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Hi UV,
My first thought after reading that when you tell him of love feelings and good feelings he's invoking in you, he pulls away, then becomes more talkative and jokative (sure, it can be a word, I know what you meant
), is that he's feeling nervous or unsure as to how to respond. So he pulls away initially...but then when he realizes what he's done, he tries to move in closer again, but he's probably still nervous, so he talks and jokes a lot to cover that up.
I don't know how true this is but I have heard that most courses of study that therapists have gone through do not teach them how to handle being told by their patients of the feelings they are having about the relationship with them. But I'm pretty sure they are told about basic boundaries, such as don't take advantage of your patients or you will get in big trouble. So it seems like they are only getting half the story, the part that instills fear, without getting the part that tells them how to handle it properly. Or at least it seems that way from most of the stories I've read, and from my own experience, which you already know about.
Has he ever mentioned whether he's had any other patients tell him about feelings like this? If he hasn't mentioned anything one way or the other, do you think you could ask him? Whether he has or he hasn't, it could kick off a really good discussion that might reveal where he is at with this and how he can help you.
BTW, AG's T's response to her sharing her feelings with him is the one I think all T's should be taught in therapy school, that any and all of her feelings are welcome to be discussed in his office, that he has the boundaries and she is safe. She has described his response in many of her posts...here is one of her descriptions from the Update on Transference thread:
Good luck UV...let us know how it goes.
SG
My first thought after reading that when you tell him of love feelings and good feelings he's invoking in you, he pulls away, then becomes more talkative and jokative (sure, it can be a word, I know what you meant
), is that he's feeling nervous or unsure as to how to respond. So he pulls away initially...but then when he realizes what he's done, he tries to move in closer again, but he's probably still nervous, so he talks and jokes a lot to cover that up. I don't know how true this is but I have heard that most courses of study that therapists have gone through do not teach them how to handle being told by their patients of the feelings they are having about the relationship with them. But I'm pretty sure they are told about basic boundaries, such as don't take advantage of your patients or you will get in big trouble. So it seems like they are only getting half the story, the part that instills fear, without getting the part that tells them how to handle it properly. Or at least it seems that way from most of the stories I've read, and from my own experience, which you already know about.
Has he ever mentioned whether he's had any other patients tell him about feelings like this? If he hasn't mentioned anything one way or the other, do you think you could ask him? Whether he has or he hasn't, it could kick off a really good discussion that might reveal where he is at with this and how he can help you.
BTW, AG's T's response to her sharing her feelings with him is the one I think all T's should be taught in therapy school, that any and all of her feelings are welcome to be discussed in his office, that he has the boundaries and she is safe.
She has described his response in many of her posts...here is one of her descriptions from the Update on Transference thread:quote:One of the things I have really appreciated about my T in dealing with the transference is how open he has been to talking about our relationship (from every possible aspect). Most of our sessions start in talking about us and end up with me talking about my past. He is my emotional road map. The feelings and issues that come up with him, are exactly the very issues that I need to process.
He has an incredible ability to stay very calm, non-defensive and open no matter what I'm talking to him about. I remember once, early on in our work, his telling me that ALL of my emotions were welcome in his office, that nothing was out of bounds or too scary to discuss. Because SO much could not be spoken about in my family of origin, this was incredibly powerful. And his continuing to be present and stay with me, no matter what, is the thing that is so powerfully healing about the relationship.
I once thanked him for the fact that he welcomed all my feelings and never once had he denigrated me for having any of them. His response? "That's all you ever needed." Priceless.
Good luck UV...let us know how it goes.
SG
quote:Well, we never discussed these feelings yet since this thought has just recently emerged, but it reminds me of my parents being dismissive.
Hi Uv
Yea- you responded to my thread last night- thanks for that.
You know where my mind is at- so I say shoot him with both barrels!
NO- seriously, I am having anger management issues lately, but my rational mind can relate very well to your situation. I think- calmly talking to him and explaining things to him just as clearly as you explained it here, is a good thing to do. You were very clear and concise in your explanation of how you feel so this will keep an honest door open between the 2 of you.
