I know where you are coming from. I had to do a list the other week. My T on reading out the list asked how I felt about it and I just dismissed it as the sort of life that everyone has. He said to me "if this were my list and I was reading this out to you, what would you say to me?" I told him I would give him a hug. He told me to give myself a hug, ha, can't do it if you feel no one else will.

I also have a few people that care about me, but like you, I feel it in a sort of dismissive sort of way. It doesn't really mean anything, I detach myself from it. There is a void where the feeling of the caring should be. Does that make sense?

In terms of a definition, to me being cared about is being noticed, respected, loved, understood and receiving help when requested.

Cat it really sounds like your dismissive/avoidant stuff is at play here. Maybe yiu think the care you gave and give yourself was good enough to protect you from the reality that others who were supposed to care didn't. So to distance yourself from that blow you become overly self reliant. And as a fellow ED sufferer, I wonder whether your ED would have developed had the care you and others provided been good enough. As kids we do what we have to to survive, so im not knocking your efforts at all. Just encouraging some broader thinking.

Scars - similarly I imagine the care doesn't sink in because allowing it to would mean lots of grief, rage, shame and pain emerging. Knowing that the actions of others do affect you and you do have vulnerable feelings and needs inside, which have been responded to appallingly in the past.

Hugs to both of you xx

My evil T plays that same trick on me, like, "If that were Boo who felt that way," or "If your sisters felt that way," or even "If your mom said that about herself..." It's like, shut up, don't you know there are different rules for me?! I really seem to have a deep, internalized sense of sub-humanity that helps my mind to justify the experiences I had.

I have a huge problem with receiving care, maybe not quite as dismissive of a way, though. Receiving feels really threatening, for good reason, and I can't even really call it that without a lot of effort. It gets labled as "taking" internally almost automatically, though it's gotten better through working with T.

My strategies to approaching the idea that I need and deserve care are:

1. Denial. I have called my diagnosis a disorder of denial, because for me, it seems an elaborate way to deny things. So, I don't even "hold" the need for care in a part of me that I have any regular access to and can fully deny needing care without feeling as if I'm lying, even though intellectually, I can walk through the, "Care and connection are basic human needs and you are in fact, my dear, human" exercise withT. Denial extends to my humanity, when necessary, though that is a more universal feeling inside, being the bad sort of, not qualifying, special.

2. Tell myself I CAN do things for myself, so even if the way I have to do them is painful or maybe not the healthiest, I should do them by myself. This is where I get kind of dismissive. I disqualify my need for care, because if I can get by without it in any way at all, it's obviously not a "need." I went a very long time without having the missing things the relationship with T is showing me I could or should have had from parents and even other deep relationships. I get very stubborn about this, "I know I can do it myself, so I should; I don't need anything!" attitude.

3. If I get past these first two, and into acknowleging, "Holy crap, I have needs that I can't or shouldn't meet myself and it's not healthy to try to do it all on my own," then I move into feeling deeply protective of others, and see caring about me as a great cost to them and letting them do it can sometimes fill me with panic and dread. Not all parts of me are like that, but I'd say, everyone seven and up?

Anyway, a bit too detailed there. I can't even really define what caring about me would look like, because thinking about anyone doing it literally just gave me anxiety, trying to imagine what would make me "feel," rather than just know about someone else's care. We have a rule against approaching willingly altogether (some are better at breaking it than me, well, a little) and that feels like sort of an approach.

I took an extreme caretaking role within my FOO from a young age. I LOVE taking care of people and I feel frustrated, disappointed, and sometimes scared, when I am not allowed to do it. When a relationship shifts nearly full to the other direction, I have all sorts of triggers. I wouldn't say I "need" to take care of others all the time. I acknowledge that some people can competently take care of themselves for the most part (though my history has probably caused me to overpredict the number who cannot)...but, I genuinely enjoy taking care of others in ways they do need or just help them feel loved. Here my T might remind me that others experience that feeling offering care to me (ack, I'm denying others a natural, good feeling of expressing love to me? Oh wait, internal rules say I'm not human and loving me feels bad or injures them, whew, nevermind, I'm doing them a favor, taking care of them by not allowing their care for me)...

I can think of what I want Boo to feel, which is where those sort of tricky T exercises come in handy. I want her to feel my presentness. I want her to feel known, accepted, and loved. I want her to feel comforted when she is hurting. I want her to feel reassured when she is scared. I want her to feel safe when I am near and confident that I will be there when she needs me, enough to venture out. I want so much more than that and I actually want her to take all of that for granted, because it is granted, that is the gift of my care to my daughter...the only wish I'll ever have the real power to grant her. I want her to be able to rest, have peace, there.

Sometimes T reminds me how I would feel if she couldn't and I realize it must cause him pain, because of love (not because I owe him to receive his care better), that I can't rest and feel safe and take it in, that I still want to run off and do it on my own. It makes me feel very sad and kind of hopeless.

Anyway, sorry if I kind of lost the plot here, but I was just saying, even from a (slightly?) less dismissive perspective, I can really relate. When I do start to touch others' care for me, it feels confusing, scary, somewhat nauseating even...

