Wow, Jones, I'm really hearing about the delicate dance between client and therapist that you just can't rehearse beforehand (hoping its between 2 right brains!).

As I read your post Jones, and yours too, Lamplighter, I thought of my first year with my current P.

I would have given her a failing grade as a shrink at that time. She wasn't being an attuned superhero and I really didn't think she knew what she was doing. Most of the time she said very little and when I did catch her showing her own stuff, I realized she really DOES have her own stuff/weaknesses and it was just hanging out all over! That didn't help my respect and trust in her her build in a hurry...

I didn't believe I would move forward at all.

But the relationship did work itself out over time to something far better than I thought could be.

I'm hoping the same for you Jones, and for you Lamplighter.
Hang in there.

IHTS

Thank you so much LL, IHTS.

Last night I hit a wall, have been crying on and off all day. I just can't do it any more. I have been the focus of intense blame, resentment and/or outright anger consistently in my relationship for three years and more now. I just feel like I can't do it any more. My T is away - it's three weeks till I see her again - I didn't even notice until now. I can't continue with the couples work it's just hurting me. All they want is for me to just give more and more to make things better and I can't. I don't know when it will ever stop and I just want to get away.

Dear Jones

I've read your recent posts several times, because it feels quite complicated for me, so can really imagine how difficult it must be for you to get a grip of.

quote:

I'm really hearing about the delicate dance between client and therapist that you just can't rehearse beforehand

and think that IHTS has it spot on there, the relationships can feel exactly that, especially in your situation, when there is more than one T involved and more than one family member to contend with...and the Ts talk to each other too - gosh, I'm not sure how I'd feel about that.

And maybe you are right, that she is having trouble finding new ways of connecting and relating to what is going on...we always expect our Ts to be one step ahead of the game don't we? But there is something about the constancy of the therapist in the realtionship that for me is paramount to me feeling safe and secure and therefore willing to take risks. Because you fell her hesitancy, I wonderif that is why you feel so unsure?

Jones I am sorry that you are feeling understandably so down... 3 weeks is a very long time to be T-less at any time, but at the moment it is more so for you. It feels as if you are running on empty right now, with the expectation to just keep on giving and doing and it will all come right. It's not as easy as that is it? I wish I could say something that would make this easier, other than I feel your hurt and send you many thoughts - oh and a hug too (((((Jones)))))

starfishy

((((((((((((Jones))))))))))))

I'm sorry, Jones. Like starfish said I've also been reading over your posts and getting the impression that this all feels so complicated...like you are having to twist yourself into a Jones-pretzel to try and please everyone involved...and also like you are carrying a very heavy load. And in this post it sounds like, not surprisingly, you've let it drop out of exhaustion and despair.

And it's no wonder. What you describe sounds very unfair. I am a novice at couples therapy, but after three years, I would think the intense blame, resentment and anger at you would have been squarely addressed. In fact I would think the T's would have tried to address that right away - how can you work anything out together in an environment like that? Which you might as well say, anger, anger, and more anger (blame and resentment being forms of anger anyway). I can't imagine anything good growing in an environment of anger. It is a toxic environment to be sure...like ultraviolet radiation...very wearying and bone-sapping. I can understand why you are so tired.

Gosh, Jones...I just think of the gentle and wise and kind and strong soul that I've come to know here, and I just want to say that you absolutely deserve to be treated with respect and kindness. Even if you are not *always* in a space where you feel gentle, wise, kind, and strong (and what human being could keep that all the time anyway ), you STILL deserve respect and kindness. You both do. It should be the first order even within the couples therapy, even within intense disagreement. I'm not sure how you've been able to bear up under such an angry environment for so long in the first place. You had FAR too much of that kind of hostile environment growing up. You deserve some peace and respite from that, again, no matter WHAT the issues are.

And I would think that one of the other primary principles of couples work is that you BOTH would be expected to give and make things better, not just you. Now I don't know why, but I just got this overwhelming feeling that you're going to respond by backpedaling and saying you exaggerated and defending everyone else. If I'm right about that, then just stop right there, okay? You deserve some peace and healing and joy and comfort, too. Not just everyone else first, and you last, if there's some left over. You are worth FAR, far more than scraps, Jones.

