as we were lying in the floor and touch my little's nose in a playful way. So, later when she was working with that little part yesterday she asked for permission to do just that. She playfully touched her nose and in a way that I can't really even describe that communicated such a deep level of caring, respect and attunement to Little Kate and by extension to me. That one little gesture held so much meaning. Another non-physical example is last fall when my T was leaving to go on a vacation which she knew was going to be so hard on me and my parts. She sent me a text as she was passing by my town on her way to the airport just saying she hoped I was doing ok and that she was passing by and would see me soon. So it really is the simple things and I feel like that is what you are asking for from what you've described.
I'm telling you all of this because I'm trying to explain that it IS ok to need to feel the caring and it is possible to have that. It is possible to get past being told that the person will be there, but not believing it to being able to feel and know that they will truly be there. That doesn't mean that there won't be times that they might be busy or not able to help right away, but it comes with the knowledge that even when you aren't together or they can't get to you right away that you are being suppported, thought of and regarded as important. It is a felt sense of all of that.
See, I'm feeling like she is wanting to stay in that CBT realm and IMHO that isn't what is going to solve this issue. That is left brain to left brain and it isn't going to touch where you need. Does she work at all on a body level? It's so hard to explain what I mean when I ask that, but I've done traditional "talking" therapy and I've done the body work therapy and it is night/day difference in terms of accessing the trauma and shifting it in the body. I'm not saying that it can't work for others, but it didn't work for me and I am such an advocate for it now because I've seen the difference it is making in my life.
You know, I did a search for something else on the forum recently and I came across a thread from December where you had asked me a question, but I never saw it. I almost answered it on that thread the other day, but I wasn't sure about bumping the thread because it wasn't mine to begin with. Anyway, the question you asked me seems appropriate to address here now because it is along the same lines.
This was the question:
quote:May I be rude and butt in?
STRM, that's the thing I have too. The Wall
Can you maybe tell me (or us) how it was when you let your guard down and anyway, how the heck does one do that!?
One does that by feeling the attunement and right brain to right brain connection with their T or at least that is how it was for me. You see, my body is programmed from the trauma that if I do X then Y will happen. Every time I would attempt to do X in therapy my body would freak out and be on high alert for Y to happen. Well, you know what? It never did. Over time as I would go further and further toward this imaginary line where I figured Y response would be triggered and it wasn't, I could get closer and closer to that line and let the wall down a little more. I still do it even now in therapy, but the wall has come way down brick by brick. My body still thinks that Y will happen and sometimes we have a setback and I throw some of those bricks back onto the wall (I've kept them close by for quick building!
) Maybe the first time I took down 2 bricks and kept 2 in case I needed to put them back. Then I took down 3 and only kept 2 and so on and so forth. As my body began to feel and experience the action of X not being followed by Y my body started to form new connections. That is all a bit abstract so I'll try to be more specific and give you some examples from recent sessions involving body work. Recently, I began to tell my T about a specific traumatic event that was troubling me. As I began talking I could feel the anxiety building in my body. I started to shake, my chest felt tight, I was jumpy and the talking slowed. My body felt stiff and tight and it was as if I couldn't speak anymore. My T asked me to notice all of this in my body and hang out right there with those sensations. I wasn't asked to talk anymore or move forward with the story, but just hang out right there with the sensations in my body. As I sat there and waited and experienced those sensations and feelings of panic my body waited and waited for the bad consequence to happen. Of course it didn't happen and over the course of how many ever minutes it was, my body learned a lesson. X does not equal Y every time. As I went on with the story, my body began to experience sensations from the past and I began to feel as though the past was happening in the present. My T continually reassured me that I was safe, that it was 2011 and I was in her office with her. She encouraged me to move in any way that my body wanted to and that it couldn't do in the past. In the past I was tied up and couldn't move my arms, but I could there in her office. I could move backwards away from the harm that my body felt and in doing so my body learned it could get away and that I was now safe. The danger was over. I can't even begin to describe how amazing it is the process that this elicits and the shift that takes place on a body level. It's as if I got away back then and my body finally stops trying to get away.
