BB
Thank you for your honesty and explanations - it seemed quite a logical sequence to me

quote:

a long and confusing (for me) story?

maybe we understand and think a little like you because we've all been similarly muddled for various reasons
For me, what seems to shine through is the sense of everything slowly falling into place over time. That your T has learnt to meet your needs by maybe changing the way he thinks and interacts with you; that he has realised that there is perhaps a bit of you that he cannot meet completely, but has wisely suggested a spiritual director to meet that need. And it seems to work for all of you. The spiritual director sound an amazing guy too...

quote:

after meeting with this priest for 3 times, I learned so much and can honestly say that I now want to love myself, I see myself in a different light, with compassion-

BB, that's so wonderful to hear, That must feel good and such an important step towards healing. We have such a warped sense of our own failings I know, and his talk of

quote:

a very believable but tangled up lie about myself in my mind for many long years and kept me so down.

resonated with me. We know that a lot of what we feel so negatively about ourselves is a lie, but it feels so entrenched and tangled doesn't it? But now you want to learn to love yourself and dispel the lies that don't deserve maybe to be there. So no wonder you are(allbeit cautiously) feeling brighter and stronger, you are being supported and understood.

It's ok to let yourself feel cared for by him, by him caring he will allow you to gain confidence to carry on with all that difficult work of staying with emotions and not pushing them away. (starfish buries her head in the sand at the mere thought of staying with any difficult emotion ) So it IS imperative, I agree, that you trust him and it feels like very slowly you are.

quote:

Will I ever "grow up" or am I stuck being like this?

I don't think we stay stuck for long if we want to change. But just sometimes the process seems to take a heck of a lot longer than we want it too. Perhaps enjoy being where you are, feeling in a good place for now, and trusting the process and your T and SD to carry you on when you need to...

starfish

Oh no, BB, I was just coming by to respond to this very post!! Guess I pondered it too long....

I was so pleased and excited to read about your new SD and the difference he's making for you. These authority figures, parental figures, I need them too. It's only in the last few years that I've let myself really draw close to them.

It is still a roller coaster but has eased somewhat for me - I'm better these days at accepting my need, the power of it, at identifying and communicating the 'want' part of the need (I mean, the part of the need that another person can actually fulfill, as distinct from the gaping black hole), and at accepting and feeling the love that comes to me.

These relationships are an exquisite part of my life, and although I'm not religious they feel very spiritual. I hope to never be without them. I still get thrown on a weekly basis, go through these 'cycles' of feeling treasured and held and valuable, and cold/worthless/abandoned/unable to function. Less like a cycle and more like a fluorescent light flickering on and off. I can kinda contain those feelings and function around them. But I don't think I will ever not need those kinds of people in my life.

Hmm, now I don't know how relevant what I'm saying is to what you originally wrote about, but I remember you wrote you couldn't give up on your T. Totally understand that. Take care.

J

Oh BB, I'm so sorry - please hang in there, and yes, get that finger away from the delete button! You are so valuable here, we need your posts. Remember how much you learn from other people here, when they write about their highs and their lows too? When they struggle and when they offer their support? That is you for us. There's so much in your story I relate to, I'd hate to see that story disappearing!

I've been slow to respond to a couple of your posts lately - this one and the one about being in the car while moving (hope that is still up there) - but they have really struck me, it's just I haven't quite had words for what I wanted to say. I know it's hard, but please try to imagine that your words are valuable for others, because it's true.

(((((((((BB))))))))))

quote:

I just get in this place where I become aware of what I need help with and it is very intense awareness...but then if I start to think about it too much and prioritize it or write it all down so that I can be organized about the session and get what I need from it...it's almost like it disappears! It is weird and very frustrating. Does anyone reading have any idea what this is? Is it some psychological problem, developmental problem, or a defense mechanism? I always feel like if something, some problem or whatever can have a name and a definition put on it, then I will be able to understand it, otherwise I'm in no-man's land.
BB

Wow. I get this so much. While I can very clearly see that you are not to blame for this, and that it is likely some kind of automatic coping/defense mechanism or response, I find I blame myself too, as this happens to me constantly. I too assume I am too "dumb as a post" to decipher and/or articulate my thoughts/feelings.

I have thought in the past it might be a combination of minimizing (like nothing feels real enough or significant enough) and also so often at least for me the clarity happens in a feeling that does not necessarily come with words.

The only thing I have found that sometimes helps is to make sure I try to write everything I can get out in as much detail as I can - even pictures that come to mind - in the moment I am feeling it. Sadly even then though, I go back and can't figure it out much of the time. I hear your frustration!

*****sigh*****

Looking forward to reading others' responses.

Hello there Blackbird

I’m sorry you deleted your post but I can understand how it might have made you feel having it out there.

I SO get what you are talking about when you say

quote:

I just get in this place where I become aware of what I need help with and it is very intense awareness...but then if I start to think about it too much and prioritize it or write it all down so that I can be organized about the session and get what I need from it...it's almost like it disappears!

I get this all the time - a really clear intense intuitive understanding of what’s going on in me - but the minute I start to put it into words and attempt to explain it (even to myself) it literally vanishes. I’m left with a handful of words that I remember having understood, but the actual understanding has disappeared. Extremely frustrating! Sometimes I can hold onto the understanding for a few days and that makes it even more frustrating (and makes me feel utterly hopeless) when eventually it does disappear and I’m left with the sense of nothing changing and no idea of where to go next. Especially if I’ve talked about it to T and he assumes I’ve still got the understanding.

I also so much relate to the very terrifying sense of its all being ‘something wrong’ without being able to pinpoint or know what that thing wrong is. I always hope therapists can get to understand it and then tell ME what the ‘problem’ is and give me a way to fix it

And I very much understand the feeling of not wanting to waste an expensive hour, especially when you have so long to wait between sessions - so the pressure to get stuff out there and get some sort of recognizable ‘result’ is really on.