Hey Catalyst,

I was in a bit of a hurry earlier (kids) and read just the title of your post. I've been mulling on the question since and came back to reply with my definition. It's a pretty straightforward one I guess.

When my T says she cares about me, I interpret it as. . . my well being is not a matter of indifference to her. Knowing that brings some comfort and even at times a measure of happiness.

Maybe that is what feeling cared about means? Subjectively experiencing the knowledge that your suffering is not a matter of indifference to someone in such a way that your internal experience is positively affected? Boy, that sounds dorky , but maybe that is what it means to take care in-- knowing that someone cares makes you feel better.

I guess I can think of reasons why we wouldn't want to let it in. . . it makes us more vulnerable to hurt or rejection from that person if we allow them to matter-- and who wants that?

Hope this applies at least somewhat-- these are the thoughts your post kicked up in me, anyway. Might be back with more later.

Dismissing the idea of needing care is probably right, because, like you I feel I can take "care" of myself, even with an ED, depression, and a hunger for alcohol!!!!.

Of course I am in total denial that I am even ill, because I can take of myself, don't need anyone to do it for me.

My T saying to me "why do you neglect yourself" keeps haunting me though.

I hope that T's comments keep resonating with you scars. You deserve to get better xxx

I've had a lot of trouble taking in care, too. This past fall I think I wrote my T a list of something like 12 reasons she couldn't actually care about me, because the thought of her caring for some reason was overwhelming and scary. For a long time (and still, sometimes) I rationalized that she cared about me on a professional level but not a personal level and that felt better. Except it's so untrue it isn't even funny; obviously she also cares about me on a personal level.

Something that happened just recently was I emailed her and there was a hug in the email, and the way she responded was like "OK, I will take the hug" which of course comes off sounding like grudging acceptance even though it's not. So I teased her that it wasn't enthusiastic and she wrote back and explained how she meant it. When I got the response, immediately part of me interpreted it that she was annoyed at me for having to explain what she meant. Then I realized, holy crap, no, she wanted to explain it because SHE CARES ABOUT MY FEELINGS! Then it was like, but nooooo, she's not allowed to care about my feelings over something so stupid! Like if someone close to me died, maybe she could care but why should she give a crap about how I felt about her reception of a virtual hug?! Then I realized I actually don't have any control over my feelings mattering to her

Anyway, I guess there's lots of reasons why being cared about could feel threatening, so there are lots and lots of ways to avoid actually taking in care even when it's obviously there. Sometimes I try to tell myself my T's care is *safe* care. It's not the enmeshed or invasive or needy kind of care, and she's not going to get all overwhelmed by caring too much. I simply matter to her, but in a balanced and reasonable way.

Cat says:

quote:

When I come across someone who I would like to have care about me I am too scared to reach out to them. I could just about cope with them rejecting me. What I couldn't handle is having let them know how I felt and what I wanted. I would feel shamed and humiliated and that I had let myself down by exposing my "weakness". It's better not to have care than to risk that.

All that, especially the first sentence is so me. In my last session my T even said how i didn't want to lower my defenses and get into a relationship that was helpful and that i could rely on. i majorly pushed him away without even realizing it. and i think that's why, is because i DO want him to care about me, but know because of the professional boundaries that he can never care about me. i'm just a ship passing in the night to him.

sorry, that was all about me. i really don't know how to define care. Love, maybe?

oh, and BLT, i loved your email story. it's comical in a way what we think our Ts think and how we care SO much! comical, but crazy-making as hell, too!

when my T starts to say caring things, I just hold up my hand and tell him to STOP.

I'm still perplexed by why we might desire one person's care - even if we can't feel it when they do - but while another person's care is just meaningless.

Liese, i'd venture to guess if it's a T it has a lot to do with transference (sorry ... and that by all means is NOT to negate the probable fact that they DO care on some level(s)...at least i hope they do ...i'm pretty sure they do). i know for my mother, for instance, if she is being "caring" it feels incredibly condescending and all about her and there is absolutely no sincerity and hence no meaning whatsoever to me. (sorry for the rant). i guess if you feel their sincerity that there is potential that you'd desire their care. but maybe if you're upbringing was anything like mine (and from what i've read in your posts i think there are a lot of similarities) that although you may desire somebody's care, when they show it you may have a history of your care-giver being insincere. sorry but i think that's really what you've got to work with. i think naturally you're going to be suspicious of their genuine care, just by natural instinct of how you grew up. the T word, transference ... sorry maybe not what you wanted to hear?

((((CAT))))((((CD))))

My mother's "care" was more of the controlling variety. She cared about what I looked like, what I wore, if my hair was brushed, if I was polite but she didn't care about my feelings.

For a long time, I really needed/wanted to know that my T cared about me but could never ask or even broach it for two reasons: the first is that I felt so worthless and it was too vulnerable a topic for me. The second is that I knew that regardless of what he said, I wouldn't believe him.

