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Hi echo
I read your thread about your experience with revealing you feelings during the session and it kind of worried me.
I didn't experience anything like that, but I have no idea what kind of therapy I am in. Psychodynamic? I don't know.
My therapist did not even attempt to discuss his own feelings. I see now from couple of session's perspective that he seemed to be expecting transference. Now that I did my tiny research on transference it seems to me that the situation that you were in doesn't quite look like what I read. I'm sorry I don't want to hurt your feelings but I just think that he did not do the right thing.
My T did not quite wait for me to tell hw I feel about him, he was sort of fishing for it. And eventually when I said that I cared about him and looked at him shocked with what I've just said he didn't loose his 'cool', he wasn't excited or satisfied. He was very natural and talked to me that it is alright, it is a feeling and there is nothing wrong with feeling things, having emotions towards people. That kind of thing.
I just see a huge difference between my experience and yours. I did end up with some mess and confusion. I was wandering about his feelings. Anyway, he seems to me to be trained and prepared for transference. I think my therapy is just about to begin now.
quote:
Please, please, please tell me that this is how therapy is meant to be done and that this is how you all go about the business of getting better? I do not want to even consider the other possibility... Big Grin


Everyone's therapy is unique as the person doing it... whatever works is the "right way" to do it I think.
Echo... this is a great thread. I first brought up transference a year ago with my T. He got very defensive and I would say almost scared of my feelings for him. And I didn't even specify exactly what they were. Just that I had a great affection for him and that our relationship meant a lot to me. I think he was out of his depth at the time and he actually said to me that he does not have much experience with transference. We hit a few bumpy patches but he never threatened to terminate me nor did he make my feelings about him. I told him that i needed him to be my T more than anything else and I was focused on the therapy and would not allow the transference to cloud things.

Then just this week I brought up the subject again in a round about way. I told him that some things I've been reading on various board about how badly Ts and Ps handle transference was triggering me to some extent and I was worried how close he really came to terminating me. He handled things MUCH better this time and was calm and non-defensive. I think this could be because he knows me much better by now. When I mentioned how badly some Ts handle this he looked at me and said... they were CBT's right? And... yes... most of them were. He said there are 'some' CBT therapists who will delve deeper into things are are more knowledgeable about attachment and transference but most of them are not and don't work in that way. My T is "eclectic" which is mostly psycho-dynamic, interpersonal and a bit of behavioral therapy.

At the end of my last session I told him that the psych schools are failing us in that they really don't teach transfernece and how it should be handled. They don't really focus on it enough and how, if handled incorrectly, it can cause so much damage to patients. We ran out of time and didn't finish but we will discuss this again.

In the meantime I'm really very interested in hearing the thoughts and opinions out there regarding this topic.

TN
Echo, thank you for starting this thread. You are right, I think this is very much needed.

TN, thank you for bringing this issue up with your T and for sharing his response with us. Your experience is a great example of how a T can learn from the therapeutic relationship too.

My ex-T is CBT, but when transference first came up, he told me he had helped others through it before, so I didn't think there would be a problem. I wish now I would have asked him exactly how he helped them through it so that I would have known better what to expect. The two times I was trusting enough and ready to get "brutally honest" (his words), he shut me down both times. The first time he got defensive and kept taking over the conversation, even though we had started out with him strongly encouraging me to talk, and the second time was our last session, where he kept asking me what are we going to "do" about my being distracted by his wearing a white shirt. When I said I wanted to talk it through to help me understand what it was really about, so it would not be such a distraction, he said talking about it could possibly make it worse, and I didn't know what to say to that.

Between the first and second time I tried to talk about it, he came up with an idea after talking to his review team. He said we needed to make sure transference was a vehicle to my therapy goals, and not an obstacle. If it became an obstacle, he would transfer me. Together we defined an obstacle as me working too much on my relationship with my T, at the expense of working on my relationship with my husband.

Interestingly, he changed the analogy right before everything fell apart. The session before our last one, he said he had a new analogy about transference that he wanted to show me. He drew a Battleship board with some of the battleships pointing toward my "goals" and some of them going side-to-side. He said what he wanted to do is get them all pointing toward my goals. What is also cool is that I had just thought of a Battleship analogy that week too, because some of his comments in session felt like he was trying to find my battleships. So our analogies dovetailed. I liked this analogy MUCH better than obstacle/vehicle, and I think it was much more in line with how transference is really supposed to be handled. So we were learning together, and I think he really was trying to handle this right.

But then I sent that note where I asked him not to wear the white shirt, where I said my distraction about his shirt was becoming an obstacle and that I wanted to talk about it. He said he couldn't change what he wore, which I understood completely, but he didn't know how to help me talk about it to understand it. And I didn't know either. So that was that.

I still don't see how my attraction to his shirt met our definition of obstacle. But I do think it meets the definition of the only obstacle I've read about in the literature on transference: where the T, for whatever reason, is not able to help the patient understand their attraction clinically. I think he was simply scared that he wouldn't be able to handle it, or that he might get in trouble with his review team. I just wish he would have seen and admitted that so I wouldn't still feel like this is my fault somehow. I know that it's not, but I still feel like it is.