Also that in the end all blame and responsibility ends up back on my head - I relate to that too! Being unable to sort stuff out my default setting is ‘it’s all my bloody fault, AS USUAL’. That’s what I’m addressing all the time - because somewhere inside me I just know that NO it is NOT my fault, everything cannot always be my fault - some kind of error in there that I keep looking for…

quote:

Now I just want to go with the feelings of the moment, maybe that will help me open up

Snap! I just wrote a thread about exactly that. It’s what I started therapy to do, and for some reason have wittered away the last seven months doing anything but. The trouble is, getting in touch with feelings in the moment seems to me to open up pathways that allow ALL feelings lurking away back there to emerge and that’s where I use my rationalizing to keep them under control and oh great they then decide to go back into their box, a bit like, huh well if you don’t want us around we’ll go away and hide, sod you. And I’m left feeling neutral and disconnected and wondering what the hell is going on.

Hm rereading that I see I haven’t come up with anything remotely useful to you, just wanted you to know I share so many of the same feelings and thoughts and worries you talk about.

But I also think you’re doing ok BB - it sounds like your P is becoming more attuned to you and that he is going to be able to help you. Just hang in there and try not to let it all spin you out in between sessions (that’s rich coming from me, who has to pick over every nuance of every word in order to make sense of everything, unsuccessfully I might add!)

Hi BB,

Middle of the night here so I won't write long. I was just really struck reading this by how much it sounds like that little girl stuck in the car without enough room or care - "crushed", "stuck", "small", "dependent", "under there", and even "left behind", the other danger in that awful situation.

I hope it's not too presumptuous or painful for me to suggest this connection. If it is a connection for you maybe that could be useful to think about and explore.

I love what you say about the blue popsicle stick, and think your insight there - how powerful it is to have the needs actually heard and accepted - is a huge one. I hope that you can move towards giving yourself that listening and acceptance and *room*.

J

((((BB)))) I'm so sorry you are in such pain. Your post just breaks my heart. You need to know that the feeling of not being there or feeling invisible to your parents/caregivers is neglect and that kind of neglect can be traumatizing for a young child. If your parents treated you like you were not there then there was no opportunity for you to develop a healthy attachment to them. Have you read anything on attachment theory? I recommend David Wallin's book but others have also written on attachment and how it affects us throughout our lives.

If as a child you were ignored then you were never taught things and that you could do and conquer life's obstacles. This is much easier to learn as a child when you are not even aware of learning these things. Affect regulation is another biggie that we are not given a chance to develop when we grow up in abusive homes. And make no mistake... neglect is a form of abuse!

When we are raised in healthy homes we do encounter obstacles but they are SURMOUNTABLE obstacles that help us to develop our sense of self and of what we can handle on our own. We should also have our attachment figure there cheering us on and helping us develop skills. Unfortunately, when you grow up in an abusive home you are given UNSURMOUNTABLE obstacles and you are doomed to fail handling them over and over and so we learn that it is hopeless to try. This is called learned hopelessness and it follows us into adulthood.

What you have found in your therapist is someone who believes in you and who encourages you and is helping you to develop in a new and healthy way. You are being "heard" and your needs are being met, you have someone to confide in when things get scary or feel out of control... so it is NO surprise that you feel such intense feelings for your P. You have finally found that older, stronger, wiser other to be there for you so that you can now go out slowly and venture into the world but you still have that safe place to return to when things feel scary. And please don't compare yourself to others... just go at your own pace. Yes, things are harder for us with trauma backgrounds than for others who have grown up in safe healthy environments but that does not mean we cannot grow and heal with time and effort and a good T/P. I think that you have the tools to do this but it will get bumpay along the way. That's why you need to come here and post without worrying how long your posts are or how often you post. You will find support here to give you strength to keep going with your therapy. The most important thing is to do your best to be as open and honest with your P as possible so he will come to know you and then be better able to help you in the ways that you need.

Hang in there.

TN

BB... no thanks necessary. You contribute a lot to this board with your thoughts and insights so why wouldn't I respond to you. The reason you feel that I understand this is because I live it every day. I think these types of feelings that are almost pre-verbal can only really be understood by another person who has experienced trauma. But we can try to communicate how we feel to our Ts/Ps and if they are attuned to us they will eventually come to understand enough of it to help us.

I really do have faith that you will get past this.

TN

BB the book is Attachment in Psychotherapy by David Wallin. It's on Amazon. Another book that I'm reading but not finished with is called Parenting from the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel and Mary Hartzell.

TN

BB

Just a few thoughts on your post. I am sorry that you feel so confused at the moment and are blaming yourself for how you feel. That's a really hard place to be, you blame yourself and then you feel worse and so you blame yourself more and more because it must be true. But it's not your fault that you feel confused and you have done nothing wrong

quote:

I don't deserve this help, I've done something wrong, I am overly-dependent

and you desrve all this help, especially so when times are hard. Just the same as your little child deserved all the help and love he needed to help with his muscle development when things were tough for him. I really don't for one minute think that

quote:

my P cares about me less because I cannot yet crawl, and that really hurts

but it's easy to think that our frustrations with ourselves will be felt and reciprocated by others, that others wil see us as we see ourselves. He won't BB, because he will see the genuine, gentle person that you are, that needs a little more time and support from him. When I feel I am making painfully slow progress I ask my T if I am difficult. She always says the same 'the problem is difficult, you are not difficult at all.'

And as for the books, keep reading. Stop if something is unhelpful and makes you feel in any way bad about yourself. If something is helpful, hang on to it and read it over and over again. My T has recommended books to me before, but mostly I find them for myself. Sometimes we differ on what is helpful or not!
So trust yourself and your instincts BB.

starfish

Oh Blackbird I am feeling your pain in every word that you’ve written. And it could be almost me writing what you’ve written so much of it is exactly the state I’m in and things that I struggle with (and have done so for decades.)

I’m exactly like you describe when it comes to reading (or taking in any info for that matter) it’s like whatever I sponge up becomes fixed in my head as true and real and I have big problems when conflicting ideas enter my head. I also struggle BIG TIME with knowing what I actually think and believe - most of what I think I know is actually stuff that’s come in from outside, stuff I’ve read or heard or been told or ‘understood’ without its actually being based on my own experience. To be honest I haven’t a clue what I really think and feel, what I really believe and know to be true. Actually I have no truth at all, I don’t have that inner certainty that everyone else seems to have. It takes very little for something or someone to challenge what I think I know to be true. I always and I mean ALWAYS doubt my own perceptions and that’s a pretty hellish way to live. All of my work on myself, and the reason I’ve gone back into therapy is so I can find my own truth, finally. So I can have that sense of inner certainty that won’t constantly get blown out of the water by a passing comment or a new piece of information. And that certainty is based squarely on being able to rely on my emotional perceptions. Work in progress definitely.

