(((((MONTE)))))

I struggle with all that too. I still feel the rejection but I am starting to trust more in the relationship and it helps to counterbalance it some. Ah, yes, the self-inflicted pain. Very familiar with that.

xoxo

Liese

(((((MONTE)))))

I have to run out to the dentist and don't have time to reply. So sorry about the pain. It's so hard.

(((((HUGS))))

Liese

quote:

My interactions with him cause so much hurt and I have to work hard at suppressing it so I don't flee...meanwhile he is encouraging me to name and connect the very same feelings to childhood memories. These memories evoke nothing. What a bind.

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

I emailed him this angst. I said to him, "What are you going to do with this...it is YOU who evokes pain in me...not my past...but I have to suppress it in order to stay in the room...what do we do with this?"

Oh, Monte! You just described perfectly pretty much my last two months worth of office sessions...and quite a few before that. I have written my T about this pain and how I can't seem to relate it to anything other than him and feel empty about most everything else (though I am connecting to old pain a bit more with parts work). We never seem to talk about it very directly in person. It is too hard. We have discussed it on the phone once or twice, but I am able to, because he's not right in front of me, so that I'm actively writhing in it. It is so frustrating and I understand how hopeless it can feel. I can only hope it gets better eventually. It is agonizing to know your pain is about one thing, but to only be able to relate it to someone who you desperately want to get close to (and have it keep you frozen, in between approach and retreat). If it's not too hard, I'd love to see what your T says on this topic in your next session. ((((Monte))))

((((MONTE))))

I keep trying to write something supportive but keep deleting and retyping. Words seem inadequate right now. I know the pain and I know how awful it is. I am so glad you told T that he is the one causing you the hurt and the problem and that he wants to talk about it in session. I'm sorry you couldn't ask for that hug. Doesn't it drive you crazy that you could do it once but not again and you know that all you have to do is ask because he told you that's all you have to do?

(((((HUGS)))))

Liese

Monte,

I'm sorry you're hurting so much over your relationship with your T. I can understand how it all feels like it's impossible to deal with at times, and also how difficult it can be to link the pain from the present to the past. I am slowly getting there, but I wonder if that's more because I've been pushed in that direction by my T. Reading the book I have to read has forced me to see where the pain actually comes from, although I would rather avoid seeing the real source of my pain and put it on my T. I think it's so much easier that way, at least for me, because it IS real pain that we feel in the CURRENT relationship with our T, even though the causes of our issues are rooted in our childhoods and have created the distorted thinking and feelings we now have in the present. It is SO hard to parse it all out correctly, and to get to the place where we feel safe enough that we CAN link our present pain to the past, and even to the present. I am learning that a lot of my pain comes from my past, but that I am doing things in my present life that are keeping that pain alive and well, even thriving. It takes a lot of courage for us to look at the present and see how we have got ourselves here, based on the things we learned to do to keep ourselves 'safe' in the past. It is a hard and painful reality.

I hope you are doing okay. I am happy to hear your T wants to discuss this issue of pain in person, and that he will not respond in email. That is a conversation that needs to take place in real time. I hope it goes well for you.

Hugs, my friend. Thinking of you...

MTF

MONTE,

Sorry to hijack. Just wondering what book MTF is reading.

Liese

Liese--it's called "Reinventing Your Life" by Jeffrey E. Young, PhD. and Janet Klosko, PhD.

MTF

(((((MONTE)))))

I remember the physical pain of separation well when I left my T. I had been seeing him once a week but was on his float list for a second appointment after my breakdown, which I always got but waiting for it was pushing all my abandonment fears. I kept thinking I had to be independent and was trying to talk myself out of needing that second appointment. I was actually at home crying for him sometimes, the pain was so bad. Finally, I acknowledged that I was being really mean to a part of myself who really needed to see T twice a week. I asked and finally got that second appointment and leaving him hasn't been as painful as it used to be. I find it harder to go from Thursday to Monday than Monday to Thursday for several reasons. But it helps so much. I don't know when I'll go back to once a week. It's not on the table but I think I'll be ready when the time comes.