Onto the caring that you are describing needing to feel on a body level. I've found that takes so many different forms. It can be as overt as my T holding me while I cry or when I'm terrified as we process a memory. It can also be more subtle. It is in the way that she moves her body to mirror mine. I often notice that she will curl up in her chair the same way that I'm curled up. An exact mirror image. She's never pointed it out to me, but boy have I noticed. At times I've even noticed that she breathes in/out at the same rate that I am or if I'm really out of control with the breathing she will slow her breathing and I can feel her calmness and it somehow gets into me. It's little things like me mentioning a blanket that I enjoyed in another office and her going out of her way to find one similar to keep in the office. It's when I have a headache and she quietly reaches over and gently rubs my head. It is how she discloses something to me that so closely relates to how I'm feeling and lets me feel how much she understands what I'm feeling. It's looking over at her and noticing that she is teary and is feeling what I am experiencing. It's times like last week when she said, "You know, I wish I could make this all better for you right now so you wouldn't have to go through all of the pain step by step.." and I could feel how much she meant it. Yesterday, one of my little parts was feeling as if she was going to be punished for telling about this memory and that T must want her to go away. Of course T said that wasn't true, but she said that at the end of the session where we were processing that memory that she had the urge to reach over as we were lying in the floor and touch my little's nose in a playful way. So, later when she was working with that little part yesterday she asked for permission to do just that. She playfully touched her nose and in a way that I can't really even describe that communicated such a deep level of caring, respect and attunement to Little Kate and by extension to me. That one little gesture held so much meaning. Another non-physical example is last fall when my T was leaving to go on a vacation which she knew was going to be so hard on me and my parts. She sent me a text as she was passing by my town on her way to the airport just saying she hoped I was doing ok and that she was passing by and would see me soon. So it really is the simple things and I feel like that is what you are asking for from what you've described.
I'm telling you all of this because I'm trying to explain that it IS ok to need to feel the caring and it is possible to have that. It is possible to get past being told that the person will be there, but not believing it to being able to feel and know that they will truly be there. That doesn't mean that there won't be times that they might be busy or not able to help right away, but it comes with the knowledge that even when you aren't together or they can't get to you right away that you are being suppported, thought of and regarded as important. It is a felt sense of all of that.
quote:mean, even if she cannot be what I need her to be, then couldn’t she at least give me the feeling of saying it is okay and not say stuff like “but you’re here for you.” And “I AM your therapist”. Of course she is but if she asks me what I want from her or expect of her or actually, how she can help me then why cut me off like that!?
I would be fine with her "only" being my T if she was a good enough T that this would be good enough. I feel like there's something missing.
Hi Frosty...
I'm sorry you are struggling with your T and, of course, you do not write too much about her. This is exactly what you should be doing here. This is the place to get support, to work out these puzzling feelings and to perhaps come away with some clarity that will help you move forward. This is the perfect place for doing that.
You got some wonderful replies by the others but I just wanted to add my own observations from what you wrote. It sounds to me like your T is keeping herself at a distance from you and you are feeling that. She is not engaging in the intimate relationship that you need in order to feel safe enough to talk openly and to reveal your deepest fears and thoughts. And I think the fact that you have to tell HER this stuff, how she needs to be with you, what you need and then defend what you need to her is making you feel out of sorts.
When you described the session I could so identify with it because I would have these same conversations with my oldT. I was the one who had to tell him what I needed him to say and then... well it sort of lost the impact when I had to put the words in his mouth. I distinctly remember one time telling him that I never felt safe anywhere in my life and that I needed to know that I was safe in that room with him. He was so puzzled by this need of mine. Of course I only knew him a few months at the time and didn't realize what I was struggling with nor did I know he was clueless about attachment and trauma. When he didn't offer me reassurance I again tried and said...I need to know I'm safe here. He looked at me for a minute and then asked "oh, you need me to say that to you?" Uh, duh, yeah I do! So he said in the most half-hearted, uncomfortable way "you will always be safe here". Yeah right. I should have seen that blazing red flag.
I have none of these conversations with my new T. He just already knows this stuff and is actively working with me to make me feel safe in the relationship, stresses the importance of the relationship (with boundaries that we discuss and are both well aware of), he stresses how this relationship will change both of us and that he is open to that and to learning about me and from me. He does not back away from the intimacy... he allows me to move towards it and he embraces it without fear or defensiveness and he never says...I need to do this by myself or for myself. He knows that will come with time. And he knows I know it too and so we can get down to doing the therapy and talking about how the relationship is growing and changing is a big part of that therapy.
