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Hello Monte,
Please don't delete this post. So many meaty thoughts and thought provoking ideas in here. I find I have a lot that I want to say in reply, but my thoughts are all jumbled. It may take me a little while to experience them in an organized enough way to type out something coherent, and meanwhile my one year old is demanding my attention. However, I just wanted to say that I think this was a great thread to start and I will return to it later, "good Lord willing and the creek don't rise."
Please don't delete this post. So many meaty thoughts and thought provoking ideas in here. I find I have a lot that I want to say in reply, but my thoughts are all jumbled. It may take me a little while to experience them in an organized enough way to type out something coherent, and meanwhile my one year old is demanding my attention. However, I just wanted to say that I think this was a great thread to start and I will return to it later, "good Lord willing and the creek don't rise."
Monte firstly want to say I’m really sorry you had to delete your posts – I noticed it yesterday and wondered why, so thank you for explaining. I wish you hadn’t though as your posts are so insightful and helpful and just, well, plain interesting.
Lol well I’m not sure you’ve been hit with the stupid stick – everything you say sounds perfectly rational to me. And who knows, maybe in x amount of time therapy will transform from a prescribed and proscribed set of theories about the workings of the mind to a much more humanistically oriented focus on being a real relationship (more ‘real’ than it currently can be). What you’re describing puts me in mind of a kind of foster parent set up – reparenting in the real sense of the word, with clients and Ts becoming important parts of each other’s worlds.
BUT (you knew there’d be a but didn’t you
) I can’t help thinking about how therapy generally is a one way street, it’s all about client needs primarily and that’s a pretty big drain on the therapist. They can be caring and understanding and accepting insofar as the amount of time they are required to give emotionally is limited and insofar as they can get their own needs met elsewhere. There may well be people eminently capable of continuing to give with no thought of their own needs and wants in relationship, but blurring the current boundaries to the extent you are describing might well result in enmeshment, enactments, unhealthy dependency, outright emotional damage...
I’m also inclined to query why all the different levels of need you are talking about (spiritual, physical, social and emotional) have to be met by one person alone? Personally that would terrify the hell out of me, to have only one person available and responsible for meeting all my needs across the board like that. Eggs and baskets springs to mind
Not sure I’ve really addressed what you’re saying here Monte, I may be reacting out of a knee jerk response without having properly thought about what you’re saying, so I’d be interested to hear what others think too.
And for what it’s worth, I hope that your fear of posting stuff about therapy that seems to run counter to the established ethos here about what constitutes ‘good’ therapy doesn’t stop you continuing to post – it’s really good to hear about the way different therapy works for individuals. Just because something is the status quo doesn’t make it ipso facto ‘correct’
LL
p.s. sorry I just went and posted a mass of replies on other coffee talk threads and have pushed this one way down. Hopefully it won't get lost
Lol well I’m not sure you’ve been hit with the stupid stick – everything you say sounds perfectly rational to me. And who knows, maybe in x amount of time therapy will transform from a prescribed and proscribed set of theories about the workings of the mind to a much more humanistically oriented focus on being a real relationship (more ‘real’ than it currently can be). What you’re describing puts me in mind of a kind of foster parent set up – reparenting in the real sense of the word, with clients and Ts becoming important parts of each other’s worlds.
BUT (you knew there’d be a but didn’t you
) I can’t help thinking about how therapy generally is a one way street, it’s all about client needs primarily and that’s a pretty big drain on the therapist. They can be caring and understanding and accepting insofar as the amount of time they are required to give emotionally is limited and insofar as they can get their own needs met elsewhere. There may well be people eminently capable of continuing to give with no thought of their own needs and wants in relationship, but blurring the current boundaries to the extent you are describing might well result in enmeshment, enactments, unhealthy dependency, outright emotional damage...I’m also inclined to query why all the different levels of need you are talking about (spiritual, physical, social and emotional) have to be met by one person alone? Personally that would terrify the hell out of me, to have only one person available and responsible for meeting all my needs across the board like that. Eggs and baskets springs to mind
Not sure I’ve really addressed what you’re saying here Monte, I may be reacting out of a knee jerk response without having properly thought about what you’re saying, so I’d be interested to hear what others think too.
And for what it’s worth, I hope that your fear of posting stuff about therapy that seems to run counter to the established ethos here about what constitutes ‘good’ therapy doesn’t stop you continuing to post – it’s really good to hear about the way different therapy works for individuals. Just because something is the status quo doesn’t make it ipso facto ‘correct’
LL
p.s. sorry I just went and posted a mass of replies on other coffee talk threads and have pushed this one way down. Hopefully it won't get lost
quote:But regardless of being welcome, I am finding it hard to be here and constantly weighing up the worth of it and keep deleting my posts....
