Hi Monte... well you got my attention.

I'm so sorry for your pain. Can you talk about it with us? We have really missed you around here. Lampers and I were just thinking about you recently.

I'm listening....

Hugs
TN

(((((((Monte))))))))

Have missed you. I'm sorry for the pain.

Can you say more?

Monte!!! I was just thinking about you. Sounds like you are in a ton of pain right now. Sounds an awful lot like the pit of despair I was in this weekend. I'm sorry, I know how badly it sucks to be convinced that you must be "shit on top of shit". I'm glad you put your feelings out there so the rest of us can try to reassure you that that isn't actually true.

Love,
SG

Monte you are so hard on yourself. You are not any of those things, but you are in a lot of pain and you have come back and you have owned your part in leaving here and in what happened.

Yes, you may flee and return and delete but you are not the only one who does this. The very fact that you have come back shows courage because you did not have to come back to tell us this. Yet you did. That was important.

Can you tell us what really happened during that bad ending with your T? Are you seeing him now? Are things okay with him?

As AG says, put the hammer down and stop beating yourself up. We all have our struggles and we all make mistakes. You are welcome here and I know that I am happy to see you again for whatever prompted your return.

It will be okay.


TN

OMG, Monte. I do that kind of thing all the time, invent alternate endings when I don't like the real ones. There's one ending in particular that I'm still stuck on and is the main reason I started therapy. True, I don't usually share them in such a way that other people believe it's what actually happened...but that's only taking it one more (I know it feels really big, but I actually think it's a really small) step. I hope you can let yourself off the hook. You're still okay. Okay?

However, I'm very sorry to hear that the real ending with T was so bad. I know how hopeful you were, you really WERE making so much progress, and it must have been crushing for it to end so badly instead. I don't know what we can do to help you now, but we are here for you.

Love,
SG

quote:

And I read it over and over.

It sounds to me like you really needed it. You were in a lot of pain. I sympathize with you for feeling like you needed to do that for yourself. I think a lot of people will understand your pain.

Oh (((Monte))) you're none of those things - you clearly had a huge need to change the reality as a way of coping - that doesn't make you anything bad at all, just someone in awful pain. The good thing is you've come back here and if you want, we can help you work through it!

It's a shame you deleted everything cause there was some wonderful stuff there, but that's life and we've all done it to some degree! Try not to do it again and please keep reaching out.

s, Morgs xxx

((((Monte))))

I'm sorry the ending with your T was so painful. I can understand the desire to write a different story because you needed it. I have spend so much of my life fantasizing a much better life that I was going to have when I ... lost weight or finished school or change my jobs or...

I'm glad you came back and hope you will share what you are feeling. I think we can all relate.

I agree that it sounds like you really needed it. I am sorry you were hurting so much. Nobody I can think of on here will be offended. In my head, there are often other endings to things. They kept me safe and sane when neither of those things was attainable in the environment at the time.

As for the deleting, I do that on the regular and of course, I'm sure you understand when others do it.

Can you say more about what did happen and where you are at now? I was actually just thinking about you two weeks ago and wondering.

Still lots of for you, all the time.

((((((Monte))))))

I am seriously in awe at how brave you are to come here and admit this. It must have been really scary for you to do that, and I am amazed at your courage.

I don’t think we’ve ever really “talked”, but I definitely remember reading about your last session with your T, and I am really sorry that the reality of the situation was so different. I think everyone on this board can understand why you needed to invent a fantasy for a while. I have had the experience before of wanting something to be true so much that it actually seemed to be true. The illusion never held, but sometimes we just need a buffer between us and reality to help us deal. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Big

-Bee

(((((Monte))))))

I'm sorry. All those triggers. All those responsibilities. And the breaks with T and the relationship just not seeming right. It must feel like so much. I hope you will lean on us as this break looms and during the nine weeks off. I hope your session goes well and you are able to an establish a sense of safety and connection again.

Oh Monte - you dag. You have had some incredibly crap, crap, crap months. So what that you made up an ending - I would have too. The main thing is that you are back and we can help you, you must have been feeling so alone all the months. You have still managed to do some incredible stuff with T and facing your mum's illness and caring for her. They are major stressors.

Just stay a while ok?


And the stalking bit - again. So what? I would do the exact same thing. It might be stalking and not that intelligent an option in the long run - but it is helping you stay connected. Keep it under control and stop it when you can. I really understand your need to do this, I really do.