The website where I first read about transference being useful in therapy has a great Q&A section on Termination (as well as Transference and Psychotherapy). Another thing I learned on this site is that if a T can't help their patient through transference, the patient can find a therapist who knows how to do this and continue the therapy. And that is what I'm going to do. There's a Q&A that addresses this situation very well, and it's very comforting to me right now. I've included the link here:

http://www.guidetopsychology.c...stions/q_attract.htm

Another point this psychologist makes in his answer is that the trauma of being terminated like this actually brings up the very issues that trauma patients need to look at anyway. I know that sounds harsh, and maybe isn't the best-case scenario. But the way things happened with my T, it really does bring up the childhood stuff I need to talk about: The unpredictability of the termination, just when it was starting to feel safe, reminds me of the cruelty and unpredictability of my mother. The way my ex-T kind of "threw me under the bus" reminds me of how my dad would discredit me when I would try to bring in outside help for us kids. So, this really got me ready to talk to my new T. And I can still learn what I need to learn. It doesn't depend on my ex-T, in fact, his suitability for recreating the trauma actually makes him unsuitable for helping me through it. So there is "therapy gold" to be had here, and I'm going to get it one way or the other. Smiler

CBTs focus on feel-think-do, and I remember my ex-T going over this with me. But throughout the therapy, my T was very focused on "think" and "do". He seemed to ignore the "feel" part entirely, or would get uncomfortable if I seemed to express too much feeling. He seemed to be afraid of feelings, or exasperated by them. So maybe it is better that I'm going to see another T to process the feelings. I really need a safe place to do that, and I certainly can't if my T is not creating that for me.

One final thing I am wondering from my experience is, How much of my ex-T's fear was fed by the culture at the clinic? He really did seem willing to learn how to help me through this, but I wonder how much pressure he was getting from his review team not to try it. I guess this goes back to what TN was saying, about how T's in training are not getting the support they need to know how to handle this.

Okay, now I've written a book. But my ex-T has been on my mind a lot lately, again...I wish so much there was some way to get better closure, but I think I'll just have to accept it the way it happened and keep moving on. I'm really looking forward to my next appointment with my new T tomorrow morning.

Thanks again, Echo, for starting this thread, and thanks everyone for contributing to it.

SG
SG... I'm really excited about your appt with your new T tomorrow. Please let us know how it goes. Monday is "my" day too... and I have an afternoon session which I am very much looking forward to as well as being nervous about. I seem to have slammed into some grief this weekend that I'm struggling with. It comes and goes and I think I need to talk to T about it.

I just wanted to comment about the "feel" part of your description of your T. This is the part my T has never shied away from. I am the one who is always afraid that MY emotions will drown both of us and he has been steadfast in that whatever I feel or whatever emotions I am experiencing he can handle and I should not worry about him. He has sat still and listened to my childhood traumas and although he has cried along with me I have never felt that he was not able to handle it. He has remained my stronger wiser other which is something I never had growing up. So.. too with the transference. We have both grown together in this therapy and lately I am seeing how far he has come on this road with me and how he has never stopped learning and working on how best to take care of me. So even though he was originally scared and pretty clueless about transference he has been willing to hear my feelings and to grow along with me. I think that makes a real difference.

In the case of your old T I think he was greatly influenced by his review team and also he lacked confidence in himself and was afraid of confronting feelings not realizing that they were really NOT about him but about things you needed to work out in therapy. I'm so sorry things turned out like this for you but you have handled it so gracefully and I think, aside from all the horrible pain, it has become a real learning vehicle for you.

TN
SG I am so grateful that you share your story, by sharing the emotions that you are feeling you help me to feel not so alone. I am trying to end with my T and to me it is like giving up a drug. I just want to keep going back for more. I am not sure that I can do this even though I know it is what is best for me. I keep losing sight of the reasons I need to end and get caught up in the addiction.

TN that sounds so nice, to be in a therapeutic relationship that is so safe. Thank you also for sharing because it is good for me to see what therapy should be.
Hi Echo,

After recently emailing my T asking for an "extra" appointment following finishing my therapy with him due to deferring I can totally see where you're coming from.

The email was very apologetic and enclosed a disclaimer saying that it was ok if he didn't want to meet up again or had other committments. Once he sent the reply saying he would meet up I though "oh crap, what have I got myself into".

There was a grin on his face when I went into his room. I told him "and you thought you could get rid of me easily" jokingly.And then he asked what I wanted to sort out, clarified that this would only be a one off session. That he was sorry that he couldn't continue with me. I still find that hard to believe but that's me all over.

Anyways, if you've been keeping up on some of the stuff I've written on here, I had a big load of transference feelings towards him. I told him that it was an issue that i had mentioned and that he had referred to it once or twice as dependency but left it at that. I felt like he was shrugging it off. He saw that I was trying to get something out but I just couldn't tell him the depth of my feelings, I just couldn't. I still kind of regret it. But I think he knew, he said "they're too difficult to talk about aren't they?" Anyways we sorted out why we hadn't discussed it, a mixture of not wanting to open a can of worms since I was leaving and that he was only a college T and that transference was more a long term thing. He also didn't realise it was such and issue and was very clear about apologising to me if he had missed it. Which was nice.