Hi Monte, I have the same problem....what is it???!
quote:I find myself feeling I must restrain my expression of my therapy experiences and responses in order to a) not appear insensitive to the agonies others have within therapy, and b) not somehow be at odds with the established notion here of what 'good, healthy therapy' looks like. It frustrates me, though of course I am probably more bothered by myself than anyone else here is.
Again, similar, for me....BUT, I wanted to say that I TOTALLY VALUE your posts, so please keep posting. I have come to realize, while here, that all T's are so different, as are we, as clients and human beings, and it is in acceptance, of ourselves and others, that we can go through this life.
Loved reading your post, Monte.
I agree that not all those needs are probably meant to be fulfilled in one person, but sometimes I wish there were people whose job was to sponsor others in the way you speak. Almost more like a mentor than a therapist. I have had a couple of those people come in and out of my life. I would love if T could be that for me. I do think, in my case, I have a T who seems himself as more than just this professional in my life for whatever minimum amount of time it takes for me to not be writhing in pain. But, as we don't live in the same community, I don't think the relationship would ever transform like I wish it would. I would love to be able to play in a worship band with him, for example. But, he lives two hours away. Probably a good thing, so I don't stalk him.
Anyway, it's a nice idea. It warms my heart to think of a person who would want to be that for others. Kind of the way I try to be for my younger siblings, although am not healthy enough to be what they need or deserve. I don't think you have been stupid-sticked at all!
((((Monte))))
I agree that not all those needs are probably meant to be fulfilled in one person, but sometimes I wish there were people whose job was to sponsor others in the way you speak. Almost more like a mentor than a therapist. I have had a couple of those people come in and out of my life. I would love if T could be that for me. I do think, in my case, I have a T who seems himself as more than just this professional in my life for whatever minimum amount of time it takes for me to not be writhing in pain. But, as we don't live in the same community, I don't think the relationship would ever transform like I wish it would. I would love to be able to play in a worship band with him, for example. But, he lives two hours away. Probably a good thing, so I don't stalk him.
Anyway, it's a nice idea. It warms my heart to think of a person who would want to be that for others. Kind of the way I try to be for my younger siblings, although am not healthy enough to be what they need or deserve. I don't think you have been stupid-sticked at all!
((((Monte))))
Monte,
I'm just going to reply quickly without enough thought about the many issues you've raised to encourage you to leave your post up. I think it sounds ideal to have long-term relationships of 'charges' but I think so little of humanity lives ideally. I think of the many unusual therapies of the 1970s which involved much greater involvement of therapist in 'charges' lives to the extent of living with and reparenting many aspects of people's lives. In a lot of cases those therapies ended up doing more damage to people because of the eventual needs of the therapist impacting the relationships. Need resulting in enmeshment, reenactments, emotional damage and abuse. So few people can live ideally for all of their lives and all of the time so I fear there would be not nearly enough therapists for all the 'charges' needing help. I think what allows most therapists to be good enough is the limited time they have to be fully available and attuned to others. How few people can be really available connected and attuned parents even most of the time. Most of us (and I'm very aware of myself) fail too often in part because our children are always with us and always need us.
That said I would like to say I like hearing about other people's therapy relationships precisely because of the differences. I dont' think there should be a "correct" method of therapy. I often refine my thoughts of what I would like my therapeutic relationship to involve based on other people stories and then my own experiences after trying out new things so please continue telling your story, it is your own and important because of that.
love and hugs,
I'm just going to reply quickly without enough thought about the many issues you've raised to encourage you to leave your post up. I think it sounds ideal to have long-term relationships of 'charges' but I think so little of humanity lives ideally. I think of the many unusual therapies of the 1970s which involved much greater involvement of therapist in 'charges' lives to the extent of living with and reparenting many aspects of people's lives. In a lot of cases those therapies ended up doing more damage to people because of the eventual needs of the therapist impacting the relationships. Need resulting in enmeshment, reenactments, emotional damage and abuse. So few people can live ideally for all of their lives and all of the time so I fear there would be not nearly enough therapists for all the 'charges' needing help. I think what allows most therapists to be good enough is the limited time they have to be fully available and attuned to others. How few people can be really available connected and attuned parents even most of the time. Most of us (and I'm very aware of myself) fail too often in part because our children are always with us and always need us.