I could go on far too long outlining all the bits in your posts that I also feel and think and experience - but the one thing that really strikes home with me and that maybe just maybe I can be supportive about is where you say

quote:

I think my P thinks I do not need his help because I can think, make associations, have some kind of a conscience, etc. He is always making reference to my intellect, that it is "brilliant" and so on, which I honestly do not understand- why he says stuff like that all the time. I don't think he fully understands how confused I get about talking to him, or how much I need him to be willing to help me to "stand up." (or crawl as the case may be.) That is how I experience it anyway. But the attachment is a powerful feeling, and perhaps, all of this is excuse making on my part in order to get "some goodies" from him.

You could almost have my judge sitting in your head, that’s the sort of stuff I have going on in my head all the time - ESPECIALLY where you are doubting yourself and seeing it as somehow wrong to want to get ‘goodies’ from him.

That’s the bit I want to pin down. It’s exactly the moral set up I labour under (and I bet most of us do too to some degree) that somehow getting for me is wrong, bad, incorrect - that the whole point of life (and therapy and the universe etc) is to somehow ‘grow out’ of such a ‘childish’ neediness. As if wanting to be seen as good, wanting to be smiled at and praised and encouraged and being reflected as a worthwhile loveable likeable wantable person is a big bad no-no, something to be changed, improved, worked on, ITALICS gotten rid of ITALICS and it’s taken me years to get to the point now where I am finally telling myself - but I want that and by god I’m going to get it somehow or another! I’ve spent years believing I wasn’t supposed to want anything like that from anyone else that I was supposed to somehow miraculously develop self love and self liking all by myself in the vacuum of my mind and now I finally realize it’s impossible without getting it first from out there, from other people.

And these last few sessions with my T I’ve gotten up the courage to be point blank about it - actually openly told him that that is what I want from him - to tell me, to show me, to prove to me, to reflect me - as GOOD, as having good qualities, as being likeable and loveable . (Not wanting HIM to like and love me, but for him to show me how I AM likeable and loveable - there’s a big difference.)

Never mind that I don’t believe it anyway, I actually believe I’m unlikeable unlovable unwantable - but in this my rational intellectualizing has actually helped me because rationally I know that it’s not possible for one person to be so totally bad and worthless as I believe myself to be (and believe that everyone else thinks I am too) - so intellectually I am choosing to have faith that my T actually does see something good about me and am using that faith to push to get some fundamental needs of mine met.

Phew sorry I’ve run off at the mouth again but the point of all that verbiage is to say in big capital letters that there is NOTHING wrong with getting ‘goodies’ - it’s not some childish trick or manipulation for something that you don’t deserve - it’s exactly what you need and want and that’s what a therapist CAN give you - openly. It’s ok to want to get for you, in fact it’s more than ok, it’s right, it’s correct, it’s what life is all about!

I think you’re probably right in one thing, that your P possibly doesn’t understand yet as well as he could just how much you do need from him - and I’m going to suggest that you think about actually telling him much more openly and clearly the kinds of things you’ve written about in this last post. When I finally laid it out for my T, he still didn’t get it immediately. It’s taken a few sessions of me repeating and repeating and clarifying and refining the nature of exactly what I want from him (and even HOW I want him to give it) for him to get a better sense of my need. (Never mind that he actually is quite happy to sit there telling me how wonderful I am - I can’t take it in lol, something to do with it’s being because I’ve asked for it - but he also knows that for me to believe anything good about me it’s got to sort of slip in obliquely when I’m not looking.) I really wish you could do something similar - it’s made me feel so much more accepting of my wanting goodies for me, and that’s a first step in being able to actually GET.

Blackbird I so hope you are ok, you sound as if you’re spiralling a bit out of control - please know that I really get how it’s all so confusing and frightening and you don’t have to sit with it all by yourself. Big hugs to you.

quote:

No, It means a lot to me that you would even remember that other post, Jones. I felt really small leaving that there, in the face of what you had endured...why I deleted it. That whole scenario was very small in the scheme of things Jones. But I think you make an interesting point. I did feel crushed and small and stuck under there as you say. I wonder what kind of person may have such strong intense reaction to such a situation that to this day I am phobic of being buried alive, I can feel intensely what it would be like, I feel I hav lived it...that is strange. Honestly it is like I have been buried alive, I "remember" it. I must think about this. Maybe take to P, if I can be brave ever. Thank you Jones.

BB, I'm sad that you felt that way about your post. It resonates a lot because that is how it felt for me putting my thumb incident up there - like, how can this have been traumatic? I almost felt like I was insulting people who went through harder things by writing it.

More and more I'm throwing that measuring stick away. I am allowed to make sense of my own experiences in relation to my own life, my pain, my needs and my goals. AND SO ARE YOU!!!!

I want to say two things. 1) What you went through wasn't 'small' at all. It would have been very frightening for a kid. I can imagine that you were actually scared for your physical safety, scared of literally being crushed, and terrified of being left behind as well. It's a double bind of the kind I experienced too - hurt myself or risk something worse. And on top of that, you got a very strong signal from your dad that your experience (which felt really overwhelming to you) didn't matter. That is absolutely isolating.
2) The incident counts in itself, but I believe a big part of why these things affect us is that they represent the emotional context we are living in. So in this sense, it actually doesn't matter how 'big' or 'small' the incident was. A toe-stubbing could be a genuinely traumatic experience for a kid who was not receiving the care, attention and parenting that kid needed. Because being deprived of those things deprives children of their resilience, their ability to come to terms with what happens to them, to feel ok, secure, loved, lovable, peaceful and safe.
3) Ok, three things! Sometimes I think these incidents have symbolic resonance. So if for you a lot of your emotional experience was of being crushed or buried by the expectations of others, to have a physical experience of that would have been extremely powerful and frightening.

