OW,
In my experience it took me two years of individual therapy and a 15 session group therapy to even understand I was angry. There was another woman in the group who was ALWAYS angry but could never express her obvious pain. I was always hurt BUT eventually saw myself as her reflection, I could never claim my anger even though it seemed obvious to everyone else.

So at the end of group therapy, I disappeared on my indiviudal therapist for around 2-3 years until I had kids and I started having trouble with being angry with them and got scared that I would turn into my dad and become physically abusive. I can still remember that phone call. I told her that I had found my anger, now what was I supposed to do with it?

And now I find myself right in the middle of trying to allow myself to experience my anger at my mother, so I would say that it took therapy for me to feel it.

BUT, and its a big but, that's me and I certainly wouldn't claim that its going to be the same for everyone.

AG

I've been able to be angry for a while, to be honest. I'm sure it didn't make me easy to deal with as a kid - I was angry on behalf of my mom when I was little, and I was angry because there wasn't anything I could do about it.

I generally wasn't able to express it to my dad's face, but I did _break_ a lot of inconsequential things when I was younger. Put my hand through a glass window at 5, pulled a door off its hinges at 10, put a pool cue straight through some drywall, and beat an old all-metal 40's refrigerator into scrap with my hands and feet over the course of about a decade or so - from about 6 to 16, when they bought a new fridge for out in the garage.

I did this stuff when nobody was around, when I was seriously angry and just felt like getting it out - with the exception of the very-young glass-window incident, which I can't actually explain. I'd like to blame poor aim.

I don't yell at folks, or raise my voice pretty much ever, and I do manage to talk about it when folks do things that upset me. So I think I've always been able to be angry. I just...practiced it a lot, growing up. I'm a lot less angry now, in general. Getting out helped.

And I haven't hurt a fridge or broken anything in a very, very long time.

When I think about it, during the worst of the abuse, I was a very angry child. Throwing things, yelling, getting in fights with everyone. But I was moved to a different house, and it seemed my ability to show or feel anger disappeared at about the same time.

quote:

I was angry on behalf of my mom when I was little, and I was angry because there wasn't anything I could do about it.

I hear you there Wynne. My dad was a beligerant drunk and frequently verbally abused my mother and I. I often woke up in the middle of the night to their screaming at each other and my father calling my mother unspeakable names while she cried profusely. For this and many other reasons I was a resentful, bitter, angry child.

I forgot to add my most important point: Therapy has definitely helped me understand my anger and to access it within a safe, grounded platform. Despite my history with anger this has not been an easy process for my T to help me access it because I learned to be so afraid of it. So I guess to answer your question OW, I have always been able to be angry, but now I can do feel angry in a contained and healthy manner. But if you're really not angry, that's ok too. I wonder about your T's question. Does your T think you should be angry or that you are and just dont' know it?? -just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by Wynne:

I generally wasn't able to express it to my dad's face, but I did _break_ a lot of inconsequential things when I was younger.

me too. also got into vandalism, like egging houses and smashing mail boxes with big rocks. yep, think i've had anger my whole life.

my problem is that now, instead of being able to just feel my anger, i get symptoms. i get intense brain fog and anxiety, and depression and just a vague but profound sense of fear, and then i get angry at THAT, instead of the true source. it's truly hellish.

JM, i was just reading an older post by you where you were feeling totally blocked and just god-awful, and you said that you were completely fed-up with feeling like hell and you just wanted to feel the damn feelings already, instead of the evil symptoms. that's exactly how i feel tonight. i've had enough with the intense brain fog, the agitation and the fear. just give me the damn feelings without all the other crap. i can handle it.

how can we get our minds to STOP using symptoms as a distraction (or whatever damn reason they exist) and clear the way for the feelings?

Russ

JM -

I think she thinks I should be angry. We weren't even talking about the physical or sexual abuse at the time. We were talking about something not quite as serious.

I wrote in my journal about a time I was away from home (college) and had to go in the hospital because I got pneumonia. I called "back home" which was my aunt and uncle I lived with for about 6 years before that, to tell them I was in the hospital and to see about the insurance paperwork. I was in the hospital for a week, almost died according to my doctor, and they didn't visit. I was hurt, but never really angry at them that they didn't come.

