(((( Jones ))))

Well you could step out the back Jack, make a new plan Stan...

Firstly want to say I’m so sorry that this new T isn’t working out. I’ve been in a similar place where you just know that it’s not going to work, no matter how much responsibility you take for the interactions. So I can sympathize very much with the place you’re in now - knowing that you can’t really work with this T, but not having the certainty, or even that many options, of finding another one. (As an aside, maybe the male T would be the one for you after all - nothing like bringing crappy issues straight to the fore in new therapy!)

I also get as well that awful feeling of hurting the other - that somehow because it’s their inadequacy and failings that are behind the lack of connection, I end up feeling so so sorry for them, as if I’m rubbing their face in their own failure and that’s an excruciatingly awful feeling. I don’t think it’s self-aggrandisement at all, I think it’s a form of genuine empathy. I felt that way a lot about the T I’d been seeing for those six months earlier in the year - the constant sense that he just wasn’t up to the job, not good enough, and that actually hurt me thinking like that.

But of course, she’s a T and though she might feel disappointed I seriously doubt that she will experience herself as not good enough (being a T she will be far more likely to see it as a failing in you lol).

As for how to tell her. Hm. Maybe writing her a letter is the most effective way - at least getting all your reasons down in words so you don’t have to bumble and stumble finding the nicest and kindest way to say it in person - but I’d also suggest that you talk about it with her too. Maybe send her a letter and arrange a last session? I’m not too comfortable with these things myself, rather just bolt. But if it’s any comfort, I’ve had to ‘terminate’ numerous Ts by phone and though I’ve freaked every single time, equally every single time they’ve been really good and accepting, not demanding reasons or giving arguments, and have all wished me well. I expect you will find it a lot easier than you are fearing.

(As another aside, any feelings of anger or feeling let down swirling around in there at all?)

Good for you Jones, holding out for what you know is right for you.

Hugs to you ((((( Jones ))))

LL

Oops just read BG's reply and realized you'd said the practice won't accept letters. Hm how can they stop it though? Well it that's the case maybe you can still write a letter but read it (or use it as a basis for speaking to her) in session itself, maybe leave a message for her first saying you want to make it the last session, or something like that?

emotional brain speaking alert...my wise mind has left the building..

i hate this whole idea of the practice not allowing letters. i hate that these t's act like their precious time should be charged for by the dollar for any time they spend with you, even reading a flipping letter.

a t i just interviewed has a bell that goes off at ten minutes til, then five minutes til, then, time. (she is a 'life coach for parenting') so not really a t. so, a bit different. but, coming from someone who in nine months with t1, probably called him outside twice? give me a break.

sometimes the boundaries feel so inhumane. and i am not asking for much.

to your point, jones, i would, if you really think it is no use to you, cancel, cut bait and roll. unless there is a purpose for YOU to have another session.

why do we NICE PEOPLE feel that we OWE them another $150 just to POLITELY tell them that their services are no longer needed. i am SURE my hatred to T3 will forever be taken out on other t's despite my intent NOT TO. but, i find myself just bowing down to them at times, and....what gives?? who is paying who??

i am going to tell dbt gal on wednesday, that i hope she had her wheaties, coz i left wise mind and rational mind in the car.. they don't need therapy. but EMOTIONAL MIND is here and on your couch, and let's talk.

i ALWAYS digress to ME, sorry jones, but, do what YOU NEED TO DO FOR YOU. YOU ARE A NICE AND REASONABLE PERSON AND IF YOU FEEL YOU COULD BENEFIT FROM ANOTHER SESSION, DO IT, IF NOT, A LETTER IS GREAT. A CANCELLATION IS FINE. IT IS OUR FEELINGS WE ARE PAYING THEM TO DISCUSS, NOT THEIRS, AND WE ARE THE CLIENT HERE.

as you know, i have some 'issues' here!!

i doubt i helped, but that is my warped opinion. someone much more mature than me could probably help you more! hugs, jill

Hi all -

Thank you for your thoughts. Dear LL, I did write that letter - I might rewrite it though, because it's very nice and pretty uncritical, and the more I think about it, the more I am pissed off, really (how did you guess? ) . On some level deeply pissed off that I have been struggling and struggling for years now to get proper help to get in a position to make decisions that are going to stay with me for the rest of my life, and the help is just not good enough, and on certain issues my time is running out, on other issues it's all done and dusted and I sometimes wonder what it would have been if I'd had really skilled support.

But my anger deflates when I think about actually directing it AT the T - because I assume she's just doing her best, and that it's good enough for other kinds of client. Ultimately all this crap is my own problem, and no matter how much I pay someone, no one else is going to make (or unmake) my decisions for me. Anyway, what you say about the way your Ts handled the ending is actually very reassuring - thank you.

BG, thank you for the encouragement - you're right that I think I would regret it if I stuck with this.

As for letters - I probably could post one - but all the email goes through the practice admin, and their policy is that any non-admin-type communication just needs to happen in session.

But I have a couples session with both Ts scheduled tomorrow night, where I hope to say more about how her mistake has affected me/us, and an individual session scheduled for the day after. I would cut and run but we need the couples session, and I need the referral for another T within the practice. The practice ALSO has a rule that you're only allowed to change T once within the practice (I assume my last T leaving doesn't count - or the T I met for 5 minutes and decided not to go with), so they are kind of strict about this stuff. I feel like I need to do it all 'correctly' to be able to get the referral.

June, thank you for your suggestion of keeping it short and sweet. That's a calming thought, that I don't need to make a big production out of it. It feels big inside, but the thought that I can do it the way that works for *me* is one I need to sit with for a while. I appreciate the suggestions very much.

Jill, thank you for your support. Yes, the boundaries are a pain in the arse, and I do feel like I need to do it all the right way for them, not me.... I'm going to try to take some of the pressure off and just think about what I need in ending this. I realise reading your message that I feel so much like I'm doing something wrong, and I'm going to have to prove that I'm not just chickening out, or really f*d up, avoidant, etc. Part of it is that she knows, I know, my husband's T knows (we do couples work with them both together) that things are really messed up for us and I and we do need the therapy. So it's not just about not needing it any more, it's about her not meeting my needs. Argh.