It sounds like all the pieces of you are flung all over the place, be kind to yourself and gather them all in so that you are safe again. Get a solid base back.

Somedays

Do whatever you need to Monte. No one will bat an eyelid.

(((Monte))) give yourself a break and stop judging whatever you've done, okay!!! and sorry but Looney Tunes is trademarked so, forget it!!! Keep venting lady, spill it all - you're among very caring friends. big s Love, Morgs xx

((((((((((((((( Monte ))))))))))))))

Others have said it already but I want to repeat it because it’s true – you are SO courageous and I am really really pleased to see you back here.

And seriously, TN and I WERE wondering how you were, literally only a few days ago, and hey, here you are!

For what it’s worth, the shame and humiliation and anticipation of other’s judgements and criticisms you’re feeling is NOT shared by anyone else (I can say that with absolute confidence!) And you do deserve all the understanding and support in the world.

I am so very sorry that you and T are going through a crap time, and that your life is so pressured on top of that. Having looooong breaks sucks at the best of times and it sounds like your T has been doing a bit of ball dropping at, naturally, the worst possible time.

I want to say too that I don’t think you are ‘stalking’ at all, Somedays said it well – you are looking for connection and that in my books is 100% ok. It’s not a bad thing to do.

I hope today’s session goes well for you, I’ll have my fingers crossed for you. Please don’t get spooked into hiding again, come back and tell us how it went, and how you are, and well, just keep on talking. You are heard.

Loads of loving hugs to you ((((((( Monte )))))))

LL

((Monte)) I'm sorry you are in so much pain. I'm glad to see you back. That's me smiling for you - you are wonderful.

(((((((MONTE))))))

Hey, when did this thread pop up? While I was sleeping? LOL!

Just wanted to welcome you back along with everyone else. I got so nervous when I first read your post describing all these horrible things are you and breathed a sigh of relief (insert emoticon breating sigh of relief here) when you actually shared what has been going on for you.

I just want to say that I think your behavior is totally understandable. You are a human being searching for connection. Beginning and end of story.

I'm sorry that your T was so cold and clinical in that email in December. That would have hurt me too.

I know I know I know you are really attached to this T but I was wondering if you would ever consider developing another relationship with another T alongside this one because this T does seem to take quite a few breaks which are quite obviously painful for you. And the fact that his retirement may be several years away is always in the background.

If I had had a T who took long breaks and was planning on retirement in the not so faroff future, I don't think I would have been able to attach to him the way I have been. I can see where that type of thing would have been a REAL stumbling block for me as far as feeling the security I need to feel in order to feel, well, um, secure. It would have eaten me up inside and, in fact, would have prevented me from entering the next stage of work that needs to be done and I would have been stuck endlessly and painfully in Stage 1 of trauma treatment. Not only does it sound like you are getting stuck there, it sounds like it is retraumatizing you and it's certainly not helping you feel good about yourself. In fact, it's having the opposite effect. You are feeling just terrible about yourself.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. I had been thinking that things were really good for you and that's why you hadn't been around much. So I'm very sad to hear that things have not gone well at all for you.



Liese

(((Monte))) Just want to say welcome back and that it's really good to hear from you. I have been wondering how you were doing. All is forgiven my dear. You're just in a horrendous amount of pain and struggling to find a way to contain it. And I am in awe of your courage in coming back and telling us. I'm sorry this hurts so much.

AG

Hi Monte, I'm glad you came back too. You sure have a lot on your plate and it makes perfect sense the different ways you are trying to cope. I have had those moments where I think "this CAN'T be happening!!!" and it hurts so much that I do settle for a different ending in my head.

I tear myself down a lot too (the "shit on top of shit" thing), but when I read you doing it, I felt so bad for you. Nobody here feels that way about you.

Nine weeks sounds way too long for a break. I have probs with nine DAYS! Ugh! Could you get a "surrogate T" for those weeks just so you have someone who can be there for you?

{{{{Monte}}}

~D.

Monte! I've been thinking about you so much, and wondering how you've been doing! Wow, it is good to see you!

Hm...so you have a literary interest, eh? I think you are sweet to have such scruples about it, but I also think it's just not a big deal really. I can't bring myself to be horribly shocked at all of your so-called bad behavior- especially since you are owning it, which is a very courageous thing to do. Good for you.