I get the feeling your T is not so comfortable with the intimacy that trauma and attachment therapy brings. Frosty, are you feeling very attached to her? Would you consider seeing someone else at least for a consultation to help you decide what to do? You can try to tell her how you feel and explain what you need but if this continues to upset you then it may be worth seeking another T. I know ... believe me I know how gut wrenching that decision is but to continually be frustrated and upset with your T is not a good choice either, especially if she just cannot provide what you need.
Morgs... how nice to see you here again. I hope you are okay and hope you stick around.
TN
quote:No, no work on a body level. Is it called body work therapy? Or what is it called? I have no idea what sorts of therapies are out there, I have to read up on them. But she is just CBT, does specialize in traumas, anxiety, phobias, eating disorders and a couple more things. Uhm, this might be a very stupid question and I’m really, really sorry if it’s inappropriate but I wasn’t really sexually abused, just bullied (which my T said is a trauma, I’m still not sure), does that count? I mean you know, is that “enough” for body level therapy?
There are many different types of body therapy. The type that my T uses is called Sensorimotor Psychotherapy. There is also Hakomi, AEDP, and I'm sure others but right now I can't recall. As far as your last question, trauma is trauma and if it affected you in a traumatic way and is interfering with your life now then it counts. I'm sorry that you went through that. Bullying is a perfect trauma to work on a body level. There are so many ways to help you process that and it really lends itself to body work.
quote:I’m a bit at a loss with the whole touching thing. Normally, I’m very open to hugs and unless you touch my face, I’m totally fine with touch. With HER however… Until yesterday I wished she would hug me yet when I sat in her office, that wish was gone! And yesterday at the end of the session she bent forward to get her planner from the table between us and sat like this for a few moments because she explained something and I felt the urge to back away. She didn’t try to invade my personal space, she was just bent forward. And I know if she did touch me I’d feel uncomfortable. So what do I do with that? I do wish she would also physically comfort me when I am upset but at the same time I want her to back off when she is even one step closer. I don’t know this from the reality because I really do not have issues with touch. Yet in therapy I do.
This is the perfect issue to work with for body work. Not all T's use touch and that is ok, but you can still work with this mixed feeling that you have. On some level you want her to comfort you and be close, but when she leaned forward you had a reaction on a body level that said "back off!". What my T would do in that situation is to actually practice setting a boundary with her and pushing her away. Allow my body to see that I am able to set a boundary with her and keep that distance if I choose to. It's amazing what can happen when you work with these defenses.
quote:I’m very impressed by how you could sit with your panic and wait it out. I run. The thing is, I don’t know why I panic… it’s usually not something obvious, I’m still looking for the trigger of when I felt overwhelming panic. The basic fear is that when I reach out and tell what has happened in my life that wasn’t really nice is that that person will hurt me one way or the other in the long run! Not necessarily in that moment but in the long run. So sitting with the panic and seeing that T is still there helps not too much because I still worry. At least with her I do.
I'm not saying it is easy, but even with the feeling of wanting to run it is possible to work at a body level and even if the change doesn't feel like it takes place in your thinking and knowledge, it does change at a body level. When you drop into your body and only focus on the physical manifestation of the panic it is much easier to sit with it and just follow the sensations until they pass.
As far as switching T's. I know it is a daunting process and it would be difficult to do, but if things don't improve with your T it might really be something to consider. You could spend a great deal more time with her and only increase your hurt and frustration or you could find someone who gets it and get through the healing and be able to carry on with your life. (((hugs))) I know it is hard and I'm so sorry for that.
Permafrost,
I have not forgotten about you, but STRM's answer was so good, I am rethinking what I was going to say. She came at it from a different angle then I was going to and made such good points that I'm not sure what I was going to say would really apply to your situation. (OK, and I wrote a VERY long update on my visit to my T that took much longer than I expected and it's quite late here.) So I'm going to take another run at it tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
AG
I have not forgotten about you, but STRM's answer was so good, I am rethinking what I was going to say. She came at it from a different angle then I was going to and made such good points that I'm not sure what I was going to say would really apply to your situation. (OK, and I wrote a VERY long update on my visit to my T that took much longer than I expected and it's quite late here.) So I'm going to take another run at it tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
AG
Sorry I am late to this thread. I have to be honest here and say that I would be crushed if I had that convo with my T. I would have a difficult time working with someone who could not bring themselves to tell me they care. From what you have written here, it almost sounds like emotional with-holding and isn't that emotional abuse?