My T said she was angry for me when she read about it, and was surprised when I didn't seem to be. She asked if I ever asked them why they didn't visit. We also talked the same day about how I don't get angry at my husband when he loses his temper. I don't put up with it and I stand up for myself, and it takes me a while to get over it, but I don't get angry at him even though he has said awful things to me. I really don't believe I get angry, but I do get hurt and disappointed. (Well, except with my kids, but to me that's an entirely different "angry.")

I don't know, maybe she thinks I am angry and I'm just not expressing it.

So the short answer to your question: I don't know for sure which she meant. Maybe I should ask.

Russ -

quote:

i get intense brain fog and anxiety, and depression and just a vague but profound sense of fear

I'm there right now, but no anger, and no end in sight.

OW

quote:

how can we get our minds to STOP using symptoms as a distraction (or whatever damn reason they exist) and clear the way for the feelings?

I'm not sure Russ, but I think it's called ...therapy. I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself.

Oh, I think I remember that phase. I am sorry you are going through that. I go back and forth from preferring feeling to preferring numb. But I absolutley hate the fog and agitation. HATE IT ! HATE IT! HATE IT! Well at least I can account for the fact that it does eventually pass. I don't know about you but sometimes I forget that most of this stuff is temporary.

OW,

From my standpoint I find it fascinating that you don't feel anger especially with what you've survived. But perhaps it is just as simple as you are feeling it with other emotions instead. I hear my T's words echo, "No one can judge or question another persons emtotions." We can't dictate what another person should feel. We feel based on our unique experiences.

I get choked up about your aunt and uncle not visiting you too. If I could, I would turn back time and go visit you (((OW))). But I am sure you don't want to turn back time just to be visited by someone you don't know. But you know what I mean. I hate to think how alone and sad you must have felt. It is important to honor whatever emotions you have.

You've probably heard that even idnetical twins who suffer the exact same trauma at the exact same time will experience it differently. So who's to judge who should feel what?

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
I'm not sure Russ, but I think it's called ...therapy. I'm sorry I just couldn't help myself.

quote:

Oh, I think I remember that phase. I am sorry you are going through that. I go back and forth from preferring feeling to preferring numb. But I absolutley hate the fog and agitation. HATE IT ! HATE IT! HATE IT! Well at least I can account for the fact that it does eventually pass. I don't know about you but sometimes I forget that most of this stuff is temporary.

JM, that was your "I just don't know what to make of this" thread. Your description of how you felt that day is nearly identical to what I've been struggling with since last May, and how I'm feeling right now.

I've had some really good progress in feeling sadness and hurt and crying regularly, but anger is another story. It comes up, and my mind flips on the symptom switch.

quote:

Originally posted by Open Windows:
I was in the hospital for a week, almost died according to my doctor, and they didn't visit.

i think this is incredibly sad. i'm sorry, OW. i bet there's some anger and heart sickness about this in you somewhere.

Russ

I'm good at bein angry but maybe not to be angry at the right person!

Samy

((((Russ)))) I went back and read some of that and I do remember now. I should be more sensitive and quit trying to be funny with you. Those are some extremely low and desparate feelings. Please hang in there and know they are temporary.

Do you have a feeling of these emotions being very young too or just a sense of heaviness? I hated when the emotions would well up and then just vanish like that. I remember feeling exhausted with the strength of a wet noodle.

But this stuck out to me in relations to you too Russ:

quote:

At one point my T asked why I was resisting in being able to say what I needed to say to my mother (you know when you get the urge to cry and tell someone how much they hurt you but since you were never allowed to it just gets stuck in your throat?) I instantly replied, “I probably got a spanking if I protested for my needs as a small child. It would be viewed as a temper tantrum and that was never allowed.” My T just looked at me and slowly nodded her head. So that is the kind of stuff I am processing lately. Very pre-lingual time of my life and even when I could verbalize if I protested, to my mom it mean that she was a bad mother and she couldn’t bear that sort of guilt so she dished it right back onto me instead. She had a sly way of doing that and I don’t think she was aware of the consequences and toll that it took on me.