In the past- My T had triggered the parent stuff with me and I have discussed it with him. The type of therapy he uses- this is precisely the way it works. I work out my feelings- fears anger... stuff I had never been aware of, stuff I had never processed from those that did me harm, parents, pervert- or who ever. When I became aware and voiced to him that he was getting the brunt of my unfinished work with who ever- he smiled (I got the gold star- so to speak) and said- that awareness is huge in dealing with future stuff. Unfortunately in dealing with future stuff- when going through it, that awareness is not always present.
Like the other day at the Y. Marks dismissise tone angered me, but you have reminded me that the anger was not about him. The man is entitled to swim laps with out my chitter chatter.. It triggered my fathers dismissive attitude towards me. Am I making sense? ( so it is a good thing that I left in silence rather than voicing any explecitives- (spelling???)
Hope that helps a little
uv, everyone else had great stuff to say, i too think he retreated as he didn't know what to say then advanced with safe, silly stuff. and i do think attacking this from another angle...like someone mentioned asking if he has dealt with other people having fond feelings for him, to see,and more comfortable open that can of emotions. i never could, a huge part of me never wanted to admit any fondness to him, as in so many ways i was so mad at my first t for his 'inability to help and heal and even SEE my issues'.
but, i admire your braveness in discusssing this with him and can only encourage you to keep at it. i bolted, but there were other reasons too, like his pulling back but never coming forward again, his inability to compliment me and really encourage me...just blank face and listening ear...enough to send me completely over my edge...however, that apparently is what i needed to work through to heal THAT part of me....i ran....typical, so i encourage you NOT to be a big chicken like me and try to work it out...they say that is where the healing is!!!!!!!!!!!! good luck!! jill
but, i admire your braveness in discusssing this with him and can only encourage you to keep at it. i bolted, but there were other reasons too, like his pulling back but never coming forward again, his inability to compliment me and really encourage me...just blank face and listening ear...enough to send me completely over my edge...however, that apparently is what i needed to work through to heal THAT part of me....i ran....typical, so i encourage you NOT to be a big chicken like me and try to work it out...they say that is where the healing is!!!!!!!!!!!! good luck!! jill
Hi UV - I agree these are good & interesting answers. Just wanted to chuck in another possible interpretation, not because it's any more correct (I've no idea) but just because it might be worth considering: T hears you saying you feel good feelings - acceptance, understanding, love - and he relaxes, takes the opportunity to take the therapy into some lighter, less intense but potentially also enjoyable territory, to expand the range of what happens between you, to moderate the emotional work with emotional rest time, or just because.
Could such a situation feel dismissive to you because of the way your parents were? Again I've no idea, but it could be worth checking out. It might not be possible to get clear on whether the dismissive feelings are coming from him or from you or from both until you talk with him though.
And by the by, I'm sorry your parents were really insensitive to what you were going through as a young mother. It sounds like you badly needed them to step up at that time, and they did not.
J
Could such a situation feel dismissive to you because of the way your parents were? Again I've no idea, but it could be worth checking out. It might not be possible to get clear on whether the dismissive feelings are coming from him or from you or from both until you talk with him though.
And by the by, I'm sorry your parents were really insensitive to what you were going through as a young mother. It sounds like you badly needed them to step up at that time, and they did not.
J
good point, jones...one i would never think of, as it doesn't support my own personal view for my own circumstances that EVERYTHING ENDS IN A TRAINWRECK!! so glad you brought up a very likely and real conclusion!! love you optimists/realists out there!! believe me, i have EVERY negative covered, so y'all just keep the smile turned upward!! jill
ultrviolet,
I wanted to add my thoughts, FWIW. I know how the dismissive feeling, real or imagined, can feel so confusing and painful. I really think it can do a lot of damage by reinforcing the old negative messages, which obviously is exactly what you don't want to do.
Does he tend to use humor in sessions in other places? I am wondering if humor is one of his defaults or at least a comfortable way of interacting. And perhaps Like Jones said, he may feel since you have been open with him, he can be more comfortable with you??
I also wanted to share my experience with this in case it rings true for you in some way. I tend to use a lot of humor when talking about my feelings as a defense mechanism, and did this a lot prior to discussing my feelings about the relationship. I noticed that after I opened up, using humor in that way greatly decreased for me. It was suddenly no longer funny to me. I realized it when my T reacted by making light of something I had said. She thought I was trying to be funny, but this time, wasn't - I was trying to express a feeling. Not only did I feel dismissed and laughed at, I heard my father's voice telling me to 'stop feeling.' And she had no idea that she had hurt me until I told her.
