.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Hi Monte,
Oh, wow, can I EVER relate to what you said. In fact I think the reason I'm reclusive is because I'm so sensitive to what people say and do. If I stay properly hidden, then I won't get hurt, right? But then it gets lonely so I poke my head out of my shell and try to live a little...I think my life has been a series of venturing out a little more each time, and having to retreat when I get stepped on, bumped, kicked, (in my case sometimes just looked at in the wrong way), etc. It has been SLOW GOING. And it is immensely frustrating to see others who seem to bear up under the same circumstances apparently without the need for retreat, who don't seem nearly as affected by them. Sometimes I wish I could just plug a USB port into the base of my brain and download a whole new and different "operating system" as it were.
In fact when I first started therapy I repeatedly asked for hypnosis, thinking that was the only way to get to this deeper underlying stuff. Ugh. 
I'm sorry you lost the momentum working with your T through the book you made. I hope it picks back up at some point...it seems like such a rich way of expressing yourself. I like how your T is trying to find out what (or who) the feelings you are having remind you of. That's how my T works too, and I can relate to the frustration of not knowing. Lately I've been expressing fear to my individual T that maybe the couples T is trying to hurry us through therapy, that I won't be heard, etc. But I can't tie it back to anything except my former T. But I can tie that back to my mom and dad...but I can't see how that's useful. This therapy seems to be such an exercise in stops and starts, going down one road for a while, then backtracking and going down a completely different road...then sitting in a pitstop for a while to catch my breath. It is exhausting and confusing sometimes, isn't it.
I am SO sorry to hear of your panic attack experience! I've had them before but nothing that serious. Yikes. I'm glad you are doing okay now.
Also glad to hear your T is considering that maybe it could have been brought on by going too fast. I am still trying to digest his statement about truth being like water off a duck's back...it's one of those things that sounds REALLY important like I need to get that but, well...it's not getting through yet. Kind of like the analogy says.
Here's hoping you come upon a patch of cool water, soft sand, and whatever is soothing to give your feet a break from that broken glass and hot coals.
Peace,
SG
Oh, wow, can I EVER relate to what you said. In fact I think the reason I'm reclusive is because I'm so sensitive to what people say and do. If I stay properly hidden, then I won't get hurt, right? But then it gets lonely so I poke my head out of my shell and try to live a little...I think my life has been a series of venturing out a little more each time, and having to retreat when I get stepped on, bumped, kicked, (in my case sometimes just looked at in the wrong way), etc. It has been SLOW GOING. And it is immensely frustrating to see others who seem to bear up under the same circumstances apparently without the need for retreat, who don't seem nearly as affected by them. Sometimes I wish I could just plug a USB port into the base of my brain and download a whole new and different "operating system" as it were.
In fact when I first started therapy I repeatedly asked for hypnosis, thinking that was the only way to get to this deeper underlying stuff. Ugh. I'm sorry you lost the momentum working with your T through the book you made. I hope it picks back up at some point...it seems like such a rich way of expressing yourself. I like how your T is trying to find out what (or who) the feelings you are having remind you of. That's how my T works too, and I can relate to the frustration of not knowing. Lately I've been expressing fear to my individual T that maybe the couples T is trying to hurry us through therapy, that I won't be heard, etc. But I can't tie it back to anything except my former T. But I can tie that back to my mom and dad...but I can't see how that's useful. This therapy seems to be such an exercise in stops and starts, going down one road for a while, then backtracking and going down a completely different road...then sitting in a pitstop for a while to catch my breath. It is exhausting and confusing sometimes, isn't it.
I am SO sorry to hear of your panic attack experience! I've had them before but nothing that serious. Yikes. I'm glad you are doing okay now.
Also glad to hear your T is considering that maybe it could have been brought on by going too fast. I am still trying to digest his statement about truth being like water off a duck's back...it's one of those things that sounds REALLY important like I need to get that but, well...it's not getting through yet. Kind of like the analogy says. Here's hoping you come upon a patch of cool water, soft sand, and whatever is soothing to give your feet a break from that broken glass and hot coals.
Peace,
SG
Monte ouch ouch ouch! And that’s not just for the burnt and bleeding feet. You’ve been going through a really hard time, and it sounds like there’s not been much respite for you in any of it. I’m so sorry about the panic attack - I knew they could have bad physical effects, but didn’t realize they could get so bad that they affect the heart like that. Wow, to have a panic attack last for hours, that must have been horrendous.
I guess it’s affected your T too, in that of course he wouldn’t want to push you to do anything that would bring on even more overwhelming anxiety. It’s sod’s law that you seem at the point of really wanting to forge ahead with your healing, are becoming more prepared to face all the denial and withholding of what you need in order to grow, and at this precise time your T seems to be sending back off messages. (He isn’t of course, you’ve explained that really well.)
I guess I’m trying to say that I do understand what you’re going through (to a point) and that even though you might have the greater overall picture of what it’s all about - your T’s explanations, the emails, the way you know that he isn’t after all going to fulfil your emotional needs - actually dealing with all that emotionally is a truly horrible thing to have to do. My own sense of it is that it’s unbearable - but ultimately has to be borne.
Which is exactly what you’re saying in your post. I admire your courage in keeping on going, and want to give you lots of support on the way - even if it’s only to commiserate :sad:
I hope you can find the strength to hang in there. Keep on practising your termination speeches, at the least it’s a comfort to know that you have some control over all this pain (though the value in thinking about terminating is just that, allows you to think about it without having to act on it.) And if you can, keep posting here about how it’s all making you feel - this place is the next best thing to having a (good) T.
((((( Monte )))))
LL
I guess it’s affected your T too, in that of course he wouldn’t want to push you to do anything that would bring on even more overwhelming anxiety. It’s sod’s law that you seem at the point of really wanting to forge ahead with your healing, are becoming more prepared to face all the denial and withholding of what you need in order to grow, and at this precise time your T seems to be sending back off messages. (He isn’t of course, you’ve explained that really well.)
I guess I’m trying to say that I do understand what you’re going through (to a point) and that even though you might have the greater overall picture of what it’s all about - your T’s explanations, the emails, the way you know that he isn’t after all going to fulfil your emotional needs - actually dealing with all that emotionally is a truly horrible thing to have to do. My own sense of it is that it’s unbearable - but ultimately has to be borne.
Which is exactly what you’re saying in your post. I admire your courage in keeping on going, and want to give you lots of support on the way - even if it’s only to commiserate :sad:
I hope you can find the strength to hang in there. Keep on practising your termination speeches, at the least it’s a comfort to know that you have some control over all this pain (though the value in thinking about terminating is just that, allows you to think about it without having to act on it.) And if you can, keep posting here about how it’s all making you feel - this place is the next best thing to having a (good) T.
((((( Monte )))))
LL
Monte,
I'm starting to wonder if there aren't quite a few of us that are rather reclusive in the real world. One of the chapters in the book my T has me reading says that people with abandonment/abuse/trust issues oftentimes don't seek out relationships because they don't see them as being 'safe' places to be. Of course we're over-sensitive to people--we've had to be in order to avoid more abuse/abandonment etc. I also think it's so polite of you to classify all of us as normal, everyday people.
So nice of you. Thanks!
So sorry things didn't continue like they were in the beginning. Darn those expectations, doubt, fears suspicions, and yes, the ever-present pain we face in our relationships with our Ts. I hope somehow you will find the desire/courage/strength to pick up that book and try again.
This is where YOU have to pick up and get things going again. You did this once before, right? Tell him how his backing off has made you feel so you don't get even more distance and fear between you and progress. He doesn't know how you feel about what he's doing unless you tell him.
That last statement is powerful. Those of us with attachment issues seem to pursue 'fantasies' rather than face and accept the truth, and yes, until we accept the cold hard reality of our pasts and grieve our losses and accept that what is lost is truly lost and that no one can ever go back and fix our hurts or fill our needs, we are truly living a life of fear and frustration and pain. It's a very bitter pill to swallow, and I find myself choking on it constantly, unwilling to swallow it because I keep clinging to the hope that somehow my T can fix things, somehow she can make things better, she can give me the love I so desperately need. Your T is right. It's all fantasy. But one can't deny the reality of the pain that fantasy creates.
I'm sorry you're struggling with this. It's so hard when something consumes your life and you wish you could just have some resolution, some peace, some freedom from the pain and anguish. I feel for you, Monte. Hang in there. It's good to have you back here posting again. Hoping the time passes quickly 'til you see your T again.
(((Monte)))
MTF
quote:I am relatively reclusive in the real world as I'm way too over-sensitive to people, in terms of both input AND output. Being here is a good learning experience.
I'm starting to wonder if there aren't quite a few of us that are rather reclusive in the real world. One of the chapters in the book my T has me reading says that people with abandonment/abuse/trust issues oftentimes don't seek out relationships because they don't see them as being 'safe' places to be. Of course we're over-sensitive to people--we've had to be in order to avoid more abuse/abandonment etc. I also think it's so polite of you to classify all of us as normal, everyday people.
So nice of you. Thanks!quote:It seemed to be working and T was moving with me in the direction I was wanting to go in, but somehow the process got derailed. By me. By my frustration at my inability to ‘feel’ and my Ts ‘failure’ to meet me halfway in this.( I put failure in inverted commas because he has failed at nothing in reality…I just expect so much.) Anyway, momentum was lost. Doubts, fears, suspicions…and the ever-present pain that arises from the reality of the therapy relationship.