I know its hard to go there. I am still working on that too , but it has sort of been clouded over by the sexual abuse by my neighbor.

But finally the anger did come out and that was the night I took a bat to my pillow. That was intense, very intense. Then I notice I turned my anger toward my T. Huh, that was interesting to re-read some of that. Once again I am amazed and touched by the warmth of everyone here. Russ, I hope you feel that too. You are an extremely valuable asset to our community. I hope that somehow it helps to know you are not experiencing your pain alone anymore. We hear you even if your parents can't.
JM

JM,

I do wonder how much of my anger is from my pre-lingual stage. My guess is that's when it started since from the moment I was born my father had no real interest in me - despite what I'm sure was an incredible desire on my part to connect with him - and the connection with mom wasn't that great.

Thing is, I know I'm furious with my parents, but there are two things. One is I haven't been able to bring any focus to the anger yet, so it's this kind of vague, unsure, free-floating nastiness desperately looking for a target. The other thing is, as I've said, that my mind is trying to "protect" me from these intense feelings by distracting me with the lovely symptoms.

I fantasize about a day where suddenly the anger comes through like a clear, clean laser beam, with a nice photo of mom and dad attached, and it runs through me like a river, without all the psychic irritants. I then clean it all out of my system like flushing a toilet, and then the healing can truly begin.

I know I know, but I like to dream.

OW, my apologies for hijacking your thread. I think every human being on Earth has a reservoir of anger, including you. You just have to work on tapping into it, and draining it a bit.

Russ

quote:

OW, my apologies for hijacking your thread.

OOOOPS! My apologies too OW. Sorry for that digression into my old post.

No worries... I don't own this post do I?

At least you know I won't get angry at you for it.

LOL! I'd hate to be your first experience of it. What a backlash that would be.
That's cool Ow.

Samy - sometimes it's hard to channel our emotions appropriately, isn't it? I know when I'm stressed or sad my kids, my kids think I'm no fun to be around. Sometimes I wish I could just channel that depression where it belongs and not make other people suffer for it.

JM - lol and thank you, I would have loved to have you visit me. I did have some incredible friends who took turns staying with me until visiting hours were over, and even a few of their parents (who I had met over the years) came to visit.

Russ - thank you. I know there's heart sickness but the anger may be a little harder to tap into. I have really thought about the anger I should be feeling, especially since the talk with my T, and your post regarding your parents. But I can't seem to find it. It's possible I don't want to find it.

OW

OW,

I think I get the T being "angry for you" thing. When I talk about stuff that my dad did, or that happened to me that was badnewsbears, sometimes Tfella would choke up or get upset. I was always slightly puzzled by this - it's just Stuff, y'know? Things. They happen. It's just My Life.

But thinking about that reaction in retrospect has helped me sorta think that maybe I might want to be sad about this stuff at some point. Some point far in the future.

Wynne,

I think I started getting depressed when my son's T started telling me I needed to make some friends, and my T told me that I should be angry and the things that happened to me were significant. I thought it was "just the way it was" until then.

OW

quote:

Is it possible that your anger might just be hidden somewhere in that depression?

HB, I think you are on to something there. When you are severely depressed you really can't feel much of anything. That is a really good point if you don't mind me sticking my nose in real briefly there.
JM

In all my reading I've run across the concept a number of times that depression is anger turned inward.

And I know one of the patterns that my T has pointed out in working with me about anger is that when I get angry I usually turn it on myself, then turn it on him, then direct it to the person who really deserves it.

So yeah, I think you may be on to something. You know, sometimes I hate having all this experience because I know what you're going to have to do to deal with this. I'd give a lot to have a magic wand. But there's no way out but through.

AG

quote:

Originally posted by Attachment Girl:
And I know one of the patterns that my T has pointed out in working with me about anger is that when I get angry I usually turn it on myself, then turn it on him, then direct it to the person who really deserves it.

AG, could you please forward me a truckload of this ability? Thanks.

Russ

Russ,
You don't need a truckload from me. The work you're doing right now is going to get you there. Therapy sometimes is like drilling. There's oil 200 feet down but when we've gone 190 feet we can feel like there's been a huge amount of effort and nothing's happened. But if we just push through those last 10 feet, we hit a gusher.