Sending gigantic hugs to you,
SG

Dear Starfishy, Dear Strummergirl, thank you both for your lovely kindness. I appreciate these messages greatly and will respond when I'm a bit more recovered - though I'm doing better today.

love,
Jones

Dear Starryfish,

Thank you for your really kind message. I think a number of things really shorted my circuits, including getting overloaded with the delicacy of that dance, and just not KNOWING who is going to be my therapist, if I am going to have anyone I can rely on. At the moment, as far as therapists go, I don't - so these messages and the friendship that comes with them are really important. I'm sorry they did get a bit tangled and hard to figure out - sorta says where my brain was.

Three weeks... I guess because I thought I was leaving her I didn't take it on board that she was going on holiday, or that it would effect me. In fact I have been wishing for a break for a while. But it just hit me really suddenly that there was *no one there* and that was hard.

SG, what a beautiful message, it helped a lot. Thank you. I should clarify that we hadn't been having couples therapy for three years - just that's how long this really big breach has been between my husband and I.

But I realised yesterday that we are for the first time tackling some of the stuff at the heart of it, with help. These things have been too contentious for us to figure out or even talk about on our own. So I guess I realised it's not surprising it feels overwhelming - we are both really tapped out trying to deal with this. Now it's on the surface, and we are trying to work through it. Somehow it helps to know that this is the context - that what was buried, what we tried to run away from, is now in the open. The anger is not going to go away instantly but now we are facing it head-on.

Ha ha - now somehow I'm feeling this overwhelming urge to start backpedalling and defending everyone else...

I DO want to say that my H has been working hard, gets challenged a lot in the therapy and has changed some significant stuff. I know he's committed to working the other stuff out too. But you're right that I deserve the peace and the healing (I hope!) and that it's been really hard to find. I discovered this weekend, after melting down and doing some destructive stuff that I'm not proud of, that I reeeeeeally badly need some ways to set boundaries that will actually work, that are not destructive, and that will help me get that peace.

Something sobering I realised during/after my meltdown was this: I'm carrying a great deal of anger and resentment myself. I told my husband he HAD to stop being resentful and angry RIGHT NOW.... and then stepped away and had to ask myself if I could do the same thing - if I could actually drop all the things I feel bitter about. It's harder than it sounds.

Great big gigantic hugs back to you, too dear Strums.

J

Hey Jones...I'm so sorry you got short-circuited. Jones. I just wanted to comment, that it's great that your husband is committed to working stuff out, and that some good things have changed. It's also great that you are committed, and have done so much hard work yourself. Between the two of you, with persevering in time you will be able to find eachother...I'm sure of it. In the meantime...be kind to Jones, who deserves to go a little easy on herself, maybe?

Well, I hear you about the "stop being angry right now" bit. I always feel like I'm asking my h "too much." More than maybe I ask myself. But...and here is the part I really struggle with...I really need him to just be the bigger person- some of the time. I'm so tired of always being the bigger person and carrying it all, making it work, letting what I need go, and surviving without his emotional support or understanding of where I am at...he doesn't seem to appreciate the effort it takes me just to get through a day, let alone do other stuff...he seems to carry on as if he has a perfectly healthy wife who has no "issues" and that really hurts, since for me at least, my issues are fairly obvious, day to day. Do you ever feel that way? I really am starting to think it is ok to feel that way. Even though he also has issues. Even though I feel guilty still much of the time for needing "too much" from him...well needing stuff that *I have decided* he doesn't have available to give. Hm, maybe he does. Maybe he really *could* stop being angry...as you so poignantly describe- *even though* I also am dealing with anger...? Maybe. idk...Sometimes, I think my anger is just a reaction to his deep, oft-unexpressed anger and resentment and consequential *use* and neglect of me... and in that case, *if* that's true...(very big if) then my anger would be justified, and he really would be the one who had to let his anger go "first." Please, these are just thoughts...I really don't know, obviously. Just sharing. Sometimes, I get brave, and think- there might even be the potential for a great deal of marital healing inside of that position...the position where he gets to be "the bigger person" and I become "the receiver of a great deal of kind of sacrificial for lack of better word, love" for once. Just a thought. Now...if there is any truth in any of this...the question really seems to be, how to get these dudes on board?

