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I know how frustrating it can be when someone, especially in the helping profession, is not meeting your needs. However, I think because you have invested 6 months in her already, it is worth giving her the opportunity to meet your needs, but first you must be clear with her what isn't working, and what specifically you need from her.
Hi Permafrost,
I've been with my T for 3 years and sometimes I still feel like running. It still can be really hard for me to talk to him. Oftentimes it can be really frustrating. But I keep pushing myself to connect with him because I left the last therapist before him and the one before that. I'm not sure what to do with myself if I can't learn to open up and trust. I've managed to stay with him the longest.
I can't tell you whether to stay with her or not I do think it's worth talking to her about.
((((HUGS))))
Liese
PS. My computer is about to die because my charger doesn't seem to be working. May be gone for a couple days till I get the issue worked out!!
I've been with my T for 3 years and sometimes I still feel like running. It still can be really hard for me to talk to him. Oftentimes it can be really frustrating. But I keep pushing myself to connect with him because I left the last therapist before him and the one before that. I'm not sure what to do with myself if I can't learn to open up and trust. I've managed to stay with him the longest.
I can't tell you whether to stay with her or not I do think it's worth talking to her about.
((((HUGS))))
Liese
PS. My computer is about to die because my charger doesn't seem to be working. May be gone for a couple days till I get the issue worked out!!
((((Frosty)))) Oh, i am so sorry you`re so upset. I dont have much time now, i just wanted to let you know i read your poster and YES i do think you should tell her about this. Nothing to loose trying to speak to her about this. It can only get better.. so it seems. I do understand WHY you are being so upset, too. Let us know what you decide?
pf. hmmm. my opinion. if you REALLY feel NO connection and NO support, and are not talking in extremes (like i do...what i really should say for me, is, she doesn't craddle me and completely read my mind the way i want her to...but i see it as NOTHING...just me, probably)
but, if what you say is true, then the obvious thing, since you have talked to her about it, is to change.
now for me, working on t5, the best way to change, for me, again, is to find someone, get to know them, and go to both, so you are not left hanging, until you feel ok to drop this lady.
the problem i am having , is, it appears, i can't quit t4 entirely, i still see some hope, and she is a differnet type therapy from t5, so, i will parellel them...
one leaves me feeling better, one leaves me feeling worse. confusing as hell.
i would ask, too, what type of therapy she practices, and maybe go for another style. interview a number of them on the phone, and know if they aren't willing to do that, ten minutes or so, then i would cross them off the list. you can't, I can't, make consult appointments ad nauseum..
so, if she really doesn't get you. she can't see your panic attack for what it is (i hide mine too)...there is NO connection...
well then, honey...there are lots of t's in the world.
good luck, hope i am not too abrupt. jill
but, if what you say is true, then the obvious thing, since you have talked to her about it, is to change.
now for me, working on t5, the best way to change, for me, again, is to find someone, get to know them, and go to both, so you are not left hanging, until you feel ok to drop this lady.
the problem i am having , is, it appears, i can't quit t4 entirely, i still see some hope, and she is a differnet type therapy from t5, so, i will parellel them...
one leaves me feeling better, one leaves me feeling worse. confusing as hell.
i would ask, too, what type of therapy she practices, and maybe go for another style. interview a number of them on the phone, and know if they aren't willing to do that, ten minutes or so, then i would cross them off the list. you can't, I can't, make consult appointments ad nauseum..
so, if she really doesn't get you. she can't see your panic attack for what it is (i hide mine too)...there is NO connection...
well then, honey...there are lots of t's in the world.
good luck, hope i am not too abrupt. jill
Pf – i'm so sorrry. it sounds like your T is not very well attuned to you. It sounds like you are really struggling to be present with your T and be vulnerable and risk with her. I really struggle to be present with my own T, I smile when I am nervous, and cry when I’m happy… I can be confusingly vague… and it’s taken a little while, but my T does understand that when I’m doing these things, I’m struggling, even if she doesn’t know why or how. Honestly, I can’t say I trust my T… not even after a year. But I can say I don’t distrust her and I’m willing to keep risking… For me, my trust issues run very deep. I can’t just trust people so well, and my T challenged me to not try to trust, but simply try to no distrust. My T is one person I feel like I can do that with - at least some of the time...