Maybe I am way off base but I do not like how that conversation with your T went, PF and I can totally understand why you have a problem with it. It isn't like you were asking her to be your friend or mother. You just want to know that she actually cares. Why is it so hard for her to just tell you that??? I don't get it.
Maybe I am way off base but I do not like how that conversation with your T went, PF and I can totally understand why you have a problem with it. It isn't like you were asking her to be your friend or mother. You just want to know that she actually cares. Why is it so hard for her to just tell you that??? I don't get it.
PF,
OK, I finally made it back. First off, I want to say that I thought STRM's answer was spot on, and that part of the problem is that you are sensing a lack of attunement from your T. The angle I was going to come from, at least partially because I had discussed it in depth that day with my T, was about how therapy, no matter how perfectly the T is doing it, is still NOT enough. BUT and this is a big but, there are things that a T needs to provide in order for you to heal. So I see two sides to this, which is that your T is so busy emphasizing what you can't have, that she's not providing what you can. I'm going to try to explain what I meant about not being able to get enough, but it's difficult to explain and it took me a lot of struggle, anger and confusion until I really understood it. I also want to make it clear that I am very much speaking from my own experience and understanding, so what I'm saying wont' necessarily be applicable or true for other people, I just know it was for me.
And it would be easy to hear what I have to say as my saying you're doing something wrong, when you're not at all. One of the things that I think your T could provide that she isn't, is a safe place for you to express your feelings and letting you know that she understands your feelings and that it makes sense that you have them.
I fought the boundaries like you wouldn't believe and my T and I spent a lot of sessions, phone calls, and emails discussing them. And as I have said elsewhere, my T is a boundary ninja, so his boundaries never moved. However, he welcomed and normalized all of my feelings about them. I sent him a really deep, heartfelt email once after he disclosed something to my husband and I in a couples' session (very much for my husband's benefit, it was very appropriate self-disclosure). I poured my heart out in a very vulnerable way and his response was "Hi Thank you very much. T" I was disappointed and hurt (and angry, although that took me alot longer to get to.) So I talked to him about it. And it turned out that his answer was very deliberate. I told him that I kept feeling like I was running into this wall. That I would find a door in the wall, but it was closed fast. He did explain why the boundaries were necessary but he also told me that he understood how very frustrating they could be, that it was very understandable and even in some ways, healthy that I wanted to know him better. That he recognized how it could bring up feelings of not being cared for and being denied what I needed. So I didn't just get "that's the way it is, deal." I may not have got what I wanted, but I was listened to, heard and affirmed and that's the part that told me that I mattered. That's the part I think is missing from your T.
So here's the other side of the coin in terms of what we can't get out of therapy, why we want it so badly, why therapy isn't enough, and how we have to go through a struggle to accept that.
When there are attachment injuries, this necessarily means we did not get what we needed when we were little. As children we were supposed to be at the center of someone's life, cared for, paid attention to, with our needs identified, explained to us and met, to be loved and accepted and treated as special just for who we were. No one gets perfectly, but people with secure attachment get all of that "good enough" to see the world as a benign place, people as safe and responsive, and themselves as mattering. If we don't get our needs met, we are wary of people because they can hurt you as often as not, we must not be important because we were not listened to or cherished, and our needs shouldn't even be expressed, let alone met. These needs are a matter of life and death when we are small. They are also perfectly reasonable needs that all human beings have. We die without our caregivers there to meet our needs. So we will make due with whatever we can get, and resort to defense mechnisms to make up for what we couldn't. The one thing we cannot do is admit to ourselves that we are not getting everything we need. It's literally too threatening. And if you can't acknowledge a loss, how to you mourn it? And so these unmet needs are deeply buried but not banished.
We grow up and for many of us with insecure attachment, we go on a lifelong hunt to find someone to finally meet those needs. I know that on some level, I really believed that if I could find someone who could see all of me, and love me enough, then I would finally be ok and the pain would be over. And I looked really hard. There was a pattern in my life of finally finding the person!! Only to find that at some point, it really wasn't. I wasn't getting what I needed, I just thought they could provide it. And so I went searching again. It was being able to examine my relationship with my T that allowed me to finally see this pattern stretching back through my life.