I hope you can talk to your T about this and feel better soon.
I wanted to add my thoughts, FWIW. I know how the dismissive feeling, real or imagined, can feel so confusing and painful. I really think it can do a lot of damage by reinforcing the old negative messages, which obviously is exactly what you don't want to do.
Does he tend to use humor in sessions in other places? I am wondering if humor is one of his defaults or at least a comfortable way of interacting. And perhaps Like Jones said, he may feel since you have been open with him, he can be more comfortable with you??
I also wanted to share my experience with this in case it rings true for you in some way. I tend to use a lot of humor when talking about my feelings as a defense mechanism, and did this a lot prior to discussing my feelings about the relationship. I noticed that after I opened up, using humor in that way greatly decreased for me. It was suddenly no longer funny to me. I realized it when my T reacted by making light of something I had said. She thought I was trying to be funny, but this time, wasn't - I was trying to express a feeling. Not only did I feel dismissed and laughed at, I heard my father's voice telling me to 'stop feeling.' And she had no idea that she had hurt me until I told her.
I hope you can talk to your T about this and feel better soon.
UV it’s hard to tell what’s going on with your T - but I can put myself in your place and know that I would be feeling very freaked out by his becoming all jokey and chatty after having told him how I feel about him. That you’ve picked up on it and it’s making you feel that something might be going on beneath the surface is a pretty good indication that there IS something going on, whether it’s in you or in him or in both of you and that says to me you probably need to speak to him about it!
For what it’s worth I don’t think he would be doing it deliberately ie in order to manipulate you emotionally in some way (for instance, trying to discourage feelings of dependency in you) - from what I understand of therapy that sort of thing isn’t the way Ts operate.
My suspicion, based on the way you’ve described it, is that he’s a bit uncomfortable with it, doesn’t quite know how to deal openly with your feelings for him (which would be strange I admit, seeing as how he’s psychodynamic and in theory psychodynamic Ts work actively with transference and feelings about them so he ought not to be uncomfortable about it.)
Ultimately of course you need to go with your own perceptions and feelings, and trying to work out what he might be thinking or what his motives are could really lead you up the garden path - trust your own feelings on this. I like SG’s idea of asking him whether he’s had other clients reveal feelings for him like this - that’s a pretty good way to get the discussion going without your having to confront him.
I hope you can speak to him soon about this - it sounds like one of those not quite really serious things that could actually turn out to be a major red flag, so the sooner you can get your doubts allayed, the better.
Hope you get to see him soon.
LL
For what it’s worth I don’t think he would be doing it deliberately ie in order to manipulate you emotionally in some way (for instance, trying to discourage feelings of dependency in you) - from what I understand of therapy that sort of thing isn’t the way Ts operate.
My suspicion, based on the way you’ve described it, is that he’s a bit uncomfortable with it, doesn’t quite know how to deal openly with your feelings for him (which would be strange I admit, seeing as how he’s psychodynamic and in theory psychodynamic Ts work actively with transference and feelings about them so he ought not to be uncomfortable about it.)
Ultimately of course you need to go with your own perceptions and feelings, and trying to work out what he might be thinking or what his motives are could really lead you up the garden path - trust your own feelings on this. I like SG’s idea of asking him whether he’s had other clients reveal feelings for him like this - that’s a pretty good way to get the discussion going without your having to confront him.
I hope you can speak to him soon about this - it sounds like one of those not quite really serious things that could actually turn out to be a major red flag, so the sooner you can get your doubts allayed, the better.
Hope you get to see him soon.
LL
UV, as you can see each of us may have a different idea what your T might be like, so you do need to take it all with a grain of salt and hopefully find out one day, what really the story is about ... the feelings.
My bet is (kind of similar to what Jones said) that when your T appears to be dismissive, could it be that he does not really want to push you into talking more about these feelings untill you feel you are ready to do so? Could it be a way of him trying to take the pressure of you? Still being close but on a different level perhaps? I know that my T could be in a similar kind of way. When we do some "feelings talk" (which is not an easy part), he may step back a bit but is still there.