Thanks for the hugs, Jill.

Jones.

Jones

I don't really have any words of advice or feedback for leaving a T... (I'mn terribly crummy at handling that myself.) I'm sorry your T hasn't been a better fit for you, and I am proud of you for having the courage to face this and for realizing you need something more, something different, and how you are noticing your feelings and processing them.

My heart really goes out for you... I'm hopeful that you will find a T that can help you take the next steps in your journey...

I do agree with what others have written that you don't need to worry too much about how your T will take it. Take care of you and what you need.

many hugs,
~ jane

p.s. On a side note, that hopefully is not insensitively lighthearted, your title of this thread "50 ways to leave yr T" make me smile. It reminded me of the movie title "50 first dates." The part of my heart that is hurt by my old T and the lack of respect she has for me trying to get her to leave me alone (long story), part of me wonders what would be 50 comical ways to leave a T.... sigh, I think I have some anger to keep working on.

Dear Jane -

Thank you for the support!

quote:

I am proud of you for having the courage to face this and for realizing you need something more, something different, and how you are noticing your feelings and processing them

That is really nice.... I'm a bit confused right now. We had a couples session last night; I was really upset beforehand and then it went really well and they did a lot of work helping me address my upset with my husband. His T was leading, as always, but my T was there looking all benevolent and warm and now I don't know what I want. I can't imagine going in there and terminating tonight - I am thinking - I haven't been trying hard enough, I've been too closed off because of all my resentments, etc. She was finally going to read my notes from my last T this week, and maybe things will change/she'll be better once she has...

etc confused etc....

Jones

Jones, I can empathize with what you're going through, having fired three shrinks myself over the last six months (one of them for the 2nd time). I like June's suggestion of having a regular session for 30 minutes and then bringing it up. This might give you some time to figure out if you want to go through with it or not, since it sounds like you are on the fence after your couple's session. If you decide you want to end it, just keep it short and tell her it's not working out. It's hard to know how they'll react, but really that's her issue, not yours.

Here's my experience with how firing a T goes: The first time I quit therapy with my P, I did it at the beginning of the session, and he seemed irritated and basically said, "OK. You can just leave now then if you don't want to be here." But I didn't let him off that easy and I stayed for my whole session and talked about how I would deal with upcoming stressful events, etc. I understand now why he was a little short with me. I wasn't really "done with therapy", I wasn't being honest about why I wanted to quit. (I was quitting because I was in love with him and it was just too weird.) I ended up back in therapy with him of course, but then quit again because I just wasn't getting anywhere... my fault mostly, not his. The second time he seemed really happy for me (maybe a little relieved) because I was honest about what I was experiencing and why I was quitting, and he said he was proud of me for doing whatever I felt was in my best interests.

The second T I fired, I just cancelled after 3 appointments and never rescheduled. I regret this. I hate confrontation in general, and this was taking the easy way out.

The third and last T I fired after six sessions, I waited until about 30 minutes into the session and then I tried to be honest with her and said it wasn't a good fit. I was being nice, because in reality I was pretty irritated with her and think she's kind of a lousy therapist. I gave her specific feedback, but I didn't bother to tell her that I don't trust her and that she comes across as a gossip (she seemed willing and eager to engage in gossip about my former P, which made me wonder if she'd gossip about me to him, too). But other people really like her, so what do I know?

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but good luck to you.

Oh Jones, just when you think you’ve made a decision your T shows aspects that make you doubt your own feelings about your therapy. I so get when you think maybe you haven’t worked hard enough. Well from what I know of you I seriously doubt that you haven’t been putting as much as you can into the therapy, but I guess yeah there’s always the thought that maybe just maybe there’s something you could say or do or bring up that would suddenly make the therapy work.

And that’s always possible too, though my sense of that is that it would be like you having to both lead and follow in therapy and that the important connection to T, the thing that would allow you to keep working effectively in a vacuum, would always make it difficult.

But as you say, maybe her reading your notes will give her an insight that suddenly allows the therapy to shift into proper working together mode.

I hope that your session lets you make a decision one way or the other. And I’m glad your couples T went well, that’s good news.

(((( Jones ))))

LL

Well, I went in last night thinking I would keep trying, then after about ten minutes of discussion I pretty much lost my temper and found myself speaking angrily, arguing with her about all her suggestions. She was saying my husband and I are both operating from a place of being very self-centred, considering our own needs paramount and being unable to consider the other person's needs. But she did not mean this as criticism, apparently; she said this is a great deal of my problem, that I think something is criticism when it's not. She said she was just describing the way that it is.

The thing is I'm sure she's right, to some degree at least, I just can not take it in or do anything with it the way she is saying it. So I just spat it out that I didn't think it was working, I didn't feel a connection, I was trying hard to connect with my feelings and not feeling like they were being picked up on.

We worked with that for a while, she asked me to be specific about where I was losing trust with her etc. One of the things I said was that I had no sense of what model she was working with, what the framework was, where she was coming from. She said she thought that intellectualising helped me to compartmentalise things, so she was trying to avoid that and work with my child self instead, but she admitted that she found it very difficult with me because my child is extremely well defended. I said that I got why she was trying to do that, but that for me being able to get the intellectual framework and trust it was a big part of being able to trust her.

So she said 'Right' and sort of leapt out of her chair and went to the whiteboard - I feel like she was angry at this point and just pulling it under control - and then she explained that she works psychodynamically but comes from a TA model. She drew up the parent/adult/child diagram and explained she felt I operated a lot from a rebellious child mode (and in interaction with my husband's parent mode). She said she was trying to dialogue with my rational adult, get my rational adult thinking, and that's what we had been doing.