Anyway, the long and the short of if it is, Monte, is that I know that you've talked about wanting that second appointment. Maybe it would ease the pain a bit knowing you were seeing him again. It helped me a lot.

xoxoxo

Liese

In my case, having the phone session on Fridays has made it slightly more manageable to get through my weeks...but, it hasn't made receiving my T's care in person any less painful. I am sometimes in such agony just being in his presence with him being kind, turning down the light for me, sitting on the floor to let me feel a bit more connected, saying kind things, other things he'd probably be willing to do if I asked...it hurts more than rejection. I don't know if I were able to have an office session if that would change, but I suspect it takes time rather than frequency. Jumping into therapy each week is like jumping into an ice cold pool in the middle of Summer. For me, it was always necessary to get my toes wet first, and then my ankles, and then my knees, etc., until I am fully submerged. Except, in my case, the stark contrast between my childhood experiences and T's care is such that even at the end of a two-hour period, I am LUCKY if I have gotten up to my waist. I never seem to be able to get past that, up to my shoulders, dunk my head and start swimming through the relationship, diving in and finding the stuff that sunk to the bottom of the pool that I am trying to get at, retrieve and bring back up to the surface with me. My T himself said he thinks that is what I need. A very, very long session, because I take so long to acclimate to the environment and open up. I know longer sessions aren't recommended and he doesn't have time in his schedule anyway, but it is something we may try if he works on Labor Day, because many of his other clients will probably be out of town. Even that hurts, because my T is wanting to offer me a TRIPLE session at single session cost, just so we could spend the first half on me being comfortable, get through all the walls I put up as soon as I walk in that building. Why would he do such a thing and how could I possibly accept it?

Sorry, off-topic there...I was just trying to say that I find that having two sessions is very useful to increase my week-to-week stability, but having longer sessions seems to be the only way I can get past the numbness of diving into that cold pool and start to feel enough to explore anything at all. Just my personal experience and not sure if it would be true for anyone else...or even advisable despite being true for me.

Oh Monte, You make me laugh!!! It helped me to think of it as being kind to myself.

Yaku, you have some good points. I definitely couldn't have done two sessions a week a year ago. Actually a year ago, I was still going every other week. It took a long time and getting over fear of intimacy (still working on that) and fear of engulfment before I could see my T as frequently as I do now. But I guess, for me, since I was crying for him in between sessions, I mean literally lying on my bed crying, I think it was a necessity. Gosh, a 47 year old woman crying for her T. I had such pain in between sessions and seeing him twice a week helped to alleviate that.

(((MONTE))) Good luck my dear!

Liese - to be clear. I wasn't saying that I don't need my T twice a week, I absolutely do. If I were capable of crying almost at all, I would have been crying for my T too when I was only once a week. I'm just saying that for me, the deeper problem is that just being in a room with my T and experiencing his care is so triggering for me and I enter so phobic of or walled off against that experience that it takes me what would be a full session single session for hard stuff to start surfacing. If I am lucky, it will come up 30-45 minutes in, but when our sessions are only an hour long, we often only get to it just before he would usually start wrapping up for prayer. I am not clock watching at all, so as much as I used to think it was unconsciously me trying to push boundaries and stay longer, I don't think that's what it is. It happens even when I blank out enough that I think I have more time in my session than I do. I feel like I need to start paying someone for pre-session work. Like stretching before working out. I have another metaphor for it, but it's inappropriate and possibly triggering, so I'll leave that out. So, I basically need to find someone else who badly triggers my transference and pay them to hang out with me and try to get me to talk about stuff right before my session. Then I'd be all cracked open for my sessions.


(((Monte))) Sorry for hijacking there, but I was afraid I was being misunderstood and didn't make myself clear enough before and you might also misinterpret. I think twice a week sessions are great and I hope someday you'll be able to ask for them and your T has room to give them to you.

YAKU,

I get walled off with my T too. I guess I never saw it as an issue with having a problem receiving his care. I saw it as a problem with intimacy but then again, getting all the attention for 45 minutes straight IS care, right?

LOL! Love the other metaphor.

Monte, sorry for hijacking.

quote:

Yes...but needing someone that frequently for any reason...and ADMITTING it to them!

Yuck with poo on top.

Sorry, Monte. You really made me laugh at that one, and I needed a laugh.