You are loved. Repeat it after me...

As far as the deep existential pain you are in over T- I think reading and writing may help you, to find the ability to cope with the pain without letting it consume you longer.. You have a gift for writing, and self expression. Share it, and you'll find some release, I hope.

Biggest hugs,

Beebs

Hi Monte,

Sorry to be so late to this, but firstly good to see you back and secondly, we have all done things I am sure, in our lives that we are not proud of, you are no different. The most important thing is that you are facing the reasons that led you to do the things that you did, and getting support and encouragement at a time when you need it. It s clear that your T's reaction caused such a trigger inside you, you did what you did in order to feel that love and care you deserved. You have no reason to apologise to us

I hope today's session went well, do let us know if you can.

((((Monte)))

starfishy

Monte, we haven't "met" since I am relatively new and you have been "away" for some time.

Reading your post I just want to say this....

We all make mistakes. We all say things and do things that we are not proud of. I don't think there is any person walking this planet who hasn't lied at one time or another. It takes a brave person however to come out into the open and voluntarily admit to their mistakes as you have done.

There is a saying I heard recently by Joyce Meyer....."Mercy is the understanding of the why's behind the what's". God understands your why's and you are forgiven through His grace. Sometimes it feels hard to accept and even understand that. Maybe it is because we are only human and WE can't understand the why's behind Gods what's. I think it has to do with unconditional love which most of us struggle with because throughout our lives we are programmed with conditions. Food for thought.

On ending I would like to say that I, for one, admire your open apology, and the fact that you humbled yourself to admit the truth on your own accord. I think that shows the "goodness" in you, and the light in your heart.

Hey Monte. It's cool to meet you at last! It's almost like seeing a ghost as I can tell in so many threads where your posts had been deleted but I never got to read them. Don't have much to add but just agreeing with everyone else to stop beating yourself up. There's enough pain in life without adding to it.

((((MONTE))))

I'm finding that too, that suddenly memories will pop up that I haven't thought about in a very long time and it will be like exactly how you described it, oh, this reminds me of when .... That to me is such significant progress and says, to me at least, that you are starting to put some space between you and your emotions and although they still feel consuming, you are developing the ability to mentalize, which they say is what it is all about.

I know how irreplaceable he is to you. I feel the same way about my T. Although I find that I do better when I am not thinking about him constantly but actually looking out into the world trying to make new connections, I also find that I fight separating from him, that I DON'T want to separate from him.

I want to share something with you that I hope will give you hope. I just realized a month or so ago that I go back and forth between two extremes, similar to what you were describing to BB. How empowering it feels to walk away but how we do ourselves a disservice. At the one end of the spectrum, the walking away end, when I do that I feel like a flag flapping in the wind, not grounded to anything. But when I was allowing myself that connection with my T, I felt so powerless that it was incredibly and utterly painful to maintain that connection. And I would vascilate between the two extremes. They are the only "states" I know.

About a month ago as well, I had an emotional breakthrough and finally don't feel so powerless anymore. I realized that T grounds me and that I WANT to connect with him. That I do better "out there" when I am connected "in there" with him. I think I might have realized on an emotional level that I was making a choice, actually, to stay with him and not to run and therein was the power. In the past, I felt like my needing him was not a choice but a necessity that I couldn't quite understand and it felt out of my power and control. In the past, I didn't feel strong enough to run but lately I have been feeling strong enough. I said to myself, I CAN do this by myself. I'm getting good at regulating my emotions. I'm getting good at making the connections to the past. But then I said to myself, I DON'T WANT TO do this by myself.
And I have this lovely man, who for some unknown reason, wants to go on this journey with me. Suddenly, we were side by side and it wasn't him with all the power, calling all the shots.

I cannot tell you why I had this emotional shift and why now I am seeing the relationship as a choice. But all I can say is that it has had a HUGE impact on my life and on my emotional stability and I hope you can hang in there and get to that point as well. I still have a lot of pain but it's not about needing my T anymore.

Will your T allow contact while he's away? And just where the heck is he going for 7 weeks? How dare he!!! LOL!

My first impulse was to look for a hug emoticon right now but won't do that. LOL!!

Liese

((((MONTE))))

Shouldn't you be in bed??? LOL!!