It sounds like you really don’t trust your T or feel like she is your ally or a safe person to try and risk with. It sounds like you really do distrust her – and it sounds like there are some good reasons why.
I’m not sure if you should stay with her and keep trying or not. I do think you should tell her the same kinds of things you posted here… and depending on how she responds, consider seeing another T… That may help you learn if this is her style that is hard for you to connect with or if this is more of a reflection of you and help you understand this a bit more.
I think it is really wise of you to not push into other issues just yet until you feel like you can risk with her more, or another T more, and feel like she (or another T) is someone you could potentially trust.
Some T’s I don’t click with well, and some I do. Sometimes, it’s just the style – sometimes it’s been because they are really not getting it or are just not good Ts. I have encountered T’s who were way too responsive for what I needed and T’s that were frustratingly too blank.
Actually, there is a lot that it *can* change. Just last week I told my regular T I was struggling to trust her. I have been seeing her on and off for quite awhile, and felt like I went BACKWARDS in trusting her. I felt awful telling her – like I was insulting her or something… and I told her that too… She totally handled it very differently than I expected (or feared).
I have also told my old T, I didn’t trust her. It didn’t help the relationship between us improve. However, it helped me realize she was not a good fit and I needed to find someone else. It helped me have peace with that decision, as painful as it was. In the end, it was healing in a way. I was able to better sort out what just wasn’t working because of her style, and what wasn’t working that was something I could change and work on in the relationship I have with my current T.
If you tell her you feel like you just can’t trust her, and she offers no support or guidance for sorting that out, then I think that would be a really good sign you need to find a new T, and that your feelings about her are more than just a general struggle to trust. If she does offer guidance and support in walking through that, then that might help… it might also feel really scary too… but at least you would know. And if you are at the point of moving on to another T, what is there to lose? (yeah, I know, it's still hard and scary)
Ts are different than friends (of course) but your friend analogy fits - If a friend felt like they could not trust me, I would really want them to tell me… I may or may not be able to work it out with them, but I would still really want to know…
I’m so sorry she is so frustrating and just doesn’t get what you need. I’d probably be really frustrated too – she does sound like a wall, like an invisible wall… We all need people to help be our safety nets…
So sorry this is so crummy for you. My heart really goes out to you. You are really working and trying so hard – please know, it’s not your fault. You are hurting and doing everything you can – keep at it...and know we are here too – you are by no means alone in this. Keep posting and lean on us…
many safe hugs,
~jane
It sounds like you really don’t trust your T or feel like she is your ally or a safe person to try and risk with. It sounds like you really do distrust her – and it sounds like there are some good reasons why.
I’m not sure if you should stay with her and keep trying or not. I do think you should tell her the same kinds of things you posted here… and depending on how she responds, consider seeing another T… That may help you learn if this is her style that is hard for you to connect with or if this is more of a reflection of you and help you understand this a bit more.
I think it is really wise of you to not push into other issues just yet until you feel like you can risk with her more, or another T more, and feel like she (or another T) is someone you could potentially trust.
Some T’s I don’t click with well, and some I do. Sometimes, it’s just the style – sometimes it’s been because they are really not getting it or are just not good Ts. I have encountered T’s who were way too responsive for what I needed and T’s that were frustratingly too blank.
quote:But how can it change when I tell her that I don't trust her and feel completely misunderstood? If a friend told you this then there's not too much to do except defend yourself or ask how and why.”
