Hello there FOT. Sounds like this is quite an issue, if you’re questioning your therapy with this P as a result of the way he stonewalled your innocent query.

One of the first Ts I saw did something like that to me – I turned up for a session and he said, oh don’t worry if next time you come there’s a for sale sign outside the house. I said, oh are you fed up of living here then, or something like that and he went all therapisty on me and said in a really convoluted sort of way, it’s not really done for me to answer questions like that. I immediately thought, well fuck you sunshine, because it was such a weird response (to be fair, it was the first time I ran across this whole concept of ‘boundaries’ though at the time I didn’t realize that’s what it was.) He went on to ask me what my response to his response was and I actually said, well fuck you then I just felt really offended.

In retrospect he did it all wrong, HE brought up the issue in the first place and though it didn’t really register with me at the time, of course a client is going to want to know WHY. Does that mean he is moving house, where is he going, will I still be able to see him, is he giving up being a therapist… all sorts of issues, none of which he actually addressed. And I stayed feeling really disconnected, not because he was saying that Ts don’t give out personal info like that (which I can now appreciate), but more because of his attitude, it all struck me as inept and as if he didn’t really know how to handle that boundary.

Oh and I stopped seeing him not long after that

FOT I think this varies enormously from T to T – I’ve had Ts who gave absolutely nothing away about themselves, lol actually just remembered that the one who did this the most, nevertheless got surprised into answering when I was talking about a Bob Dylan song and asked totally innocently in the middle of explaining something, do you know the one I mean and he automatically said yes (I think in retrospect he realized he got caught out with that one) – that’s a bit like the situation you are describing here – where you ask something in order to elaborate on a point YOU are making, not to ferret out info about T. BUT I can see why he wouldn’t want to answer – in my case my T’s answer told me something quite important to me about him (that he knew Bob Dylan and even knew the song – so immediately that started to create a picture of what sort of person he was in real world), and that’s one thing I really DON’T want, is to form ideas of what T is like as a ‘real person’. I prefer the ‘blank screen’. But that’s horses for courses, I gather that most clients do like to get a picture of what their T is like as a person and so answers like the ones your T finally gave you would not be a problem.

All credit to your T that once he realized the context of your questions, he was quite happy to volunteer the information, it’s not like he made out you were doing something wrong by asking, even though it may have felt that way. Have you considered confronting him when he does that, saying how it makes you feel? At least that way the ground rules about this sort of question/answer dynamic will be made clearer and you won’t end up feeling like you’ve alienated him or earned his disapproval in some way. Also opening up how it makes you feel could lead to some deeper thoughts/beliefs and feelings (like, what does it mean to you to feel that you’ve asked the ‘wrong thing’… just throwing out an idea here.)

I wonder how much it matters to you whether you know these things about T, or whether it’s more the fact that he didn’t respond as we would expect people in a real world conversation to respond? Personally I don’t want anything resembling a real world interaction with my T, so I tend not to ask that sort of question (usually my ‘do you know what I am talking about’ questions are to do with points of psychology or about how I am feeling.)

I hope you can resolve this though, because it doesn’t take much to feel alienated or disconnected in therapy, and if the last time this happened was 18 months ago and it still rankles, that says to me it’s quite an important issue.

LL

Hi FOT,

I can totally understand why his reactions are leaving you feeling not so great about your therapy with him. In your situation, I would feel the same. I guess I feel like the questions you have asked him were not that personal, especially the question about having been to South Carolina. He appears to be very guarded with his information, and I think that is a mistake on his part. There is a lot to gain by a therapist sharing inconsequential information about themselves....it helps establish a connection with a client, it can help build trust.

I understand the reason therapists don't share things about their relationships ,sex life, family history, etc. But I do feel that it is helpful when they are able to be forthcoming about something as insignificant as where they've travelled on vacation. His being so guarded with this information would leave me feeling disconnected ....and a bit like he thinks I'm some kind of mental nutcase who is going to stalk him.

I have two Ts and one is rather forthcoming with this type of personal info, the other is far less revealing about her personal life and I think because of this, I tend not to ask my T2 very many questions about her personal life. I think the only personal questions I have asked my T2 are:
Where are you going on your trip?
Have you ever seen the movie Silence of the Lambs?
Are you allergic to perfume?