That said I would like to say I like hearing about other people's therapy relationships precisely because of the differences. I dont' think there should be a "correct" method of therapy. I often refine my thoughts of what I would like my therapeutic relationship to involve based on other people stories and then my own experiences after trying out new things so please continue telling your story, it is your own and important because of that.
love and hugs,
Hi Monte,
I've seen your name some months back "I believe" until recently again...it's good to find "connection" with you/your post. So much thought provoking stuff...I don't know what to say exactly but I feel all of what you say. I am hoping that someday everything will come together "for all" but for me personally courage escapes me at this time for much change to occur but I know what I need to do from comments to me on some of my initiated posts...also I can't go due to recovering from this surgery. What's really dumb for me is almost like "scheduling my emotions" after recovery. I wonder if I will get it right but I almost doubt it. I thought I had read that you had come back to counseling after having taken a break and that you had the attachment monster thing...I may be wrong. I could go on and on but I would just be repeating what you said. I hope you will continue to post because I find it really valuable.
Hopeful
I've seen your name some months back "I believe" until recently again...it's good to find "connection" with you/your post. So much thought provoking stuff...I don't know what to say exactly but I feel all of what you say. I am hoping that someday everything will come together "for all" but for me personally courage escapes me at this time for much change to occur but I know what I need to do from comments to me on some of my initiated posts...also I can't go due to recovering from this surgery. What's really dumb for me is almost like "scheduling my emotions" after recovery. I wonder if I will get it right but I almost doubt it. I thought I had read that you had come back to counseling after having taken a break and that you had the attachment monster thing...I may be wrong. I could go on and on but I would just be repeating what you said. I hope you will continue to post because I find it really valuable.
Hopeful
Hi Monte,
No one hit you with the stupid stick because you and your posts are intelligent, thoughtful, insightful and thought provoking. I do know that you struggle with staying here and with leaving up your posts and I do understand that you get scared at times. But I want to reassure you that you are very much wanted and respected here and your opinions are valued and needed. So I do hope you can get better at resisting the "urge to purge" your wonderful posts.
As someone who has been struggling lately with touch in therapy I have appreciated and looked forward to your posts. You may remember a while back we spoke of "show and tell" as a tool to get therapy moving again. That was a very helpful conversation. I feel that some of our challenges are the same, even though our therapists may employ different methods to help us.
I especially wanted to reply to you because I know you may feel upset that you are receiving things from your T that were denied to me by my T, mainly the ability to touch and hug and have that as a way to help me through some difficult material and as comfort in trying sessions. Please do not worry about that at all. I am not resentful of what you have with your T and I'm not triggered by reading about it. So I hope you do not censor your posts and/or stop posting about your experiences. It makes me feel really good to read about what you are doing in therapy and to see how far you have come.
And don't forget, I do have the option of leaving my T for one who allows touch in therapy (although that is kind of an arkward question to ask in an interview
) but I won't because once I get past the hurt, pain and feelings of rejection and anger, I know my T is a wonderful T, he is smart and strong and ethical (even if he is not warm and fuzzy) and he has pretty much granted everything else I have asked for, even mediating that session with oldT which he had NEVER done before with a client. And under all the hurt and grief of losing the option of a hug, there is this unknown sense that he will take care of me somehow and won't leave me alone. I am actually curious to know what he CAN offer my little scared kid so she will come out to talk to him. At least he is not scared of HER like oldT was.
So I guess this is a roundabout way of my trying to make you feel comfortable about posting what you feel despite what is happening with anyone else here or what their stance on "good" therapy may be.
Bottom line is that we are all unique and have different T's and our experiences of what we need and how we work with those Ts are unique to us and there is absolutely nothing wrong with sharing them.
Sending you lots of hugs,
TN
No one hit you with the stupid stick because you and your posts are intelligent, thoughtful, insightful and thought provoking. I do know that you struggle with staying here and with leaving up your posts and I do understand that you get scared at times. But I want to reassure you that you are very much wanted and respected here and your opinions are valued and needed. So I do hope you can get better at resisting the "urge to purge" your wonderful posts.
As someone who has been struggling lately with touch in therapy I have appreciated and looked forward to your posts. You may remember a while back we spoke of "show and tell" as a tool to get therapy moving again. That was a very helpful conversation. I feel that some of our challenges are the same, even though our therapists may employ different methods to help us.
I especially wanted to reply to you because I know you may feel upset that you are receiving things from your T that were denied to me by my T, mainly the ability to touch and hug and have that as a way to help me through some difficult material and as comfort in trying sessions. Please do not worry about that at all. I am not resentful of what you have with your T and I'm not triggered by reading about it. So I hope you do not censor your posts and/or stop posting about your experiences. It makes me feel really good to read about what you are doing in therapy and to see how far you have come.