I said I thought my rational adult was very closely bound with my rebellious child and that's probably why it wasn't working for me.

Then we moved to trying to talk about what the things were that I didn't feel heard on. I said the baby/having kids thing. So we did another conversation about that, with her doing lots of reflecting of how I was feeling. Back round the whole situation again. She was trying really hard to connect and certainly I felt the sadness and fear etc and expressed it, but.... There we were at the end again, and in relation to that stuff it sort of felt just like another momentary relief, another go round the circle. I did feel some relief in relation to having spelled out how I was feeling, though, so when she asked if I wanted to see out the appointments we have booked over the next month or two and then see how things are, I agreed.

And then this morning I felt like crap about it, absolutely unable to stay stuck in indecision, so I sent her an email via the practice saying I wanted to end and work with someone else. She got back to me this evening saying she understood I wanted to end and she thought a termination appointment was important, so we can work out the couples stuff, the transfer etc.

I feel pretty miserable. I've been feeling kind of sick over this. A friend said to me I can only work with the tools that I have at hand now, not what I'll have in the future, and that was really helpful. It probably is my fault and my defenses and my not hearing her right, putting things together the wrong way afterwards, but this is all I have. And I feel like I was making better progress before and I just can't afford to take the risk of too much wasted time.

Echo, thank you for writing about your endings - it is helpful in particular to read about your regret on the quick-way-out option. I think I would feel like that if I don't go to this last session.

LL, yes, that thing about feeling like I'm working in a vacuum is exactly it. Thank you for understanding that, and the confusion too. And for the hug. ((((((LL))))))


Next episode: what to say in the last session.

Jones

Sorry that I missed your thread, I was away for a while. But I 've just read it through and felt some sort of inevitability coming early on...this didn't feel right for you did it? And once we realise that, then sometimes there is no other way forward, because anything else just seems to be delaying the inevitable. I may be wrong, at the termination session T will maybe have done a lot of thinking and might come up with a new plan - maybe you should be prepared for that...

No wonder you feel sick over this, I can imagine I would feel the same. When is your next appointment Jones? I so get the wasted time thing too - sometimes life feels so precious and therapy takes so very long. I wish we had a rule book that we could refer to - but your just have yourself and your instincts and experience and in that Jones please try to trust.

Hug to you,

starfish

Hi Jones,
I’m sorry this has been such a struggle for you, especially since the reason you’re working so hard on forming a relationship with your T is so that you can continue to work hard on your marriage. Doesn’t seem like much of a reward, does it?

quote:

Well, I went in last night thinking I would keep trying, then after about ten minutes of discussion I pretty much lost my temper and found myself speaking angrily, arguing with her about all her suggestions.

Ten minutes is pretty impressive, it usually took my T at least a half an hour to get me that angry. I just think that this is a really strong indication that there is a real disconnect with this T such that you are experiencing this level of frustration in trying to feel heard. This makes me feel like you made the right decision to end things.

quote:

She was saying my husband and I are both operating from a place of being very self-centred, considering our own needs paramount and being unable to consider the other person's needs. But she did not mean this as criticism, apparently; she said this is a great deal of my problem, that I think something is criticism when it's not. She said she was just describing the way that it is.

And this is the heart of the problem. When we were really slogging through our couples’ work, there came a point where my T had to say some very difficult things to me, when I had to start facing my part in my husband and I’s problems. Which took a while, because honestly at the heart of my problems, including how I operated in my marriage, was my inability to hear negative things because my sense of self was so weak and so distorted in the “worthless” direction that to hear something bad overwhelmed me because it became the totality of who I was. The only reason I was eventually able to actually hear that stuff was because I had learned to trust my Ts care for me and that he knew what he was doing. Without that trust, I would NEVER have been able to hear him. Which also makes me relate to you wanting to understand the frame so you could trust her. My T and I had discussed at one of our last sessions how all the healing comes from being in the moment and expressing your feelings, it’s not about what you know. But my T said something really interesting to me, that although it didn’t depend on knowledge, that I had used my intellectual understanding to help me trust enough to let down my emotional guard. So while I agree that intellectualizing can be a defense, I also understand that it can be a tool.

And if she’s trying to go straight to the child part of you, I think trust becomes even more of an issue. It’s like she was trying to put the cart before the horse. You have to establish trust in order to have someone open up, and establishing trust absolutely necessitates that a person feel heard and understood, that the other person ‘gets’ them. It’s like she tried to skip this part.

I have no idea if her assessment of what is going on in your marriage is correct, but I do know that expecting you to hear that and to take the even scarier step of making yourself vulnerable enough to start hearing your husband’s needs when it feels like your’s aren’t being met, means you need a secure place from which to do so. And from what you’re saying, you’re not going to have that with her.

As far as the last appointment, I have some really weird advice for me. I know I”m always the one telling everyone to tell your T how you feel, but I think you’ve attempted to do that in any number of ways and for some reason or mismatch, you’re not being heard. So chill out, relax, let her carry the ball, nod a lot and just get through the appointment. No matter what she says or does the clock is going to run out and you can move on with your life. FWIW, I really do think you made the right decision. Let us know how it goes.

Starfish,
Wonderful to have you back!! Hope you had wonderful hols (another wonderful British slang term )

AG

Wow Jones - even the way you describe the session (in your usual fair and reasonable and seeing as objectively as you can T’s point of view ) I have to say that I was hopping mad by about the third sentence!

It doesn’t sound like you were heard at all - that she was responding really obliquely to the things you were putting to her. And it does sound as if she’s got a pretty negative approach, the sort of ‘I tell it like it is’ attitude. Even where you were talking about the having children issue - it sounds like momentarily she put herself in proper T mode and actually listened to you, but that that was only because you’d openly confronted her about things.

If you hadn’t given her description of her approach, and if I didn’t know that she was supposedly an art therapist - I’d have said watch out CBT CBT CBT warning warning red alert (lol, that’s just me sorry) - there doesn’t seem to be any depth to what she says. For what it’s worth, the TA model strikes me as a bit simplistic and it sounds like she was trying to push you into experiencing yourself as distinctly separate parts in a pretty superficial way.