My T would say half-serious things as well every now and then as a way of easing off the conversation a bit.
It is really difficult to say. For sure your T is not perfect (nor is mine) and we add our own perception to it too.
Sometimes I find my T so caring and attentive and perfect, and sometimes I think he does try so hard, but still appears a bit phoney to me
...or maybe he (your T) is not perfectly attuned and may be slightly pulling away in a wrong time? when you not ready?...
and this reminds me of me pulling away from my T, while he was trying to be really attentive and really close, while I was looking at him from a distance and thinking how fake he is now... (which is not true, he is perfect )
Whatever he is or is not doing, it is provoking some important feelings in you. They could as well be related to how you felt in the past with your parents.
I think, since he is psychodynamically oriented, he must have dealt with transference surely more then once. I imagine that his own psychotherapy was probably the best training in addressing and handling his clients feelings.
Again - idealising transference here - I would hold on to your, mine, any therapist being perfect (despite their flaws).
My bet is (kind of similar to what Jones said) that when your T appears to be dismissive, could it be that he does not really want to push you into talking more about these feelings untill you feel you are ready to do so? Could it be a way of him trying to take the pressure of you? Still being close but on a different level perhaps? I know that my T could be in a similar kind of way. When we do some "feelings talk" (which is not an easy part), he may step back a bit but is still there.
My T would say half-serious things as well every now and then as a way of easing off the conversation a bit.
It is really difficult to say. For sure your T is not perfect (nor is mine) and we add our own perception to it too.
Sometimes I find my T so caring and attentive and perfect, and sometimes I think he does try so hard, but still appears a bit phoney to me
...or maybe he (your T) is not perfectly attuned and may be slightly pulling away in a wrong time? when you not ready?...
and this reminds me of me pulling away from my T, while he was trying to be really attentive and really close, while I was looking at him from a distance and thinking how fake he is now... (which is not true, he is perfect
)Whatever he is or is not doing, it is provoking some important feelings in you. They could as well be related to how you felt in the past with your parents.
I think, since he is psychodynamically oriented, he must have dealt with transference surely more then once. I imagine that his own psychotherapy was probably the best training in addressing and handling his clients feelings.
Again - idealising transference here - I would hold on to your, mine, any therapist being perfect (despite their flaws).
I know I am late, but have a few thoughts.
I can really relate to this. It is scary to be mad a them, and at least for me, being angry at myself for my inherent flaws is much safer and very automatic (those neuro-pathways again
).
This is such an awful feeling - I am so sorry. I know that it is difficult. I have noticed that I go through this along with a sense of confusion and inability to think clearly (fogginess) before I have a breakthrough or a new insight - sometimes even small ones. Maybe that is what is happening for you?
I could have written this. I go through this exact feeling. Even though I have noticed that the fogginess precedes insight, I still worry every time it happens that this time it is not going to get better. Hang in there - it will get better. My T reminds me that no feeling can last forever.
Yes! You are healing. New awareness, new insights. But damn, it would be so much easier if all the new connections we made felt positive.
This is a big part of what I love about this place! The support is amazing, but the process of typing it out in combination with the great responses from everyone really helps me organize my thoughts so I can talk about it w T.
quote:Originally posted by ultraviolet:
I had a brief feeling of anger at him (I think now for some reason my feelings might have been more relational as opposed to transference) the end and right after that session, though they were short lived, and it turned into this--feeling badly about myself.
I can really relate to this. It is scary to be mad a them, and at least for me, being angry at myself for my inherent flaws is much safer and very automatic (those neuro-pathways again
).quote:
I want to do nothing but curl up in bed...
This is such an awful feeling - I am so sorry. I know that it is difficult. I have noticed that I go through this along with a sense of confusion and inability to think clearly (fogginess) before I have a breakthrough or a new insight - sometimes even small ones. Maybe that is what is happening for you?
quote:
I want this feeling to go away, and now have a new fear to deal with...a fear I am not getting better as I had recently thought. But hopefully this will end up to be very therapeutic after our next session.