Actually, there is a lot that it *can* change. Just last week I told my regular T I was struggling to trust her. I have been seeing her on and off for quite awhile, and felt like I went BACKWARDS in trusting her. I felt awful telling her – like I was insulting her or something… and I told her that too… She totally handled it very differently than I expected (or feared).
I have also told my old T, I didn’t trust her. It didn’t help the relationship between us improve. However, it helped me realize she was not a good fit and I needed to find someone else. It helped me have peace with that decision, as painful as it was. In the end, it was healing in a way. I was able to better sort out what just wasn’t working because of her style, and what wasn’t working that was something I could change and work on in the relationship I have with my current T.
If you tell her you feel like you just can’t trust her, and she offers no support or guidance for sorting that out, then I think that would be a really good sign you need to find a new T, and that your feelings about her are more than just a general struggle to trust. If she does offer guidance and support in walking through that, then that might help… it might also feel really scary too… but at least you would know. And if you are at the point of moving on to another T, what is there to lose? (yeah, I know, it's still hard and scary)
Ts are different than friends (of course) but your friend analogy fits - If a friend felt like they could not trust me, I would really want them to tell me… I may or may not be able to work it out with them, but I would still really want to know…
I’m so sorry she is so frustrating and just doesn’t get what you need. I’d probably be really frustrated too – she does sound like a wall, like an invisible wall… We all need people to help be our safety nets…
So sorry this is so crummy for you. My heart really goes out to you. You are really working and trying so hard – please know, it’s not your fault. You are hurting and doing everything you can – keep at it...and know we are here too – you are by no means alone in this. Keep posting and lean on us…
many safe hugs,
~jane
PF,
I am surprised that your T said, "Well I do take it personally" when you told her you didn't want her to go to the University with you. That seems like a typical response we might get from a friend or family member...but a therapist saying that? Seems a bit like a firefighter smoking a cigarette in the woods. She should know better. Therapy is the ONE place where we should be safe to express our true emotions without having to worry about that person getting defensive.
I am surprised that your T said, "Well I do take it personally" when you told her you didn't want her to go to the University with you. That seems like a typical response we might get from a friend or family member...but a therapist saying that? Seems a bit like a firefighter smoking a cigarette in the woods. She should know better. Therapy is the ONE place where we should be safe to express our true emotions without having to worry about that person getting defensive.
Hi Frosty
As LG said I also find her comment about taking it personally very misplaced. That is the very last thing any CBT therapist should say. And i see your problem about having any discussion with her after how she responded to you last time. I really don't know but maybe you could say that you want to talk to her about trust but you dont want to offend her and are not sure how to go about it? Something where she can hopefully step in and guide the process.
Sorry, i am not being very helpful i also wouldn't know what the next step was if my T had responded like that.
Pan
As LG said I also find her comment about taking it personally very misplaced. That is the very last thing any CBT therapist should say. And i see your problem about having any discussion with her after how she responded to you last time. I really don't know but maybe you could say that you want to talk to her about trust but you dont want to offend her and are not sure how to go about it? Something where she can hopefully step in and guide the process.
Sorry, i am not being very helpful i also wouldn't know what the next step was if my T had responded like that.