And don't forget, I do have the option of leaving my T for one who allows touch in therapy (although that is kind of an arkward question to ask in an interview
) but I won't because once I get past the hurt, pain and feelings of rejection and anger, I know my T is a wonderful T, he is smart and strong and ethical (even if he is not warm and fuzzy) and he has pretty much granted everything else I have asked for, even mediating that session with oldT which he had NEVER done before with a client. And under all the hurt and grief of losing the option of a hug, there is this unknown sense that he will take care of me somehow and won't leave me alone. I am actually curious to know what he CAN offer my little scared kid so she will come out to talk to him. At least he is not scared of HER like oldT was.So I guess this is a roundabout way of my trying to make you feel comfortable about posting what you feel despite what is happening with anyone else here or what their stance on "good" therapy may be.
Bottom line is that we are all unique and have different T's and our experiences of what we need and how we work with those Ts are unique to us and there is absolutely nothing wrong with sharing them.
Sending you lots of hugs,
TN
Hi there Monte,
I'm up for adoption so sign me up if you find anyone willing to take me on. Is the thing that bothers you that they don't care about us as much as we care about them? Or are you looking for a sense of belonging? A sense of belonging is a basic emotional need. I told my T that I need to belong to him. And he responded that he is committed to working with me. 
That worked for me. I don't know about you but I never had a sense of belonging with my FOO and spent many many years trying to get away from them only to wind up full circle, living a mile away and still plagued with that sense of not really belonging to them. I should feel as though I belong to my H and kids. 
But then again, maybe that's one of those unmet childhood needs that needs to heal before I can have that with my kids, and maybe H.
Anyway, just throwing some stuff out there to see if anything sticks. Maybe you CAN get what you need from your T if you know what it is that you want and you ask him for it. Maybe it's not as off-bounds as you think. I keep thinking and thinking about this issue, especially around the touch area, but in regards to all therapy and that is the grieving what we didn't get in childhood and not getting it from T because we can never make up for what we didn't get and because they will not then know what it is they didn't get? Did I say that right? I'm trying to compare it to someone who didn't have enough food as a child. And then as an adult are we saying that that person has to grieve what they didn't get but we can't feed them because then they will not know what it is they need to grieve? Does that make sense? Or is it enough that at first it is denied so that they learn what it is they are missing but then we can give it to them? Or it is just all T's have boundaries in terms of what they are willing to give and what they are not willing to give? And they rationalize it all (especially around touch) by saying that it has to be denied because we can't make up for what we didn't get? My parents didn't have a lot of money but for some reason, that just doesn't seem to hurt as much as the other stuff and I don't feel a need to grieve it. I just can't wrap my head around it.
I know you were just doing some wishful thinking but that kind of person you describe would almost have to have no needs at all, almost like a missionary. Maybe a new order of missionaries could be created for all those who need to be reparented or a group home formed for adults with attachment injuries. That's probably not what you were thinking about. Or could they just share a meal at the T's office? Or schedule some time to just watch tv together? Or play together? Or snuggle together? Whatever it is that was missing from childhood and needed to make them a whole person? I know I'd like to play a little more with my T. Or maybe watch a movie together. Why does therapy always have to be so serious?
I'm up for adoption so sign me up if you find anyone willing to take me on.
Is the thing that bothers you that they don't care about us as much as we care about them? Or are you looking for a sense of belonging? A sense of belonging is a basic emotional need. I told my T that I need to belong to him. And he responded that he is committed to working with me. That worked for me. I don't know about you but I never had a sense of belonging with my FOO and spent many many years trying to get away from them only to wind up full circle, living a mile away and still plagued with that sense of not really belonging to them. I should feel as though I belong to my H and kids. But then again, maybe that's one of those unmet childhood needs that needs to heal before I can have that with my kids, and maybe H. Anyway, just throwing some stuff out there to see if anything sticks. Maybe you CAN get what you need from your T if you know what it is that you want and you ask him for it. Maybe it's not as off-bounds as you think. I keep thinking and thinking about this issue, especially around the touch area, but in regards to all therapy and that is the grieving what we didn't get in childhood and not getting it from T because we can never make up for what we didn't get and because they will not then know what it is they didn't get? Did I say that right? I'm trying to compare it to someone who didn't have enough food as a child. And then as an adult are we saying that that person has to grieve what they didn't get but we can't feed them because then they will not know what it is they need to grieve? Does that make sense? Or is it enough that at first it is denied so that they learn what it is they are missing but then we can give it to them? Or it is just all T's have boundaries in terms of what they are willing to give and what they are not willing to give? And they rationalize it all (especially around touch) by saying that it has to be denied because we can't make up for what we didn't get? My parents didn't have a lot of money but for some reason, that just doesn't seem to hurt as much as the other stuff and I don't feel a need to grieve it. I just can't wrap my head around it.