I agree with you that the current stuff hurts more than the old stuff. I find that to be true for myself as well. And talking about it all??? Yeah, that's why T and I are not doing that anymore. I kind of miss that, but I don't know what's worse.

Good luck next week! I really hope you can get to where you need to be with this. You deserve some peace and comfort with all of this struggling.

(((Monte)))

MTF

Monte - It's actually worse than that in a way, but along those lines of having a separate person whose job is to get/keep you prepared for the work. I don't actually even know where I learned the particular term that popped into my head, but as much as it disgusted me, it really was an accurate metaphor. I prefer to stick with the stretching before working out thing. Like, I need a personal trainer to work with me, so when I go into practice and work with the coach and my "team," my body is already in the right condition to perform. That is a much more appropriate way of looking at it.

I know that 90 minutes has been better than one hour for me and two hours is really good, but I don't think I'd be able to do "memory" type of work even with that amount of time unless I come in prepared. I listen to music, journal, pray ahead of coming in and still get locked up just being in his presence. It feels so impossible and yes, unbearable. I don't want to artificially work myself into a frenzy, but even on a day where tons of stuff has been coming up for me, just the knowledge that I might have to face his care can shut me down.

What if, instead of asking, "May I please have more time," and risk that he has a boundary about even longer sessions or just hating yourself for asking (totally get that and I'm lucky that my T voluntarily puts me at the end of his day and goes longer, like yours)...what if you just spent a session talking about the problem of feeling like there is either not enough time or some other impediment to opening up and pick his brain for suggestions. The only real risk there is getting the, "It will take time for you to feel safe enough here to move into sessions more quickly and it will happen eventually," frustrating reply that I sometimes get. It sounds like you are talking to your T about these things, but there is so much good material right here. First, the shutting down and why that is. Next, the hating yourself for it, and for needing more help to get open. The frustration that your emotional sensitivity is such that you are either numb or screaming in pain inside, so much pain that it can't be expressed and how that is impairing the connection. I have described it like being a nerve that lacks the receptors and transmitters to exchange signals with the other ones around it...

Anyway, I'm probably being no help here. I am really out of it. But, I hope you are able to talk about some of these feelings in your next session. There are so many parallels to what T and I are working through, so I'm really rooting for you (and hoping you can tell me how the heck to do it too!).

((((MONTE)))))

Thanks for being so generous about the hijacking!

I have smiled a few times in the past few minutes reading the comments on this page. How I needed that smile.

The "yuck with poo on top" - I am going to have fun saying that over the new few days.

Well I am doing the Happy Dance. I asked and I received 2 x appointments this week and 2 x appointments next week and then we might do one single, then double weeks. Feeling like I finally honoured myself and my needs and asked for what I needed.

Hey, Monte- it strikes me that you seemed to think that just because you really want to see T twice a week, isn't a good enough reason to do it. I understand that really well. I had the same issue with my T, I thought that I didn't really need to see him weekly, that I just wanted to, and it wasn't a good enough reason. As time went on, I realized that what I wanted was actually what I needed in order to feel ok and safe in between sessions instead of all strung out and having too much time to make him into "evilT" so that trust could never build. I'd fall back to where I was before the last session in terms of building trust. twice weekly would have been better, even- probably. Well, as you know, what I needed- that didn't work out- but I'm wondering if there is a chance that, if it isn't too cost prohibitive, and your T would be amenable- you could think about just the *possibility* of giving into your inner kidlet on this one- even if it is just from time-to-time?

Does this sound too- intrusive? You know your needs/wants better- of course you do- it's just something I am throwing out there as a thought.

Hugs, Monte-

BB

quote:

His touch hurts...in that he has to withdraw it at some point and I have to leave. When he holds my hands in prayers I cheat and look at my hands in his and don't listen to a word of his prayers, just take from the warmth of his hands...a whole 2 or 3 minutes. WHOOPEE! But I have to let go. He is happy to give me a long hug and that is so precious to know, but it is not long enough to cover a life time and moving away feels like I am dropping the small inner me back into the abyss. Sitting there feeling comfortable and supported and understood hurts, because I have to leave. Him giving me a relationship that feels parental, but is not hurts. It all hurts more than the old stuff. There is the irony, having the needs met hurts.