But here's the problem. When we're children, we are still developing and can take things in on a level and make them an integral part of ourselves in a way we can't do later in life. There is also a level of dependency on and expectations of the adults in our life that is appropriate to that developmental stage but isn't appropriate for an adult to expect. So what we are looking for is literally impossible to provide because the time has passed in which we could take in what was provided. So even if someone could committ to give us what our parents didn't (which is a very large committment) it still wouldn't be enough. What we didn't get from our parents was a real loss. And the only way to heal a real loss, is to face it, accept it and mourn it. That allows us to heal and move past the loss. We will carry a scar but can still thrive despite that wounding. But because that loss was once so threatening to face, it can be a real struggle to give up that hope of still being able to get what we didn't. For to give up that hope is to feel the loss and the pain is horrible. I think it was one of the worst things I ever faced. So a T draws boundaries around their time, around their caring, around what they are willing to do, so that they don't hold out the promise of providing something they can't. I think there are some T's that are so busy making that distinction that it can come across as uncaring. But I also believe we can see them as uncaring because we want (and feel like we badly need) something they could provide if they were just willing to, but they don't. How can we believe they care? I remember once talking with my T about how angry I was that he could hear exactly what I wanted, know how painful it was that I didn't get it, express how unfair it was that I didn't get it, that I deserved better and still tell me no. What the hell was wrong with him and how could he tell me he cared? That this wasn't about not being able to get it, it was about how fundamentally unlovable I was. He explained to me over and over and over that not getting those things when I was small was a denial of legitimate needs while not getting those things from him was actually about what was healthy for me. My T knew the only way for me to heal and actually move on with my life, was to face my loss and mourn it.
But the really difficult part was separating out what I could get and what needed to be mourned and that's where my T's boundaries were so important. Once I got to the point where I understood that he cared, then I knew if he was withholding something, it was because it wasn't possible to get it. So I threw myself against his boundaries time after time, asking for what I wanted and expressing all my feelings, desparately looking for a way past his boundaries until at last I realized that there wasn't a way past them. So I was faced with this incredible contradiction of a man who completely accepted who I was, worked really hard to be attuned to me and to understand me, who showed me incredible compassion and gentleness when I was in pain, allowed me to contact him at any time, night and day, was there for me to depend on in a way I never had before, stayed when I was in pain, was happy when I rejoiced. He was everything I had looked for, yet it wasn't enough, it still hurt. To accept that he would not be more than my was to accept that there was no way to make that loss not have happened. I had to experience the loss, feel that pain and mourn.
So it can be so difficult to sort through as we do the work. Is our T withholding something they could be doing? Or are we asking for the impossible? Are they not understanding us or do they understand us but the answer is still no? The only way I found to work through this was to continue to talk about how I felt, as honestly as I could, over and over and over. I had to keep telling my T how I felt, and how I suspected he felt, so he could tell me if I was right or not. And I had to follow my feelings to the beliefs that informed them. But in order to do that, I did need an attuned T who was willing to hear all of my feelings without getting frustrated with me for having them and/or expressing them and could help me understand them. So while I think on some level you may be struggling with wanting something you can't get, I also think you're struggling with not getting some things you should be.
I am really struggling to express this, so much of it was implicitly learned from being with my T and was understanding borne out of some very painful struggles and nothing I have said feels adequate to actually describe what I mean. I hope some of this helps.
AG
OK, I finally made it back. First off, I want to say that I thought STRM's answer was spot on, and that part of the problem is that you are sensing a lack of attunement from your T. The angle I was going to come from, at least partially because I had discussed it in depth that day with my T, was about how therapy, no matter how perfectly the T is doing it, is still NOT enough. BUT and this is a big but, there are things that a T needs to provide in order for you to heal. So I see two sides to this, which is that your T is so busy emphasizing what you can't have, that she's not providing what you can. I'm going to try to explain what I meant about not being able to get enough, but it's difficult to explain and it took me a lot of struggle, anger and confusion until I really understood it. I also want to make it clear that I am very much speaking from my own experience and understanding, so what I'm saying wont' necessarily be applicable or true for other people, I just know it was for me.