So sorry things didn't continue like they were in the beginning. Darn those expectations, doubt, fears suspicions, and yes, the ever-present pain we face in our relationships with our Ts. I hope somehow you will find the desire/courage/strength to pick up that book and try again.quote:Since then, things have been ‘off’. He has backed off from focusing on emotions and stuff. His backing off has lead me down the path of ‘Oh he doesn’t want to know...it’s too messy…he is going to pull the plug on this…I am ridiculous, this is all ridiculous etc etc.’ My main focus has now returned to fear of his rejection, abandonment
This is where YOU have to pick up and get things going again. You did this once before, right? Tell him how his backing off has made you feel so you don't get even more distance and fear between you and progress. He doesn't know how you feel about what he's doing unless you tell him.
quote:He also said I have spent many years with him manufacturing a lifelong ‘filler’ (of needs) and I am only now recognizing it has not worked and he cannot be that and I am frightened. Said also that the act of counseling is not the healing, it is the process that enables the exploration and discovery that leads to healing. His final words – with regard to my statement that nothing about this relationship feels real were, ‘Counseling is real, words are real, God is real, I am real, love is real…but while you are pursuing fantasies, truth is like water off a ducks back and you will stay supremely frustrated and fearful.’
That last statement is powerful. Those of us with attachment issues seem to pursue 'fantasies' rather than face and accept the truth, and yes, until we accept the cold hard reality of our pasts and grieve our losses and accept that what is lost is truly lost and that no one can ever go back and fix our hurts or fill our needs, we are truly living a life of fear and frustration and pain. It's a very bitter pill to swallow, and I find myself choking on it constantly, unwilling to swallow it because I keep clinging to the hope that somehow my T can fix things, somehow she can make things better, she can give me the love I so desperately need. Your T is right. It's all fantasy.
But one can't deny the reality of the pain that fantasy creates.quote:then other days I get smart and rational and see the sense in where he is leading me. It is like walking through broken glass and hot coals. My feet hurt.
I'm sorry you're struggling with this. It's so hard when something consumes your life and you wish you could just have some resolution, some peace, some freedom from the pain and anguish. I feel for you, Monte. Hang in there. It's good to have you back here posting again.
Hoping the time passes quickly 'til you see your T again.(((Monte)))
MTF
Hi Monte, First I'd like to say that I am really glad to see you back here posting about your therapy or about anything. I've always found great insight in your posts and many of them resonated with me. I'm very sorry you had to experience a panic attack of such magnitude that you ended up in the hospital. I've suffered with panic attacks for years but none landed me in the ER, thankfully. I also have severe anxiety that ebbs and flows. After about the first 9 months of therapy with my T and as I began to open up and trust him more and to find myself experiencing the promise of safety the anxiety just mysteriously disappeared. I believe it was being heard and accepted for who and what I was that was very healing to me and the fact that I finally finally had someone who was a wiser, stronger other (I thought) to help me allowed me to release the anxiety.
I don't know if I have any right to chime in on this thread, considering what happened with my T and how things are right now between us but much of what you wrote that you do I would do also with my T. I think you stopped working with your book because you were just feeling too close to him and it was feeling too intimate and yet some part of you knows he can only meet so much of what you need and the rest would have to be grieved that stopped you in your tracks. It could be (and I may be wrong here) that you were getting those "danger" signals from your amygdala telling you to run because getting close to someone could hurt you in some way. I would do this to my T and much of the recent dancing I did before the abrupt termination was me testing him, distancing myself out of fear and trying to control the revelation of trauma I experienced as a teen that I had never revealed to him. I knew I was getting close to telling him, and I wanted to tell him but I was scared and so I perhaps pushed him away. Unfortunately, my T was not so wise or persistent or confident as yours and he saw it as his own failure to "cure" my trauma or my attachment injury and instead of sticking with me and talking it over, as your T is doing, my T abandoned me. In retrospect, I wish I could have clearly identified what was causing me to back away at times and why I was testing him before talking about the last bunch of stuff that needed to be looked at.
I think the most important thing is to keep the lines of communication open and as honest as possible. I think your T is smart and he understands what you are doing and why, probably because he has experience with this and is secure in his ability to help you with it in the proper way.
I'm sorry for your sore feet ((((Monte)))) and I hope I have not said anything to upset or trigger you. I hesitate to post anywhere these days because I don't want to upset anyone and I'm seeing things from a really dark place these days.
I hope it gets better for you and I'm glad to see you back.
Hug
TN
I don't know if I have any right to chime in on this thread, considering what happened with my T and how things are right now between us but much of what you wrote that you do I would do also with my T. I think you stopped working with your book because you were just feeling too close to him and it was feeling too intimate and yet some part of you knows he can only meet so much of what you need and the rest would have to be grieved that stopped you in your tracks. It could be (and I may be wrong here) that you were getting those "danger" signals from your amygdala telling you to run because getting close to someone could hurt you in some way. I would do this to my T and much of the recent dancing I did before the abrupt termination was me testing him, distancing myself out of fear and trying to control the revelation of trauma I experienced as a teen that I had never revealed to him. I knew I was getting close to telling him, and I wanted to tell him but I was scared and so I perhaps pushed him away. Unfortunately, my T was not so wise or persistent or confident as yours and he saw it as his own failure to "cure" my trauma or my attachment injury and instead of sticking with me and talking it over, as your T is doing, my T abandoned me. In retrospect, I wish I could have clearly identified what was causing me to back away at times and why I was testing him before talking about the last bunch of stuff that needed to be looked at.
I think the most important thing is to keep the lines of communication open and as honest as possible. I think your T is smart and he understands what you are doing and why, probably because he has experience with this and is secure in his ability to help you with it in the proper way.
I'm sorry for your sore feet ((((Monte)))) and I hope I have not said anything to upset or trigger you. I hesitate to post anywhere these days because I don't want to upset anyone and I'm seeing things from a really dark place these days.
I hope it gets better for you and I'm glad to see you back.
Hug
TN
‘Counseling is real, words are real, God is real, I am real, love is real…but while you are pursuing fantasies, truth is like water off a ducks back and you will stay supremely frustrated and fearful.’
monte, i gotta say, i think you have one hell of a good therapist. the fact that he is committed to getting you where you need to be, i know it is as infuriating as HELL, but, wow, from what little i know, you have a great t. tough, but that is what is needed for so many of us, me anyway. the reality.
i know this is really hard on you, but i would just encourage you to feel strong that he truly has your best interests at heart, and i would give my eye teeth for a t that committed....and capable.
hang on, my friend!! jill
and, this reclusive bit?? i am all or nothing, one day i will probably...and i thought of it just this week, delete everything i have ever written. and actually, i already would have if i would have found an easy way to do it in one fell swoop, but individually, drove me nuts. too impatient. i seem 'outgoing' on this, but i am a turtle with all limbs and head tucked in in real life!! now, where is that insta-delete button?? jill
monte, i gotta say, i think you have one hell of a good therapist. the fact that he is committed to getting you where you need to be, i know it is as infuriating as HELL, but, wow, from what little i know, you have a great t. tough, but that is what is needed for so many of us, me anyway. the reality.
i know this is really hard on you, but i would just encourage you to feel strong that he truly has your best interests at heart, and i would give my eye teeth for a t that committed....and capable.
hang on, my friend!! jill
and, this reclusive bit?? i am all or nothing, one day i will probably...and i thought of it just this week, delete everything i have ever written. and actually, i already would have if i would have found an easy way to do it in one fell swoop, but individually, drove me nuts. too impatient. i seem 'outgoing' on this, but i am a turtle with all limbs and head tucked in in real life!! now, where is that insta-delete button?? jill
Monte,
Thinking today is the day you see your T after your 4 week break. Best of luck for a good session and some progress!
MTF
Thinking today is the day you see your T after your 4 week break. Best of luck for a good session and some progress!
MTF
Monte...just sending good wishes your way. I hope your session goes as well as can be expected after a long break...take care..
BB
BB
More good wishes being sent your way! I hope your session is a good one.
Aw Monte
I can so resonate with your angst and fear...I think we all can. It is such a difficult process and one that is always made so much worse by breaks that disrupt your flow, confidence and determination. I secretly hope that you do manage to go today, if only to tell your Tour T how you feel...you of course must do as seems right for you dear monte.
Thoughts and hug,
starfish
I can so resonate with your angst and fear...I think we all can. It is such a difficult process and one that is always made so much worse by breaks that disrupt your flow, confidence and determination. I secretly hope that you do manage to go today, if only to tell your Tour T how you feel...you of course must do as seems right for you dear monte.
Thoughts and hug,
starfish
Monte
Thoughts for you and how you must be feeling...a real conflict of emotions I imagine. Take care of yourself right now, keep strong ((((monte))))
starfish
Thoughts for you and how you must be feeling...a real conflict of emotions I imagine. Take care of yourself right now, keep strong ((((monte))))
starfish
Oh Monte - terminated? Just like that? I so hope you are ok. Please post when you feel stronger, let us know how you are, what you are doing.
Sending you lots of good wishes and thoughts
LL
Sending you lots of good wishes and thoughts
LL
Monte
I don't know what to say, have read and re-read your post and find myself filled with a mix of sadness and questions, but also a sense of determination and empowerment from you....that same empowerment you yourself talked of seeing in DF not so very long ago maybe??