I could have written this. I go through this exact feeling. Even though I have noticed that the fogginess precedes insight, I still worry every time it happens that this time it is not going to get better. Hang in there - it will get better. My T reminds me that no feeling can last forever.
quote:
I'm starting to think this might be internalizing my anger, as I've suspected I've done that since childhood. I was just able to escape its effects for X number of years and maybe I can't do so any longer. I've never 'caught myself in the act' of doing this before, aside from the intellectual awareness; I think part of this might be me becoming emotionally aware of it-an insight. Just not a pretty one to contend with.
Yes! You are healing. New awareness, new insights. But damn, it would be so much easier if all the new connections we made felt positive.
quote:
It's also interesting I figured out what's going on by writing this out and reading your responses. Not that it's all figured out, but upon processing this thread then writing this, I think I know what's going on. But will have to wait to hear what T thinks.
This is a big part of what I love about this place! The support is amazing, but the process of typing it out in combination with the great responses from everyone really helps me organize my thoughts so I can talk about it w T.
Hi UV... I don't know if you were around on the Board back when I wrote about the discussion I had with my T about transference. It was rather eye-opening.
I had written a poem 2 summers ago that I decided to read to him in session. It was basically about my therapy journey and how I began and where I was now and where I needed to go with his help and support. I had not written poetry for many years and I felt that just the fact that I had written this was a good sign of my being able to feel feelings and process the work we were doing and also to release some creativity which had been blocked for awhile by my anxiety. And so I read it to him and oh wow... I saw how I freaked him out. He almost physically backed away from me and he looked terrified!
When I looked up he said to me... uh it sounds like you were writing about a "significant other" and I was shocked. I was talking about therapy and he was thinking romance! I said noooo... I was talking about my therapy journey and tried to explain but his reaction sort of took away any brain function I had left at that point being that I was scared to begin with to share my work with him. And so... what did he do? He started talking about... REAL ESTATE AND THE WINE BUSINESS... I'm not kidding. He just totally ignored the poem. Talk about feeling dismissed. I left there that day feeling so ashamed and embarrassed. I wanted to disappear and never go back but I was also angry that he ignored what I had to say and would not even discuss it.
As luck would have it my son (who sees him too) had an appointment the next evening and I planned to take the appointment instead to clarify things. I set my son up in the waiting room with his DVD player and i went in. I had written a full interpretation of my poem which I read to him....by the end of this we were both sobbing. We then talked about... the dreaded T word... transference and he confessed to me that he had no knowledge of it and never experienced it with a patient. I could not help smiling at him and he said ... you are probably smiling because you know more about this that I do. (Of course I did... I researched everything I could find on the net and read In Session.) We had a long very open and honest talk about it which carried over into the next session. I told him that he should be able and willing to accept any and all of my feelings for him... even undying love and devotion. And although my poem was not about that it should not matter. What I feel should be accepted by him. Then I told him that I would never act on any feelings and that I needed him to be my T more than I needed him to be anything else in my life. It was a real defining session in our relationship. I was scared but felt so much better because I understood he pulled away and acted like that because HE was scared he could not handle the transference and it would get in the way of the therapy. I have worked very hard not to let my feelings for him stop me from telling him anything I needed to.
So what I want to emphasize here is that we take for granted that Ts are trained in this and that they have experienced transference multiple times and are adept at handling it smoothly (like AG's wonderful T)... but many have not. And the schools barely touch on this topic. My T is a PhD and I could not imagine that he was not trained in handling this. But I discovered otherwise. And so what they do when put on the spot is they revert to humor, to changing the subject, to nodding sagely... leaving you feeling unsure of what they think. And then of course, we turn it back on ourselves... we did something wrong, we said the wrong things, we somehow caused a disconnect when it's them trying to deal. What makes it even worse is if the T has some feelings for the client.
I really wish this subject was less taboo in therapy and that Ts/Ps got better training in handling it non-defensively and directly with clients. It would save so many of us those sleepless nights.
On another note... my T uses humor a lot and I usually love it. But very lately, with our disruption it has not gone over as well and he looked at me the other day and said... I'm sure my humor annoys the heck out of you. And I said.. sometimes it feels a bit hurtful but I do usually enjoy it. So I promised to tell him when it felt hurtful or upsetting in anyway and I made him promise not to stop being funny.
Good luck in your next session.