And it would be easy to hear what I have to say as my saying you're doing something wrong, when you're not at all. One of the things that I think your T could provide that she isn't, is a safe place for you to express your feelings and letting you know that she understands your feelings and that it makes sense that you have them.
I fought the boundaries like you wouldn't believe and my T and I spent a lot of sessions, phone calls, and emails discussing them. And as I have said elsewhere, my T is a boundary ninja, so his boundaries never moved. However, he welcomed and normalized all of my feelings about them. I sent him a really deep, heartfelt email once after he disclosed something to my husband and I in a couples' session (very much for my husband's benefit, it was very appropriate self-disclosure). I poured my heart out in a very vulnerable way and his response was "Hi Thank you very much. T" I was disappointed and hurt (and angry, although that took me alot longer to get to.) So I talked to him about it. And it turned out that his answer was very deliberate. I told him that I kept feeling like I was running into this wall. That I would find a door in the wall, but it was closed fast. He did explain why the boundaries were necessary but he also told me that he understood how very frustrating they could be, that it was very understandable and even in some ways, healthy that I wanted to know him better. That he recognized how it could bring up feelings of not being cared for and being denied what I needed. So I didn't just get "that's the way it is, deal." I may not have got what I wanted, but I was listened to, heard and affirmed and that's the part that told me that I mattered. That's the part I think is missing from your T.
So here's the other side of the coin in terms of what we can't get out of therapy, why we want it so badly, why therapy isn't enough, and how we have to go through a struggle to accept that.
When there are attachment injuries, this necessarily means we did not get what we needed when we were little. As children we were supposed to be at the center of someone's life, cared for, paid attention to, with our needs identified, explained to us and met, to be loved and accepted and treated as special just for who we were. No one gets perfectly, but people with secure attachment get all of that "good enough" to see the world as a benign place, people as safe and responsive, and themselves as mattering. If we don't get our needs met, we are wary of people because they can hurt you as often as not, we must not be important because we were not listened to or cherished, and our needs shouldn't even be expressed, let alone met. These needs are a matter of life and death when we are small. They are also perfectly reasonable needs that all human beings have. We die without our caregivers there to meet our needs. So we will make due with whatever we can get, and resort to defense mechnisms to make up for what we couldn't. The one thing we cannot do is admit to ourselves that we are not getting everything we need. It's literally too threatening. And if you can't acknowledge a loss, how to you mourn it? And so these unmet needs are deeply buried but not banished.
We grow up and for many of us with insecure attachment, we go on a lifelong hunt to find someone to finally meet those needs. I know that on some level, I really believed that if I could find someone who could see all of me, and love me enough, then I would finally be ok and the pain would be over. And I looked really hard. There was a pattern in my life of finally finding the person!! Only to find that at some point, it really wasn't. I wasn't getting what I needed, I just thought they could provide it. And so I went searching again. It was being able to examine my relationship with my T that allowed me to finally see this pattern stretching back through my life.
But here's the problem. When we're children, we are still developing and can take things in on a level and make them an integral part of ourselves in a way we can't do later in life. There is also a level of dependency on and expectations of the adults in our life that is appropriate to that developmental stage but isn't appropriate for an adult to expect. So what we are looking for is literally impossible to provide because the time has passed in which we could take in what was provided. So even if someone could committ to give us what our parents didn't (which is a very large committment) it still wouldn't be enough. What we didn't get from our parents was a real loss. And the only way to heal a real loss, is to face it, accept it and mourn it. That allows us to heal and move past the loss. We will carry a scar but can still thrive despite that wounding. But because that loss was once so threatening to face, it can be a real struggle to give up that hope of still being able to get what we didn't. For to give up that hope is to feel the loss and the pain is horrible. I think it was one of the worst things I ever faced. So a T draws boundaries around their time, around their caring, around what they are willing to do, so that they don't hold out the promise of providing something they can't. I think there are some T's that are so busy making that distinction that it can come across as uncaring. But I also believe we can see them as uncaring because we want (and feel like we badly need) something they could provide if they were just willing to, but they don't. How can we believe they care? I remember once talking with my T about how angry I was that he could hear exactly what I wanted, know how painful it was that I didn't get it, express how unfair it was that I didn't get it, that I deserved better and still tell me no. What the hell was wrong with him and how could he tell me he cared? That this wasn't about not being able to get it, it was about how fundamentally unlovable I was. He explained to me over and over and over that not getting those things when I was small was a denial of legitimate needs while not getting those things from him was actually about what was healthy for me. My T knew the only way for me to heal and actually move on with my life, was to face my loss and mourn it.
