oh yuck LG. I am sorry you are feeling so bad. I think everything you are feeling is completely regular in the given situation. I think you know that you are not the first person to "cyber-stalk" your T. I have to say that if my T was not so damned careful about locking her FB page down, I am not sure I could avoid the temptation. Ok, actually I know I couldn't. It is natural to want to know more about the people we are so attached to and that know so much about us. I do have to agree though, it really stinks that in attempts to feel closer to them, we can end up feeling like a creepy stalker. Try not to beat yourself up about it. The information is public and on FB and her privacy is really her responsibility. Please don't cancel. I hope you can feel ok about this in a day or 2.
(((LG)))

I agree that her privacy is her responsibility. My T has a Facebook page, but it's a business page. I just found out now. It has one "like" and one "check-in." I won't click on it, because I'm afraid he can see who has visited...not sure if Facebook shares that info when you're not already friends. I feel like a bit of a stalker even when I go to his website and see his pic (which he chooses to post). So, even if it's their responsibility, I realize it can still make you feel yuck...

Ugh, REALLY want to know what is on that Facebook page, almost enough to create a fake Facebook identity just for stalking, LOL...but not quite. I hate being so obsessed.

Anyway, I'd say try to trust your T1 to take care of herself. I know it's hard. I avoided telling T how bad I was doing at the end of last week's session, because I didn't want to "make him" run over with me...ended up with big regrets there. It was an awful night trying to face that stuff alone...

LG,

What an awful position to be in. The situation in and of itself would present a huge problem for me and honestly, I think the only way out of this one is to be completely upfront with T1 about knowing what you know. Now I know this will be really hard. It would be hard for me but I just don't know how you would suppress this stuff and not let it interfere with therapy????

Please straighten me out again. T1 is phoneT? Maybe she needs to know that her girlfriend is posting this stuff on FB.

LG,

But my T puts nothing about himself out there. He's seems to take his privacy very seriously. I don't know anything about him. He lives fairly far away. Our lives don't intersect at all. In fact, it's come up in discussion that I could possibly run into him at a bicycling event because he's an avid cyclist and I'm just getting really involved in the sport. He said, it would be okay wouldn't it? And I said no, it would not be okay.

I know I feel very jealous about all the other people in his life and the only way I cope is to block it all out. Oh, is there a way out of all these awful feelings? Sorry, don't mean to change the subject here.

I would find the situation you are in very difficult to handle. I did find that when I was googling my T more, the thing that was bothering me and the reason I was googling him is that I needed to find out if he was rich. I know that sounds odd but I felt as though I couldn't trust him if he was some rich, cold therapist. Just a little hang up. Once I found out that he really wasn't, I stopped googling him.

I bring this up because I'm wondering if there is something in particular you need to know about T1 and once you know it, you can put that baby to rest?

LG,

I put my T on a pedestal too. Is it some developmental stage we missed and have to go through? Maybe some day we will break through to the other side and not put them on a pedestal anymore? T told me I have to fall in love with myself. Maybe when I do that, I won't feel the need to put him in a pedestal anymore? It's so hard to fall in love with myself when I feel SO unreliable.

I totally understand that you can't talk to her about what you know. I wouldn't be able to either. I can dish out advice but I can't follow it.

It's really awful that her girlfriend posts that stuff on FB. How old is T1? How old is her girlfriend? If I was a therapist I think I would insist that anyone I was close to not post stuff on FB.

I'm sorry you are in the position you are in. I actually close my eyes when it comes to my T because I don't want to know anything about him. My feelings are out of control and I know if I knew anything about him it would make things so much worse for me. For instance, I saw a picture of his dog on his desk and got insanely jealous that he loves his dog and not me. I just don't know how I'm going to work through all these feelings. Sorry to hijack your thread. I'm just feeling pretty hopeless tonight of ever getting my life back to any kind of normal.

quote:

For instance, I saw a picture of his dog on his desk and got insanely jealous that he loves his dog and not me.

Liese - My T called me for my Friday phone session in the car, because he had to go to his son's birthday lunch right after. Ugh, my wonderful T, knowing my transference feelings...could you not remind me that there is a kid out there (who is in my generation, no less) who actually gets to receive your fatherly care and affection? It did help that at the end of my session, he said he "really wished we could keep talking for another hour," because we were into something important. Knowing that he wanted to talk to me, despite having other plans, helped a bit. I do get that knowing anything about them is a double-edged sword. As LG states, knowing they are real, human beings can be helpful...but it can also hurt to know they have real lives we don't get to be a part of. It's especially hard for me when my transference feelings for him are in high gear.