I hope that the reality of what has happened doesn't hit too hard, no matter how sure you are of you having done the right thing, the feelings bit often catch up a bit later don't they?? Like you say, it feels like the right thing to have done, but that doesn't stop it hurting. So I am glad you have your H there to comfort you when you need that..no matter how inept he may be at 'getting it' exactly, it sounds like he cares for you and loves you, so that is the most important thing.
Monte take care, rest, reflect in all your strengths....eat all that chocolate and maybe buy more. Maybe in time you will contact him as you said, if only to explain a little more of how you felt and enable a good closure. For now though, just look after you,
starfish
I don't know what to say, have read and re-read your post and find myself filled with a mix of sadness and questions, but also a sense of determination and empowerment from you....that same empowerment you yourself talked of seeing in DF not so very long ago maybe??
I hope that the reality of what has happened doesn't hit too hard, no matter how sure you are of you having done the right thing, the feelings bit often catch up a bit later don't they?? Like you say, it feels like the right thing to have done, but that doesn't stop it hurting. So I am glad you have your H there to comfort you when you need that..no matter how inept he may be at 'getting it' exactly, it sounds like he cares for you and loves you, so that is the most important thing.
Monte take care, rest, reflect in all your strengths....eat all that chocolate and maybe buy more. Maybe in time you will contact him as you said, if only to explain a little more of how you felt and enable a good closure. For now though, just look after you,
starfish
Monte- I am so sorry. I know (or suspect) how completely unspeakable and even most of the time unfeelable this grief is. And what is it...I have to say that all of the explanations my T has given me, and that I've read elsewhere that say, it is about old unresolved grief, from childhood make sense though I do not fully understand...but for me it doesn't end there. There is something more to it, I sense deeply-that I can't put my finger on. I have from day one felt and resonated very much with everything you have shared with us. And learned a lot. But now, the thing in your post that resonated the most with me, was this:
I suspect that for some reason, for you and for me, and many others- there is something about this relationship that really does render us somewhat powerless, in some sense, and that is where there becomes to be a very big problem... Because we can walk away from this therapist, but we can't walk away from the desire to be loved by them in a non-therapisty way, and it is such overpowering emotion that we know deep down it will take the reins again and control our emotions at one point, and we will make a decision to go back. For me, not doing that (going back) would require a resolve that I quite simply, do not possess. So I remain in his power, somewhat of a dependent on him, and suffering because of this. My goal, is to get to the point where I can walk away without any bitterness, and with gratefulness, and not look back...but also not be ashamed to go back should I somehow need to for some reason, as well. But we are somewhat stuck, because, how much of reaching that point is dependent on the therapist's gifts to help you to reach that point? What if our therapist isn't equipped professionally, spiritually and personally to help us reach this goal? Is there any way to find out for sure if our therapist IS equipped? Or should we muddle through with the therapist we have, just as we had to do with our parents, thinking, "this is the therapist I have got, and I will get to the point I can get to with him." I think we need to ask, does this person have anything left to teach me? But, with the terrible attachemtn, it becomes impossible to use our emotions in helping to make this decision, because they are all skewed around. Unfortunately, IMO, it is very difficult to make a good decision using ONLY the rational brain. So it becomes a bit of a bind. (More than a bit, in fact. At this point, I for one, tend to think "dear therapist, please, enlighten me." Yet, they are hell-bent on never hinting even on what they think about our situation. Anyone ever had a therapist say: "Gee, I do not believe I am equipped to help you anymore..." Or the opposite: " I know you are confused, but if you will just stick with me, I do believe I can help you."
Even AG with her T took many years to reach this point, and what an investment to make when we are unsure. Keep on praying Mont...I am completely understanding, of your situation of your husband. Yes he is kind, yet, he does not "get it." That may be, where a lot of the hurt is really, deeply residing? Just a thought.
Mont, I hope this is ok. Sending much of thoughts and prayers and hugs. I am so sorry for the turmoil and pain, the ups and the downs. It will end one day, Monte, and you will reach a place of peace...yet, I am sad to admit even to myself, there is probably less of control over "making" that happen, than we can know. Please keep us posted, Monte. Ultimately it is in connecting, that we will find the healing, I believe that.
Love, hugs,
BB
quote:Good grief...where does it end?
I suspect that for some reason, for you and for me, and many others- there is something about this relationship that really does render us somewhat powerless, in some sense, and that is where there becomes to be a very big problem... Because we can walk away from this therapist, but we can't walk away from the desire to be loved by them in a non-therapisty way, and it is such overpowering emotion that we know deep down it will take the reins again and control our emotions at one point, and we will make a decision to go back. For me, not doing that (going back) would require a resolve that I quite simply, do not possess. So I remain in his power, somewhat of a dependent on him, and suffering because of this. My goal, is to get to the point where I can walk away without any bitterness, and with gratefulness, and not look back...but also not be ashamed to go back should I somehow need to for some reason, as well. But we are somewhat stuck, because, how much of reaching that point is dependent on the therapist's gifts to help you to reach that point? What if our therapist isn't equipped professionally, spiritually and personally to help us reach this goal? Is there any way to find out for sure if our therapist IS equipped? Or should we muddle through with the therapist we have, just as we had to do with our parents, thinking, "this is the therapist I have got, and I will get to the point I can get to with him." I think we need to ask, does this person have anything left to teach me? But, with the terrible attachemtn, it becomes impossible to use our emotions in helping to make this decision, because they are all skewed around. Unfortunately, IMO, it is very difficult to make a good decision using ONLY the rational brain. So it becomes a bit of a bind. (More than a bit, in fact. At this point, I for one, tend to think "dear therapist, please, enlighten me." Yet, they are hell-bent on never hinting even on what they think about our situation. Anyone ever had a therapist say: "Gee, I do not believe I am equipped to help you anymore..." Or the opposite: " I know you are confused, but if you will just stick with me, I do believe I can help you."
Even AG with her T took many years to reach this point, and what an investment to make when we are unsure. Keep on praying Mont...I am completely understanding, of your situation of your husband. Yes he is kind, yet, he does not "get it." That may be, where a lot of the hurt is really, deeply residing? Just a thought.
Mont, I hope this is ok. Sending much of thoughts and prayers and hugs. I am so sorry for the turmoil and pain, the ups and the downs. It will end one day, Monte, and you will reach a place of peace...yet, I am sad to admit even to myself, there is probably less of control over "making" that happen, than we can know.
Please keep us posted, Monte. Ultimately it is in connecting, that we will find the healing, I believe that. Love, hugs,
BB
Monte...
i`m kind of speachless. I know i havent get to "know" you in here as so meny others here in forum has, yet i wanted to express both my sympathy with you and tell you that you seem to be a truly warm, reflected, strong, honest and brave soul. Your poster was so beautifully written and moving. I think (maybe because i dont know your history with your T) this termination shocked me. Yet i understand your reasons (i think some of them at least) for taking this step. But most important you seem to be very clear about all this- and you said it felt "right" and Monte- gosh- how BRAVE of you to "act upon" that sense and beliefe. Its SO inspiring! (some day- thats my hope as well, that i will manage to ACT upon the feeling of "it the RIGHT" thing to do- whatever the pain it may cost)
So monte. I guess the longing and the grief might last for some time, but propably (it does for me at least) the grief-(process) changes with the time and somehow transeforms into "old grief" and the distance to the past grief gives a perspective i think, that makes one "see" all the "true colors" (not just the black ones, you know?) and in another light-. A Light that- i hope and like to imagine- workes like a Blessing that day we are all going to have to "write down the story of our lifes"
*lots of blessings your way monte* Take care.
i`m kind of speachless. I know i havent get to "know" you in here as so meny others here in forum has, yet i wanted to express both my sympathy with you and tell you that you seem to be a truly warm, reflected, strong, honest and brave soul. Your poster was so beautifully written and moving. I think (maybe because i dont know your history with your T) this termination shocked me. Yet i understand your reasons (i think some of them at least) for taking this step. But most important you seem to be very clear about all this- and you said it felt "right" and Monte- gosh- how BRAVE of you to "act upon" that sense and beliefe. Its SO inspiring! (some day- thats my hope as well, that i will manage to ACT upon the feeling of "it the RIGHT" thing to do- whatever the pain it may cost)
So monte. I guess the longing and the grief might last for some time, but propably (it does for me at least) the grief-(process) changes with the time and somehow transeforms into "old grief" and the distance to the past grief gives a perspective i think, that makes one "see" all the "true colors" (not just the black ones, you know?) and in another light-. A Light that- i hope and like to imagine- workes like a Blessing that day we are all going to have to "write down the story of our lifes"
*lots of blessings your way monte* Take care.
Oh ((((((((Monte)))))))), I don't even know what to say. I'm pretty stunned. I've been going around in my own head lately wondering where this relationship is going to ultimately take me and if I can go there, can walk away when it's time, if I'm going to find the help and healing I need, or if I too have found a therapist that is also 'not enough'. So much confusion surrounds this so-called 'therapeutic relationship' that it can often become more a source of pain and heartache than a source of help and healing. Your description of it feeling like chains is pretty accurate for me, too. quote:But it was too late. Something in me had shifted in this last week. Something had screamed out “ENOUGH!” Enough of these chains...enough of the insane, self-inflicted agony of waiting for someone...ANYONE...to deliver the impossible.
My heart aches for you. I too know this insanity. It is hell.quote:It meant so very much to me to know that...but when it happened, the dreadful truth hit me...he was not enough. It spooked me. I had been waiting all my life for that hug. I had dreamt of crying out my pain and being held and comforted since my early teens. Finally, here was someone safe, willing to meet that need...but in the 'warm-up' it became apparent he was not enough. He is not enough...he is not enough...he is not enough.