If I were a T
even just for a day
I'd hug you tight and hold you
and take all those blues away

If I were a T
even just for a week
I'd be clear on my boundaries
And never let you feel so weak

If I were a T
even just for a month
I'd tell you about transference
so you wouldn't have to flounder so much

If I were a T
even just for a year
We'd talk about your feelings
And I'd always let you know I care


If I were a T
even just for a day
I'd let you text and email
and be clear about when I could reply

If I were a T
even just for a year
I'd never take vacation
or cancel an appointment my dear

Liese that was AWESOME!!

I think, only people who have no other options, Monte. And even then, we probably wouldn't have if we had known what we were in for!

(((((MONTE)))))

I DID write it for you. I am glad your T is actually so many if those things

Xoxoxoxoxoxoxox

Liese

Great poem!

quote:

I think you are the first person to ever write me a poem

That was so nice, and it made me think, everyone should have a poem written for them. I'm inspired. Maybe I should try writing a poem or two for a couple of my people.

Monte thank you so much for coming back and telling us about your session. I think you are incredibly brave to let yourself go in there and experience the horrible dilemma of getting both emotional connection AND the pain of its limitations. That you are hanging in there and pushing yourself to go through all this speaks volumes about your determination to heal (as you said, considering the number of times you’ve bolted in the past.)

But having long breaks sucks, big time. No I’ll amend that to having ANY breaks sucks, big time. I find it refreshing that you admit to feeling angry about it (along with a mix of other feelings). Resonates very much with something I experienced recently, about which I shall be posting a thread soon.

quote:

but it never happens, because he always manages to say the wrong f*****g thing and it throws the script out

I’d laugh except that it’s painful when this happens. It puts me in mind of my current refrain in therapy, which is ‘You’re not giving me the correct response’. I even have shorthand now and just say ‘wrong answer!’ Because I have a very clear idea of what the correct right response I’m wanting from T is, and as you succinctly put it ‘ he manages to say the wrong fucking thing’ or worse, nothing at all and THAT creates even more digressive discussion and me bumbling and stumbling about trying not to expose too much of myself and going away feeling like I AM JUST NOT BEING HEARD, I am not getting what I need and want – and often, the desire to quit and go find yet another T to repeat it all over again with.

I guess I’ll say to you what people would say to me – maybe it’s not the wrong thing at all but what you do need to hear. Sometimes anyway .

I’d love to go through your post and respond to everything you’ve said, it’s SO full of interesting and insightful comments, but then I’d be writing a novel and making it all about me to boot so will quit while this post is still readable.

Just want to say good for you for hanging in there and that this place is always here to support you in all of this (especially during breaks.)

LL

quote:

I always thought (think ) healing will come via provision of what I have searched for all my life.

Monte, this belief is, I think, the most difficult thing in the known universe to let go of. It must be relinquished again and again, every time it manifests, and its painful every time to let it go. But if we are not able to, we end up trapped in the "half life" you mentioned, using all our energy chasing a non-existent chimera. I do not envy our Ts having to be the bearer of that bad news. The surest proof of their love sometimes seems to me to be their willingness to say the hard truths to us while staying to comfort the pain they evoked.

quote:

I think it is not just words I want to hear, I want also to see him respond emotionally to me. I don't mean in silly, dramatic ways...but I just wish I could 'sense' him emotionally. But maybe that is an essential line that must be drawn, and I never will get to experience that.

(((Monte))) I have no solution for this one as I can still struggle with it myself. I am utterly certain my T has all kinds of feelings for me. There is no way he could walk where he does with me and go to the depth he does without there being a full range of emotions; we have even been able to acknowledge the love on both sides of the relationship BUT ALWAYS, ALWAYS, there is that damned detachment, that holding back. I cannot know him that way I long to. My only comfort is that in all of the relationships I have observed where the T does not hold that detachment in place, the client is hurt and the work they have done is vitally damaged. FWIW, I think they pay a price to hold themselves this way and to keep so much of themselves out of the room, but I think it's a price they willingly pay in order for us to heal. Cold comfort at times, I know, but better than none at all. But it can hurt terribly.

AG

Hello again Monte, got some thoughts on your latter post (if I get a chance I'll come back and comment more on your previous posts later.)

quote:

I always thought (think ) healing will come via provision of what I have searched for all my life.

