.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
(((Hollow)))
Well glad you posted on the open forum. Let me just say you are not alone. I know exactly what you are talking about and going through. Self-hate is a part of who I am. Words like me being toxic are a part of my everyday sub-conscious vocabulary to myself, and I'm constantly thinking that who I am is disgusting to my T, and that I am polluting her mind. I keep wondering why she doesn't just leave me. If she doesn't touch me (which she doesn't) I keep thinking it is because I am disgusting. So I don't have any words of wisdom in terms of changing how you feel but trust me you are not alone. For the record I can't even get my head around liking myself let alone loving myself. I watch people jumping into photo's and taking "selfies" of themselves and then posting them on social networks, and I cannot even begin to identify with that level of comfort that they seem to have for themselves. I'm not saying I have anything against them doing that, I'm just saying for me it is beyond even thinking about.
I almost forgot to say
I think it all the time.
B2W
Well glad you posted on the open forum. Let me just say you are not alone. I know exactly what you are talking about and going through. Self-hate is a part of who I am. Words like me being toxic are a part of my everyday sub-conscious vocabulary to myself, and I'm constantly thinking that who I am is disgusting to my T, and that I am polluting her mind. I keep wondering why she doesn't just leave me. If she doesn't touch me (which she doesn't) I keep thinking it is because I am disgusting. So I don't have any words of wisdom in terms of changing how you feel but trust me you are not alone. For the record I can't even get my head around liking myself let alone loving myself. I watch people jumping into photo's and taking "selfies" of themselves and then posting them on social networks, and I cannot even begin to identify with that level of comfort that they seem to have for themselves. I'm not saying I have anything against them doing that, I'm just saying for me it is beyond even thinking about.
quote:Sometimes I feel I deserve to be violently punished
I almost forgot to say
B2W
Hi hollow,
Like B2W as well, I too feel I deserve or would like to be violently punished.
T will ask sometimes what the 'pay off' is for some of my feelings. With self-hate it's... I get to hurt me first, or on behalf of others so that I'm safer. Many Ts (and I've had experience with one who has NO ability to do this and it's... heart breaking), if they are solid, will not take this kind of stuff personally. It's about YOU - if you are afraid... it's because it served you at one point in your life (my T says this and then that thank goodness for it because I needed it to survive - just I don't need it now). If your T remains steady and consistent eventually it can be learned that you are not a burden.
That said though... I feel like the worst/most annoying client ever. My T a couple weeks ago told me how she works with her "trauma people" and it sounds so similar to how she works with me - she's been a T for 30something years... so I know that the things she does come from good experience and she's probably already worked out for herself what is a burden/what isn't. The hardest thing is separating ourselves from our T's feelings, or what we do or how we feel about ourselves as a reflection of the outside world. I'm so sorry you're feeling this way... it is very similar to things I have felt and feel about me.
I've told my T(s), and I do touch work with both of them, that I feel like I'm infecting them, or the whole room, or the whole world. They remind me it isn't possible - I'm not that powerful, that we cannot FORCE ("make") someone to feel a certain way. When children do not get what they need, they assume they are doing something wrong and take responsibility because it's mind blowing to put it anywhere else :/ not sure if that makes sense.
Like B2W as well, I too feel I deserve or would like to be violently punished.
T will ask sometimes what the 'pay off' is for some of my feelings. With self-hate it's... I get to hurt me first, or on behalf of others so that I'm safer. Many Ts (and I've had experience with one who has NO ability to do this and it's... heart breaking), if they are solid, will not take this kind of stuff personally. It's about YOU - if you are afraid... it's because it served you at one point in your life (my T says this and then that thank goodness for it because I needed it to survive - just I don't need it now). If your T remains steady and consistent eventually it can be learned that you are not a burden.
That said though... I feel like the worst/most annoying client ever. My T a couple weeks ago told me how she works with her "trauma people" and it sounds so similar to how she works with me - she's been a T for 30something years... so I know that the things she does come from good experience and she's probably already worked out for herself what is a burden/what isn't. The hardest thing is separating ourselves from our T's feelings, or what we do or how we feel about ourselves as a reflection of the outside world. I'm so sorry you're feeling this way... it is very similar to things I have felt and feel about me.
I've told my T(s), and I do touch work with both of them, that I feel like I'm infecting them, or the whole room, or the whole world. They remind me it isn't possible - I'm not that powerful, that we cannot FORCE ("make") someone to feel a certain way. When children do not get what they need, they assume they are doing something wrong and take responsibility because it's mind blowing to put it anywhere else :/ not sure if that makes sense.