She answered the Silence of the Lambs and allergies questions right away and on the question about her trip, she answered, but seemed a little cautious as if to say she didn't mind answering, but lets not have a discussion about it. I had known for quite some time that she was going on a big trip but had never asked her about it until our last session before she left, and I saved the question for the very end because I suspected she would be uncomfortable with my asking and I thought if I timed the question so that it came off as casual/polite chit chat, it would feel less uncomfortable for her. I threw the question out in a casual, "Well, have a wonderful time on your trip! Where are you going, btw?" as I was walking out the door.

With my other T (T1), I don't ask her many questions because she is pretty forthcoming with information anyway without me having to ask. However, I did ask her a question once that was very clear had overstepped a boundary. It was the only question I ever asked her that got this type of response, and the question was, "Have you ever had a client die?" and she paused and then repeated what I had asked her, then paused again and finally said yes. She didnt' elaborate. I said "that must have been really difficult" and she said it was. Then silence. Crickets chirping. I had never had this type of response from her and I took it as a cue to move on to the next subject. I can see why she wouldn't want to talk about that, so I didn't take it personally that she was closed off on this subject.

However, I have asked her a lot of stuff about the vacations she takes, how was her son's birthday party, how many kids were there, what type of cake he had, etc. and she has no problem talking about that sort of stuff at all. When she goes back home to visit her family, I ask her how her trip was and she will offer up information like, "well, it was family...so you know how that can be...I am glad to be back" or another time she said, "this trip went a lot better than my last trip. You never know what you are going to get with family". I never dig deeper when she offers that info up, because I feel like that would be crossing a boundary and I don't want to get shot down. So I guess what I am saying is that I have a pretty good sense of how far I can go into my Ts personal lives before I cross their boundaries, and I gauge that based on how much they have voluntarily shared with me without my having to ask.

anyway, I am very sorry that your T is so closed off. I'm wondering if this is something you would feel okay bringing up with him.

Hmm...I don't know. I never really ask personal questions of my T, but I think that's because I've never been in the position of having/wanting to. I know a fair bit about him between his conversations with H and what he readily volunteers. He definitely seems to be a T who wants to come across as also a person. If I asked and got the cold shoulder (rather than a nice explanation of why he couldn't answer a question), I would probably shut down completely. My T doesn't tell me a ton of very personal stuff, but I have a feeling I know a lot more about him just from him volunteering info about his life, at relevant times and in helpful ways (i.e. in a way that is about me and relating to me and not about unloading his stuff). I don't think he necessarily does that with every single client all the time, but when it will build trust/safety/connection in the therapeutic relationship, he's not super-strict on it, from what I can tell. In my case, it was really important to see him as a human being before I could let myself be my imperfect self in front of him.

I will say that there have been times he couldn't answer something I've asked, but it has always been something about me, like how long I might be in therapy and his take on something in particular (which he wants to be careful in the way he approaches with me or needs to think about more, for example). I don't find myself wanting to push him for answers very often, though. He seems really open and sincere and when I do have a question I really want clarification on, it's always about me and/or us in the context of the therapeutic connection.

Hi FOT,
Do you mind my asking how old your P is? Psychoanalytic therapy has shifted somewhat in the blank slate approach, but my understanding is that it used to be a lot more severe (which is part of why in classical analysis, the patient would lay down and not even look at the therapist.) As a more humanistic approach has been incorporated, things have loosened up. So if your P is an older doctor, than stricter boundaries around personal disclosure would be the norm for him.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why it threw you and is bugging you, I am just suspecting that its not about you at all, just where he sets his boundaries. I think this is a really good thing to talk about with him.

My T was an interesting mix. He had no problem answering factual personal questions about such things as being married, having children, where he was going on vacation (if asked), and man, was he fast to whip out a picture of the grandkids if asked. Actually, pictures of his grandchildren were the only family photos on display in his office. Most of what is in his office are gifts from clients. He's actually told me that he has gotten so much over the years that he cannot display it all, but even when they're taken down, they're treated with respect.

You know that my T also worked with my H and I for marital counseling. My husband, while having a very close relationship with our T, doesn't have the kind of intense attachment issues I do, so he would think nothing of asking our T personal questions about vacation and where he was going, etc. I LOVED it because I got to sit there and get info without having to ask. There was one time my husband actually asked my therapist about his spiritual practices because he sensed they had shifted since he started working with him and our T was very open in talking to us about it. But he also mentioned during that talk that he felt like he had a very long term, close relationship with us (my husband had been seeing him on and off for almost ten years when we started going together) so that he felt comfortable being open with us.