For me, it's almost like a kid idealizing their parent, so I'd bet it's related to transference. It's like I'm a little girl who says, "My daddy can fix cars and motorcycles and cook the yummiest food and runs five miles a day and can play the drums and the guitar and is so smart...oh, and he could beat up your dad too!" (by the way, all things my real dad did in there, except beating up other dads, as far as I know). That's where I feel I am about my T.

I had a dream where he came to my church and I wanted him to jam with our band (T plays...well, almost all the instruments, but mostly bass and lead guitar). I wanted to brag to everyone there, "This is my T! He's so awesome," but he kept giving me disapproving glances to tell me I shouldn't let on that we knew each other. I sat by him and rested my hand on his (back of his hand near his wrist) and he let me for a while and then moved it away, slowly, but forcefully. Mean, evil, dream T! Anyway, in my case, I do think the pedestal thing is about some earlier stage I'm experiencing.

Oh yeah, LG, I remember reading about a therapist who was talking about transference and he said things like that, like we don't know about their depression and the things they struggle with. Is the therapist/hoarder a successful therapist?

My T told me today that he has 160 current patients. (We were talking about the insurance issue) Some of course only come once a month. He averages 40 patients a week in four days. And he teaches two classes. Well, now, donn't I feel like a crumb just as I was starting to feel important to him? I am just so amazed that my T can get up every day, see all these people, teach two classes, have a three-day weekend, and enjoy friends and family. I want to get up every day and do what I have to do to earn a living and take care of my family and go out to nice restaurants with friends on weekends. Maybe that's why I'm so freaking jealous. He has the life I want. Not necessarily to be a therapist, but just to be a functioning human being. Instead of hiding out from the world in my house.

He called my insurance company for me on his day off. He also called me back on his day off within 15 minutes of when I said I'd be available when I was in distress and couldn't function last Friday. I can't get my f**king bills paid. I can't keep my house clean. I am a very deficient human being.

LG,

That's a tough situation. One in which it would be nice if you could un-ring the bell so to speak. I'm sorry that it is bothering you so much. I would probably just try to put it out of your mind as much as possible and focus on you during your sessions because after all that is what you are both there to do.

In my experience, T's often have more issues than even the average person. I think it is because many come into the field because of experiences that they have had. The best T's to find are those that have had these experiences, but have done their own work and continue to do their own work. I say continue because of course they are human and nobody in life gets to a point where there isn't a single thing they need to work on. I think there are many therapists out there that get into the field and haven't done their own work and that is where it can get tricky IMHO. It has helped me to realize my current T is human, not only because of things she has shared with me that make it clear she has had and still has her own shit to deal with, but because my relationship with my old T ended up going outside of therapy after we were done. It was shocking to see the difference in how my old T was in therapy vs in real life and it made her so human, but in a way that was almost painful for me. To get to know her children and hear them complain about their mother not spending enough time with them or not really being "there" with them was a real eye opener. Not my T, no way. Well, of course my T because she is human. Just as I am able to compartmentalize and function quite well when I need to, T's can do the same thing. They come into work and they are there to focus on others and get their work done. When they leave the office they are just like the rest of us. They are tired from a long day of work, they still have to make dinner, they get sick, they have relationship issues etc. It's part of being human.

Seriously, LG, what I thought is, "That sounds like the kind of thing I would see on the FB page of one of my little sisters' friends, who are in the 18-21 age range...that's not what I'd really expect of a mature relationship. I get how that can challenge our trust in our Ts when something in their own life becomes known and is like, "WTF?"

LG,

Eek, unstable and immature indeed. Is her wall public or do you see it through the friends of friends feature? Still, I have mine locked so friends of friends can't see it. I'd think most people would, but then she herself isn't a T so maybe she isn't as concerned about privacy.

Wierd, LG. Glad she was in good spirits.

I know I'd have lots of mother issues after two weeks with my mother. I hope you had a nice trip though. Did T2 leave yet for vacation? How often will you talk to T1 while she is gone?

Do you get along with your mother? I can't put my finger on what is wrong with my relationship with my mother but I feel so much guilt that I don't love her more. If you just looked in from the outside, she might seem like the perfect mother. She was a wonderful housewife. The table was beautiful every holiday. She wanted everything to be perfect.

But here's how our convo went the other.
MOM: Oh Liese, it's awful you have to drive those kids around everywhere.
Liese: It's okay Mom. I'm committed to it. It's good for the kids to be involved in sports. It's better than them sitting home doing nothing. Not like me, I've been depressed my whole life.
MOM: Oh, that's ridiculous. You did not suffer from depression.