I know you were just doing some wishful thinking but that kind of person you describe would almost have to have no needs at all, almost like a missionary. Maybe a new order of missionaries could be created for all those who need to be reparented or a group home formed for adults with attachment injuries. That's probably not what you were thinking about. Or could they just share a meal at the T's office? Or schedule some time to just watch tv together? Or play together? Or snuggle together? Whatever it is that was missing from childhood and needed to make them a whole person? I know I'd like to play a little more with my T. Or maybe watch a movie together. Why does therapy always have to be so serious?
quote:I think I could almost say I don't believe in therapy. What I can maybe believe in is a person who is trained to understand how a life can go wrong, who exhibits empathy and a genuine desire to care for others. I believe in this type or person offering love and connection and genuine affection to a needy, wounded one. I believe in the healing power of that. . .
Just wanted to say that I could have written that myself. I am actually very skeptical about "therapy" in general, for what I believe are very valid reasons. For one thing, the history of psychiatry (with which the history of psychology is much entwined) is rife with stories and incidents of abuse, oppression, stigmatization, unjust involuntary commitments, and dubiously ethical practices of various sorts. Things have improved a good deal by now, but who knows which commonly accepted therapeutic practices of today will be looked back on with horror by people a hundred years from now? We do know that people suffering emotional damage as a result of therapy gone bad is by no means unheard of or even rare. . . and I suspect it may be a LOT more common than most people think.
Even the most ardent believers in therapy will concede that it only "works" if you are ready to change and have found the right therapist. However, people who are ready to change do so all the time without the help of therapy. Change, can, and does arise spontaneously from the human spirit, although I believe this happens more easily when it is facilitated by relationship with a caring other who is strong in areas where we are weak. Some people find this relationship with a therapist, but imo, that is by no means the only context in which a similarly healing relationship can arise.
So, why am I in therapy, you may ask? Partly because I felt I needed help and therapists are the culturally approved healers of our day. Our secular priests and modern witch doctors, I sometimes think.
I also find the various models and theories for interpreting human behavior fascinating. Having the opportunity to talk my life and problems over with someone who is knowledgeable about these was very tempting. Also, I was at/am at a point in my life where I was desperate for someone to talk to about problems I couldn't discuss easily with anyone else in my life. So, I found myself, somewhat to my own surprise, arrived in a therapist's office, and I'm sticking around somewhat long term because I became fascinated by the experience and partly because I've become mired in attachment issues. Anyway, I'm not sure you will find any of this relevant to what you were saying in the original post, but I offer it as a means of conveying (hopefully) that I am very much in sympathy with the spirit of your post. Look forward to hearing more from you!
HIC
quote:The deal for most: I hurt emotionally so I pay to see a professional who I must bond with in order to trust deeply enough to pour my heart out to and in the process I may attach powerfully to him/her, but the contact will only ever be painfully limited. He /she may seek to impact my life with care and even a degree of love, but generally he/she will not want to stay in my life. He/she may become one of the most important people in my life, but I will be little more than a time in an appointment book. And all the rest of it. Imbalance...incongruity. But imbalance and incongruity are not part of the natural scheme of things, are they? Nature by design is a thing of balance and harmony where one thing compliments another and things make sense. How then can this relationship of imbalance and incongruity actually return harmony and stability to a messed-up life?
When I read this it sounded like one of my mind ramblings! I think I am slow to heal because I sit in her office thinking about how I am paying her for this hour and she could really care less! I don't think this is true on a daily basis - it's when I get to her office I start thinking this....those defenses of mine kicking up!
A fascinating post, and a fascinating discussion. this is why I love this place. I haven't had time to read in depth unfortunately, so bear with me if I repeat what has been said elsewhere. Monte, you must have been reading my mind when you wrote this post, because, I swear I have been thinking the *exact same thing* lately. I'm also just not sure that I actually believe in therapy! I think at best, therapy seriously limps in comparison to spiritual direction, (with a talented and boundaried director, of course) for example. Therapy limps in comparison to friendship. Therapy limps in comparison to spousal love. Therapy limps in comparison to real parental love. I guess where therapy doesn't limp- is that there are very, very few people in this world who are saintly enough to love others as we need to be loved by others- for free. What a sad reality. So, we take ourselves to therapy to try to put some patches on our gaping wounds, and learn some new skills, an find a bit of comfort in being understood from time to time, and...we get by like that.