Your story really rang true for me, because I did exactly that once. I was talking about my kids, and without really thinking about it, to check if he would understand, I asked "Do you have children?" (He wears a wedding band, so no mystery he's married.) And he immediately responded that yes, he had two sons, but both were grown and no longer at home, and I went on with my story. If I asked questions about vacations, he was very comfortable answering, but the conversations were very short. I knew about his grandkids being born because he ended up canceling some sessions because of it, and whenever he canceled a session and it wasn't patient related, he would volunteer the reason. He would also use stories and examples from his own marriage and parenting in our couples counseling. And as the relationship deepened, he did share some things about his life and issues he faced that were appropriate disclosure and definitely told to help me. When my husband's father died, he talked about the death of his own father.

Where he cut things off was in talking about his feelings. In the session in which he talked about his dad, he shared what a stoic, unemotional man his father had been, he was a war veteran and a man of few words, and that he found out he had inoperable cancer, shook the doctor's hand, thanked him for his care, then went home and laid down to die with no fuss, no muss. I was really touched by the fact that my T shared that part of himself to help my husband (it was extremely helpful) and I ended up writing him a very long, almost passionate email, in which I thanked him for the fact that he brought whatever aspect of himself into the room that we needed. That for my husband, he showed his vulnerability so that my husband could know it was ok to be vulnerable, and for me he was strong and steady because I needed to be able to rely on him. Then I told him that I felt so bad for him about his father. That since he had made his life's work about connecting and sharing emotionally with people, it must have been very difficult to not have that with his father. His response was "Thank you." We talked about it, and he was really good about hearing my frustration that I had opened up and poured my heart out and gotten nothing back. He shared with me that it was a thoughtful, deliberate response and he understood how frustrating the boundaries could be. I once asked him if he liked me, fairly early on, and he responded that I was a likeable person. He could talk about our relationship being a loving one but he never said I love you. I said it to him a number of times. He was just really adept at keeping his feelings out of the room.

I remember once when I was really struggling with the boundaries (for the umpteenth time) and was in really serious pain about therapy being it, that he told me that he could not allow himself to need me because then we would end up in a mess and it would be the abuse all over again. And you know what, there was a glimmer of what it cost him when he said that. In the end, I was very clear that he did what he did because he was driven by what was best for me.

It's actually very weird because on one level, I really don't know him very well. I don't know his favorite color, or what movies he likes, or how he takes his coffee or even if he's a morning person or a night owl. But on another level, I know him very deeply and on a level I think very few people probably know him. I do believe that my T would offer any patient who walked through his door what he offered me, but I also think we went to a level that not everyone, or even most people go to. He was just the perfect match for me theraputically. So it's incredibly intimate, it's just that it runs mainly in one direction.

I also found that he got more open as we got closer to the end, especially from the standpoint of being a therapist. I had started volunteering on the phone line and would talk to him about difficult calls, or getting triggered, or learning to hold my boundaries. It really helped me to understand the view from his side of the couch so to speak and as I shared that he was pretty open to confirming my impressions. There was a large mentoring factor near the end.

I'm sorry, I am missing him alot, so I have went on at great length, because it's nice to be able to remember and talk about him. Thanks for asking.

AG

FOT,
I realized something when reading your response which was that the two situations with your
T/P both sprang from you asking for information, versus them deciding to disclose it.

When people ask us a question, we do not have to stop and consider the effects of our disclosure; we instinctively share what we feel comfortable sharing. For example, there is a vast difference between the cashier at Dunkin' Donuts asking me "How are you doing?" and my best friend at the office (who is one of my closest friends period) asking me the same question. One is going to get "fine, thanks" or "hanging in there" while the other is going to get a detailed run down of exactly how I'm doing and what I'm feeling. But if you think about it, I'm not thinking of THEM when I'm deciding what to answer, I'm thinking of ME and my comfort level of how vulnerable I am willing to be with a stranger versus a close friend.

However, a therapist HAS to stop and consciously think through the effect of any personal information they reveal. So when they decide to self-disclose, they have already thought through (hopefully! ) the effect of what they're going to say and whether it constitutes a boundary crossing (deliberate for the client's good) or a boundary violation (not good for the client). But when you ask a question, part of determining how they answer does have to do with your motivation in asking the question. That is the only way they can make a determination (on the fly, poor things!) as to how to answer. So I don't think the hesitation is about not trusting you, it's about having to think through and be conscious of what they are doing. It's part of the oddness of the theraputic relationship.

And thank you for being so gracious about hearing about my T.



AG

FOT, I hope you did decide to keep your appointment after all, just wondering how everything is going?

LL