Beebs

Dear Beebs,

Thanks for this, I've been mulling it over and it's a really tricky one.

I watched my parents (mother and stepfather) fighting viciously for years, and each of them always solidly believed that they were the aggrieved party, that the other had to do the work to change things, and there was no hope unless they did. Of course, with both parties believing that their 'loop' didn't change. So I'm really reluctant to get myself into that position, where I depend on my husband changing for my happiness.

But then on the other hand, when I imagine what you are saying - to believe that my husband has it within him to open up and forgive me, to accept me as i am and feel secure - maybe that would actually involve me changing my attitudes too. How would I be if I believed that? Maybe it would involve going to him quietly and openly (rather than resentfully and defensively) with my needs and point of view.... I don't know, I need to keep thinking about this.

Thank you for some really important food for thought.

xxxJones

quote:

maybe that would actually involve me changing my attitudes too. How would I be if I believed that? Maybe it would involve going to him quietly and openly (rather than resentfully and defensively) with my needs and point of view.... I don't know, I need to keep thinking about this.

Ahhh...this is beautifully put... going to him quietly and openly with my needs and point of view...how lovely...Jones you really have a way with words. Now, the hard part for me, about doing this, is that it requires a *great deal* of humilty and a great deal of openess...that I was never taught, was "ok" or "safe"...it's just plain hard! For me, it becomes, down to the brasstacks...about overcoming *myself.* scary.... Will I do it???


Thanks for putting it into words, so amazingly well... love you Jones,

BB

quote:

But it just hit me really suddenly that there was *no one there* and that was hard.

Jones, I know this feeling very well. When my T abandoned me the realization that I was so alone was so terrifying. He had been there for almost 3 years through so many difficult and scary times for me and now it felt as if I was on a ship with no railing on a raging stormy sea. All I could do was throw myself to the deck and pray I would not be tossed overboard into the angry sea and drown.

And this was not the first time I felt like this. I would feel like this off and on throughtout my childhood. Profoundly alone and trying to deal with overwhelming and traumatic emotional turmoil. What happened with T threw me back to that state. And so I can totally get how unbalanced it makes you feel to be without a T there for you, especially if you are working in couples therapy and your dh has his T there with him.

Is there anything we can do to help you get through this break? I hope you will keep posting about how you are doing.

What you are engaged in is very difficult... both couples and individual therapy and then in the midst of this changing Ts. That is a lot to take on and you should be gentle with yourself. I think the hardest thing is to learn patience while in therapy. This has been a hard lesson for me. Be patient with yourself and I hope that you find the T that is right for you very soon.

Hugs
TN

Jones

quote:

I think a number of things really shorted my circuits, including getting overloaded with the delicacy of that dance, and just not KNOWING who is going to be my therapist, if I am going to have anyone I can rely on

Oh gosh, I really get this...I sense a constant tussle between feeling that in the time between sessions, I have nobody I can rely on to share my stuff with; countered with knowing I have a T who is there for me, and that therefore immediately making me feel needy and wanting to push away from her to remain independent. I want that person to rely on that you talk of, but know in my heart that in reality they don't exist, however good the T...I AM on my own, apart from those few hours a week in session. That feeling is very triggering for me, so I can relate to it feeling likewise for you.