Hi Hollow, while I am thankful I am not drowning in that self-hate whirlpool right now, I have been there before too. In fact, near the end of my therapy relationship with former T, she said a lot of awful things to put me there, as if I needed more help in that department. She said the devil was working through me to harm her and she was afraid to be near me. She also admitted she was afraid I would poison her. I am not making this up! But you know, now that I think back on it, I think hearing it from her lips -- my worst T insecurities seeming to come true -- it made me realize how ridiculous it sounded. When those accusations were only in my own head, for some reason it seemed easier to believe than when T said them. That sounds backwards, I know, but I share it because if your T ever did become frustrated or annoyed, or feel insulted or infected, it would really be about him and his issues and failings as a therapist, not a true reflection of you.
{{{Hollow}}}
I'm sorry things are tough right now and glad you took a leap to post in the OF.
It can be so easy to enact patterns with your Ts that have origins in our early lives. For example, I learned pretty early on that my own sadness, anger and frustration was not welcome in my family, particularly in the relationship between my mum and I. Through that and other unfortunate experiences, I learned to 'hide' emotions that I knew would wind up with a negative reaction.
My conclusion: I was too much for other people, my sadness or anger was somehow inappropriate and that must mean there was something wrong with me.
It is not really possible for a child to draw any other conclusion than "It must be me - I'm bad, wrong, toxic etc" because they need to maintain a positive view of their care-giver in order to get their needs met.
It made me really worry in adulthood about showing anger or asking for my needs to be met by my partner, and my T. I figured I would be violently rejected for having needs. The only way to deal with the feelings I did have was to turn them inward, where they turned into shame, self-hate and they did a lot of damage.
I don't know if that resonates with your experience at all?
Ts have a lot of training and supervision to examine their feelings, how they are responding to clients and how to look after themselves. It is possible to empathise with people without getting damaged by their feelings. For example, I read your post and I felt really sad that things are so difficult for you at the moment - but those feelings do not have the power to overburden or damage me. I choose to feel them and experience them. You are not making me feel a certain way.
The experience of showing some of your negative emotions to your T and having him stay steady and non-judgemental could be very healing but it does take time - as long as it takes. I've been a year with current T and there are subjects I've not gone near because I personally need to feel safer. My T knows this and sometimes I do get plagued by feeling that she thinks I'm not working hard enough - but that comes from me really and my own too-high expectations.
Talking about how the therapy itself feels, your worries, what is safe to talk about, what isn't is just as important as the other work you do together and definitely not a waste of time because it helps form a secure therapeutic alliance and that is really important.
Hope that wasn't too long - I just wanted to normalise what you're going through. You're definitely not alone. Edited to add: normalise not minimise - I recognise that this is very, very painful and just to keep returning to therapy to wrestle with it is a tough job. I do think you are being amazingly brave to reach out here and also to explore some of this stuff with your T.
SP, just want to say that retarded, stupid and useless are kind of at the bottom of the pile of words I'd use to describe you! Thoughtful, insightful, funny and clever are right at the top.
I'm sorry things are tough right now and glad you took a leap to post in the OF.
It can be so easy to enact patterns with your Ts that have origins in our early lives. For example, I learned pretty early on that my own sadness, anger and frustration was not welcome in my family, particularly in the relationship between my mum and I. Through that and other unfortunate experiences, I learned to 'hide' emotions that I knew would wind up with a negative reaction.
My conclusion: I was too much for other people, my sadness or anger was somehow inappropriate and that must mean there was something wrong with me.
It is not really possible for a child to draw any other conclusion than "It must be me - I'm bad, wrong, toxic etc" because they need to maintain a positive view of their care-giver in order to get their needs met.
It made me really worry in adulthood about showing anger or asking for my needs to be met by my partner, and my T. I figured I would be violently rejected for having needs. The only way to deal with the feelings I did have was to turn them inward, where they turned into shame, self-hate and they did a lot of damage.
I don't know if that resonates with your experience at all?
Ts have a lot of training and supervision to examine their feelings, how they are responding to clients and how to look after themselves. It is possible to empathise with people without getting damaged by their feelings. For example, I read your post and I felt really sad that things are so difficult for you at the moment - but those feelings do not have the power to overburden or damage me. I choose to feel them and experience them. You are not making me feel a certain way.
The experience of showing some of your negative emotions to your T and having him stay steady and non-judgemental could be very healing but it does take time - as long as it takes. I've been a year with current T and there are subjects I've not gone near because I personally need to feel safer. My T knows this and sometimes I do get plagued by feeling that she thinks I'm not working hard enough - but that comes from me really and my own too-high expectations.