TN
I had written a poem 2 summers ago that I decided to read to him in session. It was basically about my therapy journey and how I began and where I was now and where I needed to go with his help and support. I had not written poetry for many years and I felt that just the fact that I had written this was a good sign of my being able to feel feelings and process the work we were doing and also to release some creativity which had been blocked for awhile by my anxiety. And so I read it to him and oh wow... I saw how I freaked him out. He almost physically backed away from me and he looked terrified!
When I looked up he said to me... uh it sounds like you were writing about a "significant other" and I was shocked. I was talking about therapy and he was thinking romance! I said noooo... I was talking about my therapy journey and tried to explain but his reaction sort of took away any brain function I had left at that point being that I was scared to begin with to share my work with him. And so... what did he do? He started talking about... REAL ESTATE AND THE WINE BUSINESS... I'm not kidding. He just totally ignored the poem. Talk about feeling dismissed. I left there that day feeling so ashamed and embarrassed. I wanted to disappear and never go back but I was also angry that he ignored what I had to say and would not even discuss it.As luck would have it my son (who sees him too) had an appointment the next evening and I planned to take the appointment instead to clarify things. I set my son up in the waiting room with his DVD player and i went in. I had written a full interpretation of my poem which I read to him....by the end of this we were both sobbing. We then talked about... the dreaded T word... transference and he confessed to me that he had no knowledge of it and never experienced it with a patient. I could not help smiling at him and he said ... you are probably smiling because you know more about this that I do. (Of course I did... I researched everything I could find on the net and read In Session.) We had a long very open and honest talk about it which carried over into the next session. I told him that he should be able and willing to accept any and all of my feelings for him... even undying love and devotion. And although my poem was not about that it should not matter. What I feel should be accepted by him. Then I told him that I would never act on any feelings and that I needed him to be my T more than I needed him to be anything else in my life. It was a real defining session in our relationship. I was scared but felt so much better because I understood he pulled away and acted like that because HE was scared he could not handle the transference and it would get in the way of the therapy. I have worked very hard not to let my feelings for him stop me from telling him anything I needed to.
So what I want to emphasize here is that we take for granted that Ts are trained in this and that they have experienced transference multiple times and are adept at handling it smoothly (like AG's wonderful T)... but many have not. And the schools barely touch on this topic. My T is a PhD and I could not imagine that he was not trained in handling this. But I discovered otherwise. And so what they do when put on the spot is they revert to humor, to changing the subject, to nodding sagely... leaving you feeling unsure of what they think. And then of course, we turn it back on ourselves... we did something wrong, we said the wrong things, we somehow caused a disconnect when it's them trying to deal. What makes it even worse is if the T has some feelings for the client.
I really wish this subject was less taboo in therapy and that Ts/Ps got better training in handling it non-defensively and directly with clients. It would save so many of us those sleepless nights.
On another note... my T uses humor a lot and I usually love it. But very lately, with our disruption it has not gone over as well and he looked at me the other day and said... I'm sure my humor annoys the heck out of you. And I said.. sometimes it feels a bit hurtful but I do usually enjoy it. So I promised to tell him when it felt hurtful or upsetting in anyway and I made him promise not to stop being funny.
Good luck in your next session.
TN
UV that’s wonderful! That you’ve had a great session, been able to talk so openly to T and be heard and understood and now you’re feeling great again - I’m so glad your previous doubts and fears have been settled and it’s brilliant to hear about how good and healing your relationship with your T is.
Um, sorry though, I’m a bit confused by your reply to my previous reply - lol I’m confused about what I was confused about. Did I misunderstand that T had seemed dismissive (by being his jokey self) of your telling him about the good feelings he inspires in you? Sorry to be a bother, but it’s really worrying me that I misunderstood something so wrongly.
LL
Um, sorry though, I’m a bit confused by your reply to my previous reply - lol I’m confused about what I was confused about. Did I misunderstand that T had seemed dismissive (by being his jokey self) of your telling him about the good feelings he inspires in you? Sorry to be a bother, but it’s really worrying me that I misunderstood something so wrongly.
LL
UV thanks so much for explaining that, and I'm sorry I got myself all worked up about it.
Hope you are still feeling great :hug:
LL
Hope you are still feeling great :hug:
LL