I think your car incident was really, really significant to you. It's painful in itself, AND it represents a lot of what you were not getting that you needed.

So yes, I remember it. And I hope you do too, and that you understand that that little girl needed and deserved a lot more acknowledgement, care, thought and looking after than she was getting.

quote:

He has a way of shrugging his shoulders and spreading his hands and saying in so many words "so what?" It leaves me feeling really really bad to the point I don't really want to talk to him about stuff anymore. I start to blank out everything he says, when it feels so strongly that he doesn't care about little me and my little problems. I'm not sure what he is doing that makes me feel this way.

Also BB, this troubles me. Your P shrugs off your problems and says "so what"? That's terrible! I know you are not in any position where you want to move away from him, so I'm not going in that direction by saying this. BUT - don't you feel just a teeny tiny flicker of anger about this? Maybe it's worth fanning that little spark?

I know my relationship with my T got a lot stronger as I learned to spit it out when I felt mad. I'm still learning this, but just knowing I can do it makes the relationship feel so much more REAL and authentic. Like I can be my real self, and somehow I get to see more of the real her, too - because she can say 'ok, sorry, you know I'm a bit dense sometimes' or 'ok, that was a bad way to word it, I really meant something like X'. I thought that showing her my critical/angry/alienated feelings would diminish her and make her unable to help me, but the opposite has happened. Of course, to get there you need to get to a place where you FEEL angry that this guy is reacting to you in this way....

ALSO, I love that you now have your SD as a point of comparison. He is proof that not all therapeutic-type relationships need to be this way for you. He is proof that you are not 100% the source of your bad feeling - it is about something that is going on between the two of you (so don't just try to fix it in your head!!).

Ok, my rambling is done for now!

Take care, BB.

(((((((((((BB)))))))))))

BB, I'm so sorry to see you feeling so hurt and lost. I wish I knew the right thing to say to help you get through this pain, because I can hear how acute it is. You need support and care and acknowledgement, I can hear that.

I'm sorry if my comments about anger added to your sense of confusion and pressure. Ultimately I think what's most important is that you have some room to feel the things you are feeling now.

Last session I was talking to my t about the couples therapy we have begun. She asked me how I felt about something with my husband, and why I hadn't said that in the couple session. I said something similar to what you are saying here - that I already knew I was wrong in my perception and feeling. But she encouraged me to bring it in anyway, to own it and feel it so we could work with it together, instead of me having to try to fix it myself in my head. I tried it in the couples session this week and it worked really well - it was just a passing thing in the conversation, but it was a relief to say it.

Part of me is always separate from what I feel, second guessing it, questioning it, and (when I'm feeling bad) undermining it. I hear that in your post too. But that part of you that feels mistrustful and tricked and manipulated needs some space too. It may be that these feelings come from the past, rather than the present situation. That doesn't make the feelings wrong. They are still valid and part of your experience. If they come from the past that makes them rich for therapeutic work, and your P may be able to help you do that work of making the connections.

I understand the bind, though - how difficult it is to move towards that with someone when you DO feel tricked and manipulated, and you are not even sure they want to help you.

You WILL get through this, BB. You have made good, solid progress lately with this P, and that was real. You will get there again - you will get through this setback, I believe. Draw on us, draw on your SD. You will make it.

Thank you for asking how I am - I am actually doing really well right now, therapeutically speaking, though really busy otherwise. I will post an update when something interesting happens!

Take care.
J

((((((((BB))))))))

I am so sorry that you are hurting so much, Blackbird.

quote:

Originally posted by Jones:
But that part of you that feels mistrustful and tricked and manipulated needs some space too. It may be that these feelings come from the past, rather than the present situation. That doesn't make the feelings wrong. They are still valid and part of your experience. If they come from the past that makes them rich for therapeutic work, and your P may be able to help you do that work of making the connections.

I think this is so true. I struggle so much with this myself, but I think it is a very valuable insight, and I hope that somehow you can draw from it, BB. In my opinion, confusion is one of THE most frustrating things to feel in the course of therapy, because I know that in my case, the confusion hits the day after a session and lasts throughout the whole next week. And then by the time I get into another session, I'm so beyond being frustrated that I've forcefully pushed myself to let it go for the time being, because it's intolerable to feel that way all the time.

quote:

Also, if I feel manipulated into feeling an emotion, it will not come. I figured out pretty early on that he was trying to "let" me cry as he would put it, by showing real sympathy for my pain. But as soon as I figured that out, it just felt like a trick, and his compassion has never felt real to me since.

I am so sorry that you are struggling with this, BB. It is impossibly difficult to open up to someone if you're not convinced that they are genuine, and I hear you when you say that it makes all of this that much more confusing. When it seems like compassion is a trick, I think that it makes it that much harder to feel and express emotion and KNOW that it's real, that it's your emotion, and that you are right in wanting and needing to express it. I've had trouble with this in that I feel as if I'm being manipulated into feeling something if it seems like the other person isn't genuine. It's almost as if...if I realize that they aren't being real with me, then I must think that their fake feelings are being transferred to me, and I am unconsciously fueling a fake interaction.

I completely identify with both you and Jones when you talk about not only being separate from what you feel, but also constantly second-guessing and questioning it. I don't know how much it can help, since I am still trying to figure this sort of thing out myself, but sometimes I think that struggling so much with these kinds of feelings, wondering whether therapy (or everything) is worth it is the excruciating part of the ebb and flow of therapy.

BB
Oh BB I feel for you with all your hurt and confusion and wish I could do something to help; but I can only offer my support and opinion, if that might help a bit.