You're doing two important things. You're learning to let yourself feel your emotions and you're experiencing that you matter with your T. That will allow you to see your own worth and that often "gives you permission" to get angry because you realize that you deserve it. That getting angry about what happened is a reasonable reaction and you mattered.

And true confession, the first time I actually got angry at my T (totally displaced anger, BTW) he spent a 50 minute session dragging it out of me. No one should have to work that hard to get yelled at. I posted about it here: Worrying about the therapist

Don't worry, if I can get there, trust me, anyone can.

AG

Thanks AG,

What a perfect analogy:

quote:

Therapy sometimes is like drilling. There's oil 200 feet down but when we've gone 190 feet we can feel like there's been a huge amount of effort and nothing's happened.

That's precisely what it feels like, and what makes matters worse is the friggin' non-stop anxiety that overlays the whole thing. Not anxiety where I'm worrying a lot, anxiety as in intense fear without an obvious source.

And man, if hitting a gusher of feeling means getting rid of the fear, gimme a fresh drill bit and I'll go until I drop.

Russ

Oh Russ,
I am feeling for you, but believe it or not I still hear a lot of hope and fight in you. I really do. That is a great analogy about the oil drilling. Pretty soon you're going to be sitting pretty on a gusher! Ok, maybe not pretty, probably all oily and stuff, but you'll be grinning big, I bet ya!

JM

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:
Oh Russ,
I am feeling for you, but believe it or not I still hear a lot of hope and fight in you. I really do. That is a great analogy about the oil drilling. Pretty soon you're going to be sitting pretty on a gusher! Ok, maybe not pretty, probably all oily and stuff, but you'll be grinning big, I bet ya!
JM

Thanks, JM. Isn't it bizarre that I'm in a place where I'm desperate for a wellspring of painful feelings to be released in order to stop my symptoms?

On second thought, maybe it's not bizarre at all.

But you're right, once I know I've hit that vein - and I'm guessing there won't be much doubt when I hit it - it will mean the beginning of the end to my symptoms. So yeah, you'll be able to feel my smile from here.

Thanks so much for your (and everyone's) kind words.

quote:

That's precisely what it feels like, and what makes matters worse is the friggin' non-stop anxiety that overlays the whole thing. Not anxiety where I'm worrying a lot, anxiety as in intense fear without an obvious source.

Russ

I'm right there with ya! Sometimes on my way to therapy I feel like I'm going to hyperventilate and pass out right there in the car. And, the confusing thing is that I don't know what I am so anxious about. I really want to go to therapy! Then she asks me what I'm so tense about. (probably because I skulk into the room when she opens the door, land in the chair, and sit like a statue with it's eyes all bulged out!) Me tense? Whatever gave you that idea?

I have no answer because I don't know what it is, but I do know if I could feel it and let it out (like a geyser) then I would have to feel better. I pity my poor T when I finally do blow! I can picture her hanging on to the chair for dear life, her hair flapping in the wind, and everything in the room flying around. Kind of like I just gave out a giant belch!

If it is bizarre Russ, then move over a little bit would ya? Because I need more space on Bizarre Island with you.

PL

quote:

Originally posted by puppy lover:

I can picture her hanging on to the chair for dear life, her hair flapping in the wind, and everything in the room flying around. Kind of like I just gave out a giant belch!

me too. and i picture all the walls and the roof of the building gone, like a hurricane has just come through. there's nothing left in my T's office except for the chairs we're sitting in and the brick fireplace he's got in there. his hair is blown back and his sweater is on backwards. he looks at me and says, "how do you feel now?"

i say, "better."

quote:

if i am really anxious when i arrive i swop seats with him.

HB

I have thought of doing this so many times, but I haven't had the courage. I know she would just say, "If that makes you more comfortable." But then there would be a big discussion about WHY I did it - sheesh! Why does there always have to be a why? Oh yeah, that's what therapy is. Understanding the "why."

PL

quote:

My T never asks why, all he says is that i will need to keep an eye on the time, which i do.