I’m glad you were able to feel decisive enough to terminate - it would be so much worse to drag it out based on that one incident of actually having been heard about one issue.

I totally agree with Starfish about the wasted time thing. Therapy takes long enough when it’s actually working well - to have to stagger from one session to the next turning yourself inside out wondering what you can do to get anything out of it is not just precious wasted time but can make you end up profoundly doubting your own needs and wants and goals.

It is good though that she has asked for a final termination session - I shouldn’t think you need to feel defensive about it (unless you’re not absolutely sure you don’t want to continue with her). Really it ought to be about sorting things out for YOU, a referral or transfer, what to do about the couples therapy, and generally giving you an overview of what’s been achieved (or not!) to date. I've just read AG's reply (lol it's quite daunting following an AG response as she says everything so clearly and meaningfully) and what she says about NOT going in with how you feel makes good sense.

I like what your friend said to you - yeah it doesn’t matter how you might be in the future, what kind of changes you might make which would let you view therapy with this T differently - you’ve only got where you’re at right now. And the right T will be able to work with that, will be able to relate to who you are right in this moment.

I really hope you can find yourself another T who will help you, and soon. All the best with that last session

LL

Thank you so much, Starfishy (good to see you!), AG & LL - you guys are the best. I was sick yesterday and gotta take care of work stuff today, but I'll be back to respond properly soon.

xxxJones

Hi again,

Starfish, you're right, this hasn't felt right from very early. We did a couple of sessions working with art therapy early on, and I found that helpful, but I was uncomfortable with the way she interpreted what I was doing - just in tiny ways (eg saying a figure was 'she' when I thought it was 'he' and then just withdrawing when I corrected) and then she stopped doing it. And after that it's been like walking in sludgy circles.

The next session is Monday. I want to just sit it out, as AG suggests, but I'm scared I'll get hooked in to taking everything I'm experiencing as an expression of my internal problems. Thank you for telling me to trust myself- that is the hardest thing here.

AG - wow, your first sentence hits hard. Yes, it is like that - I'm just trying to get some more resources so I can keep going! I'm not *trying* to 'get away with something', and yet that's how I feel I'm being perceived. That her perception is that I just need to be shown where I'm being illogical or self-centred, and that will bring me to my senses or something.

quote:

The only reason I was eventually able to actually hear that stuff was because I had learned to trust my Ts care for me and that he knew what he was doing.

This is exactly it. Like so many of us, I've spent much of my life being a 'people-pleaser', bending to every whiff I get of the perception that I'm doing something wrong, whatever direction that whiff comes from. The confusion and frustration and hurt that comes from bending so far in one direction to find I am 'getting it wrong' in another direction... These days I try to be really careful about where I take my guidance from, and I try to stay with my own perceptions more. As yet I DON'T have reason to trust this T's care, her insights, her worldview over my own, and this overwhelming vibe that I get from her that she thinks it's simple or easy or obvious makes me feel less trusting. I don't have a sense that she gets how hard I've thought and worked and read and thought and worked to be in the situation that I'm in, to keep the marriage together, to be as healthy as I am (however healthy that is), and so on.

THANK YOU for your weird advice on the final session. The 'permission' to do this helps a lot with dealing with the anxiety about this.

LL I love your responses, because you put me in touch with my own anger in really strong, positive ways. I was pretty hopping mad too. I believe she actually said at one stage "You feel like I'm criticizing you, but I'm just telling you the facts." Erm, well, that's just a level of self-certainty I can't relate to, whether or not she's right in her perceptions.

Her application of the TA model is a funny one. Her description of me (and relation to me) as operating from 'rebellious child' didn't give any acknowledgement of all the parenting stuff I do in my relationship. That isn't any more healthy and it may well be what pushes me into rebellious child mode - but it's weird that she didn't see/acknowledge it.

But I think the overall thing that bothers me the most is how few questions she asks. And it seems like when she asks a question, she already thinks she knows the answer. Blah.

Thank you all for your thoughts - I'll let you know how it goes.

Jones

Jones,

Sorry you're in this place of ending with another T so soon. I was hoping this art therapy T would really work out for you. But it sounds like you really are making the right choice here. I hope that your termination session goes well. Good luck to you!!

Hugs,
MTF

Dear Jones

I think someone misinterpreting what you are saying - either in speech through art etc - is a really painful experience. It is so important to when you're bearing your soul to another to be understood, so I can well see your frustration at her mistaking foe example, the sex of characters you have drawn. Those seemingly little things are actually really important. My T always askes me to talk her through anything I have written or drawn, sometimes I think 'why, surely it's obvious', but I guess I would be even more frustrated if she misread or misinterpreted it. I wonder if her not getting the detail of what you draw, or say for that matter, implies to you that she's maybe therefore not getting the bigger picture as well....and her then withdrawing when corrected and finally stopping, implied that she didn't care to really find out. This may not be correct, but that's how reading what you wrote made me feel.

I remember once one of the most powerful things my T ever said was once I thought that she really hadn't got why I was upset about something...'you don't understand' I said. To which she replied 'Well, it's important to tell me again and keep telling me, until you are sure I DO understand'. I will never forget that, it was only about a little thing actually, but I realised that there was someone there who genuinely wanted to understand me.

quote:

this overwhelming vibe that I get from her that she thinks it's simple or easy or obvious makes me feel less trusting

I guess that follows the same theme doesn't it? All those words 'simple, easy, obvious' are the complete opposite often, to how we feel about our issues that have brought us to therapy...if they were that, the we wouldn't be trying to fix them would we? So I wonder if that's why she doesn't ask questions, because maybe the answers are so obvious seemingly to her.....but how that might help you, I really don't know.