Breaks are always hard...in some way they highlight our need for that support, but can challenge our abilty to manage on our own and dent our self confidence as a result. I am sorry that you are in the midst of a break and going through such a difficult time. TN is quite right, try to be patient with yourself... and also as gentle with yourself as you can. I wish you some peace and comfort in amongst all your troubles and send you a hug too,

starryfish

Dear TN, dear Starfishy,

Your words about being patient are really helpful, and thank you both for the hug. I don't feel like I ever found my feet in therapy after my last T left - months and months ago, I don't want to think how many - so I'm frustrated at not making any progress. In fact I feel like I'm better off without therapy right now - I've come to a place where I'm kind of enjoying the break while my T's away, despite the difficulties that have come up in that time.

But there are particular things I want to achieve, still, with the right therapist. Here's hoping the next one is worth it. I am using this time to get very clear about what it is that I do want to achieve, so maybe that will help - though I don't think so with the current T.

I've been getting a bit paranoid about this business of being on the waitlist. Usually they keep the list of therapists on the webpage VERY up-to-date with notes about who is on leave and who is fully booked, or fully booked for weekends/evenings. There's no note on my proposed T's list to say he's fully booked, though I know the notes are up-to-date - my T's current leave is listed. I feel like - are they messing with me? Is he really too full to take me or are they just waiting to see if I will change my mind? What a drag.

By the way, I forgot to say that after arguing about this with my H and freaking out about it a lot, we had a couples session with his T where she sorted it out in 10 minutes. My husband agreed to try out couples co-therapy with his T and the male T, and I agreed that if it didn't work we could just see his T alone (together) if that makes sense. Could we sort that out on our own? Hell no. That makes me wonder why not. I think I got panicky and defensive and into my own anxiety and guilt stuff and so was unavailable to give him the simple reassurances that she did. I don't know if he would have been able to hear them from me, but who knows.

xxJ

Hi Jones...it's so good to hear that got sorted! Don't feel bad about not being able to do it yourself, though...that's what T is for, right? We'll get there too, but in the meantime, I guess we just have to be the students for yet awhile...

I wonder if there is any way you can contact the new T to ask about your question, about the waitlist...is that at all a possibility? oooo, that would just be really scary I'm realizing. I'm just finding myself wishing that you had a way to find out for sure. Nobody likes to have things kept from her "in your own best interests." I'm thinking, Jones like to take care of herself, if at all possible, and not have people go interfering with that piece, too...like, if you're not gonna do it, at least, let me do it, and do it my way, thank you very much, and don't go interfering with me gettingmy needs met, please. That would blow my mind if she really did that. Hm, maybe I would ask, someone...when do you see your old T again? Hm, I think I would ask her. It seems like really important information to have for yourself. If you found out that she did that, then, wouldn't you *know* for sure that leaving her was a good choice? Hm, or would it be that she wants to make sure the door is open for you? I don't know, that one is confusing. I'd better step out now.

Hope you are well, Jones...thinking of you, xo,

Bebe

Dear Beebs -

quote:

like, if you're not gonna do it, at least, let me do it, and do it my way, thank you very much, and don't go interfering with me getting my needs met, please.

Actually this really gives me a giggle, you sound just like me here "If you're not going to look after me, bugger off and let me look after mySELF!" Thank you for understanding!

I still don't know what the answer is with the waitlist thing. She is being VERY supportive now still, I just don't feel too much precision in her reflections, you know? Otherwise I would want to stay with her. Tonight I thought about ringing up the clinic, pretending to be someone else and seeing if I could get an appointment with the guy. But I'm just going to forget it, trust that it's nothing and see what happens....

xxxJ

(((((Jones)))))

It's SO hard to figure this "is this the right T for me" question out. I think it must be one of hardest of life's questions, for some reason, some of which we understand, and others which we do not fully.

It would be cool to see what happened if you made a phonecall like that! I strongly suspect, that you would hear that there is a wait..., but what do I know, that's just a hunch. I think 2 T's who would get into cahoots and collaborate on a deception "for your own good" like that is a little unlikely, but again, what do I know- the ways of T's are mysterious, too, aren't they?
It's so nice to "see" you.

Dear Beebs,

I just checked again on the website - his blurb now says 'Not accepting new clients'. Phew! No sneaky phonecall necessary...

love,
J

yippee!