I was really struck by you saying

quote:

[/I figured out pretty early on that he was trying to "let" me cry as he would put it, by showing real sympathy for my pain. But as soon as I figured that out, it just felt like a trick, and his compassion has never felt real to me since. It just feels like he pulls things out of his therapeutic bag of tricks and when he does that I completely shut down emotionally. Sometimes I peek up at him, and in that split second I see him quickly rearrange his features from either boredom, exhaustion, or severity back into all-accepting and interested therapist, QUOTE]

oh that seems really hard for you if you believe that's really what he's doing. My T has never shown 'real sympathy' in that way, I have always told her not to start 'being nice' when I get upset and she respects that. She just sits and is there, just as she always is, so I don't feel that anything is being forced out of me. She knows I am fearful of crying and says it will come but can only do when I am ready. I wonder if your P was being a bit too forceful and unreal ititially, with the best intentions, and now has retreated back to see how you take it onwards. I have no idea about the 'rearranging his features bit' - why he would want to do that, I have no idea. Most Ts and Ps are so difficult to read aren't they? I can understand how that would make you feel - would you be able to challenge him on that as something you perceive to be happening? He might be able to explain or offer some thoughts.

[QUOTE]But there is this other side of me that thinks that I am dead wrong about all of this and he is not like that at all. He even says that he is not like that at all. Who do I believe? Oh, it gets very confusing

Oh do ask him BB, sometimes (just sometimes mind ) we can be wrong and totally misread and misunderstand a situation; I know I have done several times in the heat of the moment and then felt a bit goofy when I eventually allowed her to explain!

Do talk to him BB, I remember you had fely so much more positive a wek or so ago. Forgive me but I can't remember if he is e-mailable? If you could e-mail him your concerns it might help that awful building up to telling and squirming in your session, and save valuable time too. Only a thought, but sending lots of those, and a hug too,

starfish

quote:

This last session his voice was very far away again, and I forget most, except that we decided to do couples counselling, and that I felt kind of forced into talking about my marriage problems. We will try to fix up my marriage. And I feel left behind again, like "me" is not an important part of the eqation, and that I am so petty to feel that way. It just feels like, the end result of this counseling is supposed to be that my husband gets what he wants from me, frankly. Then the objective will have been met, and who cares if I am left feeling like a piece of garbage?

BB, early on in my sessions with my t she asked me if I could commit to NOT threatening to leave my marriage, as this coping mechanism was having scary destabilizing effects for both me and my husband. I was totally thrown by her asking this. In retrospect I think I was really hurt and really angry that she would try to take away my only way of setting boundaries and protecting myself. I didn't really know how I felt at the time, though, I just started doing lots of dissociating, and hated going to my sessions around that time.

I very much felt like this was something for my husband's benefit, irrespective of my needs, and I felt absolutely misunderstood, sold out and betrayed. When I thought about making that commitment, I felt like it would obliterate me.

It became a very important moment in my therapy, but not in the way one might expect, because I still haven't made that commitment. After a certain amount of agony I told my t that I couldn't do it, that to think of it felt really wrong and upsetting to me. Here's the part I didn't expect: she accepted my feelings and my choice!!

Se didn't argue, quibble or try to persuade me. She just heard me and talked with me, as much as I could, about the mystery of why it felt that way.

And that took a lot of pressure off for me, because someone had allowed me a choice and respected my choice. I could hardly believe that had happened. I decided within myself that I would *try* to stay away from that big red button, and look again at making the formal commitment later if it felt right. It still doesn't, but now we are working on things in couples therapy, and that feels good.

I don't know if it's helpful to you to hear this story - I just wanted to let you know that I identified with that feeling of being kind of deprioritized by the couple stuff, and that I'd got some relief from that feeling by saying how I felt and what I wanted - even though it was directly opposite to what my t had asked of me. Really hard to do at the time, but it is one possible pathway.

In any case, don't underestimate how much this issue of bringing the couple stuff in could be affecting you. I know it totally threw me.

Go gently on yourself.

J

Hey Blackbird,

Even though it seems like it's frustrating for you, I'm glad you at least have found some relief. I've started to find that, in a lot of situations, I will grab on to one positive thing, which helps me ignore everything else. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's not.

When is your next session? I will be thinking of you.

quote:

My husband will "meet" with him
in a couple weeks time, and then we will probably start meeting with him together on a monthly basis, since that is all we can afford.

Oh NO! BB, no wonder you're feeling so hurt and overridden about this - you have to give up your precious time with your P for the couples therapy?

I understand the financial restrictions, for the longest time we couldn't even get near therapy because of this, but it's just so horrible.

quote:

Yeah, I know unless I speak up at some point- but I just can't, Jones, I just can't.

(((((BB))))) When I read this I had such a strong feeling of how scary it must be to think of saying these things, and I wanted to wrap you up and tell you it's all going to be okay.

It's so unfair that that little child in you was just starting to wake up and feel and respond and now you are moving on into that different space. It's not wrong to want to nurture yourself and get yourself in an okay position first - or to feel like you're being shortchanged by not getting that. So upsetting!

quote:

So I'm kind of stuck not speaking.

Awful feeling.... Sometimes the only thing that helps me with a stuck-feeling is sitting with it. I can't always do that, though.

Take care, BB. You are still doing therapy... you are still working on yourself and your marriage (whether alone or together) and feeling all you need to feel - it will get better.

Blackbird I am quite stunned that suddenly your precious sessions are going to be given over to couples’ therapy. I know this has already been arranged but I have to say that if I were you I would change my mind! I would say, no, hold on, this isn’t right for me I need these sessions for myself.

It sounds to me that if you give in here and use your sessions to cater to your husband’s needs that it’s yet again putting yourself down and putting everyone else first - at the least you’re going to shut down on what you need for yourself, and maybe even resent that your time (and money) is being spent on your husband instead of you.

Is your husband happy about doing the couples’ therapy with you, or is it your P who has pushed for it? Maybe it’s worth talking to your husband about it see what he thinks? Maybe it is what you want as well, but from the way you are writing about it, it sounds like something you are being pushed into without your needs and wants being considered.

Lamplighter

BB i agree with LL, it does sounds like its something you are being pushed into. Like monte said you are the priority. If it was me i think i would feel really resentful giving up my personal therapy for couples therapy when i didnt want to

Hev

BB

It all sounds so complicated for you BB, I am sorry. So you must take my thoughts with a pinch of salt as I don't want to add to your deliberating.