I do hope Monday goes as well as it can, that you might have a chance to put over how you have felt and that even if she doesn't agree, that she might listen and hear you out. Thoughts for you and a strengthening hug too,

starfishy

Dear MTF -

Thanks for your good wishes - I was so hopeful too. It does feel like the right thing I *think*, though it's scary. Who knows what is coming next. (((((MTF)))))

Dear Starfish -

quote:

I wonder if her not getting the detail of what you draw, or say for that matter, implies to you that she's maybe therefore not getting the bigger picture as well....and her then withdrawing when corrected and finally stopping, implied that she didn't care to really find out.

Yes - that's right. All the time I feel like she's operating from a whole lot of assumptions that I may or may not agree with, and she doesn't even seem conscious of them. For example, she will happily say "because men need less emotional connection than women" and I say "err, SOME men" because that distinction is really important to me personally (I think my husband possibly needs more connection than me) and generally too (maybe we help to MAKE men that way by treating them that way).

Anyway, I learned with my last T to SAY when something doesn't sit right, and (some of the time at least) I can do that now. But when I do say, she just concedes and moves on ("okay, some men...") as though it doesn't matter, or perhaps she's hurt, or just thinks I'm wrong/dumb, or I don't know what. But what she believes and what I believe and the differences between them do matter to me. And in the course of the average session, there is just too much else going on to stop and deal with every one of these issues and their implications.

So tonight is the termination session. At the moment I'm scared about saying which T I want to transfer to. There are only two possibilities in the practice - the young, inexperienced female T my last T wanted to refer me to and a man. I am scared that when I say I want to see the man she will say that that was what I wanted all along and that I've just been sabotaging this to get to that. And I'm scared that I'll blush/shake when I say it.

Jones

Hi Jones,

I don't have anything to offer you, but I just wanted to wish you luck tonight. I really, really hope that your T is understanding and won't give you any grief for which T you want to transfer to.

Big hugs,
Kashley

(((((Kashley)))) Thank you.

Jones - sending many good thoughts prayers and hugs your way. Hoping the session goes ok tonight. She does sounds very dismissive almost in her comments. I think you are doing the right thing, and you are very wise to approach it how you are, and I think it's really amazing of you to be really seeking out what you need and what really is the right fit, even when it means painful stuff like this. I also can relate to feeling so scared of this kind of stuff, and being scared of breaking down and shaking... Hang in there.

Well, I did it... but it won't be the last session, she wants to see me through the transition and I agreed to that. It felt really different; really connected, like she was listening and hearing and getting a sense of the full picture.

And I feel sad and weird. I feel hurt, sort of like I want to feel hurt on her behalf but like I've hurt myself. I'm not at all sure about how much of my projection is involved here.

Got to go to bed... I'll maybe post more tomorrow.

J

That’s great its sounds like she is being supportive of your decision, which should be mandatory! That must be a little frustrating though that you feel connected and that she’s listening after you’ve already told her you’re terminating. That’s good that you’re aware of the feeling hurt… Feeling hurt could be just the letdown that you went to this T hoping that she could help you but it didn’t work out. I remember how sad I was when I knew I wasn’t going back to a P I saw after only one session… she was horrible and I knew right away that I wasn’t going back but I was still sad and hurt that she couldn’t help me. I hope the remaining sessions go smoothly.
-Mac

Jones

How hard for you....I am glad though that you felt that you had her attention and understanding today though - it's a pity that it has been a little inacessible for you up til now. Maybe that this difficulty might have helped her to look at things from a different angle, if only to see you through the transition period. Thoughts for you Jones, I hope you got some rest,

starfish

Thanks Maclove & Starfish. SF, yes, I think she may be seeing things a bit differently, I'm not sure. It is *so* hard to get a read on it separate to all my feelings. ML, there's definitely some of that hurt you write of - I started out with really high hopes for this.

She was really good. She didn't try to pursue the why at all. She told me she thought it was important to keep working until I could transfer because she felt things were probably pretty wobbly for me the last couple of weeks and I might need the support. I told her I was happy with that and really happy for her to keep coming to the couples sessions until the transfer was over, which I am. In this, for the first time since being with her, I felt contained and supported. She knew I was probably upset and unsettled about this, without my having to produce big shows of emotion to prove it. She had thought about it.

I don't know why, but she asked me to tell her about some of my more traumatic adult experiences - difficult relationships I've had. So I ran through a very painful period I had a few years ago. I don't know why she wants to touch on this now. She did a good job of listening to me but I left feeling exhausted and had trouble sleeping, because all of that was on the surface.

She was very supportive when I said I wanted to work with the male therapist. She said she thought it would be very productive for me to work with the transference, but very uncomfortable too. I said that I was worried about how my husband would respond and she actually was really supportive about that too, saying she thought it was really good for me to say what I want, especially given that he's uncomfortable with it and that makes it more difficult for me. This totally surprised me. I thought she would see it as more of my 'rebellious child' stuff.

I guess I just don't understand. I really don't know now whether I manufactured all those barriers because deep down I wanted something else. If that's true, I'm sort of okay with it, because I was doing my best. But it's such a mystery.

She said one thing that really surprised me. I talked about the young T, the one my last T wanted to refer me to and how I wasn't comfortable with her because she was so young and inexperienced. She looked surprised and said 'J is actually very experienced, but she is young.'

Well, I remember specifically asking my last T about J's experience, and she wouldn't answer me. So I assumed she didn't have much. What a crazy thing. Why on earth would she not have just given me that information?

Ts are fricking weird.

Jones

Oh yeah. The other thing was when I started looking for a 'why', and said I didn't fully understand why it wasn't working for me, she said 'It's like friendships. Some people you want to move closer to and others you would rather keep as acquaintances, you don't feel comfortable sharing more of yourself with them.'

That felt really painful for some reason. Like I was hurting her, but she wasn't hurt, so it almost felt like *I* was being rejected. Or just handed back the rejection in some sneaky jujitsu move. Or that really she was hurt and she wasn't going to show it to me because I did it and it was done.