Though I see the wisdom in what AG replied to this comment, my take on it is probably closer to what your words are saying. I suppose it depends on the depth and intensity and extent of what it is you’ve been searching for, whether a single other person can actually give it. Maybe that’s the stumbling block?

For me, I’m starting to get from my T (in a very indirect and fought against tooth and nail way) a lot of things I’ve been wanting/needing throughout my life and not gotten before (ssshhh I don’t want to say that too loudly in case the skies come crashing down on me.) And I can categorically state that no amount of healing will happen without my getting a whole lot more (which is potentially possible with current T.) I suppose it’s all well and good knowing the theory and the desired end result and the attitudes and understanding we ought to have to make the process easier and bearable – but the bottom line for me is, what I’m looking for I have to keep trying to get and if and when I run into the limitations of the other or the (apparent) impossibility of getting it, THEN I’ll deal with it. Even knowing how in principle it's supposed to be and what’s involved and relating it all to the past and unmet needs and the impossibility of ever getting totally unconditional love just for being ME, I know damn well I’m going to keep on looking for it – and in the process, that’s where I expect the healing to happen.

This is where I converge again with what AG (as always, very wisely) says, that staying with the person who offers the biggest chance of giving at least SOME of what we’re looking for, and going through all the hell of its not being enough, ranting railing weeping gnashing of teeth begging crawling hating needing desperate full of shame and self hate and powerlessness and despair – (aside: omg what am I letting myself in for here ) – that, I think is where the hell that is healing happens. And it sounds to me very much like that’s where you’ve just landed and it’s intolerable .

quote:

I think it is not just words I want to hear, I want also to see him respond emotionally to me. I don't mean in silly, dramatic ways...but I just wish I could 'sense' him emotionally. But maybe that is an essential line that must be drawn, and I never will get to experience that

Oh ack I’m just repeating the same quotes AG has already focused on, well I suppose that’s because they come across as the pivotal notes in your post. Sorry for the repetition though!

What you’re describing here is exactly one of my wants from therapy and I’ve talked about it with current T quite often. (Not that my T even gives the words, I’ve never met a T who is so circuitous and digressive and indirect in his speech ). The thing is though, that even though my T is not at all demonstrative and very rarely even changes his tone of voice, there are times when I can pick up on emotional responses in him that convey a whole lot more than words ever could. And those responses affect me so much more, precisely because they’re infrequent. (By ‘emotional responses’ I don’t mean open expression of his feelings, more like things such as a fleeting change of expression on his face, an odd pause as he catches his breath which indicates something emotional affecting him, a faint glistening of the eyes, a softening of his posture, all subtle things rather than anything overt.)

I don’t agree that there is some essential line that must be drawn which means you never get to experience your T on that emotional level, although it sounds like your T is consciously controlling not only the expression of his emotional responses but also the responses themselves which must make it bloody difficult to get any sense of how your story and feelings affect him and so make it doubly harder to fish those feelings up from the bottom of the ocean. I can get how a T needs to be detached enough not to get caught up in emotional burn out, but there’s a fine line between total cold detachment and a calmness that nevertheless allows for some subtle non verbal emotional expression.

I rather like what you said about being able to BE your inner child instead of just talking ABOUT her. I’m getting the sense that precisely because being that child is so terrifying and risky and threatening to you, you end up throwing up the impenetrable defences even more stringently than ever and so cut yourself off from the very connection that would allow in more of what you’re searching for. Hm, have to make a proviso here that this is me guessing based on my experiences and therefore everything I’ve said could be a crock of… um… crap in relation to your situation.

And this is all well and good but the fact remains that you’re now facing a very long break from T so you’ve not even got the choice at the moment of hanging in there but have to bear all this pain alone for a period of time. I just hope that you DO hang in there and keep pushing through that ‘productive pain’ (a good phrase, I think I’ll appropriate it to use myself .)

I know you're not big on cyber hugs but I think you totally deserve as many as it's possible to send (multiplied to infinity...)


LL

quote:

Although if I had my way some days, this discomfort would take the form of thorns and hot coals in his undies.

ROFLMAO! Preaching to the choir sister!