Risking that this thread already has nothing to do with anger anymore, unless OW gets angry at us for hijacking, may I add that the seating arrangement and clock placement are a big deal for me.

My first several visits I coward in a chair in the corner until I moved to a closer proximity to her on the couch where I have continued to sit. She always sits in "her" chair in front of (not behind) her desk. I couldn't imagine sitting there. It is actually a chair that belongs with her desk and not an easy chair so it just wouldn't feel the same. I mean HEY, let's not even THINK of crossing THAT boundary, OK?

She keeps several throw pillows on the couch that get tossed about by each client with a different preference of where they belong. I would often find a clearing of pillows at the end of the couch closest to her and chose to sit there. I remember one day after about a year into my routine, I stopped in front of the couch where all the pillows were pushed to the side closest to her...where I usually sit (3 ooga horn blasts) I just stood there and looked at the pillows not knowing what to do. She somehow immediately picked up on that, apologized, and moved the pillows for me. (What, were you taking a nap before I got here??)

And as for seeing the clock... I used to watch the clock and wind down the session myself and gauge if I had time to bring up something else. In the past year it has felt like "Hey, I don't want to have to worry about this anymore." It became a familiar pattern of feeling like I was responsible for something I shouldn't be (thanks MOM!) So I finally expressed this to my T and she turns the clock on her desk around or blocks it with her body and she told me that IS HER resposniblity to end session not mine. Sometimes I have to remind her to move it, and it feels so much better not having to worry about it. Strange huh?
JM

quote:

she turns the clock on her desk around or blocks it with her body and she told me that IS HER responiblity to end session not mine. Sometimes I have to remind her to move it, and it feels so much better not having to worry about it. Strange huh?

No, not so strange. I haven't decided whether I like seeing the clock or not. But I do look at it and I know I'm thinking, "Oh no, 20 minutes have gone by already!" or "Oh no, I only have 10 more minutes!" I have thought about asking her to turn it around. Maybe I'll try that out and see what happens.

PL

quote:

Risking that this thread already has nothing to do with anger anymore, unless OW gets angry at us for hijacking,

Hey! Where did my anger discussion go? Actually, I'm kind of relieved it has digressed, because I have been avoiding it since HB asked this:

quote:

Is it possible that your anger might just be hidden somewhere in that depression?

Because I really didn't want to have to answer that question, exactly for the reason AG posted:

quote:

So yeah, I think you may be on to something. You know, sometimes I hate having all this experience because I know what you're going to have to do to deal with this. I'd give a lot to have a magic wand. But there's no way out but through.

I have read some of what you all are going through and it doesn't seem appealing to me. (Then again, being stuck where I am isn't too pleasant either).

So, yah, talking about whether or not we watch the clock and where we sit, I can handle that...

My T doesn't have a clock (she uses a watch) and I thank God for that, because I would worry about time the whole session. And, I ALWAYS sit in the chair right next to her desk. She's got one really really far away and I often wonder if people really sit all the way over there.

OW

I can add to the clock discussion. For a number of months I had no idea where his clock was. But it was after about 4 sessions when one day we ran late. It was a session where we were talking about boundaries (I was curious) and on the way out he says to me "by the way, sessions normally run 45-50 minutes. At this point I realized I was there for one HOUR. I thought he was reprimanding me and I thought it was MY responsibility to watch the clock or my watch (what did I know I was so naive) and I felt awful for the rest of the day. I thought I had crossed some major boundary and he was so angry with me. I was in panic all day until I decided to email him with an apology. I got a nice email back telling me it was his responsibility to watch the clock and running over time was his choice and I did not have to worry about that and that I did nothing wrong. Boy was I relieved. We talked about it in my next session and I never worried again about clock/watch watching. I just left it to him and if we run late then it's by his choice.

And I found the clock one day... it was diagonally across from him in a corner of the office. But now it got moved to the little lamp table next to the chair I sit in.

When I first saw him for about 3 sessions I sat on his couch but I switched seats to the french chair across from his chair. He sits in a worn leather swivel chair on rollers. I told him that the couch was too far away from him and that I didn't like the coffee table in between us. He asked if I felt it was a barrier and I said yes. He told me I was very brave to tell him how I felt about it. I've never gone back to the couch.