I think you would find the Dr. Conrad Baars book that I am constantly harping about on here, to be a really interesting read- this psychiatrist said that traditional therapy doesn't help certain people, that there are certain people that can only be helped by being loved. He went on to have many successes in healing people with something he termed "Deprivation Neuroses" which was later termed Emotional Deprivation Disorder. It cannot be found in the DSM. He describes vividly, many case studies of clients who appear to have absolutely no classic signs of repression at all, or if they do it is secondary- and states that it is becoming more and more uncommon in recent times for people to present with typical repression, which psychoanalysis was originally developed to address. "Healing the Unaffirmed" is the book, and also "Feeling and Healing Your Emotions." What I found fascinating about the former, was that the case studies so accurately described myself, and many who post on this forum- the poetry in the back by clients which he encouraged them to write made me weep, the artwork on the websites is amazing- etc. The movement here seems to be towards affirming others- *provided* you have first received adequate affirmation yourself- whether you are a therapist for a living, or not. Therapists who practice this type of therapy need to be compensated since it is there means of living, but the rest of needn't get paid, to extend a loving, helping hand to others. To give until it hurts a bit- that's the basic Christian message (and other religions as well, of course)and if it were ever to become a widespread way of life, then I have no doubt that our society would have no need of therapists, personally. (my opinions- of course) Because- you *do* have to have a certain sense of self-love, that comes first from another seeing your worth, and vlauing you as good- to enter into therapy in the first place, and many go there just looking for that first step, only to discover that it isn't to be found there. Yeah, it is a sad state of affairs.
LL said:
And what you say here is so true LL, because- it is what we see in everyday relationships that are not therapeutic- it's what we all do to eachother, all the time, sadly- and are the kind of things that send most looking for a relationship where that won't happen! Looking for love as they say, and maybe, in all the wrong places...? idk.
I guess I just do not think that therapy is a panacea, but that it can help, somewhat. What I have come to realize, is that for me it is just, "my safe place where once a week, I get to say whatever I want to for an hour to another human being." Some get lucky and find the "right combination" that unlocks the door and sets them free- but I suspect that most struggle just as much with the therapy relationship as they do their everyday relationships.
Incidentally, I'm kind of looking after a friend's mom, from time to time- and she is seriously ill- she has incurable depression- we have her over on weekends, and let me tell you- I know I fail this woman terribly, but there is nothing else that I can do for her but my best. I'm no T, but she wants to go to church, so she comes with us- we do laugh and work, and play together, and she has become a very good friend. But it is no ideal situation, and I am well-aware of that all the time! I think there is some attachment to me, but I cannot help it- it is the way it has to be, I can't cut her off- she has needs. What are your thoughts, Monte, or others? Is this a potentially damaging situation for this woman? I sincerely worry about it, and do not know what to do! So we just try, to love her and welcome her into our family life as best we can offer, and so do others in our church, and we see where it goes. I'm sure that there are many, many people here and elsewhere who find themselves in a similar bind.
I think what you are describing and longing for is a society where all human lives are valued and treated compassionately, nurtured, welcomed and loved and valued. Basically, we just need more love on this planet, and less neglect of our fellow human beings. As a hippy friend of mine used to say.."spread love.."
Anyway- sorry so long!
Much love,
Beebs
What a sad reality. So, we take ourselves to therapy to try to put some patches on our gaping wounds, and learn some new skills, an find a bit of comfort in being understood from time to time, and...we get by like that. I think you would find the Dr. Conrad Baars book that I am constantly harping about on here, to be a really interesting read- this psychiatrist said that traditional therapy doesn't help certain people, that there are certain people that can only be helped by being loved. He went on to have many successes in healing people with something he termed "Deprivation Neuroses" which was later termed Emotional Deprivation Disorder. It cannot be found in the DSM. He describes vividly, many case studies of clients who appear to have absolutely no classic signs of repression at all, or if they do it is secondary- and states that it is becoming more and more uncommon in recent times for people to present with typical repression, which psychoanalysis was originally developed to address. "Healing the Unaffirmed" is the book, and also "Feeling and Healing Your Emotions." What I found fascinating about the former, was that the case studies so accurately described myself, and many who post on this forum- the poetry in the back by clients which he encouraged them to write made me weep, the artwork on the websites is amazing- etc. The movement here seems to be towards affirming others- *provided* you have first received adequate affirmation yourself- whether you are a therapist for a living, or not. Therapists who practice this type of therapy need to be compensated since it is there means of living, but the rest of needn't get paid, to extend a loving, helping hand to others. To give until it hurts a bit- that's the basic Christian message (and other religions as well, of course)and if it were ever to become a widespread way of life, then I have no doubt that our society would have no need of therapists, personally. (my opinions- of course) Because- you *do* have to have a certain sense of self-love, that comes first from another seeing your worth, and vlauing you as good- to enter into therapy in the first place, and many go there just looking for that first step, only to discover that it isn't to be found there. Yeah, it is a sad state of affairs.