I still occasionally yell at him for his detachment, the most recent being last Tuesday (my poor DH also got yelled at along with him, tired of being the only mess in the room. ) And then he's so understanding, it only makes me want to throw something at him even more. It's such fun feeling like a sulky three year old.

quote:

He tells me he wants feelings...fine T...but you have to actively come fishing, cos those fish ain't gonna come jumpin' in ya net!! He is not so good at fishing in this way. He is so low-key and impassive. Warm, friendly, yes, but somehow unmovable. I complained some time ago about this and he said he steels himself emotionally when dealing with people in this context, he must...otherwise his focus would wobble and he says that I pick up on this. Yes I do. I think it is not just words I want to hear, I want also to see him respond emotionally to me. I don't mean in silly, dramatic ways...but I just wish I could 'sense' him emotionally. But maybe that is an essential line that must be drawn, and I never will get to experience that. But...I am so locked away emotionally and so dreadfully mistrusting and suspicious of all things people say and do, that someone really needs to get in my face to reach past that.

Hi Monte... I have been really interested in this conversation because so much of it resonates with me and is a large part of the struggle with my T. We have hit a really bumpy patch since end of February and there are times I am in great despair of EVER feeling anything from him... or more specifically actually seeing some emotion in him. It has been really hard to accept this part of him because I often saw emotion in my oldT and for me that was validation of my pain or that he really understood me. Like how you describe your T... warm, friendly yet unmovable... I seem to feel the same thing about my T. He is always friendly but I get so frustrated that I cannot see or that he won't allow me to see what he is really feeling and this then leaves me alone with my own feelings to face. And I guess this is what I am SUPPOSED to be doing but I hate it.

There have been a few times where I really "felt" my T ... when he got through to me. Once was when he gave me a small pewter dragon to hold while he was on vacation and told me a lovely story about the dragon (and his wizard companion figure). It really got past my defenses and touched me. There was another time we were sitting on the floor and having a pretty intense conversation and we had really good, close eye contact and he told me to just TRY to believe that I am totally and unconditionally accepted there with him. Amd he "looked" like he meant it and again I felt him inside that dark, terrified place. When I told him about these times he said that I only respond to the "dramatic" gestures. That made me think and I realize that whatever it is... it HAs to be dramatic to get through, to get past those really strong walls, otherwise I cannot feel it and it just goes right past me and over my head. I cannot take it in.

I struggle to sense him emotionally because I am locked down and so mistrustful, especially since oldT abandoned me. It's a continual comparison of the two T's and a constant questionning of myself and trying to find their similarities so that I can better predict the outcome. My T is SO consistent and so dependable they are nothing alike and my left, rational brain knows this yet the mistrust is still there. It will probably take a really long time for me to lose that distrust.

Lastly, there is the grief of what we want but cannot have from our T's despite our best efforts to get it. We long, we yearn, we try all kinds of ways to get "this" thing we need so badly. And I'm pretty sure our adult self can understand this, yet the scared, sad, hurt child continues to stomp her foot and pout that she wants this and she does not want to hear reason. This is the hardest part and the one that holds the most pain. My T has gently talked about it with me. I tell him we can't go there because we are afraid he will abandon us or we will drag him into the bad place with us. He assures me he will be fine but that we have to go through it because there is no way around it. Then he smiles his knowing smile and tells me that once we do this it will be SO worth it. And then the fun begins because I will grow and change and he gets to enjoy that with me.

As for leaving him... LOL... he needs to know I'm not doing that... ever ... I may visit him in the nursing home! He says he does not terminate patients. I plan to test that!

I'm glad you are back Monte, but sorry you are having such a struggle with your T. I hope you will allow us to support you through your long break.

Hugs
TN

quote:

Even knowing how in principle it's supposed to be and what’s involved and relating it all to the past and unmet needs and the impossibility of ever getting totally unconditional love just for being ME

quote:

Like how you describe your T... warm, friendly yet unmovable...

Hey guys, maybe only part of it is accepting the impossibility of ever getting totally unconditional love for just being us. Maybe it's the impossibility of ever getting it from our parents but this does NOT mean, IMHO, that we can't get it from our T's and learn how to do it for ourselves.

Perhaps another part of it is by backing away from us, just a little, they are giving us the space to bring to consciousness those needs and to verbalize them because I am getting a huge sense that this is what it's all about. And then we can learn to validate it for ourselves.

TN, this is where I think OldT didn't do you any favors. Yes, it felt good to have that pain validated but he didn't teach you how to do it IRL. He left you of being in the state of being dependent upon others to get your pain validated. That leaves you of being in the position of having to continue doing it the way you were used to do it in the past.