The couples therapy sounds important - for you and your husband but I guess maybe you need to make a decision about what is the priority for you - the couples stuff or your stuff? Maybe you might need to be in a better place yourself before you can be in a strong enough place for the couples work, maybe the other way round?? Do you need to forefit your precious sessions, in the hope of getting your husband alongside, so he can support you in the work you do alone? I really don't know the answer cos I guess I don't have that personal insight. But I know if I was in a hard place, which you seem to be now, then I would really want my sessions with my T for me, even just to get me over this little blip. And if you feel ganged up against, well that seems like a big warning light saying 'are you sure this is right for you?' Your husbands' needs, physical and emotional are important, but so are yours BB, so are yours. And because you feel guilty for not being 'good enough' you put the needs of others first and forget about yours. There is nothing shameful in telling your P that you want to experience your emotions first - perhaps you can't fix your marriage until maybe that is done. I know it will be a hard one because you will feel so selfish - but you are not, you are taking care of your own needs and accepting that they are important too. My T would be cock a hoop if I told her that I wanted to sort out my emotions and feelings beore I did any more work . Maybe too it will be difficult for your husband to accept (some men are wired very differently to us ) so maybe a good conversation to have with your P might be how to manage your marriage difficlties in the meantime and how to explain this to your husband.

Dear BB only some friendly thoughts from me, but whatever you decide you know you have so much support here and nobody here will ever skip over you.

starfish

BB
Take all the time you need, hold tight to what you know and trust and be gentle on yourself. You are managing an awful lot at the moment and battles with the soul strike at the deepest levels. I will not add to what I said before so as not to confuse or complicate further, except to say you don't sound remotely selfish, your post comes across as the complete opposite in fact.

You will make the right decision I am sure, you are strong and wise BB, it just won't feel like that right now. Give yourself time and allow yourself to do what you feel is right. Sending you a big hug (((BB))) and lots of thoughts to you and your little family too.

starfish

Hi BB,

I'm really pleased and relieved to hear that you talked this over honestly with your husband!! That was really really brave, and really really a positive step. Way to go!!!!

AND I know you don't have a great solution yet, but I'm so pleased he is okay with you continuing on your own if that is what is right for you. That means you do have a little bit of choice from among these options - you don't HAVE to do the couples if individual feels healthier for you right now.

Also, I REALLY want to reinforce something you said above -

quote:

And skipping over what I had just begun to work on with my P, might be detrimental for everyone, not just me.

Another way of phrasing this same idea: looking after yourself IS looking after your family.

Two other things -
1)

quote:

Anyways, I feel I have taken too much from here from all of you, and I should stop writing about all my neverending problems and angst now!

Blackbird, blackbird, take this to heart: people on this board give you what they WANT to give you. No one makes anyone else post here. We do it because it gives something to us. We do it if and when we want to and can handle. So you can suck up the caring and enjoy it in good conscience - you deserve it and it is GOOD for you.

2) Your question about sitting with it if you're stuck.

quote:

Does it mean try to feel it, the stuckness, or something else?

Yes, allowing yourself not to have the answer, feeling the feelings, letting yourself be in them and not trying to push them away. Maybe taking some time to go quiet inside and noticing what it feels like in there, all the sensations of being stuck. Accepting that this really is a rough place, and that I don't have the answers right now.

The thing is, when we fight against it really hard sometimes that makes the bad stuff last longer. But giving myself permission to feel the way I do seems to mean that the feelings can come and go more, rather than being locked in, somehow. I don't know, it's complex, but maybe there's something in it that helps - if not, by all means feel free to file this one in the big round file on the floor!

Keep sharing!

quote:

So you can suck up the caring and enjoy it in good conscience - you deserve it and it is GOOD for you.

What an AWESOME way to put this, Jones! So many of us need to hear this, I think we should make it the forum motto or something like that. "Suck up the caring and enjoy it in good conscience - you deserve it and it is GOOD for you." I LOVE IT!!

BB - I don't have much to add to all the great responses you've been getting, but I just wanted you to know I've been following your posts and I agree with everything that's been said in the responses. I'm also going through marriage difficulties right now, knowing I certainly have a part in the problem, but knowing there are other problems too, trying to sort it out and feeling really confused, with one foot out the door already. This is tough stuff! So I'm glad you are posting here, please don't EVER feel like you are talking too much or asking for too much at all. So much of what you've been describing is resonating with me right now, you are actually really helping me by articulating it, so maybe I'll be able to communicate it better to the couples T later this month when we start up again. And hopefully somewhere down the line I'll be able to post something that helps you! So Jones is right, we are all helping each other here, no need to feel apologetic in the least! I'm really glad you're here!

Hugs,
SG

BB

Poor you, no wonder you feel so confused. So many conflicting emotions and directions - am loathed to jump in with my opinion, for fear of confusing you further. So take what I say with a pinch of salt and ignore if it doesn't help you. Just some thoughts and observations...

1. I really think you have to address your relationship with your P before you can do more individual work. It's not good to hear you think he will not respect your decision, mutual respect should really underpin your work together, if not it will feel unbalanced.

2. Likewise I don't think that you should be doing the marriage work with your P if you haven't got that trust that he belives in you. And I need to say that to me your SD sounds pretty switched on in the psychological department

quote:

[ I experience with the priest, that if I present a problem, he *makes* me talk about it. Always, he makes me describe the problem to him. He is always asking, insisting I tell him about how it *feels.* Then he uses my terms to explain the problem back to me. Then we identify where the problem is coming from, and he just helps me to kind of explode the self-hatred that arises with the problem. He is profoundly practical and professional, and yet I feel a deep caring and compassion that means so much to me I can't explain it. It is wonderful,/QUOTE]

says it all really BB

3. Three Ts might be a tad confusing BB -and what about that marriage counselling with someone who already makes you feel bad?? I think you would really need to address those issues first BB - sorry

4. Now that would be hard for you I know. Have you tentatively looked to see if there is the possibility of any body locally? I would hate you to jump from the frying pan into the fire, in that way. But I felt really sad to read
[QUOTE] Sometimes it feels like he takes my problems with him very personally, instead of helping me see where those feelings may come from.