I wonder if part of our therapy journey Monte is discovering that no human being will ever be 'enough' for us. I am discovering how much I have always relied on people to fill my needs, and they are always falling short, no matter how wonderful they may be. Only God can make us whole again, only He can heal us completely. It's a hard truth for me to accept most of the time, but as I go through this experience called therapy I am coming to accept it more and more each day. It's so difficult...and I still fight against it.
quote:For now I need time away from the pressure and all-consumingness of the relationship. I need perspective, distance. While I understand the whole attachment/transference thing, I now need to dwell on its impact...chew on it for a bit...and fully appreciate what it means for me in a practical/emotional/spiritual sense. And it's connection to my past.
I sincerely hope you can find some real answers. I've been blessed the past few weeks with a bit of distance in my head from the 'all-consumingness' of the relationship and it has been helpful, although not as much as some REAL distance would be. I can see your thinking in this and hope that it is helpful to you. It is so confusing, but I am starting to see it (the attachment/transference thing) as definitely having a purpose, although is sure brings a lot of pain and anguish with it's presence.
I know you're going to go through some really rough times now. Please post and let us be here to support you!? Please don't isolate yourself or you'll only be worse off for it. Take good care of yourself whatever you do! Many, many hugs to you, Monte...
Love,
Oh dear Monte, I am shocked and so sorry for all of this happening in your life. I know the grief and the sorrow of not having a T in your life that you had such hopes would help you to come to terms with the grief and the old loss and emptiness. I had thought you were making some progress lately with your T and I enjoyed reading your posts about the progression of your relationship.
I often wondered if I had been stronger and walked away from my T how much it would have hurt as opposed to being shoved out the door with little choice. I think part of what hurts me so much was the powerlessness it evoked in me. It was the same feeling that I had when being abused as a child... I had no power to protect myself and even now as an adult... in this unbalanced T/Client relationship I again had NO power. He called the shots and I had to trust he would be kind to me. That didn't happen. In your case you took the power into your own hands and made your own choice. I have to admire you for that. You acknowledged that it was not what you wanted and you took control.
Of course, sometimes after we make decisions, especially ones based on deep emotions, we suffer later on with our choices. I struck out at my T the last time we spoke in the ER and told him I was taking my son out of therapy. I didn't mean that and I regret it now. I was coming from that powerless place. I don't know if I will get a second chance at this. He has sidestepped the question of my son when D has opened the subject... so nothing is settled so far.
Despite how you feel and the disconnect with your T, I was impressed at his questions to you and how he handled himself. At least he thought enough to try to understand you. But that feeling of it not being enough and never enough??? oh do I know that one!! I have said this to my T on ocassion and I don't think he understood what I meant. We want them to be eough to fill that empty space... I told him I was empty and he said eventually that would go away but I don't think it ever does completely... or maybe we have to learn to fill it ourselves. That is the hard part. But that longing for someone to take away the grief and loss is so strong in us. I told my T I wanted to put my head on his shoulder and cry for 100 years because that is how long it would take. He said that is a lot of tears and I said it will drown both of us and he told me he was a very good swimmer... evidently he lied about that.
While I was willing to grieve he was not willing to walk through it with me. And so I'm left stuffing it down for now and the problem is that now there is a ton more grief at his loss. Just another loss to grieve.
Gosh, I don't know if I'm helping or hurting you here. I wish I had some magic words of wisdom to impart to you. Something I could say to lift his burden you are carrying inside of you. But in my own pain I'm not thinking so clearly these days. I just hate seeing any one of my friends on this forum to also be in pain over therapy.
About not feeling the hug... I experienced the same thing. My last hug was the night before my first surgery. I cried when I left him because I could not feel it. I was so numbed out by fear of surgery and fear of his abandonment and fear of our disconnection I could not feel that hug or his arms around me. It makes me so sad because I'll never have that opportunity again... the chance to learn to actually FEEL it again. To be able to be present in the moment without fear and grief.
So Monte, please take care of yourself and be gentle with you. And if you feel up to it let us know how you are doing because we care.
Hugs
TN
I often wondered if I had been stronger and walked away from my T how much it would have hurt as opposed to being shoved out the door with little choice. I think part of what hurts me so much was the powerlessness it evoked in me. It was the same feeling that I had when being abused as a child... I had no power to protect myself and even now as an adult... in this unbalanced T/Client relationship I again had NO power. He called the shots and I had to trust he would be kind to me. That didn't happen. In your case you took the power into your own hands and made your own choice. I have to admire you for that. You acknowledged that it was not what you wanted and you took control.
Of course, sometimes after we make decisions, especially ones based on deep emotions, we suffer later on with our choices. I struck out at my T the last time we spoke in the ER and told him I was taking my son out of therapy. I didn't mean that and I regret it now. I was coming from that powerless place. I don't know if I will get a second chance at this. He has sidestepped the question of my son when D has opened the subject... so nothing is settled so far.
Despite how you feel and the disconnect with your T, I was impressed at his questions to you and how he handled himself. At least he thought enough to try to understand you. But that feeling of it not being enough and never enough??? oh do I know that one!! I have said this to my T on ocassion and I don't think he understood what I meant. We want them to be eough to fill that empty space... I told him I was empty and he said eventually that would go away but I don't think it ever does completely... or maybe we have to learn to fill it ourselves. That is the hard part. But that longing for someone to take away the grief and loss is so strong in us. I told my T I wanted to put my head on his shoulder and cry for 100 years because that is how long it would take. He said that is a lot of tears and I said it will drown both of us and he told me he was a very good swimmer... evidently he lied about that.
While I was willing to grieve he was not willing to walk through it with me. And so I'm left stuffing it down for now and the problem is that now there is a ton more grief at his loss. Just another loss to grieve.
Gosh, I don't know if I'm helping or hurting you here. I wish I had some magic words of wisdom to impart to you. Something I could say to lift his burden you are carrying inside of you. But in my own pain I'm not thinking so clearly these days. I just hate seeing any one of my friends on this forum to also be in pain over therapy.
About not feeling the hug... I experienced the same thing. My last hug was the night before my first surgery. I cried when I left him because I could not feel it. I was so numbed out by fear of surgery and fear of his abandonment and fear of our disconnection I could not feel that hug or his arms around me. It makes me so sad because I'll never have that opportunity again... the chance to learn to actually FEEL it again. To be able to be present in the moment without fear and grief.
So Monte, please take care of yourself and be gentle with you. And if you feel up to it let us know how you are doing because we care.
Hugs
TN
Monte,
I really don't have much to say, I can hear your deep pain and even more strongly your resolution to pursue this path. I pray it brings you some measure of peace. Please come here to talk, you need to not be alone with this.
AG
I really don't have much to say, I can hear your deep pain and even more strongly your resolution to pursue this path. I pray it brings you some measure of peace. Please come here to talk, you need to not be alone with this.
AG
Monte,
I am so sorry that this has been your experience. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been sad. I hope that you will continue to talk here. AG is right, you don't need to be alone in this.
I am so sorry that this has been your experience. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been sad. I hope that you will continue to talk here. AG is right, you don't need to be alone in this.
Monte,
I’m a little loss for words…
It seems like it could be frustrating that he didn’t seem to take you seriously that you really were leaving and you weren’t just going to send him an email after. But after a 14.5 year relationship it must have been shocking to him. Maybe even a defense mechanism? Maybe telling himself that you’ll end up emailing him and it’s not really the end made him feel better?
I think it makes even more sense now why my T tells me all the time that I’m the one doing the work; it’s up to me to change- because no human being can ever really change us. He’ll never be able to reach inside of me because he isn’t me- I’m the only one who can do that. The longing for someone to be enough will always fall short.
I’m sorry, Monte.
I’m a little loss for words…
It seems like it could be frustrating that he didn’t seem to take you seriously that you really were leaving and you weren’t just going to send him an email after. But after a 14.5 year relationship it must have been shocking to him. Maybe even a defense mechanism? Maybe telling himself that you’ll end up emailing him and it’s not really the end made him feel better?
I think it makes even more sense now why my T tells me all the time that I’m the one doing the work; it’s up to me to change- because no human being can ever really change us. He’ll never be able to reach inside of me because he isn’t me- I’m the only one who can do that. The longing for someone to be enough will always fall short.
I’m sorry, Monte.
Monte thank you so much for sharing the reasons for your decision - on the one hand it’s so sad reading about your profound pain, that void at the core, that need from someone to fill it up. On the other hand you’re showing a true sense of knowing what’s right for YOU and being able to act on that knowing - wow that’s SO brave and strong of you, especially walking away from a relationship of such long standing.
It sounds like not being able to feel what you feel (mini-me holding all those feelings inside her) has been the sticking point in your therapy - and maybe that has a lot to do with your T’s approach, and also that you’ve known each other so long that familiarity has gotten in the way? I guess I’m trying to say that if you do go see a new T, maybe that will be the kick start you need to really start healing. Especially as you’ve had what I would call an epiphany - suddenly recognizing that no T, no human, can fill that void. Now comes the pain of loss. I expect you will veer between all sorts of conflicting feeling states from now on, as you say, you have no idea how you will feel about it all the next day, or next week. Just know that you can come here and talk about whatever is going on no matter how inconsistent it might feel.