Talking about how the therapy itself feels, your worries, what is safe to talk about, what isn't is just as important as the other work you do together and definitely not a waste of time because it helps form a secure therapeutic alliance and that is really important.
Hope that wasn't too long - I just wanted to normalise what you're going through. You're definitely not alone. Edited to add: normalise not minimise - I recognise that this is very, very painful and just to keep returning to therapy to wrestle with it is a tough job. I do think you are being amazingly brave to reach out here and also to explore some of this stuff with your T.
SP, just want to say that retarded, stupid and useless are kind of at the bottom of the pile of words I'd use to describe you! Thoughtful, insightful, funny and clever are right at the top.
Hollow,
These feelings are lies you learned from your treatment as a child. It's not true. My experience of you has been that you are a lovely, compassionate person.
(Mallard, my carpal tunnel so appreciated your response
)
(((Hollow))) - as others have shown, you are definitely not alone.
Feeling I infect others around me - check.
Feeling extreme shame and self-loathing for existing - check.
Feeling like being cared about by others is something bad/wrong I have made happen (because no one is SUPPOSED to feel that way, now I am making THEM be bad) - check.
Feeling like I deserve to be and it would provide some sort of relief to be violently punished - triple check!
I know in my T's case, because I've asked him about it multiple times, that he doesn't feel I'm that powerful, nor does he feel personally injured by my self-loathing. It sometimes is hard for him the way it is hard to see anyone you love struggling in pain and distress, but it is not injurious in any way. As others have said, these shame and self-loathing feelings are the result of the way others treated you as a child. Furthermore, the sense that it is bad to even be injured in this way, like it is an attack on your T to not be OK, speaks to how responsible you have felt for taking responsibility for and care of others. I'm so sorry you had to experience that. I wish I knew the magic way through it in an instant. But, at least, be assured you are not alone in the journey. So many of us are in it together with you!
Feeling I infect others around me - check.
Feeling extreme shame and self-loathing for existing - check.
Feeling like being cared about by others is something bad/wrong I have made happen (because no one is SUPPOSED to feel that way, now I am making THEM be bad) - check.
Feeling like I deserve to be and it would provide some sort of relief to be violently punished - triple check!
I know in my T's case, because I've asked him about it multiple times, that he doesn't feel I'm that powerful, nor does he feel personally injured by my self-loathing. It sometimes is hard for him the way it is hard to see anyone you love struggling in pain and distress, but it is not injurious in any way. As others have said, these shame and self-loathing feelings are the result of the way others treated you as a child. Furthermore, the sense that it is bad to even be injured in this way, like it is an attack on your T to not be OK, speaks to how responsible you have felt for taking responsibility for and care of others. I'm so sorry you had to experience that. I wish I knew the magic way through it in an instant. But, at least, be assured you are not alone in the journey. So many of us are in it together with you!
Hollow,
You don't have to answer me but I wonder if you were not abused physically as a child. I too struggle with feeling that I deserve to be punished in a real way over many things that happen in my life. Things I cause as well as things I have no control over. I have come to learn over time that it was taught to me. That I learned this because this is exactly what was done to me when I was a kid.
(I hope that wasn't too heavy)
Edited to add that I just saw where others pretty much said the same thing I did. I didn't read the whole thread before posting...
You don't have to answer me but I wonder if you were not abused physically as a child. I too struggle with feeling that I deserve to be punished in a real way over many things that happen in my life. Things I cause as well as things I have no control over. I have come to learn over time that it was taught to me. That I learned this because this is exactly what was done to me when I was a kid.
(I hope that wasn't too heavy)
Edited to add that I just saw where others pretty much said the same thing I did. I didn't read the whole thread before posting...
Hey Hollow,
I am glad you are getting support here.
I notice that you are always really lovely, kind and courteous in your responses to everyone in your own threads and on the board in general.
I just wanted to say that if you did ever feel like something I said didn't quite fit, or for whatever reason you felt criticised or something didn't quite make sense, I would be 100% okay with you questioning it and saying how you felt. I get that it might feel very threatening to do that and it may not ever happen - but I wanted to put it out there for if/when I fall off my perch!! Good luck for your session.
AG - high compliment indeed Glad your wrists were spared.
I am glad you are getting support here.
I notice that you are always really lovely, kind and courteous in your responses to everyone in your own threads and on the board in general.
I just wanted to say that if you did ever feel like something I said didn't quite fit, or for whatever reason you felt criticised or something didn't quite make sense, I would be 100% okay with you questioning it and saying how you felt. I get that it might feel very threatening to do that and it may not ever happen - but I wanted to put it out there for if/when I fall off my perch!!
Good luck for your session.AG - high compliment indeed
Glad your wrists were spared.