I've struggled with depression from the age of 14 onward. It makes me so sad that I can't share that part of my life with my own mother, that I can't be honest with her about who I am. It also makes me sad that she never recognized it. I guess it was just normal for me to be depressed.

Sorry, Lg, to highjack again. I'd love to talk about mother issues if you want to throw some stuff out there.

Liese,

T2 leaves for vacation on Monday. I have an appointment with her on Thursday which will be my last appointment for 4 weeks and one day. I will talk with T1 twice a week while T2 is gone, maybe more if needed but honestly, I don't get much from my sessions with her so I don't think i want more than two appointments with her per week while T2 i gone. and when T2 gets back, I'd like to cut back my appts with T1 to once a week.

I did not get along with my mother, unfortunately. While I was in Europe, I did not have cell phone service, but I did email with T1 every day. She is not usually much of an emailer but she made sure to check her email every day while I was there, so that was nice.

While in Europe, my mother and I had a couple of big fights, one of which she hit me for the first time in about 16 years or so. She was very physically violent with me as a child, so it was really triggering to be hit by her again now that I am an adult. T1 was very sweet in her emails to me about this, but when I talked to her today on the phone, its like the fact that my mother hit me while on vacation was completely swept under the rug. I am going to chalk that up to T having some serious relationship issues of her own this week.

I'm sorry to hear that you mother is so dismissive of your struggles with depression. My mother is also very dismissive of the issues I've dealt with over the years. I think they do that because they feel like failures if they admit that their child suffered from depression. They are afraid they will be to blame for it. What do you think about that theory?

ps. you are not hijacking my threads. Stop apologzing!

LG,

Yes, I think you are right that they would feel like they were failures. It just makes it so much worse for me that she won't acknowledge it. Like, an I'm sorry it was so awful honey, would really go a long way. My T told me I should feel sorry for her that she is so limited. He's right but it's still hard to get passed the anger. I guess it's going to have have to be the same story, grieving what I didn't have in a mother.

I'm SO sorry that your mother hit you while you were away. That must have been awful. I can't even imagine being an adult and being hit by my mother. I'm also sorry that T1 swept it under the rug during your session. That hurts. It sounds like you are kind of becoming a little less reliant on T1, well except for the up and coming vacation?

Did T2 offer to contact you while she is away? Or is it not really an issue because she knows you have T1 to fall back on? My T is going away for a week soon. It will be hard for me but I'm tempted not to ask for any contact because I think I can handle it and I also think he deserves a break. I'm not sure he would be willing to agree to any contact anyway. As long as he promises he'll still care about me while he's away, I think I can handle it. If it were longer than a week, I'm not sure I could handle it.

Liese,

I think its sweet of you that you feel your T deserves a break. I feel the same way, although I do think 4 weeks is a bit excessive for a therapist to be gone.

I do not think I will have any outside contact with her while she is traveling. She is not as open to outside contact as T1 is. In a way, I like it that way. I feel that T1 is almost too liberal in her outside contact and it encourages dependency.

Its interesting that you used the term "grieving" to describe what you didn't have in your mother. I have used that term with both Ts this week to describe my own mother. I think in some ways I have already grieved what I didn't have in her, but now I am grieving that I dont' think I love her and this is a bit unsettling for me. I feel guilty...I feel that I should love her because she's my mother and she has done a lot of nice things for me despite the abuse she's dished out. But I just can't feel any love towards her anymore. So now I am grieving that not only do I not have a mother who truly loves me....I also dont' have a mother that I truly love.

OH, LG, I have been feeling the same way about both my mother and my MIL. (And I've been doing a lot of grieving lately.) My MIL had a stroke and I feel so bad that I don't love her more, that I haven't been kinder to her. In a way, I'm glad it happened because I need to come to some kind of resolution about my own mother, who is getting on in years and has an incurable lung disease. She functions fairly well but I have to decide how much anger I am going to hold onto, what kind of relationship to have with her, what to expect from her, what not to expect, etc. She, like yours, has also been very giving financially but it was always with strings attached. She always wanted love back. I do feel bad for her that she never seemed to have felt as though she was loved or lovable. But it made it awful for me. If my children don't love me, I am 100% okay with that. In my book now, love has to be earned.

My mother is not fun to be around. I would never go to Europe with her. I think you were very brave. We are very different people and we have very different opinions, which could be okay if she was okay with me having different opinions but she's not. She just wants to vent to me about her shit and be validated. I don't want to hear it. Now I just tell her, you know you're talking to the wrong person on this issue.