That most of us try through our behaviors, very unsuccessfully, to get our needs met because we haven't learned to verbalize them. And yes it hurts when they frustrate us. But that's how we learn what it is we are seeking.

When I verbalize things to my T he is more apt to meet those needs. I don't hear from him, with a few exceptions, no I can't meet this need, you need to go find this out there in the universe. He is very generous in terms of meeting most of my needs. But that's just my T. Some others might not work that way. It could be because of where I was at. Maybe I needed the relationship building stuff first and for a long time.

I have a feeling I totally missed the boat here so please disregard anything if it doesn't resonate.

Liese

Hey guys,

Just had another thought. I think and I could be totally off here but it could also have something to do with us strengthening our own psychic boundaries. If they just absorb our emotions, there really isn't a clear beginning and end of us and the other. So, I think a lot of it has to do with boundaries and identity and ultimately separation and individuation. Huge stuff. But soooooo painful. Why does separation have to BE so painful????

xoxoxo

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That most of us try through our behaviors, very unsuccessfully, to get our needs met because we haven't learned to verbalize them. And yes it hurts when they frustrate us. But that's how we learn what it is we are seeking.

My own T told me very clearly that the reason she wasn't meeting some of my needs was because she didn't know what they were unless I told her. I also had an issue with her about seeming like she was detached emotionally from what I was saying. But looking more closely, I was just as detached from it myself. I think she wasn't going to throw her own feelings in there when she didn't even know yet what mine were.

Sometimes we give these T's more credit than they deserve. Very often they are hanging back and waiting because they JUST DON'T KNOW. It an interesting thought for me to ponder.

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By BLT
I also had an issue with her about seeming like she was detached emotionally from what I was saying. But looking more closely, I was just as detached from it myself. I think she wasn't going to throw her own feelings in there when she didn't even know yet what mine were.

WOW BLT, this just leapt out and smacked me right in the face. It’s something I’ve had an obscure background awareness of – like, hm if I could just express how I’m feeling then T would have a more spontaneous reaction to me than with all the endless talking ABOUT that I do. But you’ve articulated it in such a way that a whole lot of things make much more sense to me now. Thank you


Monte –

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But I remember once last year reading something awful from my journal to him and he had his arm round me and I felt him catch his breath and tighten his arm around me a moment. That was 'real'. But no...it must be about my 'real', not his

Are you saying that HE dismissed his own response, or that generally he shies away from allowing his responses into the sessions because that’s ‘his’ reality and not yours? So that in this one rare instance of a genuinely spontaneous emotional reaction to you, it got sidelined as aberrational or not what you ‘needed’ to experience?

I dunno about all this, on the one hand all the words in the world don’t seem to change anything, on the other hand a direct spontaneous emotional response gets right in where it matters, experientially. Somewhere in here there has to be a middle ground, where in amongst the words and the talking ABOUT, some kind of subliminal emotional exchange is going on anyway regardless of whether it’s overtly expressed or not. What AM I talking about??????????

I think I’m becoming tired of having to know it all intellectually, because quite frankly I don’t KNOW any of it. So Monte where you’re saying that you know rationally what’s going on, but that your inner child writes another email and lives in hope despite what you rationally ‘know’, I do see what you’re saying, but am now getting to the point where maybe the rational intellectual stuff is just GETTING IN THE WAY!

I know for me it is and has been for most of my life an enormous defence and now I’m finding that it’s becoming a prison keeping me in rather than fulfilling its original purpose, which was to keep the vulnerable needy helpless feelings safe from external invasion and attack. Maybe the intellectual knowing is actually obstructive. On the other hand, maybe not knowing can leave us even more vulnerable to enormous pain and rejection and abandonment and that’s just not worth the risk. Right now, I haven’t a clue

LL

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T says this all the time. He says he's not interested in what I know rationally, but in what I am feeling that is irrational.

Yeah Monte. This reminds me of just last Thursday when I sat waiting for T and reading an article I had printed off the net about fear of annihilation (which is what I have been wrestling with when I walk into his reception area) and I told him and wanted to read from it. He told me to put it away and to just talk to him about how I was feeling. That part is SO hard because I have to drop the intellectualization defense and really tell him how I feel. So hard.

TN