Sorry to pop in 3 days after you posted this, Monte, but I just now read it and it was so hauntingly beautiful the way you expressed the pain and sadness and irony of it all. I feel every word with you.

You know, I am currently seeing my T twice a week again because I just couldn't convince my insides to be satisfied with less. And yet, some days after I have rushed the 45 minutes travel to get there on time, I sit down on the couch with seemingly nothing to say and wonder why I tried so hard to get there on time just to be silent. Recently I lamented to my T that sooner or later I was going to have to come up with a really good reason for being there so often. She just smiled and said there were plenty of reasons. Maybe just wanting to be there is good enough all by itself, and we have to allow ourselves to go through that bittersweet process until the day finally comes when it doesn't hurt so much to come less often, or even to leave.

(((Monte)))

I love your T! You two are doing such great work. I love that he has your card and said he put it where he wanted to put it.

Thanks for sharing your session.

Oh Monte, thanks for sharing the session details. I wanted to ask about it on the other thread but figured that would have been a bit nosey.

It's so helpful to read how this therapy stuff should look. It's still such a mystery to me.

My T said this week that I'm "walled off." Ya think?! lol

If I could crack myself open for anybody it would be for him. But it's so f***ing hard. Argh!

( thanks again for sharing... )

Mnte,

Glad you're feeling so good right now about your session and your relationship with your T. That is wonderful what he said about putting your card wherever he wants to. Had to smile about that one. And putting his arm around you the whole time??? I would just melt if my T did that. There's no way I couldn't connect with her if she did that, and I'm sure it was very helpful for you. Wow. I am so happy and amazed that you just keep on doing such good work together with your T. So happy for you!! Way to go !!

Hugs,
MTF

Monte, that is very powerful. I remember connectedness to my therapist within that same pain, and you put it well, it is both excruciatingly painful to the point that I would do anything to avoid it- and at the same time incredibly relieving and healing. What is it about having to expereince the pain in this new context in order to heal from it? I'm finding that pain- I guess I would call it existential pain because I can't connect mine to anything specific- is getting buried again now that I do not see my T. I suppose it wasn't really safe to experience it with him anyways since he wasn't really there with me, but thousands of miles away behind a screen. So I can just imagine how very powerful it must be to have your T right there, actuially touching you. Amazing. Very moving.

Thanks once again for sharing.

Love Beebs

(((((MONTE)))))

So incredibly touching to read. You are doing amazing work.

xoxoxo

Liese

(((Monte)))

I haven't posted on your thread until now because I really just haven't known what to say, but I am just so happy for you that things are going so well for you with your T. Thank you for sharing...I absolutely love reading about the connection that you and your T have developed and are continuing to cultivate.

Hugs to you.

Hi Mnte! I agree with everyone else. You and your T are doing awesome work. I really appreciate your taking the time to write the details of your sessions with him. You both totally rock.

Hug,
SG

((((MONTE))))

I keep thinking about the limited nature of the relationship and asking myself why it hurts so much. If T and I were married, would he pay as much attention to me as he does during those sessions? Would he be in as good of a mood as he is in sessions? Or would he come home tired, want to turn on the tv and chill out a bit. Maybe therapy IS way better than being married to them. If we were married to them, we'd also have to cater to their needs and that could get, well, um ... a little tiring after a while. Therapy is all about us us us. OHhhh, and that feels so good, doesn't it? I have closer and deeper conversations with my T than I've ever had with my H. At least this is what I'm trying to convince myself of.

I try to imagine my T in his boxers or with black socks on, farting and burping around the house.

Unfortunately, the images I have of him is that he has all these wonderful loving relationships with all these really cool and interesting people, that he's going out to dinner, trying new restaurants and going to the movies. Maybe that he's having the life I gave up and long for.

xoxoxo

Liese

quote:

I try to imagine my T in his boxers or with black socks on, farting and burping around the house.