Pan
Permafrost ~
That is a really tough spot. I think it is one of the hardest things for me to not distrust. It’s also a pretty essential thing. It’s taken me time to not distrust my T and to risk that she could be a safety net. Honestly, it's still a matter of that she "could be" a safety net, but I believe that is possible enough to take the risk. And it's taken a lot of time to get there. We’ve talked through about what to do in a crisis beforehand. She’s explained and reassured me a number of times how she would be a safety net of sorts. It’s been pretty important in order to feel like I can take more risks with her. Even when I struggle to share something that is scary for me to share with her, I’ll tell her at the time, even in the middle of sharing it with her, "what if I can’t handle this?" or "what if I (end up in a crisis)" or sometimes I will ask this stuff about what happens if life happens and I end up in a crisis in between sessions... and she will tell me things she can do to help me stay safe. It’s almost like walking out on a tightrope, so scared I will fall, and stopping every couple of steps and asking, “wait, can show me the net again?” and she does. Then I walk another step or two, forget the net was there, and ask again, "wait, is there a net?" and she shows it to me again... over time, I can walk further and higher without asking to see the net again, but even when I do, she still helps me see it again. (does this make any sense?) She doesn't ever take it personally because she knows that people learn to not trust because they have been through a lot where there was no net and got really hurt. She knows that my struggle to trust isn't about her, but about the people who really were not worth trusting, and people who really hurt me so much I learned to distrust people. She also knows that therapy is taking risks. Clients need to know the therapist is on their side, and it takes time to really get that on a deep level. "Lots of time, relationship, and practice," she says. She also has a way of showing me she is connecting and walking out on that same rope with me – a lot like your T did in that one session you described where she was very warm. My T reminds me too that she is on my side and takes time to show me...
Some T’s do have more of a bias that clients are not being genuine. I encountered one, and it was really confusing. I asked my T about this once, and she explained some Ts do think that more, and even when they do, they should realize that if a client is being manipulative or playing a game, it’s for a reason… clients don’t come in and pay money and sit through sessions just to mess with a T. Sometimes it’s the only way they know how to relate. Yeah, there are some clients who are manipulative, but it’s not that common.
It is actually common for clients who have been through tough stuff to have mixed body language. For example, sometimes I’ll smile when I get nervous, but my T sees that it is not fitting and sees right through it. They understand it’s a nervous habit, a defense mechanism, and my T says she sees it a lot. She tells me, “I notice you are smiling but you are talking of something that is hard. Can you tell me more of what is going on inside for you and what you are feeling right now?” She says this to help me connect to what I feel more, and for her to understand me more.
I’m surprised your T took it personally that you didn’t want to be seen in public doing a therapy exercise. I’m surprised she would actually even suggest something like that out in public even to do with her with so many people around… At the same time, I have also heard of T’s who go with a client on a flight when they are scared of flying, or to a doctor when they are scared of doctors. Yet that is done with a lot of respect about the risk that the client is taking in having a T with them and a ton of sensitivity about not looking too much like a T.
Ts are supposed to have huge sensitivity to been seen in public with us, and not even say hello unless we say hello, because of that risk that someone could even make a guess that we might be a client of the T.
It is clear she really wants to help. There are other ways to try such an exercise – where you would do it on your own, and then perhaps sneak into a bathroom or library and journal about what you felt as you tried it, and then brought that in to talk to your T about. I've done a number of things like that, and it has really helped.
Her reaction to you telling her to not take it personally - well, makes sense why you would be concerned she would take it personally or insulting – and if she does – that is her stuff. Not yours.
Clients have a hard time trusting Ts all the time. It’s pretty common. Ts who take privacy or trust as a personal issue about them are making the therapy about them, rather than meeting the client where they are at and helping create a safe place for the client. Yeah, on the inside, it can be hard for Ts, especially when they care about us and do really want to help – but it’s their job to not take it personally, and to know that it is their stuff if they do take it personally. It is their job to help us walk through it. They are trained (usually) on how to handle this kind of stuff, and helping people walk through this stuff is why they are in this profession.
When I was worried about my T feeling insulted by telling her I didn’t trust her, I first started by telling her ”you know how I really struggle to trust and connect and take risks with people…” and then I talked a little about how I struggle to trust anyone. I told her, “in my head, I know there is no reason to distrust you, but I do anyhow. I’m not sure how to work through that and learn to trust you more.” My T understood. I think telling her my goal was to trust more – that is made it easier. She also holds her own stuff well. She’s not a blank wall and does react to what I say, but she didn’t take it personally. She knows I struggle to trust in general, and especially to trust a T.