Jones,

I could be totally off base here (going on three hours sleep), but it almost sounds like you are feeling more comfortable with her now and were able to open up about some difficult things now that you know the relationship is over. Do you think she really was more attentive and caring or did you feel differently because the pressure was off so to speak?

Again, I could be way off base here and I apologize if this comes off as offensive. I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

quote:

just handed back the rejection in some sneaky jujitsu move

Oh and I know this isn't funny, but I loved this line! T's can be so confusing at times.

Dear STRM,

No, that's not offensive at all - it's something I've been wondering too. When I think back, she had never asked me about my past relationships before. I don't think she's even asked me much about my family. I think we may have gone down a wrong track with the notes issue. I told her I was uncomfortable with her reading my last T's notes, without my knowing what was in them. She said she read the summary but not much more, because it felt intrusive to do that. But she never took a history from me either. So three months down the track we still seemed to be on the surface. When she did make connections to my family life, it was like it was from assumption or received knowledge, rather than growing out of the relationship between us.

I think that didn't help.

Hope you got more sleep there, STRM. I could use some of that myself. (((STRM)))

J

Hi Jones... well it seems like I'm here dipping my toe in the forum waters once again. I wanted to stop by and tell you that I'm sorry things didn't work out with this T for you. It seems like you put your full effort into it but that there was little if any attunement between you and that she didn't strive to know you and question you in ways that would encourage you to share your background and history with her.

Do you think it's because she read those notes and then just made certain assumptions about you? Did you ever ask your former T to see your file? I ask because I'll be in somewhat of a same situation if it works out that I have another "transtion" session(s) with my old T and one of my new Ts. I do want to see my file and I know I have a right to see parts of it... I think the Ts own notes are exempt but you can see everything else in it. I would like my Ts to only exchange information while I'm present. I would not want new T to know very much of my history unless I tell him. The thought of him finding out about me from my old T makes me very uncomfortable because I NEED to and WANT to control all access to my information. Why should new T know anything if I'm not sure I trust him yet... or ever will?

It does seem though that your current T seems to have taken a step forward after you have decided it's time to go.

Have you decided on male T? Have you spoken to your dh about this? I know it was something that worried you and I do hope it works out because I know how hard you have been working in therapy and you deserve to find the best T for you without any added stress. I have to say that I admire your commitment to working through issues with your dh. I am not even close to that as I need to work on me first.

Just want you to know I'm thinking of your during this difficult time and wish you all the best.

Hug
TN

jones, going back...hmmm...i know i didn't want to go off on any 'tangents' of she said/she said...y'no, arguing about the past. i knew it was over and i just wanted a few things, one, my complete file, which i got, although she tampered with it's contents, denied the bpd dx, which i obsessed on in several appointments. but, in my state, you have full rights to all your files, t notes, etc. i asked for it all, and got what she fessed up to.

i ramble, two, i wanted her best recommendation as to what type of therapist and therapy i needed for my issues.

three, i wanted her to tell me my dx, which she refused to admit to the things she had repeatedly told me in session.

so, i guess my advise, is to not go off on tangents/emotions, get your complete file, get recommendation on type of therapy and therapist (i did not want names as i knew i would not connect her with anyone in my future as she was not a good t or a good person), and a dx.

think, 'get what YOU need to carry on towards wellness'...not what THEY need. that is not your concern. look at it as purely businesslike as you can.

i left a basketcase, bawling as she was so mean, then, toward the end i asked her if she had anything nice to say to me, and she vaguely told me something nice, which was like turning the knife wedged into my soul, and i lost it. but, other than getting mad at her lies, but somewhat dismissing them....oh, actually, it was all pretty terrible, to be honest, but i survived.

so, have a few key points you want to get out of it, get the 'meat' and let the rest slide, if that makes sense...there is no rehashing personal 'style' type points....and, i try to look at therapy as a flight of stairs, and each t has gotten me up a step or two.

now the above was all t3, t1, we just left the door open with no standing appts (as it was the start of summer and with kids out of school, i needed a break)...so, no closure there, and i think it would have left me unfulfilled had we had an ending...better just let it be and move forward. no hard feelings, in fact, as mad as i was at his ineptness at the end, i do like him, and he did me some good.

good luck with it jones, just have a few points that will help you get, next time, what specifically you need to get.

and NO, i see no reason to connect them, in general. i would want my t to form their own opinion, and you can relate enough to transition that....i think.

just an opinion, jill

Hi TN, hi Jill -

Thank you both very much for your thoughtful thoughts. I'm a bit overwhelmed right now so I will save these to reply to later, but I appreciate them.

xxJones

Dear TN,

It's really, really nice to see you back and posting. We like that toe of yours.

Yes, it's true I felt like the curiosity wasn't there, and I don't know how much of this came from assumptions or misapprehensions on the basis of the transfer information. She said at one point last week 'you're a reflective person, you tend to wander around in your thinking, maybe I've let you do too much wandering'. It's an interesting thing because something about the phrasing - it very closely echoed phrasing my last T used as she wound up, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this is something that appears in the notes or was discussed in a handover meeting.

Transferring is SUCH a tricky thing, I think. It's sort of like one pianist handing over a piece of music halfway through to another pianist. The second pianist hasn't heard the first half, but has to go on instructions like 'I was playing this quite slowly, and I think it could be louder...'.

I guess the question for you is whether you want any notes transferred at all. Your new guy sounds awesome (which delights me!), and it sounds like he is picking up very quickly on the nuances of your situation. You may be better off just relying on the verbal communication between you - but I don't know.

I have to consider this question for myself, too. I can't figure out what went wrong or what the notes had to do with it for me. Maybe it would have been better if she'd read ALL the notes at the beginning; maybe it would have been better if she'd read none of them at all. In between didn't work, but maybe it wasn't going to work anyway. One thing I suspect is that it probably would have done a lot to build our relationship if we had gone through them together. It would have given me the chance to let go of the last T more too.