Whatever you decide, you have all my good wishes, and lots of sympathy and hugs for the feelings you must be going through now.
(((( Monte ))))
LL
It sounds like not being able to feel what you feel (mini-me holding all those feelings inside her) has been the sticking point in your therapy - and maybe that has a lot to do with your T’s approach, and also that you’ve known each other so long that familiarity has gotten in the way? I guess I’m trying to say that if you do go see a new T, maybe that will be the kick start you need to really start healing. Especially as you’ve had what I would call an epiphany - suddenly recognizing that no T, no human, can fill that void. Now comes the pain of loss. I expect you will veer between all sorts of conflicting feeling states from now on, as you say, you have no idea how you will feel about it all the next day, or next week. Just know that you can come here and talk about whatever is going on no matter how inconsistent it might feel.
Whatever you decide, you have all my good wishes, and lots of sympathy and hugs for the feelings you must be going through now.
(((( Monte ))))
LL
quote:This is probably out of line here, but TN…I feel an emphatic NO to the notion of having tro learn to fill our own emptiness and I so hope you’re not offended if I challenge that. We will never learn to fill it ourselves, we are not equipped. We cannot. They cannot. We try and shove all these wrong-shaped, ill-fitting things into ourselves to fill that emptiness…crying with pain as those unmatched edges become raw and bloodied and bruised from forcing an impossible union. The emptiness is there by default and there is only one true fit. More than anything this is what I am learning...I guess that maybe why my response is a little pushy here.
Monte I 'm not offended at all and secretly I know you are right and agree with you. This was just the party line from my T. I truly feel that the emptiness will never be fully filled because we lost that opportunity as children and we cannot go back and fix it and neither can our Ts. I cannot even really be that child in his office. D says that my T had a hard time when I was being child like because he looked at me and saw a grown woman and he could not reconcile the two. But when he spoke softly and appealed to the inner little me it was immensely soothing and healing to me. I'm not sure he realized the power of what he was doing but it worked so well and I tried to tell him this. I think that emptiness is there for good but maybe we don't notice it as much when we are busy working on other things or are either feeling slighly more at peace with ourselves or totally distracted with therapy work.
As for your dreams... I've been having that type of dream where I see my T but he is angry with me and I can't reach him... then I lose him in the dream and then he comes back at the end but scares me. Except one night I had this sweet dream that I was a little girl and was going to bed and there was a kind gentle man there with me tucking me in and then I felt him give me a few kisses on my cheek as I was drifting off to sleep and I understood that it was my T that was tucking me in and kissing me good night and I felt so happy and safe and cared for. Too bad I had to wake up....
I hope you continue to hang in with this...
TN
Hi Monte,
This is a little bit of a late reply…sorry for that. I just wanted to say that I was rather surprised at your T's reaction when you told him that you were leaving. I don't think it matters if you've had these kinds of breaks before - that kind of dismissive reaction to what you were telling him should have been something that he took seriously. If not for the fact that you were saying you were going to leave, he should have looked at it more to find out what you're feeling at these times when you take breaks so that something can change…so that the cycle can be broken. Tell me if I'm totally off base; his reaction just bothered me.
Also…I constantly feel that I am just a bad child of God. Sometimes I try and figure out if I don't believe I'm worthy of a love like His or if I don't try hard enough or whatever. Heck, I can't even pray without berating myself for what I'm praying about. It's a viscous cycle. But the one thing that I have found that I'm able to believe in and try to hold on to is the belief that God is working through my T. I'm not in any Christian or religious type of therapy, but it doesn't matter. I can still privately hold that belief. It's the one thing that I don't care if my T believes or not (I haven't shared this with her yet, though I'm sure she'd be accepting of it, whether she thought the same thing or not). I believe God speaks to me through my T. Not necessarily her words, but her actions and simply her presence. Because I hope and pray every day that when I'm finally able to reconnect with my feelings and myself that I can connect with God. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think it's okay to see the comfort of man, because God is constantly working through us. He will do whatever He needs to get His message across, and man's imperfections will distort those messages, but if we can find the crux of it and hold on to it, it will lead us to Him.
Take my words and do with them what you will…I hope that maybe just a little bit of my rambling can help. I got a bit of a sense of helplessness and hopeless when you (and MTF) write about no human being enough. It's both a humbling and slightly disheartening thing to realize, because humans are right here, visible, tangible, and easier to find. I don't know…maybe I'm just finding lame excuses to seek the comfort of my T in the belief that she's a stepping stone to God, but that's all I've got right now.
Many hugs, Monte.
This is a little bit of a late reply…sorry for that. I just wanted to say that I was rather surprised at your T's reaction when you told him that you were leaving. I don't think it matters if you've had these kinds of breaks before - that kind of dismissive reaction to what you were telling him should have been something that he took seriously. If not for the fact that you were saying you were going to leave, he should have looked at it more to find out what you're feeling at these times when you take breaks so that something can change…so that the cycle can be broken. Tell me if I'm totally off base; his reaction just bothered me.
Also…I constantly feel that I am just a bad child of God. Sometimes I try and figure out if I don't believe I'm worthy of a love like His or if I don't try hard enough or whatever. Heck, I can't even pray without berating myself for what I'm praying about. It's a viscous cycle. But the one thing that I have found that I'm able to believe in and try to hold on to is the belief that God is working through my T. I'm not in any Christian or religious type of therapy, but it doesn't matter. I can still privately hold that belief. It's the one thing that I don't care if my T believes or not (I haven't shared this with her yet, though I'm sure she'd be accepting of it, whether she thought the same thing or not). I believe God speaks to me through my T. Not necessarily her words, but her actions and simply her presence. Because I hope and pray every day that when I'm finally able to reconnect with my feelings and myself that I can connect with God. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I think it's okay to see the comfort of man, because God is constantly working through us. He will do whatever He needs to get His message across, and man's imperfections will distort those messages, but if we can find the crux of it and hold on to it, it will lead us to Him.
Take my words and do with them what you will…I hope that maybe just a little bit of my rambling can help. I got a bit of a sense of helplessness and hopeless when you (and MTF) write about no human being enough. It's both a humbling and slightly disheartening thing to realize, because humans are right here, visible, tangible, and easier to find. I don't know…maybe I'm just finding lame excuses to seek the comfort of my T in the belief that she's a stepping stone to God, but that's all I've got right now.
Many hugs, Monte.
Monte,
"Squashiness" is not a term I'd have thought to give what goes on in our heads because of this stuff, but I TOTALLY understand your need to get away from it. There are times where I wonder if that would do me some good, too. Unfortunately I'm not as strong as you are. I've had almost three weeks away from my T and already I've seen the inside of her house and stalked her outside her office window. 
Imagine what kind of damage I would do if I took a *real* break. I'd hate to have to do that sort of confessing!!!
I'm sure his prayers are with you, and I know how helpful that can be. When I read my T my very first letter way back in March, the really scary one where she ended up tearing up on me, well, the very same weekend she put my name on a list of names in a special 'prayer roll' in our church. She told me that the next session I had with her and also told me that she had never done that for a patient before. I know her care for me in that way really was a blessing, as I felt a lot of peace come over me that weekend and know it was because of the prayer on my behalf.
I wouldn't call that "corny" at all! I'd call it a tender mercy.
AMEN!!!! (except for the part about me maybe still being cute enough!) And thank you for that insight. You just keep reaffirming what I have started to see and believe finally, and it is helpful to read your posts about it again and again in different places all said in different sorts of ways. It's driving it all home! Well, rather , but you know what I mean. 
The sooner I truly 'get it', the better, as you so eloquently said above.
I'm glad you're hanging on and not sinking. I've been worried about you the past few days. I can fully understand and appreciate the break you've felt the need to take, and hopefully you can sort things out and gain some understanding and new insight, etc. on what you need to do next and where you need to go. At least you can hopefully get some of the "squashiness" out of your head! I could sure use some freedom from that myself!! Hugs, and take care!!
quote:I just need a break from the squashiness in my head that comes from the attachment stuff….and it has been hugely squashy this last 12 months.
"Squashiness" is not a term I'd have thought to give what goes on in our heads because of this stuff, but I TOTALLY understand your need to get away from it. There are times where I wonder if that would do me some good, too. Unfortunately I'm not as strong as you are. I've had almost three weeks away from my T and already I've seen the inside of her house and stalked her outside her office window. Imagine what kind of damage I would do if I took a *real* break. I'd hate to have to do that sort of confessing!!!quote:On previous occasions when I have had long breaks then got back in contact with him, he has said he has thought of me and prayed for me at the oddest of times. I know he would have prayed for me the other day and probably still is when the thought arises and I can almost feel that. I wonder if my clarity of thought and awareness of my need for God - and a certain sense of peace - are the result of his prayer. It's a nice thought.