If you were to tell your T, not matter how you told her, and she took it personally or was insulted or was otherwise negative about it, rather than being supportive of figuring out how to walk through it together, that would be a good sign that she’s just not the right T for you. It would be her stuff. Not because you just struggle to trust…
The session you described where you did talk about your relationship and she responded by being very reassuring and connecting with you – that is a good sign that it’s worth the risk to tell her more and bring up your struggle to trust and connect with her. It is a risk, but in the end, what you are risking is finding out if she can handle that or not. If she can, then that’s great and you can work on it with her. If she can’t and isn’t reassuring and supportive and doesn’t work with you on it or takes it personally or insulting… then it’s a good sign that it was about her, not you, and it’s time to move on and you can do that with the peace knowing you did everything. Not bringing it up, it’s likely to keep coming up for you anyhow… and just moving on without saying it, you might miss what could be helpful.
She may not be the right T for what you need right now. That would be a hard thing to face, but I really think you can do it. We are all here for you too. My T says a lot of clients come to therapy and deal with “the problem of the moment” and never get to talking about the relationship with the T or working on core things like trusting people. You should really truly be very proud of yourself in how you are walking through this and the things you are working through. No matter if this T is the right T for you and you need to move on or not, you are really doing a lot of good hard work that I think is going to really help you in the long run.
I wish your T was more understanding of where you are at, and I'm very hopeful that she can be or that you will be able to find someone who is a much better fit.
hang in there,
~jane
(edited to take out an irrelevant detail)
quote:I distrust her in the sense that I expect her not to be of any help when I have a “crisis”. Even when I’m with her. I think I’d have to spell everything out in order for her to understand and I’m not able to do that in such situations.
That is a really tough spot. I think it is one of the hardest things for me to not distrust. It’s also a pretty essential thing. It’s taken me time to not distrust my T and to risk that she could be a safety net. Honestly, it's still a matter of that she "could be" a safety net, but I believe that is possible enough to take the risk. And it's taken a lot of time to get there. We’ve talked through about what to do in a crisis beforehand. She’s explained and reassured me a number of times how she would be a safety net of sorts. It’s been pretty important in order to feel like I can take more risks with her. Even when I struggle to share something that is scary for me to share with her, I’ll tell her at the time, even in the middle of sharing it with her, "what if I can’t handle this?" or "what if I (end up in a crisis)" or sometimes I will ask this stuff about what happens if life happens and I end up in a crisis in between sessions... and she will tell me things she can do to help me stay safe. It’s almost like walking out on a tightrope, so scared I will fall, and stopping every couple of steps and asking, “wait, can show me the net again?” and she does. Then I walk another step or two, forget the net was there, and ask again, "wait, is there a net?" and she shows it to me again... over time, I can walk further and higher without asking to see the net again, but even when I do, she still helps me see it again. (does this make any sense?) She doesn't ever take it personally because she knows that people learn to not trust because they have been through a lot where there was no net and got really hurt. She knows that my struggle to trust isn't about her, but about the people who really were not worth trusting, and people who really hurt me so much I learned to distrust people. She also knows that therapy is taking risks. Clients need to know the therapist is on their side, and it takes time to really get that on a deep level. "Lots of time, relationship, and practice," she says. She also has a way of showing me she is connecting and walking out on that same rope with me – a lot like your T did in that one session you described where she was very warm. My T reminds me too that she is on my side and takes time to show me...
Some T’s do have more of a bias that clients are not being genuine. I encountered one, and it was really confusing. I asked my T about this once, and she explained some Ts do think that more, and even when they do, they should realize that if a client is being manipulative or playing a game, it’s for a reason… clients don’t come in and pay money and sit through sessions just to mess with a T. Sometimes it’s the only way they know how to relate. Yeah, there are some clients who are manipulative, but it’s not that common.