BUT ultimately it probably doesn't matter much what your strategy is - a good T will be a good T no matter what you do, I think, and sadly the opposite's true too.

I'll post a link to the second opinion I got at the time of the last transfer:
http://www.askdrrobert.dr-robe...om/therapynotes.html

Make of it what you will, in the light of how this has worked out!

As for my T taking a step forward after my decision to leave - yes. Might be because I decided to leave just after she decided to read my notes (I thought - actually, no, I don't want to go there with you). It's hard though. The trauma recap we did on Monday, though it was once-over-lightly, left me with disturbed feelings - I had trouble sleeping afterwards and have ended up feeling upset and exhausted all week. I had forgotten this was what it was like working with the deeper stuff. I don't know if it was a good idea for her to go there now, but I guess we'll see what happens next.

I have told the T I want to transfer to the male T, and she is going to check out his availability before the next session. I flagged it as a possibility with my husband - he said yes, he WAS uncomfortable with it (but not 'no, you can't do it') so we need to have another conversation about it. I mentioned my concern about this to T on Monday and she said 'what, so he can see a female T and you can't see a male T?' This just confuses me. I have a history with outside attachments and he doesn't really. And the Ts have been all about discouraging my outside attachments and encouraging us to be more sensitive to each others needs (cf the 'self-centred' comment). So I don't really see why this is different or what they expect of me.

As for commitment to working out issues with dh - well, yes, we come and go. When he's not in regular therapy himself it becomes very, very problematic between us. But when he goes regularly I know he is committed to getting healthier too, and that helps a lot. Oftentimes the issues are just too explosive for us to go anywhere near, so I hear you on needing to work on you first. Sometimes it's about safety, of whatever kind.

Hug for you.

J

Dear Jill,

That's really interesting - how did you find it going through your complete file? I still don't know if I will have the guts to do this with my new T, who will be T4. Your advice is good about getting what I need and getting out. I feel okay with her now that I've drawn a line, but I don't know how many of these final appointments we will have, and from my experience this week I think I need to be careful about letting too much stuff come up while I'm in this transition period. It's too destabilising when there's no firm relationship there.

I don't know what I want to know from her, though. I sort of feel like I don't want anything, but that's to protect myself I think. I just have no idea what will be helpful going into the new thing. You've got me thinking....

Thanks, Jill. Hope you are hanging in there through the very powerful work you are doing with your DBT gal.

((((Jill))))

J

Hey Jones it sounds like your session went so much better than you expected. I have to say I’m impressed that she is insisting on seeing you through the transition - even if you haven’t developed much of an intimate or trusting relationship with her, it’s good that she’s keeping a kind of continuity so you don’t have to deal with a sudden ending and a sudden new beginning.

Lol it’s almost axiomatic isn’t it - that the moment you decide it’s not working and to finish, suddenly she behaves in a way that you would have hoped for before. STRM suggested that maybe you felt freer knowing that nothing further was at stake, and that may well apply to her (your T I mean) as well - that somehow the pressure was off her and she could be more natural and helpful.

Can’t help but relate this to my current situation, where I went into new T to say ok I’m quitting today and here’s why and suddenly he tells me he will try and do all the things I’ve been openly asking from him since day 1. I wonder if Ts generally have some sort of defensive way of viewing clients until the client shows true self care by terminating and suddenly Ts realize that actually we’re not playing games, are to be trusted and taken seriously... don’t know just random thoughts...

Oh that link you posted - I read your question to Dr Robert and his reply and wow did I think he was being patronizing and paternalistic. Lol I didn’t like his attitude or tone one little bit! I hope what he said didn’t make you feel worse about the whole notes issue.

Will your notes now be transferred to new T? Do you think you might want to read them this time? It’s a tough situation that - I know I would like to read my notes, but I’m not sure I’d want a new T to read them.

I’m glad your H is not being obstructive about your seeing a male T - I reckon it would do more damage to your relationship with him if he’d said ‘no you can’t’ and you’d accepted that. As it is, even though you want to improve your relationship with H, somewhere along the way your needs have to be met, and if seeing a male T is going to do that, so be it. I hope your H can come to appreciate that and won’t feel too threatened by its being a male therapist.

Good luck with the next meeting, hope she has managed to sort out transferring you.

LL

Hi Jones,

I've been following along, reading how things are going for you. I'm sorry about the upset and distress that has developed seeing this T.

As I read, I kept thinking of 'implicit relating' and how significant this unconscious right brain to right brain way of communicating is in how we feel with a T, in how much we feel supported and understood, and how far we seem to be able to move forward.
Implicit relating with a safe and attuned T is especially significant for those of us who have suffered attachment injury and complex trauma and didn't have this type of 'so important safe connection' when we needed it in the past.

Whenever my T wasn't attuned, her stuff was getting in the way and things seemed really superficial and couldn't seem to move deeper, I'd end up incredibly cheesed off....really angry and feeling unheard. Sooner or later, I'd let loose and after the air was cleared, things seemed to be better. I know we need to realize T's are human too, with their own weaknesses, but when this type of thing happens and doesn't easily repair, I believe moving on is in our best interest (and the sooner the better!).

Finding an attuned and skilled T is not that easy

Finding a relatively 'young' T who hasn't done a lot of her own work yet or doesn't have much experience, seems to be pretty darn easy though.

By the way, I think it's a great idea to ask to go through the notes together with the new T. Awesome idea, you would have the chance to clarify anything that didn't read right to you and you would both start off 'on the same page' so to speak. Having as much choice as possible, with nothing hidden smacks of a good relationship with a T to me.

The other option, one that I've experienced, is the new T decided he didn't need the notes at all.....and handed them over to me to dispose of. That felt awesome! I knew he wanted to hear directly from me and wasn't interested in anyone else's take on the situation.

Finally, I guess I wanted to say, "I hear your pain" and I wish you all the best as you move on.