But, there are people who care about me and who do caring things for me that I don't care about receiving. I might not like them that much. Often it feels controlling, like they want something back from me. (more transference?) They might want me to care about them. In that scenario, for me caring has been associated with strings and obligations.

I was wondering about the difference between people whose care we desire (is this because we idealize them?) and people who might like us more than we like them and who might be caring and/or do caring acts that don't feel meaningful to us. That leads me to question how much we really "need" to be cared for if some people care about us but because it's not meaningful for us, it doesn't do anything for us. There is only a certain type of care from a certain type of person that we desire. And so how much could we really need it?

Maybe the desire for caring is more about the desire to feel loved uncondtionally, to get that unconditional love we wanted in childhood and since that was a pretty illusive thing in most of our homes, it becomes somewhat of a hotbed issue in therapy? Seeing as the therapist has some restraints on their caring and in that way parallels the parent/child relationship we had?

I have to say that I do feel cared about by my therapist and I do take in his care. But this has only been achieved after lots of ups and downs with him, lots of vulnerability and lots of effort on his part to show his care within the confines of the therapeutic relationship. It finally feels safe, like something I can trust.

If we allow ourselves to take in their care, then we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with them and trust that they will not take advantage of that or hurt us. We allow ourselves to need them and that, of course, is terrifying, at least for me because of how dependency was handled in my family. I'm sensing here that feeling cared about and letting that in is related to dependency needs. If we allow ourselves to feel cared about, then we might, in turn, come to need them?

Sorry if that was too rambly.

quote:

how much we really "need" to be cared for if some people care about us but because it's not meaningful for us, it doesn't do anything for us. There is only a certain type of care from a certain type of person that we desire. And so how much could we really need it?

i think that's actually a pretty awesome question to ponder! i guess if we feel as though it doesn't do anything for us for whatever reason, then it's not meaningful for us. and we don't need it, although they may "need" to give it to us. wow. i'm in this situation now. there is a guy who's been bothering me to date him and says he "misses" me even though he doesn't even know me. i won't date him because i'm not interested in dating him. he can be a friend, but that's about it. i'm not attracted to him the way he is to me. i guess i'm looking at this from his perspective right now, and i'm wondering how he can miss me if he doesn't even know me in the least (and i've asked him this but he has no answer). i think i know the answer, but not everybody will understand it and i even hesitate to post it here because it's the answer for "everything" in therapy. transference! he does not know me, but he misses me. how can that be, other than the fact that i remind him of someone! how could i ever date someone that misses me before he even knows ME?!? it feels creepy but sweet at the same time (sweet only because i am privy to this thing called transference). it makes me curious as hell, which maybe is a view therapists frequently experience. i'm free-associating as it were, so don't mind me it IS interesting, though. i don't feel or want his care and don't feel i'd particularly appreciate his "care". i dont' "need" his care. on the other hand, i'd do cartwheels to know T truly cared about me. maybe it's feeling understood and totally accepted for who you are, not just that you remind somebody of somebody else? the unconditional positive regard stuff (that sounds cold). but you know what i mean? our Ts know us better than most people do, and yet they put up with us and stick through shit with us the way other people don't. but do i "need" his care? i don't think so. i haven't seen him since the end of November and although i pine over him i don't "need" him to survive. maybe it's the need to know that somebody will be there for you when you're asking questions and need some unbiased person that accepts you for who you are during those not-so-great periods in life when you struggle. and they're always there. sometimes you may need to contact them, but they're always there. unconditionally. just like a parent is expected to be.

quote:

If we allow ourselves to take in their care, then we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with them and trust that they will not take advantage of that or hurt us. We allow ourselves to need them and that, of course, is terrifying, at least for me because of how dependency was handled in my family. I'm sensing here that feeling cared about and letting that in is related to dependency needs. If we allow ourselves to feel cared about, then we might, in turn, come to need them?

yeah, we'll come to need them, but the fact of the matter is that therapy is designed to end. so we come to need them knowing full well that this will not last. i know i'm rambling and twisting this topic and i'm sorry, but this is what ultimately lead me to probably prematurely end my therapy. i don't want to need or care about him and then have to eventually end the relationship. maybe somebody has some words of wisdom out there.

(((CD)))

quote:

i don't want to need or care about him and then have to eventually end the relationship.

I struggled with this for a long long time. It's so hard to say how it ever resolved itself or if it even did. I still cry when I think about ending therapy though I just don't focus on ending so much though anymore. I don't think of the ending as being permanent anymore. It's not like I'm going to walk out of there one day and the door will be closed tight, locked and sealed.

Funny, as I'm writing this out, it's making me think of how dissociation works and how our emotional parts are rigid with little fluidity between them. That's how I used to see therapy. Either I was in it or I was not. Either I had a relationship with T or I did not. Does that make sense? Now I think I've internalized him to the extent that even if I'm not in therapy, I will carry him with me in my heart and it won't necessarily feel like an ending. I'll still be able to feel him even if I'm not with him.

(((CD))) Part of the first phase of trauma therapy is overcoming the fear of attachment AND the fear of attachment loss. It sounds like you are struggling with the second or maybe both?