But like you, I felt it important to say I hoped he didn't think I was a stalker. He gave a wonderful response: he said he didn't think I was but even if I was we would still have to talk about it! Nothing taboo, nothing to deny, just honesty. What a relief. So maybe I didn't get to the bottom of everything but I sorted a few things out that I didn't want to be speculating about. Part of me is happy about it too since I think my T learned from it and that's not me being egotistical but he seemed genuinely surprised and I got the feeling that he would look out for it more in future. You'd think he's know, he is gorgeous and lovey after all!

Typical as well that on the last day he looked particularly handsome, there was something different about his hair that I stared at for what seemed like a few minutes, hope he didn't notice.

All I can say to you is yes, you will be nervous, well I always was. But most of the bad things you imagine happening are just you worrying and trying to cover every base. Don't. Just relax and focus on what you need to get done. I found that when my day came I had certain things I wanted to sort and that was it. Yeah I spent a bit of time taking my T in as I knew it would be our last session but he was most accommodating and I hope yours is too.

Best of luck echo x
Mrs. P
Hi Echo,

Good job in facing this. I loved that it was anticlimactic and that he wasn't as cute as you remembered. You sound very centered, like you know exactly who you are and where you want to go in the therapy. It's a strong place to be and I'm happy for you!

I would like to "echo" (please don't hit me) HB and Halo's request for the "five steps". I would also like to know what is meant by "defusion". And don't worry about "Spock brain". Did you know Google has a language tool for translating Klingon? Big Grin

Peace,
SG
quote:
Originally posted by echo:
Here are the Stages of Acceptance:
1. Aversion - resistance, avoidance, rumination
2. Curiousity - turning toward discomfort with interest
3. Tolerance - safely enduring
4. Allowing - letting feelings come and go
5. Friendship - embracing, seeing hidden value

This is from a book by Christopher Germer called The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion: Freeing Yourself from Destructive Thoughts and Emotions. It's all very buddhist and whatnot, which is why my Spock brain has been resisting this approach. Wink I'm enjoying trying something new, though! I can't see myself turning into one of those perpetually smiling yoga zombie housewives, but a little mindfulness certainly can't hurt. Smiler

Defusion means learning to step back or detach from unhelpful thoughts and worries and memories: instead of getting caught up in your thoughts, or pushed around by them, or struggling to get rid of them, you learn how to let them come and go – as if they were just cars driving past outside your house (or internet pop-up ads that you close without clicking to open Wink ).

quote:
Good job in facing this. I loved that it was anticlimactic and that he wasn't as cute as you remembered. You sound very centered, like you know exactly who you are and where you want to go in the therapy. It's a strong place to be and I'm happy for you!


Oh, I don't know about this. He may not be as cute as I imagined, but I'd still sleep with him in a heartbeat. Razzer (bad, bad, Echo)

Thank you everyone for your support!! Big Grin


Hi Echo(and everyone else Smiler)

I've been avoiding this topic for a while because it was so firmly implanted in my thoughts, I couldn't bare to discuss it in more detail.

I think my T was CBT, at least that's the impression I got from his work with me, nothing was explicitly said or if it was it was too long ago Wink

I think I fell for my T quite early on. I wasn't surprised, it happens often to me with men who appear kind or caring-I always develop feelings or attraction based on that. However, after having a three month break from him I thought I was ok. I agonised over the decision of going back to him. I spoke to my female T at the time about it. She said there should be know problem, to be honest with him and let him know about my feelings.

However, once I returned back to him my feelings increased exponentially and became very erotic and almost all consuming. I did bring up the transference and my T said that it was good, that I had figured out the "dependency" on my own. And him referring to it as that rather than transference really got to me. Like it was without foundation. And he probably didn't mean it that way, he did refer to transference too but he also said that it is "hard to face our own neediness sometimes". After that day I felt like some illusion of mine had been shattered, like I had broken up with a long term boyfriend. I was hurting so badly. And after that I had difficulties with trust too. While I understood he left me figure it out on my own to make things easier for me, it still felt like he had kept some info from me, that he was tricking me into getting better.

So from then on to the end of my therapy I struggled with my feelings for him along with my own therapy. And for those of you who have read some of my posts you'll know that I asked for an extra session after the "final" one because I knew I needed to touch on the issue again. I did ask him, in a roundabout way, why he didn't work through the transference or focus on it after it was brought up. And I was happy with his explanation. However, I feel bad I didn't bring up how deeply I felt for him and what kind of feelings I had. I need to work on this with my new T to understand it. In the meantime I'm just hurting and missing him very badly.

In all honesty I think my T handled my transference well in that he kept the boundaries very secure. Yes he rang me a few times on my break with him until I got a new T but other than that there were no mixed messages. However, I would've liked if he had addressed the issue a lot more directly and earlier. His not dealing with it made me feel more embarrassed and like it was all in my head. I also wondered if he had counter transference feelings and if I pushed the issue that it would end badly.

And Echo-my T was more handsome than ever on my last day, annoyed me so much :x

Mrs. P

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