IHTS

Dear LL,

Yeah, her sureness about seeing me through this has helped. Just as well because it's been pretty bleak this last week. As with my last termination there's this really strong sub-conscious drag - very negative thoughts and feelings and it's hard to get up in the morning or keep moving each day. Certainly it's hard to keep in mind any point to continuing therapy.

quote:

I wonder if Ts generally have some sort of defensive way of viewing clients until the client shows true self care by terminating and suddenly Ts realize that actually we’re not playing games, are to be trusted and taken seriously... don’t know just random thoughts...

Yeah, I don't know what it is. My suspicion is that up till that point they may just think they have more room to challenge than they do, and then suddenly they realise they're over the limit and it's lucky if they can turn things around at that point. But like you I experience the challenging as not being trusted, and that's a really big thing for me, I hate it.

Dr Robert - nah, I sort of knew what kind of perspective he'd have on it because I've read his answers before. Leap-of-faith type therapy - strong power differentials and a LOT of trust required.

I don't know about the notes and the new T. I don't even know who it's going to be yet - if the guy can take me, or if it's going to work. I talked to my H again and he said he didn't want to do couples work with a man in the room. So that just leaves me... nowhere, really. Either we do the couples work with his T and me having no counterbalance, or I work with a T I don't want to work with, or we stop couples work, or... I don't know. We can't talk about it because it's too reactive. We do have a couples session tomorrow, though, with my current T and his T in attendance, so I guess we will all talk about it then. What am I going to do, insist in front of my T and my H that I SO don't want to work with her and HAVE to work with a male T EVEN THOUGH it f*s up our couples arrangement and is threatening for my H? I just can't see it, unless the Ts really come to my rescue on this.

Thanks for the thoughts, LL.

Dear IHTS,

Yes, the implicit relating just has not felt good with this T. There just haven't been enough good connected moments to get me through the untuned moments. And I know there have to be quite a lot of untuned moments to begin with - but I dunno, I guess I like quite an interventionist moment-to-moment style. My last T would say 'I don't know how to interpret the look on your face - what is that expression, what does it mean?' and it made me really uncomfortable but it really helped to build our communication, and it made me feel *seen*. This T doesn't ask - doesn't slow things down, doesn't check in on how I feel or check her interpretations. She just gives them, and half the time I rebuff them, and she just steps away from it and we carry on at the surface. Maybe she is trying to give me space but I feel like she doesn't care, isn't interested, or maybe is wary of me.

It probably is a good idea about the notes - I'll see how brave I feel when I actually get a new T!

It's good to see you, IHTS.

J

How are you doing today? I know this is a rough time.....


IHTS

Hi IHTS,

Thanks for asking. I'm okay; my therapy situation feels very strange but I'm trying to just ride with the changes, let go of my impatience, and see where it ends up.

My T has put me on a waitlist for the male T, but he won't be able to take me till he has an opening - maybe in a month or so. My husband has said he does not want to do couples work with a man in the room. He has agreed to discuss this with his T though, so perhaps that might shift. I told my current T this and she said she felt things were going better between her and me, and she would be willing to keep working with me if it turns out I can't work with him. She also said she didn't want to stand in my way at all and that she would keep me on the waitlist with the male T.

It is true that things have improved significantly with her, but I feel very awkward about this, like she is 'on trial'. And I am not persuaded that she is right for me.

She has swung around to really affirming and supporting my feelings. I come out of the sessions feeling much more 'heard', but it also feels quite dangerous - there's a really fine balance in me and in the relationship, and I'm not sure she gets it. I'm concerned she is now over-identifying with my feelings of being unheard and exploited in my relationship. My husband's T leads the couples work, and my T said that in our last session she felt like I was being really pressured into an agreement that wasn't right for me, that I couldn't do, and she felt like she couldn't say anything, had to stay silent. She said 'obviously I was picking up something in the room...' so I guess she sees her experience as projective identification - I on the other hand just suspect she is being triggered. Because I CAN and was saying 'No, it doesn't feel right for me, it feels silly'. Much to my H's chagrin and my H's T's despair - she is keen on this agreement as the way forward.

My T suggested we 'strategize' so that she can support me more in the couples sessions. She doesn't seem to know instinctively how to help me - she said 'because if I speak FOR you, then it's breaking confidentiality...'. I think she is still smarting over when she actually did that. I think she may have got told off about it by my H's T. I think it's not a great sign that she's having trouble accessing other ways to support me. And it feels like there's an undertone here of 'us against them' that is just weird.

I like her and I appreciate that she's working hard now to try to find ways to connect with me and to move forward with stuff. But I think she may be a bit out of her depth and possibly a bit scared of me.

J

Then on the other hand, maybe I am just being impossible to please to keep myself safe. Maybe she was, in her silence, really identifying with the part of me that feels my experience can't be heard, and maybe she needs to go through this swing from one point of view to the other before she fully gets the bind/balance.

Jones what I'm picking up in your posts is a profound ambivalence about this T - and about your own needs and motives.

I've suddenly realized that I haven't a clue about what therapy is all about - having just gone from wanting to quit with new T to deciding he's actually pretty good. But what's interesting to me is that all along i had some kind of sense that he actually would be good for me (but didn't know if that was really him or just me loading stuff I'd read and learned onto him). That sense though has remained pretty constant and I'm now letting myself accept it as accurate.

Which is all to say - no matter what motives you attribute to yourself, or how your T's actions can be interpreted in different ways - if somewhere in you is a fundamental sense that yes she probably can help you, then that's the thing to listen for. On the other hand you've been pretty wary about her right from the start, which I read as that subliminal sense of her being good for you is missing, and maybe that's the thing you need to rely on in deciding what's going on.

I know, at the moment it's all a bit of waiting game and like you're in limbo. So not much you can do one way or the other until you're clearer about things (like, meeting new male T and seeing what he is like). So all I can do is offer you loads of sympathy and support while you're in this limbo state, and hope that very soon you'll be in a better position to make a decision for your healing.

Hugs (((( Jones ))))

LL