LL said:
quote:there may well be people eminently capable of continuing to give with no thought of their own needs and wants in relationship, but blurring the current boundaries to the extent you are describing might well result in enmeshment, enactments, unhealthy dependency, outright emotional damage...
And what you say here is so true LL, because- it is what we see in everyday relationships that are not therapeutic- it's what we all do to eachother, all the time, sadly- and are the kind of things that send most looking for a relationship where that won't happen! Looking for love as they say, and maybe, in all the wrong places...? idk.
I guess I just do not think that therapy is a panacea, but that it can help, somewhat. What I have come to realize, is that for me it is just, "my safe place where once a week, I get to say whatever I want to for an hour to another human being." Some get lucky and find the "right combination" that unlocks the door and sets them free- but I suspect that most struggle just as much with the therapy relationship as they do their everyday relationships.
Incidentally, I'm kind of looking after a friend's mom, from time to time- and she is seriously ill- she has incurable depression- we have her over on weekends, and let me tell you- I know I fail this woman terribly, but there is nothing else that I can do for her but my best. I'm no T, but she wants to go to church, so she comes with us- we do laugh and work, and play together, and she has become a very good friend. But it is no ideal situation, and I am well-aware of that all the time! I think there is some attachment to me, but I cannot help it- it is the way it has to be, I can't cut her off- she has needs. What are your thoughts, Monte, or others? Is this a potentially damaging situation for this woman? I sincerely worry about it, and do not know what to do! So we just try, to love her and welcome her into our family life as best we can offer, and so do others in our church, and we see where it goes. I'm sure that there are many, many people here and elsewhere who find themselves in a similar bind.
I think what you are describing and longing for is a society where all human lives are valued and treated compassionately, nurtured, welcomed and loved and valued. Basically, we just need more love on this planet, and less neglect of our fellow human beings. As a hippy friend of mine used to say.."spread love.."
Anyway- sorry so long!
Much love,
Beebs
Arg. I now feel like I am tooting my own horn. (Aren't I saintly?) I really just don't know if this situation will damage this person. Knowing what I do about therapy- it concerns me that there are not adequate boundaries in place, since it is a friendship- this lady needs a lot of cuddles, and I give her cuddles, for example- is that wrong?
I guess I was struck by the fact that the needs you are speaking of, should often be met in the by family for example, where a person with serious mental illness wouldn't be institutionalized, but kept at home, with loved ones around, and given extra care,, valued an taken care of- whether they ever get better or not. And the needs you speak of are often met, by unseen people, like priests, ministers, othger spiritual leaders, and theri church communities. But that maybe, wouldn't negate the value of that person also having a therapist. I think the answer tends to be that many avenues of support are necessary, and society has an obligation to cherish those who are weaker- it is an abuse when it does not live up to this. (IMO) But- I'm far from saintly, Monte- if you knew how many needier people than I, I have neglected and failed in multiple ways, including my own family- you could hardly canonize me for happening to be in the right place at the right time, and being unable to not do right by this particular person...
much love to you-
BB
is that wrong? I guess I was struck by the fact that the needs you are speaking of, should often be met in the by family for example, where a person with serious mental illness wouldn't be institutionalized, but kept at home, with loved ones around, and given extra care,, valued an taken care of- whether they ever get better or not. And the needs you speak of are often met, by unseen people, like priests, ministers, othger spiritual leaders, and theri church communities. But that maybe, wouldn't negate the value of that person also having a therapist. I think the answer tends to be that many avenues of support are necessary, and society has an obligation to cherish those who are weaker- it is an abuse when it does not live up to this. (IMO) But- I'm far from saintly, Monte- if you knew how many needier people than I, I have neglected and failed in multiple ways, including my own family- you could hardly canonize me for happening to be in the right place at the right time, and being unable to not do right by this particular person...
much love to you-
BB
Hey Monte,
It's great to read such thought provoking stuff here - thank you for posting about this. Sorry I'm a bit late.
I don't have much to add to what's already been said, but I just wanted to mention something. I often think of Ts as teachers who teach us to find meaningful relationships outside of those professional boundaries. Sometimes, we might get lucky and just happen upon a great person for a friend or significant other, but most of the time, if we are stumbling around the world with our wounds guiding us, we'll end up in hurtful situations. That's why it would be so easy for a T to just be our friend, because most of them (the good ones) can just know what we need without us saying a whole lot. But that would be cheating us out of finding rich relationships with other people, too, because we wouldn't be learning how to recognize what we need and seek it out.
That being said, it doesn't change the fact that therapy can be damn painful when we are in the midst of it. And it's certainly not unreasonable to question it.
Hugs to you, Monte..
It's great to read such thought provoking stuff here - thank you for posting about this. Sorry I'm a bit late.