I'm sure his prayers are with you, and I know how helpful that can be. When I read my T my very first letter way back in March, the really scary one where she ended up tearing up on me, well, the very same weekend she put my name on a list of names in a special 'prayer roll' in our church. She told me that the next session I had with her and also told me that she had never done that for a patient before. I know her care for me in that way really was a blessing, as I felt a lot of peace come over me that weekend and know it was because of the prayer on my behalf.
quote:I had a truly corny moment late last night. Was falling asleep in front of tv and having those vague, random, half-dream things you have. I woke up with a start when T entered my dream parade…but very vividly. It was like I was in his office and he was sitting in his chair and he said quietly, ‘I won’t give up on you.’ He has said that before, so I guess it was a bit of memory recall. It was comforting
I wouldn't call that "corny" at all! I'd call it a tender mercy.
quote:They're not lame excuses at all Kashley, because human beings are all those things and there is nothing wrong in seeking and finding comfort in them because they are bearers of God's love. You are exactly right...your T can be a stepping stone to God. We are designed to be in relationship with each other. I guess where I (and MTF perhaps) are coming from is that as grown adults with deep attachment wounds, we are aware that no human can or will fill those very real needs adequately and permanently. We are not cute enough anymore to be adopted out and re-nurtured and re-grown!! (Ok MTF...maybe you are
A fellow human can offer a resting place, moments of comfort, words of wonderful wisdom...but they are not big enough and selfless enough and available enough to fill that gnawing 24/7 hole in your soul. Once you're aware of that hole, it is so hard to ignore...which is just as well, because we ignore it at our own peril. Rather a life time of pain and agonised searching leading to discovery of truth and peace and salvation, than a life-time of bliss followed by the unspeakable horror of damnation.
AMEN!!!! (except for the part about me maybe still being cute enough!
) And thank you for that insight. You just keep reaffirming what I have started to see and believe finally, and it is helpful to read your posts about it again and again in different places all said in different sorts of ways. It's driving it all home! Well, rather , but you know what I mean. The sooner I truly 'get it', the better, as you so eloquently said above.I'm glad you're hanging on and not sinking. I've been worried about you the past few days. I can fully understand and appreciate the break you've felt the need to take, and hopefully you can sort things out and gain some understanding and new insight, etc. on what you need to do next and where you need to go. At least you can hopefully get some of the "squashiness" out of your head!
I could sure use some freedom from that myself!! Hugs, and take care!!
You could still do it...???
eep, I shouldn't have said that, I know, buuuut....
BB
eep, I shouldn't have said that, I know, buuuut....
BB
BB, always brave, said it first. But I agree, you could still, and I think both of you sound wise and mature enought to do that IF that was right for you Monte. Maybe you did let out that anger in walking away, do a bit of what he had been trying to get you to do all along. But he is maybe waiting there for you to go back and help you learn a bit more yet.....?
Just tell me if this is way off the mark....just a few thoughts..
starfish
Just tell me if this is way off the mark....just a few thoughts..
starfish
hey Sarah you are safe here with us (((((Sarah))))) All of us here will look after you all xxxx
Hev
Hev
Sarah, yes I did promise that nobody would come and get you. This is a safe place with people who will look after each other, so nothing bad will happen to you. Thank you for being able to tell us how you feel, that is important. x
monte, I so get your thoughts about the bible study group. It's like he has given you a carrot really...an indication that you could meeyt with him on 'normal' terms, as an equal almost outside of the therapeutic relationship. I wonder if her really realised the impact that those words would have...especially the 'I would love you to ...' bit. I guess I can understand the dual relationships bit too...no matter how good that sounds, the realities are never as rosy are they?
I get too your concerns about the inevitable parting at the end of therapy ....I have always said I want to be the one to leave first for that very reason. Monte you are writing very real and understandable fears...I really want to tell you to discuss them with him, but fear that will make it sound such a simple thing to do, when I know in reality it's not. But it sounds like you have such a good connection together and you speak of him with such respect....it would seem such a shame to walk away from that without some sort of completion or closure. Monte, dear monte....could you just try???.....hmmmm a little testing the water e-mail to him maybe??? .... Starfish now scarpers back into the water and waits
starfish
monte, I so get your thoughts about the bible study group. It's like he has given you a carrot really...an indication that you could meeyt with him on 'normal' terms, as an equal almost outside of the therapeutic relationship. I wonder if her really realised the impact that those words would have...especially the 'I would love you to ...' bit. I guess I can understand the dual relationships bit too...no matter how good that sounds, the realities are never as rosy are they?
I get too your concerns about the inevitable parting at the end of therapy ....I have always said I want to be the one to leave first for that very reason. Monte you are writing very real and understandable fears...I really want to tell you to discuss them with him, but fear that will make it sound such a simple thing to do, when I know in reality it's not. But it sounds like you have such a good connection together and you speak of him with such respect....it would seem such a shame to walk away from that without some sort of completion or closure. Monte, dear monte....could you just try???.....hmmmm a little testing the water e-mail to him maybe??? .... Starfish now scarpers back into the water and waits
starfish
Oh yes, the steak knives. Or rather, the daggers that never quit stabbing at us no matter how much we want to avoid them and the pain they bring us.
You and I are sort of in the same boat here. You know my T offered the post-therapy lunch dates, but that is NOT what I want from her. I don't want to spend 45 minutes with her every few months while we stuff our faces with food and attempt a bit of conversation. What will happen when she retires? NO!! I want more than that. I want to have her in my life for the rest of her life.
Yep. That pretty well sums it up for me, too. And yes, you DO need to talk to him about this, you are right about that. This is the stuff that stands in our way, Monte. It keeps us 'stuck' because we want so much from them, fear losing them, and yes--everything else remains secondary. Our relationship with them, and holding on to that relationship, takes precedence over everything else. I should know.
I'm going to 'try' to talk to my T about this on Wednesday, on top of the other stuff. Ugh. Try would be the key word here. I'll be lucky if I can utter a single word. It does take a lot of courage to bring this stuff out in the open, but I'm learning that until I do I just live in torment from these things and nothing gets resolved--and that is really no way to live, is it?
You and I are sort of in the same boat here. You know my T offered the post-therapy lunch dates, but that is NOT what I want from her. I don't want to spend 45 minutes with her every few months while we stuff our faces with food and attempt a bit of conversation. What will happen when she retires? NO!! I want more than that. I want to have her in my life for the rest of her life.
quote:I just want to always know him. I don't want to live in his pocket...I just want him to be a person that is always 'there'. I feel such an intense tie to him, all those years, all the stuff. He is at the same time ordinary yet huge, because of the sort of person he is. Just the sort of person you can respect and trust and like...I haven't known many people like that.
Yep. That pretty well sums it up for me, too. And yes, you DO need to talk to him about this, you are right about that. This is the stuff that stands in our way, Monte. It keeps us 'stuck' because we want so much from them, fear losing them, and yes--everything else remains secondary. Our relationship with them, and holding on to that relationship, takes precedence over everything else. I should know.
I'm going to 'try' to talk to my T about this on Wednesday, on top of the other stuff. Ugh. Try would be the key word here. I'll be lucky if I can utter a single word.
It does take a lot of courage to bring this stuff out in the open, but I'm learning that until I do I just live in torment from these things and nothing gets resolved--and that is really no way to live, is it?
I just wanted to say to Sarah...how are you honey? I know that you are welcome to write anywhere on this forum you want to sweetie...it makes us happy to see you!Don't worry about that big jerk who scared you...if he ever showed up he would get it from us, big time...nobody here would let him get away with anything! But I don't think he's coming back.
Monte, wow, your post is very well put...I know it seems probably like not making sense, but your fears and motivations here are so clear...and I feel the same way. I just really relate to everything you say, and I wish I could put it down like you can. I will just say it-At this point, I would rather hang onto the relationship than heal. Am I proud of that fact, no, but at the same time, it is such a visceral reaction...there isn't too much I can do about it to change it...and it stops me up too. I tend to be hard on myself for this, think I am "bad" and etc. I've only been in therapy for around a year and a half...so I can't imagine how hard it would be to root that once I'm in longer. Maybe it shouldn't be rooted yet. It's part of why we need healing in the first place. It needs to be looked at and felt. Without shame, preferable. I too am headed for a break. I too have felt somewhat more content with having a reson to have some kind of connection, than to get better and have no reason to see my T anymore. I always get the feeling that I am going to just up and cut it off one day, and that I will never be the same again after that, I will just wilt away for the rest of my life...(dramatic sounding, I know, but I really sense this as a very real danger) So, I guess all I'm saying, is that if your situation is similar to mine than I wouldn't do anything drastic...you are probably doing what you need to do to survive. the hardest part in all of this for me is not being able to speak the reality of all of this to him, face to face, and get his help to deal with it. But, just think, if you go ahead and do the healing work, and get better...well, you CAN still see your T. This is what I want to talk about with mine. The idea that if I overcome my depression and so on, can I still see him? What if you don't WANT to anymore, if you are successful in healing through therapy you say? That's where I get back onto the merry-go-round, Monte.
I know the email agony, Monte... I do not really understand why I feel such a desperate need to connect with him that way, and I tried experimenting with a sort of pretend anger at his lack of response a couple of times, but it didn't feel like "real" anger. Just a game. My T usually responds to my emails, but sometimes he ignores them. That usually just makes me really, really obsessive, not angry. So, can I say that I am a bit jealous that at least you can feel some kind of anger...I think that is really positive, and worth exploring and thinking about.
What do you think? I wonder why it is not an option to go and talk all of this through with him? I am just throwing this out there not to pressure you in any way, but just to see, what is it that is behind that inability to just email T and say "I'd like to talk about all of my feelings surrounding what has happened." Because I relate to it so completely...so your thoughts all here, are so much appreciated, Mont..
As far as wanting the connection to remain, needing it to remain...could you ask, what is his policy on reconnecting in a church setting after therapy ends? Not because I (neccessarily) think that should happen, or shouldn't, but just because I think such a discussion might open up a lot of things for you. Yeah, I know Mont...try talking, but I can't, well, I don't know what to do about that. So I'm just blabbing here, and hoping some of it might be helpful, and if not that you will forgive me, kind soul that you are...