OH, I know, Monte, wouldn't it be nice to be able to do that? I can call my T anytime and I know you can email your T anytime. Why does it still FEEL so restricted when we really do have all this access to them? I think I just want to soak in his "love" that I didn't get anywhere else.


xoxo

Liese

My T says our connection will last forever, but has used the analogy of parenting and how a child grows up and doesn't need their parents in that direct way anymore (yet the connection exists from afar). That just makes my inside kids stomp and pout and get really scared, because it seems so impossible. I know we're adults, but I try to imagine telling that to Boo in a couple of years. "Mommy loves you and will always be here for you, but someday you're going to leave, not see me all the time, probably not talk to me very much and it won't matter to you." I'm pretty certain it would freak her out the same way. I feel like it's (metaphorical and probably literal) years too early in my developmental/attachment stage to tackle that concept without panicking. In fact, I think my not-even-three-year-old daughter (who rarely has extreme fits of separation anxiety anymore) is actually way beyond me in terms of developing object permanence.

Right now, I wish I could just go to T's house, sit on his deck with him and chat, maybe play some music together (free guitar lessons ). And...of course...get a big hug on my way out.

Have you ever tried telling your T to imagine saying that to a kid who is actually the age your inner kid feels? I have done that a few times, especially with his God stuff, to imagine me saying that stuff to Boo when she is feeling scared or alone. T said it gave him a lightbulb moment. I wonder how your T would respond if you asked him to imagine how something like that sounds to your inner little one...?

(((DF))) I don't think you're off the mark, really. For what it's worth, the reaction you're describing is exactly what I have toward my actual parents. It's just that attaching to my T, I have a different reaction (though I occasionally panic and want to tell him to f--- off as well ). Even my dad, who I intellectually know I have abandonment issues about, when I was around him, I couldn't wait to get away. I kept thinking of excuses to not even visit. I definitely tend more toward the anxious side of things, but my H is the opposite, so I can actually imagine from a close-at-hand perspective the feeling your describing, even if it's not my predominant mode. What am I saying here? Just that I think either approach to dealing with attachment is a completely understandable reaction. They're definitely different, but both get at the same thing of BS caregivers not being safe enough to ever be able to go through the stages we're still trying to address. There are probably things that your T says where if you imagine this sassy three-year-old actually being told that, she would throw a tantrum...just probably different things would set off your three-year-old for different reasons than someone else's, which is true of actual three-year-olds anyway.

((((MONTE)))))

This whole conversation brought back to me something my oldest, who is now 17, said when she was 4. We were riding in the car when she saw some older kids walking on the street without their Moms. She gasped and said, "oh, I can't believe they are out there alone without their mommys." I smiled, knowing that someday too she wouldn't want me around very much. It makes me sad too to think that there might come a day when I don't need or don't want to be around my T anymore. But that just tells me I'm not ready to go there yet. And I just push that thought right out of my mind for as long as I can.

xoxo

Liese

quote:

the pain is existential, isn't it? For me it is inescapable reality of who I am, who I was and what was and what can never, ever be.
My Ts attention and care evokes in me this despair that I am now a aging middle-aged lump.

It is beautiful in that it is a feeling of finally being tended to in such a real way, and I get a sense of..."What? Someone is willing to do this for me...at my age? How? WHY??" But it is terrible because it is a sense of, "Uh-huh...right...so this is what was missing. Imagine if I grew up with this...imagine how different life would've been..."

Monte, are you peeking into my head?

I was just thinking these same thoughts on Friday after seeing my T on Thursday. I look at myself and I'm this old, sad, pathetic middle aged lump of stuff sitting in his office going on and on about oldT and why should I get such wonderful care from this man? I struggle with deserving it. You know I have really worked on asking to get my needs met, both with oldT and my T now. BUT, the really scary part is when I ask and they do get met. I cannot handle that or accept it. I am just so uncomfortable with it and I struggle with the thought that it was my overwhelming needs that send oldT fleeing and worry that I will make that happen again. I wrestle with wondering if this all really makes a difference? Then I see the picture of his daughter on his desk and see how his face lights up when he talks about her and I feel even more sad. She is lucky to have such a wise, wonderful dad who supports her in every way.

I do with wonder who I could have turned out to be or what I could have accomplished in my life if someone had just paid some attention to me. If I had been able to move towards the attachment figures in my life instead of hiding from them in fear.