I don't have much to add to what's already been said, but I just wanted to mention something. I often think of Ts as teachers who teach us to find meaningful relationships outside of those professional boundaries. Sometimes, we might get lucky and just happen upon a great person for a friend or significant other, but most of the time, if we are stumbling around the world with our wounds guiding us, we'll end up in hurtful situations. That's why it would be so easy for a T to just be our friend, because most of them (the good ones) can just know what we need without us saying a whole lot. But that would be cheating us out of finding rich relationships with other people, too, because we wouldn't be learning how to recognize what we need and seek it out.
That being said, it doesn't change the fact that therapy can be damn painful when we are in the midst of it. And it's certainly not unreasonable to question it.
Hugs to you, Monte..
Thank you for acknowledging my humility at the top of page two, Monte. I do want the world to know. (you are too funny!)
I think the real deal is that limpy old therapy just plain sucks. It really, really, really, really sucks. I have a serious love/hate relationship with it. Mostly hate. I think BG once said on here that she joked with her T saying: "because we both know that therapy is supposed to feel good!" I laughed pretty hard when I read that one...
Beebs
I do want the world to know. (you are too funny!)I think the real deal is that limpy old therapy just plain sucks. It really, really, really, really sucks. I have a serious love/hate relationship with it. Mostly hate. I think BG once said on here that she joked with her T saying: "because we both know that therapy is supposed to feel good!" I laughed pretty hard when I read that one...
Beebs
(((Monte)))
Sorry I missed the posts you deleted. Knock it off, will ya!!!??? Hope you're doing well.
Hugs,
MTF
Sorry I missed the posts you deleted. Knock it off, will ya!!!???
Hope you're doing well.Hugs,
MTF
Oh Monte, that it toooo sad to miss all those appointments with T. I would be going crazy. I remember after my surgery I went to see oldT on day 4 and was not supposed to be driving but he was only 1 mile from my house (1.6 km?) and so I didn't take my painkillers and drove. Let's just say it was not a good session.
Can you have someone drive you there or even take a taxi? I'm sad for you.
I do hope you are feeling better and it was nothing too serious and that you recover well and quickly. Sending you some chocolate cake to pass the time and a good book. Maybe some
TN
Can you have someone drive you there or even take a taxi? I'm sad for you.
I do hope you are feeling better and it was nothing too serious and that you recover well and quickly. Sending you some chocolate cake to pass the time and a good book. Maybe some
TN
(((Monte))) I was thinking like TN, could anyone drive you to those appointments? It's hard to skip. I often worry if I ever have a big break, I will somehow use it to just bail entirely, to avoid the pain that the attachment drags out. So, if I ever got detached enough during a break, I might be afraid to go back...
(((((Monte)))
Yikes that is quite a break. I hope that you will be able to re-establish the connection you've worked so hard on this time. I'm glad that you feel confident that it will be ok when you go back, It might be that a break will actually help things along, but- I relate to that uneasy sense of not really caring about it in one way. I have a short break coming up with Cowboy, and I am surprised that I'm not in the least bothered by it, beyond a vague sort of disappointment that I've rather expected to being forgotten, and that Cowboy was surp[risingly good about not forgetting- but this time he did.
anyway- I guess I can just realte to the mixed feelings you seem to be having. I'm really sad that you have to miss these appointments due to not being able to drive. I wish there was a way around that for you.
(((((Monte))))))
Yikes that is quite a break. I hope that you will be able to re-establish the connection you've worked so hard on this time. I'm glad that you feel confident that it will be ok when you go back, It might be that a break will actually help things along, but- I relate to that uneasy sense of not really caring about it in one way. I have a short break coming up with Cowboy, and I am surprised that I'm not in the least bothered by it, beyond a vague sort of disappointment that I've rather expected to being forgotten, and that Cowboy was surp[risingly good about not forgetting- but this time he did.
anyway- I guess I can just realte to the mixed feelings you seem to be having. I'm really sad that you have to miss these appointments due to not being able to drive. I wish there was a way around that for you.
(((((Monte))))))
quote:***Monte blows big, fat, wet raspberry at MTF***
Thanks! I needed a laugh.
Sorry to hear about the surgery and no driving for two weeks. That stinks! I don't think it's fair that these Ts of ours take breaks over the holidays, either. My T will be out for a while too so it will be 3 weeks for me between sessions. After weekly appts. that feels like forever. I too would be shutting down except that I'm too mad at my T to be doing so right now. I think she's even forgotten that this next week she would typically be calling me if she gets a cancellation. Today she asked if she'd be seeing me again before Christmas. Huh?
I hope you heal up quickly, and don't get too detached from T during your break. You have done such great work this year, I would hate to see you take too many steps back. Hang in there!!
MTF