But the really difficult part was separating out what I could get and what needed to be mourned and that's where my T's boundaries were so important. Once I got to the point where I understood that he cared, then I knew if he was withholding something, it was because it wasn't possible to get it. So I threw myself against his boundaries time after time, asking for what I wanted and expressing all my feelings, desparately looking for a way past his boundaries until at last I realized that there wasn't a way past them. So I was faced with this incredible contradiction of a man who completely accepted who I was, worked really hard to be attuned to me and to understand me, who showed me incredible compassion and gentleness when I was in pain, allowed me to contact him at any time, night and day, was there for me to depend on in a way I never had before, stayed when I was in pain, was happy when I rejoiced. He was everything I had looked for, yet it wasn't enough, it still hurt. To accept that he would not be more than my was to accept that there was no way to make that loss not have happened. I had to experience the loss, feel that pain and mourn.
So it can be so difficult to sort through as we do the work. Is our T withholding something they could be doing? Or are we asking for the impossible? Are they not understanding us or do they understand us but the answer is still no? The only way I found to work through this was to continue to talk about how I felt, as honestly as I could, over and over and over. I had to keep telling my T how I felt, and how I suspected he felt, so he could tell me if I was right or not. And I had to follow my feelings to the beliefs that informed them. But in order to do that, I did need an attuned T who was willing to hear all of my feelings without getting frustrated with me for having them and/or expressing them and could help me understand them. So while I think on some level you may be struggling with wanting something you can't get, I also think you're struggling with not getting some things you should be.
I am really struggling to express this, so much of it was implicitly learned from being with my T and was understanding borne out of some very painful struggles and nothing I have said feels adequate to actually describe what I mean. I hope some of this helps.
AG
Permafrost,
So late to this thread but it is really interesting. I've had similar conversations with my T. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I keep thinking that everytime I think he doesn't care about me, it's some transference thing from the past. But if we keep talking about it and talking about and chipping away at the reasons why I don't think he cares while he defines maybe even by showing me the ways in which he does care, eventually I may be able to feel that he cares in the way that he can. Does that make sense? I'll accept the boundaries for what they are and the caring for what it is, I think???? I hope????
So late to this thread but it is really interesting. I've had similar conversations with my T. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I keep thinking that everytime I think he doesn't care about me, it's some transference thing from the past. But if we keep talking about it and talking about and chipping away at the reasons why I don't think he cares while he defines maybe even by showing me the ways in which he does care, eventually I may be able to feel that he cares in the way that he can. Does that make sense? I'll accept the boundaries for what they are and the caring for what it is, I think???? I hope????
Permafrost,
Actually, I have another take on it. Tell me what you think about this: that when you don't feel your T's care, it's because she's not giving you something you equateed with care growing up that was actually dysfunctional and that's why you are so uncomfortable. For instance, in my family, we took care of each other's emotions. I might expect T to do that for me. But that's not functional in the real world. So when I don't feel him doing that for me, I experience it as being cold and unloving when actually, he's trying to teach me the difference between real caring and dysfunctional caring? So, you could also be mourning the loss of what you did get that wasn't caring but felt like caring because that's what your family did? Does that make sense?
Actually, I have another take on it. Tell me what you think about this: that when you don't feel your T's care, it's because she's not giving you something you equateed with care growing up that was actually dysfunctional and that's why you are so uncomfortable. For instance, in my family, we took care of each other's emotions. I might expect T to do that for me. But that's not functional in the real world. So when I don't feel him doing that for me, I experience it as being cold and unloving when actually, he's trying to teach me the difference between real caring and dysfunctional caring? So, you could also be mourning the loss of what you did get that wasn't caring but felt like caring because that's what your family did? Does that make sense?