That makes me feel sad and angry that someone can make you feel like that. You don't deserve to feel like that now, and should never worry about how he takes any problems you have with him - you are not responsible for him BB. I really think that he needs to be really aware of how he makes you feel and for you to hear how that disconnect could be mended before you can start to get the healing you so deserve.

take care of yourself in your dilemmas and deliberating - I am glad you have your SD in the meantime. Hurrah that he told you that you were a good mum - (told you so!!!! )

starfish

BB glad you're able to vent a bit - certainly helps to clear the thoughts doesn't it?

quote:

He helps by saying, "ok it doesn't have to be perfect response. We can clear it up as you go, along, just say something, and if it doesn't feel right we work with that to clear it up." What a relief!

I do like the sound of this man BB, he sounds gentle and totally there for you. I can smpathise with the slence thing - nearly caused me many a time way back at the start to want to walk out. They don't easily give out first! I used to say to myself 'say anything, just say something' after many eternities - Now I will look at my T and she seems to know the difference between me being silent to avoid a difficulty (cue more silence)and silence because I have no words/ there are none to be said (cue her coming in to help out). And now I know there really is a difference.

And BB can I add to what your SD has been telling you - that you are not bad at all, ever. If you say it long enough you will believe it (believe me I know) for yourself and for how you perceive others to see you. So just for today hold on to something positive as well -like you being a good mum (and making great cake to boot )

starfish

Hi BB,

I am soooo sorry...I never meant to imply that your P, or my ex-T for that matter, was "evil" at all! If that's the way I'm coming across, in this thread or others, then I feel terrible. In my post to you, I was just comparing how I felt with him, with how I feel with her, that's all. My ex-T does have a lot of good qualities, just like your P does, which is why it hurt so much to get the impression that he had negative thoughts or feelings toward me. It still hurts. But it was also a relief to find the kind of safe space I find with my current T, so I don't have to worry that I'm "too much" for her. I thought I heard the same relief in what you were saying about your SD, so I was trying to give you support by identifying with your feelings in both situations. I'm sorry if the outcome with my ex-T, or anything I've said about him on this board, makes my identification with your feelings something to feel bad about! Now that I know that, I won't do it anymore, not just to you but in response to anything anyone says. I'm really sorry if anything I said brought you down. You know your relationship with your P better than anyone could and you know what is right for you. I very much hope that you can work through whatever is difficult right now in your relationship with your beloved P. So please, no panic, no tears, OK?

SG

BB, of course all is OK. I'm sorry I misunderstood your joke. I'm too thin-skinned about it because I worry so much that I've been too negative in talking about him here, or have talked about him too much. But I still think I need to stop making comparisons to my ex-T, because the outcome of that could lead people to draw conclusions about their own situations that aren't even true. There's no way I can tell if your P is doing right by you or not. So even though you were joking, I'm still sorry I made the comparison. I just wanted to be supportive, not so much that anything is necessarily "wrong" with your P, but that what is happening with your SD sounds so "right" (according to my definition of "right", which may or may not be right for you...maybe not even right for me?). And I really want to respond to your other questions, but I am falling asleep...so I hope it is okay that I respond more tomorrow? Good night...sleep well...

SG

BB I’m starting another thread about the problems I’m having with my T and a lot of what you are saying in your last posts sounds awfully familiar. I really like the way you have described how your SD relates to you, that sounds exactly like I imagine a good T would/should be and it’s been really helpful for me to read it - gives me a concrete example of the kind of stuff I instinctively know I’m wanting from therapy - and not getting.

I so relate to how you’re feeling about your P, questioning whether he’s really doing his job properly, blaming yourself, wondering whether he does know what he’s doing or whether you ought to just go along with him because he ought to know better than you what he’s doing that sort of stuff. I’m exactly the same with being put on the spot - having to come up with things all by myself when I really believe that that’s the T’s job to enable it. And it’s not something that it’s easy to confront a T about - effectively saying ‘are you doing your job properly’? Of course they’re going to say yes. Catch 22 really.

Anyway I really hope doing the couples’ therapy with him works - maybe because it will be a different dynamic he will show himself to be a good P after all.

Hi BB,

I know you are really suffering over this, so before I ask my blunt question, I want to assure you that I have a lot of sympathy for this and that I think you deserve care and happiness and healing.

OK, my blunt question: What makes you think your P is brilliant and compassionate? Why do you think he is actually awesome? What evidence do you have of those things?

You are getting the experience of those things with your SD (he ACTS compassionate and you FEEL cared for), but it really doesn't sound like that's the way it FEELS with your P. You are a very loyal li'l blackbird, I know that much, and you hate to sound ungrateful or critical, that is clear too. It sort of sounds like it is much, much easier to believe that you are the one with the problem, than to believe that your loved P is not deserving of your attachment. Ouch. I hope it's okay to say this much. I feel for you.

J

Hey BB,
You know she is a therapist, I am just wondering how she got around that Google alarm system. You know the one- if a therapist tries to join, an immediate google search is started (a background check). They look to see if the word therapist is in their background. If it is, an alarm sounds and they are immediately booted off the site. Just how did Jones get around that. Maybe she was already in before they installed it.

Anyway- I am so sorry that you are struggling, but I do agree with Dr. Jones PsyD

I think you and i might have the same T, except for the Gandalf part.

Could you ask him to ask you questions about what you are talking about?

The reason I write letters to my T and bring them to therapy is because I don't wan't to waste my time or his, Kind of selfish though= I just want to make sure I talk to him about the things that bothered me or came up during the week.

This is stupid and off topic but - Have you ever noticed that right below the reply to post box there is a message- it reads-
Add Attachment? I want to answer that question- How about NO Thank you, I have enough already.

Feel better BB, you are always a sweet, ray of sunshine on here. I enjoy reading your posts, but I wish you were not in pain.

quote:

Did you fix the big disconnect?

Sort of, He is back to his old great self, but he really has not fessed up to exactly what made him angry. Maybe sweeping it under the rug is ok. I know his heart, and he apologized. I am staying away from spiritual discussions with him for a while, though.

Oh crimmey, it is 3:22 AM! Must go to bed.
Night BB

BB, maybe they do not always get us, so we can get mad. And then we can tell them that we were mad? I got a bit mad with my T recently when he went on with his usual ramble (which I usually love), but all I wanted to do in that particular moment was to see his eyes and feel... and for him to be quiet.
Don't think too much, feel instead

((((BB)))) It really is that simple, but that most certainly does NOT mean it's easy.