It is actually common for clients who have been through tough stuff to have mixed body language. For example, sometimes I’ll smile when I get nervous, but my T sees that it is not fitting and sees right through it. They understand it’s a nervous habit, a defense mechanism, and my T says she sees it a lot. She tells me, “I notice you are smiling but you are talking of something that is hard. Can you tell me more of what is going on inside for you and what you are feeling right now?” She says this to help me connect to what I feel more, and for her to understand me more.
I’m surprised your T took it personally that you didn’t want to be seen in public doing a therapy exercise. I’m surprised she would actually even suggest something like that out in public even to do with her with so many people around… At the same time, I have also heard of T’s who go with a client on a flight when they are scared of flying, or to a doctor when they are scared of doctors. Yet that is done with a lot of respect about the risk that the client is taking in having a T with them and a ton of sensitivity about not looking too much like a T.
Ts are supposed to have huge sensitivity to been seen in public with us, and not even say hello unless we say hello, because of that risk that someone could even make a guess that we might be a client of the T.
It is clear she really wants to help. There are other ways to try such an exercise – where you would do it on your own, and then perhaps sneak into a bathroom or library and journal about what you felt as you tried it, and then brought that in to talk to your T about. I've done a number of things like that, and it has really helped.
Her reaction to you telling her to not take it personally - well, makes sense why you would be concerned she would take it personally or insulting – and if she does – that is her stuff. Not yours.
Clients have a hard time trusting Ts all the time. It’s pretty common. Ts who take privacy or trust as a personal issue about them are making the therapy about them, rather than meeting the client where they are at and helping create a safe place for the client. Yeah, on the inside, it can be hard for Ts, especially when they care about us and do really want to help – but it’s their job to not take it personally, and to know that it is their stuff if they do take it personally. It is their job to help us walk through it. They are trained (usually) on how to handle this kind of stuff, and helping people walk through this stuff is why they are in this profession.
quote:I have a question- since you were afraid of insulting her, how did you tell her?
When I was worried about my T feeling insulted by telling her I didn’t trust her, I first started by telling her ”you know how I really struggle to trust and connect and take risks with people…” and then I talked a little about how I struggle to trust anyone. I told her, “in my head, I know there is no reason to distrust you, but I do anyhow. I’m not sure how to work through that and learn to trust you more.” My T understood. I think telling her my goal was to trust more – that is made it easier. She also holds her own stuff well. She’s not a blank wall and does react to what I say, but she didn’t take it personally. She knows I struggle to trust in general, and especially to trust a T.
If you were to tell your T, not matter how you told her, and she took it personally or was insulted or was otherwise negative about it, rather than being supportive of figuring out how to walk through it together, that would be a good sign that she’s just not the right T for you. It would be her stuff. Not because you just struggle to trust…
The session you described where you did talk about your relationship and she responded by being very reassuring and connecting with you – that is a good sign that it’s worth the risk to tell her more and bring up your struggle to trust and connect with her. It is a risk, but in the end, what you are risking is finding out if she can handle that or not. If she can, then that’s great and you can work on it with her. If she can’t and isn’t reassuring and supportive and doesn’t work with you on it or takes it personally or insulting… then it’s a good sign that it was about her, not you, and it’s time to move on and you can do that with the peace knowing you did everything. Not bringing it up, it’s likely to keep coming up for you anyhow… and just moving on without saying it, you might miss what could be helpful.
She may not be the right T for what you need right now. That would be a hard thing to face, but I really think you can do it. We are all here for you too. My T says a lot of clients come to therapy and deal with “the problem of the moment” and never get to talking about the relationship with the T or working on core things like trusting people. You should really truly be very proud of yourself in how you are walking through this and the things you are working through. No matter if this T is the right T for you and you need to move on or not, you are really doing a lot of good hard work that I think is going to really help you in the long run.
I wish your T was more understanding of where you are at, and I'm very hopeful that she can be or that you will be able to find someone who is a much better fit.
hang in there,
~jane
(edited to take out an irrelevant detail)