"Beebs"
Monte, wow, your post is very well put...I know it seems probably like not making sense, but your fears and motivations here are so clear...and I feel the same way. I just really relate to everything you say, and I wish I could put it down like you can. I will just say it-At this point, I would rather hang onto the relationship than heal.
Am I proud of that fact, no, but at the same time, it is such a visceral reaction...there isn't too much I can do about it to change it...and it stops me up too. I tend to be hard on myself for this, think I am "bad" and etc. I've only been in therapy for around a year and a half...so I can't imagine how hard it would be to root that once I'm in longer. Maybe it shouldn't be rooted yet. It's part of why we need healing in the first place. It needs to be looked at and felt. Without shame, preferable. I too am headed for a break. I too have felt somewhat more content with having a reson to have some kind of connection, than to get better and have no reason to see my T anymore. I always get the feeling that I am going to just up and cut it off one day, and that I will never be the same again after that, I will just wilt away for the rest of my life...(dramatic sounding, I know, but I really sense this as a very real danger) So, I guess all I'm saying, is that if your situation is similar to mine than I wouldn't do anything drastic...you are probably doing what you need to do to survive. the hardest part in all of this for me is not being able to speak the reality of all of this to him, face to face, and get his help to deal with it. But, just think, if you go ahead and do the healing work, and get better...well, you CAN still see your T. This is what I want to talk about with mine. The idea that if I overcome my depression and so on, can I still see him? What if you don't WANT to anymore, if you are successful in healing through therapy you say? That's where I get back onto the merry-go-round, Monte. I know the email agony, Monte... I do not really understand why I feel such a desperate need to connect with him that way, and I tried experimenting with a sort of pretend anger at his lack of response a couple of times, but it didn't feel like "real" anger. Just a game. My T usually responds to my emails, but sometimes he ignores them. That usually just makes me really, really obsessive, not angry. So, can I say that I am a bit jealous that at least you can feel some kind of anger...I think that is really positive, and worth exploring and thinking about.
What do you think? I wonder why it is not an option to go and talk all of this through with him? I am just throwing this out there not to pressure you in any way, but just to see, what is it that is behind that inability to just email T and say "I'd like to talk about all of my feelings surrounding what has happened." Because I relate to it so completely...so your thoughts all here, are so much appreciated, Mont..
As far as wanting the connection to remain, needing it to remain...could you ask, what is his policy on reconnecting in a church setting after therapy ends? Not because I (neccessarily) think that should happen, or shouldn't, but just because I think such a discussion might open up a lot of things for you. Yeah, I know Mont...try talking, but I can't, well, I don't know what to do about that. So I'm just blabbing here, and hoping some of it might be helpful, and if not that you will forgive me, kind soul that you are...
"Beebs"
DF
No need to apologise for anything, we are here to support you all. Please don't worry any more,
starfish
No need to apologise for anything, we are here to support you all. Please don't worry any more,
starfish
DF...(Phoebe? sweetie, sorry if I spelled your name wrong) I wanted to say, that we all write on eachother's threads...that's what we do- and it really is ok, love. I know it seems scary, though, I really do get that. I'm sure when Monte sees this, she will agree. Love to you, sweets.
BB
BB
Monte,
I am guessing that he photocopied them to keep in your permanent chart since they were used in the process of therapy. I know every single thing that I've given my T is in my chart. I think that is pretty common although he should have checked with you to make sure it was ok and that you knew that would happen. T has asked me permission before copying something that I brought in, but didn't actually hand over to her.
I am guessing that he photocopied them to keep in your permanent chart since they were used in the process of therapy. I know every single thing that I've given my T is in my chart. I think that is pretty common although he should have checked with you to make sure it was ok and that you knew that would happen. T has asked me permission before copying something that I brought in, but didn't actually hand over to her.
Monte,
Sorry to hear this. I agree with STRM. He should have asked you first if you were okay with it if he needed to photocopy something. I'm sure he wasn't trying to be devious, at least I would certainly hope he wouldn't. I'm sorry this has you feeling nervous.
Rationally though, what would he do with it? Just keep it in your file I would think. I'm sure he has nothing personal to gain by keeping copies of your stuff. What is causing you to feel so nervous?
Hope this isn't worrying you too much and making things harder.
Hugs,
MTF
Sorry to hear this. I agree with STRM. He should have asked you first if you were okay with it if he needed to photocopy something. I'm sure he wasn't trying to be devious, at least I would certainly hope he wouldn't. I'm sorry this has you feeling nervous.
Rationally though, what would he do with it? Just keep it in your file I would think. I'm sure he has nothing personal to gain by keeping copies of your stuff. What is causing you to feel so nervous?
Hope this isn't worrying you too much and making things harder.
Hugs,
MTF
Monte
It is so good that you emailed your T - I know I don't know you, but I want to give you a big hug. Therapy is so hard sometimes.
I only have a few minutes, but I just wanted to say....over the 4 years I have been in therapy, I have done all sorts of paintings, scribbles, little figurine clay models etc to try and express my feelings. I find it liberating and it helps me communicate even when it feels impossible; it helps me try to understand myself how I am feeling. If you can try to do it, you may find the same (although all of us are different).
I hope things get better for you.
It is so good that you emailed your T - I know I don't know you, but I want to give you a big hug. Therapy is so hard sometimes.
I only have a few minutes, but I just wanted to say....over the 4 years I have been in therapy, I have done all sorts of paintings, scribbles, little figurine clay models etc to try and express my feelings. I find it liberating and it helps me communicate even when it feels impossible; it helps me try to understand myself how I am feeling. If you can try to do it, you may find the same (although all of us are different).
I hope things get better for you.
(((((MONTE)))))
Thanks for sharing. I feel honored to be part of your journey. Since you have an established relationship with him, do you think that part of what is bothering you is that you don't feel that space to go to him? Almost like he is too warm and accepting? Does that make sense? Almost too attentive? Like someone begging you to tell them your story and then you back off? But if someone were to ignore you and say fine, don't tell me, I don't care about you and your story, then you might be more compelled to tell?
Like you, I've tried therapy a number of times over the years starting when I was 18 and moving forward but always found excuses to leave. Although unlike you, it wasn't with the same person. All different therapists. At this point in my life, the difference for me is that I am at the point of no return. It's either I do this for me or I kill myself. Killing myself is not an option. So I push through the pain. I return again and again when my instincts and everyone on the board tells me not to. LOL. (Hope I don't wind up getting screwed here.)
I'm actually finding pushing through the pain is key. To feel the intensity of it. To learn that I won't die because of it. That I will still wake up and be here and the birds will be singing and life will be going on as usual, for the most part. And, if the birds aren't singing but it's snowing and miserable out, I am still here. I still survived another day. I can cope. Not well. But I can do it.
I have to be honest that the blurring of the boundaries would be really hard for me. I can only say that now after having been in therapy for a while and realising how much safer the boundaries make me feel. I am always so relieved when I am reminded that this is a professional relationship. It just makes things feel right and secure. I think when the boundaries get blurred, it gets too painful. It brings me into places from the past that were painful, trying to get things I couldn't get from people I couldn't get it from. So, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to try someone else? I don't know if financially that is an option for you. But what could it hurt? And, it might even help. Since you have such large gaps in your therapy anyway, it's not like you would have to explain anything to him. Just a thought.
The sense of familial with him could be exactly what's holding you back. You need to be able to share with him. Intellectually you know you can but emotionally if the relationship FEELS like one you had in the past, that could precisely be the reason you are now finding that you cannot share with him.
On the other hand, what if you made a deal with yourself that you were just going to do it? Whatever it is that you want to share with him and can't, that this is it, you're going to put the pressure on yourself to deliver the goods this time.
((((MONTE)))) I know this is so hard for you. Hang in there.
Liese
Thanks for sharing. I feel honored to be part of your journey. Since you have an established relationship with him, do you think that part of what is bothering you is that you don't feel that space to go to him? Almost like he is too warm and accepting? Does that make sense? Almost too attentive? Like someone begging you to tell them your story and then you back off? But if someone were to ignore you and say fine, don't tell me, I don't care about you and your story, then you might be more compelled to tell?
Like you, I've tried therapy a number of times over the years starting when I was 18 and moving forward but always found excuses to leave. Although unlike you, it wasn't with the same person. All different therapists. At this point in my life, the difference for me is that I am at the point of no return. It's either I do this for me or I kill myself. Killing myself is not an option. So I push through the pain. I return again and again when my instincts and everyone on the board tells me not to. LOL. (Hope I don't wind up getting screwed here.)
I'm actually finding pushing through the pain is key. To feel the intensity of it. To learn that I won't die because of it. That I will still wake up and be here and the birds will be singing and life will be going on as usual, for the most part. And, if the birds aren't singing but it's snowing and miserable out, I am still here. I still survived another day. I can cope. Not well. But I can do it.
I have to be honest that the blurring of the boundaries would be really hard for me. I can only say that now after having been in therapy for a while and realising how much safer the boundaries make me feel. I am always so relieved when I am reminded that this is a professional relationship. It just makes things feel right and secure. I think when the boundaries get blurred, it gets too painful. It brings me into places from the past that were painful, trying to get things I couldn't get from people I couldn't get it from. So, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to try someone else? I don't know if financially that is an option for you. But what could it hurt? And, it might even help. Since you have such large gaps in your therapy anyway, it's not like you would have to explain anything to him. Just a thought.