And when I get into this loop of thinking it just drags me down and makes me want to just give it up. The old question of does all of this really matter?

Thanks for sharing your sessions Monte. The way you and your T are moving closer together, physically and emotionally is beautiful and I love reading about it. It makes me feel good inside. You are doing wonderful and courageous work. You also give me so much to think about in my own therapy.

Hugs
TN

quote:

And all the warmth I took away with me from the interaction dissolved into this bigger well of self-ridicule, derision, anger at myself for getting sucked in by a convincing act etc. And anger at him for offering something so precious when it can not possibly be genuine...but has to be in order to be effective. Soon it became a sense of insult.

Monte I used to do this all the time...it's like I would feel good, then I would think, just like you- "oh that is ridiculous! How can he possibly care?" Hm I really beleived that he didn't, and maybe I was right, and maybe I was wrong...but- what I wanted to say is that, there have been many time on this forum when you spoke very tenderly to me in responses, and were so kind that something in me melted. I *know* you were being genuine. But you know that I am a grown woman with two kids? How could you talk to me so kindly and gently? I'm not...being obnoxious, I *promise*- it's just that I really wnat to know. And then- think of what you've felt when you spoke kindly to a person in some kind of inexplicable pain- like myself- and realize that your T has those very same feelings of tenderness and warmth for you. plus some, because you've been with him so long, and he surely has deep feelings of tenderness for you.

Hm, I know you already know this- but I thought I'd say it anyways, just cause.

love,

BB

BB - I was going to pick that same exact quote to respond. A twin moment.

Monte - I actually find myself wanting my T to trigger those kids lately, because I just can't get to their stuff any other way. But, given the choice between him triggering me with care (painful) and triggering me with perceived abandonment (annihilating), I'm going to ask for him to trigger me with his care. Just, you know, a personal preference.

I know that pain of the impossibility of genuine concern and connection. My poor T...I have outright accused him of just caring for me in the way he does, because it is the quickest way to unburden himself of me. Well, I told him I knew it probably wasn't true, but it felt true. Today, I was walking next door to the store and suddenly was just overwhelmed with all these statements that both my T and pastor have made about how God fully knows us and fully accepts us, about his unconditional love and how if he is a part of your relationship with another person, that person can accept and love you as well. So, of course, I am thinking, "These men only love me, because God has miraculously enabled them to do so. If not for God, they would hate everything about me." So, now all these statements I've heard for years about how "you all know that person who you just don't have it in you to love," and how God gives you the strength to do it. I feel like...in my T's life...in my pastor's life...in any relationship where I have received care...here...I am THAT person...the person who is work, who requires divine intervention, to have any love for. I picked up H from his session and T walked out while Boo and I were still in the lobby. He smiled at me, looked genuinely happy to see me, told me he was able to get me a double, 8:00 to 10:00 for tomorrow night. He is rearranging his schedule for me. He was heading out into the hall, but lingered just watching me and Boo, trying to interact with me, smiling tenderly. I started to blank, to dissociate very badly, to the point where I wasn't sure whether I really heard right about the double session and had to confirm it with him later. Him being happy to see me, him wanting to give me more than the bare minimum, more than either I or my insurance can compensate him for, wanting to meet my needs...it just seems so impossible that someone would feel that way toward me at all. And I feel rather disgusted with myself trying to receive it. Ack, I hope that stuff wasn't triggering. It really feels like a trap, though, doesn't it?

for you Monte So pleased you're back with us - I know you've been very much missed and you're right, disagreements, different views etc happen in all families irl and virtual!!!

Welcome back

Hi Monte!

Good to see you again! Glad you're back.

MTF

Hi Monte,
It's quite wonderful to have you back, you have been sorely missed.

back!

AG

Monte,

I rarely post but must come forward now to tell you how much I have missed your posts. I always loved your honesty, insightfulness, humor and simply, your words of wisdom. So glad to have you back

Monte!

Oh back back!



I have thought of you often and hoped/wished you would somehow find your way back here. I have missed you and missed reading about your incredible journey with your T. So much of what you faced and dealt with resonated with what I was facing with my current T.

Thank you for coming back. Your insight and wisdom was missed.

Hugs
TN