But I want to make clear that there's are really good reasons why this is so difficult. We learned the hard way to keep both our feelings and needs under wraps because it led to getting hurt, so although it sounds so simple to say "just tell him how you feel" it's an absolutely terrifying thing to do. But it's the only way we can learn that it's a good thing to express our feelings and move towards someone. I read a book recently that was trying to explain to T/Ps what they are asking of a trauma victim when they say "trust me." The author told them to imagine that a trusted supervisor takes them to the top of a very tall building and the supervisor says that they have learned something really extraordinary and now they're going to demonstrate. And then the supervisor steps off the building and floats gently to the ground, then turns to you and says "see step off you'll be fine." How many people would just bolt down the stairs?

This is what is at the heart of what is so difficult about healing from these types of injuries. You have to do the very thing that terrifies you the most in order to get better. So please don't beat yourself up, there are good reasons that this is NOT easy, no matter how simple the principle is.

Difference between Ts and Ps. Therapist is a catch all term for people who do talk therapy. Most states will license people to do talk therapy based on a number of different degrees, the lowest usually being a master's in Social Work or Mental Health Counseling. So they are licensed to practice therapy but are NOT medical doctors nor can they prescribe medication. Then there are psychologist's whom have a doctorate in psychology, who also do talk therapy but cannot prescribe drugs, but are usually more expensive based on the fact that they have a more advanced degree. Then you have psychiatrists (Ps) who are medical doctors, who have specialized in psychology. There tend to be two types of Ps these days. Ps who do traditional talk therapy and psychopharmocologists who mainly prescribe medications and see their patients for much shorter appts. Hope that helps! BTW, fwiw, most studied have not correlated the degree of the practioner to their efficacy as a therapist.

AG

BB, I think it's great that you had a day like this with your kids. Well, yeah, it relates back to your P, but it means this therapy is working! One year in therapy and you feel the change.
My feeling better this year then the year before also has a lot to do with my therapist being there for me rather then me being able to be stronger on my own. I wouldn't be like this without him. But that's the begining, he is pulling this strength and better mood out of you, it has to start somewhere doesn't it?
So to answer your questions:
Is everything alright? Not yet, but it is better isn't it?
Are you better? Some days yes, well, that is good then, so eventually these days are going to get more frequent
Are you where you want to be? You said no, well not yet, but you see that some days are good.

BB, don't worry that your feeling better is tied so closely to your P, this is the beggining. That means he is pulling you out, and that's what he is supposed to be doing to help you out.
I actually think your post is full of hope and I believe this is going to work and you will be out of this dark place.

Hi BB,
My guy is a PsyD Doctor of psychology and i call him T just on these boards. He does not use the term therapist, but I too thought that P stood for Psychiatrist. I call him by his first name normally in session.

Anyway- it is so fine to hear of your your improvement, and yea AG explains things very well. (thank you AG)

I am not sure how important it is that you remember all the bad shit, because I am not doing very well in that department, but what is more important is how your experiences effect, or in my case, interfere with my growth as an adult. I used to tell my T, that maybe this stuff really didn't happen, maybe I made it up. But then I thought- why in the heck would I do that?What is more important is how we are growing as a result of the oh so important theraputic relationship.

quote:

Maybe it really was all kind of ok for me and I really am just making a mountain out of a molehill.

It seems you are saying something similar to what I said. - It is called denial.
I worked for so long trying to gain more memories of the abuse, but I was spinning my wheels, and I have not gained much. I thought I had to in order to forgive myself (which is an ongoing process), but I learned that I don't.

quote:

BB, don't worry that your feeling better is tied so closely to your P, this is the beginning. That means he is pulling you out, and that's what he is supposed to be doing to help you out.

Amazon is right on here. This has been my experience as well. I have an analytic mind and sometimes I drove my self crazy trying to figure stuff out. My T would just say- "Let life be" I dont even know what that means, other than stop thinking so much. Think less- feel more. Well that is not happening yet, but ... ahhhh lost my thoughts. Rambling anyway.
So sweet- planting with your kids.

quote:

move towards someone.

Thanks for that reminder AG. I think this is the absolute scarriest thing to do. Just looking at those words frighten me and this is what my T wants to talk about next time. The anxiety over this step is making me ill.

quote:

I just think I was neglected pretty bad as a kid, and suffered some abuse.

BB,
But this is exactly what trauma is! Children die without adults to take care of them, so that neglect leaves a child in at a minimum in constant perceived state of danger and any abuse is too much. The definition of trauma is that something threatening happens for which we do not have the emotional resources to cope. When our attachment figures aren't teaching us how to regulate our emotions or soothe ourselves or help us feel safe (because the world often feels scary for a child who is
WELL taken care of), it's easy to overwhelm our systems. Do this enough and you get a pretty bad picture of the universe being a dangerous place, full of dangerous people who will not meet your needs and indeed will sometimes actively hurt you. I am NOT trying to paint you as a victim, nor be overreactive, but I have seen this inability to see what happened to you as serious or meriting your attention, way too many times. It's the aspect of trauma that I most hate. That one of the effects is that we minimize it to the point that we convince ourselves we don't deserve to get help dealing with the fallout.

I had a rather vigorous go around on this subject a while back which you can read here (if you haven't already seen it, I've linked back to it a few times. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.) Really, really mad

(((Mayo))) I totally get how scary it is, but I know you can do it!

AG

quote:

I relly think all my angst about him not getting me is in my own head now! I just need to practice with him saying what's on my mind/what I'm feeling I think. I start to think, maybe that's all there is to it. It's that simple.

Could it possibly be that simple?

BB, I just want to reinforce what AG said about this - it's that simple, but not easy. But how wonderful that you are a) starting to do this and b) getting some reward and relief as a result!! Perfect. I love it when the universe behaves. I know with all the struggle you've been through lately it wouldn't have been easy to let your P/T know how you are feeling, but you did!! And it worked, and this is absolute proof that you are able to do it again.

And how beautiful that you bought flowers to plant with your kiddies! What a wonderful thing to do with them - truly nurturing in every sense. How is it going? Did you get to plant them yet?