As for the anger issue... I'm ducking and avoiding THAT one....Anger? who me? I have no anger?

TN

Anger...huh? hmmmm....well...we all have it. Gotta get in touch with it. For better or worse.

I try to remember this quote from, The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran.
“The deeper that sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain. Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?”

Anger burns...and makes us sad. (Perhaps we feel guilty for getting angry?) Which comes first depends on the person. I usually flare up in a blazing inferno and then drop to ashes. And it takes me some time to get my butt out of the ashes.
But if we do not experience sadness how can we experience joy? Some people experience life in shades of grey (ashes? hmmm)...but how do we know where we are, in the greyscale of life, if we do not see the black and white? I think black and white is necessary...but black and white thinking is flawed and can only cause you pain. As an artist...I can honestly say...we need our greys!

I'm sorry...if I'm being too philosophical...it's the way I try to make sense of things.

Keep working on it OW...you'll find your anger.


And...as a side note on the clock topic. I really hate clocks. They make me a bit crazy and yet...at the same time, I am obsessed with them. Thus the avatar I chose. LOL...me being ironic I guess.
My T has 3 clocks in her office and none of them read the same time. What's the point? And yes, I have told her...especially when she is scolding me for being late. (she says I'm being resistant) So, I leave the clock watching to her...but I don't like the way she wraps up our sessions. She just says: "were out of time" and I stop...even mid sentence...get up and leave. It's kinda weird.

quote:

She just says: "were out of time" and I stop...even mid sentence...get up and leave. It's kinda weird.

That _is_ weird. I'd hate that. Do you hate that? I'd hate that. It would, in fact, make me (whisper it) angry. I'm not sure how CalmT generally ends his sessions. I'm his last (late 8:30pm-type) appointment of the day, and for the first session we went a full hour, and second session we went five over or so.

It confuses me. I ..wonder if it's my fault? I wish he'd end on time, fifty minutes (8:20pm) like his policies say. Makes me nervous.

quote:

It confuses me. I ..wonder if it's my fault? I wish he'd end on time, fifty minutes (8:20pm) like his policies say. Makes me nervous.

Do his policies say they are "Strict policies?" I mean typically most sessions run 50 minutes give or take and depending on the T. My T can't stick to 50 minutes if her life depended on it. Is it a policy? I don't know. She has a very relaxed policy, she runs overtime and most of my sessions run an hour anyway so I figure that is her policy. It all balances out in the end.

Your fault??? No. A good reason to bring this up to T? Yes.

Nah, he's not a strict kinda fella, I don't think. Still makes me nervous the last 10 minutes or so. I'm like, Um, should I go? Do I belong here? What's going on? Why are we... bah.

Tfella did it, too, but I kinda just figured the sessions were an hour, regardless. I never saw a document that said how long the sessions were.

Yours goes over, too, aye?

Yep, and since they are usually an hour that means over time is more than an hour.

But I used to get nervous from watching the clock, so we make sure I can't see it. She has said that is HER responsibilty. So I'd do whatever you can do to minnimize that little stressor for yourself.

It's good to know where you stand, but it's good to let him be responsible for what he is responsible for. Those boundaries are already skewed enough from our upbringing.

god is this scary... MY HEART BEATS LIKE HELL so lets take a deep breath and jump ....

.... hello you wonderful people there.

i'm new to this so please forgive if i'm being a complete idiot!!! came to this site a few days ago and was in tears for hours just reading. there is so much love and encouragement on these pages and i was just feeling can i have some please???

just started therapy a few months ago and this ending sessions thing had me bugged too. i mean one minute you're talking and then you don't. i had almost plucked up enough courage to ask stopping a few minutes earlier so i can take my things/thoughts in peace, being quite slow, my t (very strange feeling to use your lingo...) started talking about how i (not) do transitions from 1 state of being/doing to another. which was such a revelation! so now i'm not so bothered anymore - i'm imagining a little crossfade in my head and that helps.

sorry if it's not relevant. you guys have all so much more experience than me. but i better send this off anyway as otherwise i might never.

deep breath....

with love
a tiny little songbird