The sense of familial with him could be exactly what's holding you back. You need to be able to share with him. Intellectually you know you can but emotionally if the relationship FEELS like one you had in the past, that could precisely be the reason you are now finding that you cannot share with him.
On the other hand, what if you made a deal with yourself that you were just going to do it? Whatever it is that you want to share with him and can't, that this is it, you're going to put the pressure on yourself to deliver the goods this time.
((((MONTE)))) I know this is so hard for you. Hang in there.
Liese
((((((monte)))))))
My connection with my T is only at its infancy, but I feel like I relate so much to you and permafrost as well. The need (and fear) for physical grounding, the going blank and inability to emote in person, the fear of losing control, the inability to cry in front of others (I actually can do it with my H hugging me, but it makes me feel angry and sick). I don't know enough about therapy to really advise you, but your T sounds like a lovely person, who truly cares. I have sometimes wondered what it would be like to be invited to my T's church or another group with him, but thankfully he lives a few hours away, so it would never happen. I would be too tempted! The first church I went to after becoming a Christian was with a teacher at my high school. He led the Christian Club at school and was a youth pastor at my old church (which is where I met my H). He wasn't MY teacher at the time, but I was always debating about God with him, because I as in a very anti-God, agnostic space. So, from one perspective, I get the whole change in dynamic from professional to personal and how scary that can be. I recently touched base with him and he kind of left me hanging, which I'm sure intensified my fear of abandonment with my T. My teacher was only 7 years older than me, so a different dynamic. But, I guess I feel people whose job is to care for you never truly DO care for you outside of it being their duty, calling or for financial reasons. It seems to me your T has shown he cares about you without any of those things, so that is why, even though the boundaries might have gotten unclear, I can really be touched that he has gone that far to demonstrate his care (while from God) is real and not just because he "has to." I don't really have anything helpful to say, other than thanks for sharing with all of us and I will definitely be praying for you. I, too, desperately want to connect in therapy and am afraid I am incapable of ever doing so...like some sort of design flaw. But, will He who gave sight to the blind and raised the dead really fail to restore our broken spirits? I have to believe He cannot fail to do it!
My connection with my T is only at its infancy, but I feel like I relate so much to you and permafrost as well. The need (and fear) for physical grounding, the going blank and inability to emote in person, the fear of losing control, the inability to cry in front of others (I actually can do it with my H hugging me, but it makes me feel angry and sick). I don't know enough about therapy to really advise you, but your T sounds like a lovely person, who truly cares. I have sometimes wondered what it would be like to be invited to my T's church or another group with him, but thankfully he lives a few hours away, so it would never happen. I would be too tempted! The first church I went to after becoming a Christian was with a teacher at my high school. He led the Christian Club at school and was a youth pastor at my old church (which is where I met my H). He wasn't MY teacher at the time, but I was always debating about God with him, because I as in a very anti-God, agnostic space. So, from one perspective, I get the whole change in dynamic from professional to personal and how scary that can be. I recently touched base with him and he kind of left me hanging, which I'm sure intensified my fear of abandonment with my T. My teacher was only 7 years older than me, so a different dynamic. But, I guess I feel people whose job is to care for you never truly DO care for you outside of it being their duty, calling or for financial reasons. It seems to me your T has shown he cares about you without any of those things, so that is why, even though the boundaries might have gotten unclear, I can really be touched that he has gone that far to demonstrate his care (while from God) is real and not just because he "has to." I don't really have anything helpful to say, other than thanks for sharing with all of us and I will definitely be praying for you. I, too, desperately want to connect in therapy and am afraid I am incapable of ever doing so...like some sort of design flaw.
But, will He who gave sight to the blind and raised the dead really fail to restore our broken spirits? I have to believe He cannot fail to do it!
MOnte, I am sorry I haven't had a chance to give this thread the attention that it deserves but I wanted to let you know that I am following it and I am going to reply soon. There is so much that I want to address.
Monte,
I think you do have a good T and I also think that you have put a great deal of effort into getting to the core of your issues. It sounds like each time you get close to really getting to some of the core issues that your defenses kick in and you run. I do agree with PF that perhaps you leave him before he has the chance to leave you. It gives you more control. It also sounds like you are dealing with pre-verbal trauma and perhaps running into some "speechless terror" which is what happens when something really bad happens and you are literally scared speechless. So, when you try to bring that up in therapy the same thing happens again because your body remembers the state it was in back when the original trauma happened. I think it is going to take some creative techniques to access some of this trauma and get it out and it is also going to require you to be really uncomfortable but keep moving forward anyway. That part takes practice and it also has to be done slowly and carefully in small doses so you don't get overwhelmed.
I too have issues getting out of the way and letting the little parts do what they need to do. It is hard to let yourself lose control in that way. However, I've actually found that in letting them have their say and process their crap that my fear of losing control lessens. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but the best place to lose control is in the safety of T's office where truly you won't fully lose control because your T has the situation contained and will keep you contained. What is the worst thing that could happen if you lose control of your emotions or your body? What do you imagine would happen? Can you check this against reality and see if it really would be that bad? I also have an extreme fear of vomiting. Mine comes from specific trauma and there have been many many times that I or another part of me have come close to vomiting in T. It is horrifying to me to think that could happen in session, but T says "I have a waste basket, so what if you do?" and she is right. It wouldn't be the end of the world. I also have parts that have trouble being seen when they are vulnerable or crying and need to hide. We often use a blanket in T and they will cover their face, their head or sometimes their body in order to safely have their feelings. Would that be workable for you? I think you are really insightful about your situation and that you and your T are highly creative and if you work together you can find a way to get to these issues and feelings safely. (((hugs)))
I think you do have a good T and I also think that you have put a great deal of effort into getting to the core of your issues. It sounds like each time you get close to really getting to some of the core issues that your defenses kick in and you run. I do agree with PF that perhaps you leave him before he has the chance to leave you. It gives you more control. It also sounds like you are dealing with pre-verbal trauma and perhaps running into some "speechless terror" which is what happens when something really bad happens and you are literally scared speechless. So, when you try to bring that up in therapy the same thing happens again because your body remembers the state it was in back when the original trauma happened. I think it is going to take some creative techniques to access some of this trauma and get it out and it is also going to require you to be really uncomfortable but keep moving forward anyway. That part takes practice and it also has to be done slowly and carefully in small doses so you don't get overwhelmed.
I too have issues getting out of the way and letting the little parts do what they need to do. It is hard to let yourself lose control in that way. However, I've actually found that in letting them have their say and process their crap that my fear of losing control lessens. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but the best place to lose control is in the safety of T's office where truly you won't fully lose control because your T has the situation contained and will keep you contained. What is the worst thing that could happen if you lose control of your emotions or your body? What do you imagine would happen? Can you check this against reality and see if it really would be that bad? I also have an extreme fear of vomiting. Mine comes from specific trauma and there have been many many times that I or another part of me have come close to vomiting in T. It is horrifying to me to think that could happen in session, but T says "I have a waste basket, so what if you do?" and she is right. It wouldn't be the end of the world. I also have parts that have trouble being seen when they are vulnerable or crying and need to hide. We often use a blanket in T and they will cover their face, their head or sometimes their body in order to safely have their feelings. Would that be workable for you? I think you are really insightful about your situation and that you and your T are highly creative and if you work together you can find a way to get to these issues and feelings safely. (((hugs)))
(((Monte))))
It sounds like there is such a deep terror around opening up and allowing yourself to experience what you have (very understandably) buried for so long. No wonder you're asking if this is the right T for you. I'd be desperately looking for a reason to not go there also. You have lived long enough suspended in pain without the ability to shut back down nor go forward to actually heal.
My daughter and I went to church this morning and I had read your post just before I left but didn't have time to respond. You were very much on my mind and heart throughout the service. During worship we sang one song that was about not fearing because the Lord is with us. And I thought of you. I don't want you to hear condemnation from me because you're scared, it would be inhuman not to be and you know that I've spent plenty of time plenty terrified despite my faith.
But I just wanted to say two things to you: you have already survived that which you have to face. No one wants to be in pain, so of course it feels scary but it will NOT destroy you. You've already proved that. But more importantly, there is no where you will walk that Christ has not walked before you. You may feel like you are alone, abandoned and isolated, but you are not. I will be praying that you will find strength and comfort.
I know you can do this, it's so clear from where I'm sitting.
Thank you for coming to talk about how you're feeling.
AG
It sounds like there is such a deep terror around opening up and allowing yourself to experience what you have (very understandably) buried for so long. No wonder you're asking if this is the right T for you. I'd be desperately looking for a reason to not go there also. You have lived long enough suspended in pain without the ability to shut back down nor go forward to actually heal.
My daughter and I went to church this morning and I had read your post just before I left but didn't have time to respond. You were very much on my mind and heart throughout the service. During worship we sang one song that was about not fearing because the Lord is with us. And I thought of you. I don't want you to hear condemnation from me because you're scared, it would be inhuman not to be and you know that I've spent plenty of time plenty terrified despite my faith.
But I just wanted to say two things to you: you have already survived that which you have to face. No one wants to be in pain, so of course it feels scary but it will NOT destroy you. You've already proved that. But more importantly, there is no where you will walk that Christ has not walked before you. You may feel like you are alone, abandoned and isolated, but you are not. I will be praying that you will find strength and comfort.
I know you can do this, it's so clear from where I'm sitting.
Thank you for coming to talk about how you're feeling.
AG