And yes, 4 weeks is a little excessive. I agree. I'm surprised she hasn't brought it up to you? When my T went away 2 years ago for 2 weeks, he kept trying to bring it up and I kept saying, I'm fine with this, I'm fine. We had a fight before he left and I wasn't fine. If we hadn't had the fight, I would have been fine. I was mad at him for picking a fight before he left. I think he was trying to get me to process my feelings about his trip but I wasn't ready yet. Thanks for saying I'm sweet. I'm actually thinking it might be a good time for me to see how I can function without him since now I see him twice a week. Maybe I'll feel good being a little independent.

quote:

My mother is not fun to be around. I would never go to Europe with her. I think you were very brave. We are very different people and we have very different opinions, which could be okay if she was okay with me having different opinions but she's not. She just wants to vent to me about her shit and be validated.

Liese,

This sounds very similar to my mother. We are soooo different. The only thing we have in common really is that we like to travel and we like art and creative things. Our values are very different and there are many topics we cannot discuss without it leading to an argument.

I suppose I was brave going to Europe with her. I don't think i could do it again. I suppose I was hopeful that this trip could bring us closer, but it didn't.

on a side note, my T1's girlfriend updated her facebook relationship from being in a relationship to back to being single this morning. I can't believe how immature she is behaving, changing her relationship status every day. Meanwhile my T1 keeps on working and acting normal, replying to my texts about my problems, being there for me...all while her life is falling apart. God it must be so hard to be a T.

LG,

At least you have travel, art and creative things in common with your Mom! It must be a boundary thing, huh? I don't get wny they can't let us be our own people without it being too threatening to them. It's as if they would have to stretch themselves and get to know us a little bit huh? And, make room for differing opinions? It's as if their sense of self is dependent upon us being identical, at least that's the way it is with my mom. She seems to need that validation from me for her sense of self. It's brutal.

And the saga continues with the girlfriend huh? It must be wierd for you to know all this.

I do think you are very brave, LG! I cannot even fathom being near my mom for more than 30-60 minutes. That's the longest she stays at anything, including birthday parties, holidays, graduations, etc. The only time I spend more time around her than that is if I go see her play, but it's kind of different. It's like watching a stranger. She's got this energy about her when she plays piano and sings that you can tell it's what she was meant to do...and being a mom was so obviously not. Wow, that feels really...I don't have a word for how that feels. I feel bad for her, having six kids when it seems like she just wasn't meant to be a mom at all.

LG, maybe T1 is instigating the break up and feels good about it? I can imagine it might be very freeing to separate from someone who brings that kind of drama into your life. Not that it isn't still hard, but maybe there is more good than bad for her in moving on?

I would imagine as a T, it could be fairly common to be drawn to relationships where they end up as a caretaker and likely with some people who are lacking stability.

I remember a conversation I had a while ago with my T about people who are natural caretakers, or were socialized to be caretakers. I remember her saying it is a beautiful quality and it's how Ts come to be Ts, and it's also something many Ts need to be careful about in their personal lives.

Just thought of it when I read your post.

Regarding my mom, yeah. My older sisters got taken away when her boyfriend beat them (which I witnessed, I guess, but don't remember). They moved with their dad. My dad moved back in, because she had a breakdown. According to my oldest sister, when she was home on a visit, my mom ran out into the living room (where my dad was sleeping) and threw herself at him naked and begged him to make a baby with her. He said, "[Mom's name], we have three beautiful children already," and something about them not being able to take care of the ones they had. My sister said her next visit (a month later), my mom was dating future step-dad and talking about marriage. A week after she went home, my mom called and said she had gone to Vegas and got married. And then the next visit after that, she was pregnant. It was like, she thought having us would fix this void, but it never did. When she had her tubes tied after my little brother (who she had when she was 42), she told me (a month later), she wished she hadn't, because she wanted to have another. Then, that same year, she told me she wanted to give all the kids to my aunt and off herself (seemed like she was looking for me to "stop" her by telling her how great a mom she was and how much we needed her, which I kind of obliged, because what was I supposed to do?). I waver between objective, "WTF!?" analysis of the situation and empathetic feeling really sorry for whatever feelings make her act like she does.

Anyway, gosh dang it, taking over your thread again. I am just agreeing with you that really broken people tend to have a lot of kids, because they think it will fix things. Not everyone who has a ton of kids is like that. My old worship pastor and his wife have five kids and just always wanted a large family...both really great parents.

I feel really sorry for your T1, having to work out custody stuff. You're right. That must be really hard. How old is her child? I remember when I thought H and I were breaking up, the thought of having to separate Boo and her Daddy was so devastating to me. I was in tears about it every night. I can tell you care a lot about your T1. I'm sure she really appreciates having such a caring person as a client and it must really bless her to work with you.