Permafrost,
On the second post, after I wrote it, I realized it was wrong. In my FOO, we didn't look after other's emotions. We took care of my parent's emotions and needs and mine, at least, were neglected. And so, I think I am seeing that I've been spending my life looking for someone to take care of those emotional needs. And, I've noticed that when I've gotten mad at my T, it's because he's not taking care of one of my needs and then I will start to think he doesn't care about me. Instead of me learning to take care of my needs myself. Does that make more sense? One time I remember looking for "care" from him was when I was seeing him weekly but was feeling increasingly uncomfortable. I told him that I might go to every other week and he said he thought it was a great idea. I really wanted him to "take care" of me. Tell me what, that he likes me? give me permission to stay weekly? that I wanted him to make the decision for me so I didn't have to make it for myself and put myself in a position of anxiety? and, so I wasn't sure he cared about me then.
And, so I'm just wondering what type of caring is it that you want? Okay so maybe I never learned to care for my needs because they were neglected in my family. so our T's should be helping us identify our needs and learn how to get them met out IRL, yes? But my point is that it's not healthy or functional for me to need someone else to take care of my emotional needs and could be why I feel so screwed sometimes IRL. so it's really not reasonable for me to be mad at T for not taking care of MY needs.
I had an appointment with T2 today and we talked about the "You don't care about me conversation". what he said about it was very interesting. that it should really be a sidebar. that you can learn interesting things about yourself through that conversation but it should get resolved and therapy should be able to move on. It SHOULDN"T become the focus of the therapy. and that, if it doesn't get resolved, that maybe then it's time to move on. whether it's just a chemistry thing or whatever it it, not to cast blame, but just to move on after you've tried unsuccessfully to resolve it.
On the second post, after I wrote it, I realized it was wrong. In my FOO, we didn't look after other's emotions. We took care of my parent's emotions and needs and mine, at least, were neglected. And so, I think I am seeing that I've been spending my life looking for someone to take care of those emotional needs. And, I've noticed that when I've gotten mad at my T, it's because he's not taking care of one of my needs and then I will start to think he doesn't care about me. Instead of me learning to take care of my needs myself. Does that make more sense? One time I remember looking for "care" from him was when I was seeing him weekly but was feeling increasingly uncomfortable. I told him that I might go to every other week and he said he thought it was a great idea. I really wanted him to "take care" of me. Tell me what, that he likes me? give me permission to stay weekly? that I wanted him to make the decision for me so I didn't have to make it for myself and put myself in a position of anxiety? and, so I wasn't sure he cared about me then.
And, so I'm just wondering what type of caring is it that you want? Okay so maybe I never learned to care for my needs because they were neglected in my family. so our T's should be helping us identify our needs and learn how to get them met out IRL, yes? But my point is that it's not healthy or functional for me to need someone else to take care of my emotional needs and could be why I feel so screwed sometimes IRL. so it's really not reasonable for me to be mad at T for not taking care of MY needs.
I had an appointment with T2 today and we talked about the "You don't care about me conversation". what he said about it was very interesting. that it should really be a sidebar. that you can learn interesting things about yourself through that conversation but it should get resolved and therapy should be able to move on. It SHOULDN"T become the focus of the therapy. and that, if it doesn't get resolved, that maybe then it's time to move on. whether it's just a chemistry thing or whatever it it, not to cast blame, but just to move on after you've tried unsuccessfully to resolve it.
Permafrost,
Oh yes, his reaction did make me feel sad. He has now done a 360 and lets me be completely dependent upon him. It's all very confusing although I did read an article about our "normal personalities" and our "emotional personalities" ... and that sometimes one of our emotional personalities is very dependent but another one o maybe even our normal personality is very indepedent and that the independent one can detest the dependent one. That the t has to befriend usually the "normal personality first. I don't know if I'm explaining it right but maybe he was befriending my independent side. who the hell knows? I always read into things and I'm always wrong.
maybe you can try telling T what you wrote on your post and see what happens???? Good luck. Keep us posted.
Oh yes, his reaction did make me feel sad. He has now done a 360 and lets me be completely dependent upon him. It's all very confusing although I did read an article about our "normal personalities" and our "emotional personalities" ... and that sometimes one of our emotional personalities is very dependent but another one o maybe even our normal personality is very indepedent and that the independent one can detest the dependent one. That the t has to befriend usually the "normal personality first. I don't know if I'm explaining it right but maybe he was befriending my independent side. who the hell knows? I always read into things and I'm always wrong.
maybe you can try telling T what you wrote on your post and see what happens???? Good luck. Keep us posted.