Hi Jane Doe,

I agree with Monte. It sounds like you're feeling a lot of shame right now. It also sounds like (to me, and pardon me if I'm off here, but I'm Christian and have a strong faith in this) you are not forgiving yourself for your past mistakes. We ALL make mistakes, JD. Every one of us. Some of us make bigger mistakes than others, it's true. Some of them are awful, ugly, horrendous mistakes. But I believe that God forgives us if we truly change our hearts and try our best to 'forsake' our old ways and become 'new' in our way of living and seeing and doing and being. It sounds to me like you are there! You sound like you have made TREMENDOUS progress, and I think you should be congratulating yourself, not berating and beating yourself up and hating yourself. I know self-hate comes easier than self-love, and that it takes a lot of work to overcome. But please work on forgiving yourself and realizing that you are inherently GOOD. God did not create a bad Jane Doe. You are a wonderful, beautiful, good woman and you just need to recognize that within yourself. Please. You deserve to be proud of yourself. I am proud of you, for whatever it's worth!

MTF

Jane doe I'm so sorry you are hitting this wall of self hate - it doesn't seem fair that you are doing so well in getting better and finding ways to actually feel good about things to then be sabotaged by such feelings. Self hate and self loathing are so familiar to me - but I've had them as residents in my head for so long that they no longer overwhelm me. But I do remember what it was like when those feelings first came out and it was hell so I really really feel for you right now.

I totally agree with Monte,

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When I get lost in it I try and focus on what is really loathsome, what I should be feeling disgust for...and it's NOT me. Our self-loathing is so misplaced...its just we are a SAFE target for our anger and loathing, which needs to be directed at something.

I think that self hate is mostly rage that should be directed outwards so maybe it would help you to try and direct those feelings at things/people who you intellectually know probably deserve it? Self loathing a different kettle of fish - but again I agree with More Than Fine that it's likely shame and again maybe it would be helpful for you to work through what is causing you to feel shame with your T? I say all this because it's precisely where I'm at in therapy - knowing I'm going to have to go into how much I loathe and detest myself in order to get to the real reasons at the bottom of it all, and shame is one of the most hideous feelings I have ever experienced.

Sorry don't mean to tell you what to do, just wish there were some way of reaching out to you and vanishing those awful feelings and thoughts making what should be a really positive time for you so awful.

JD- hugs...I feel for you. My P says, change cannot come without first the self-acceptance with all the faults and failings we have. He says it is called "the paradox of change." It is one I really struggled with, until I found my SD who truly accepts me in all my weakness. And he knows it all, and lots of it is NOT pretty. I needed someone else to do that for me first before I could, I think. I do have a bit more self-acceptance than I used to because of him. He lets me be what I am- weak. that is what I am right now, and he is ok with it. Even says, no rush to get stronger! for now, just do this little bit. This little tiny bit of change. (He said "One Our Father prayer a week, and look at a flower for penance!) What do you think? Is he being too easy on me, JD? I think maybe you need someone stronger to be easy on you, too. I hope your T is that for you...

BB
Do you feel accepted by your T, JD? I think this is very important for you, maybe.

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Feeling better and doing life better makes me realize much more deeply how badly I was struggling, how badly my life got “off track” – and how I could end up there again.

{{{{{Janedoe}}}}}

I'm so glad to hear that you are continuing to do better, handling life "slowly but surely". You have taken some tremendous steps toward your own healing, you're working hard to grow and change. You could have just stayed right where you were and not take any steps to get better. Unfortunately a lot of people choose to do just that, or worse, make others responsible for their choices (did you open the link called The Bridge that AG posted in another thread?). But you made choices to get better, and then you acted on those choices, and you are continuing to do that on a daily basis. That is the best anyone can ever do, and I really hope you can see that and give yourself some credit, and some grace!

So I'm sorry to hear that you are judging yourself so harshly that you can't enjoy your own progress. What a terrible bind to be in. It's as if there is something inside you saying, don't enjoy this too much, don't get comfortable, because this isn't real, you don't deserve it, eventually you will revert back to who you "really" are, etc. etc. I have struggled with that kind of self-talk, too, all my life, so I know how much of a pull it can be when things start to get better. Kind of like a swirling vortex of despair, pulling me down, almost seductively, as if to say, "you know you're going to end up here anyway, so why don't you just jump in and get it over with? You know you want to..." Maybe you could even call it a kind of emotional suicide.

I don't know if that fits you, but in case it does, here's where I think it starts, and what has helped me so far. I have been told that I take myself too seriously, that I'm too hard on myself, and that I isolate too much. That combination puts me in a terrible downward spiral where I feel what some people call "terminally unique" about the pain I'm in. What has helped to quiet down the pull of the vortex over the years is hearing how other people have made mistakes, too. Learning that I'm not the only one who struggles, or who has certain kinds of fears or thoughts. (Have you ever heard the song "Not The Only One" by Bonnie Raitt? I was going to put a link here to the song or video but I can't find one. Anyway most of the words to that song fit the feeling so I hope you have heard it or can listen to it).

But that by itself would not have helped. Along with it, I need hope, and what has given me, and continues to give me, hope is finding people who are brave enough and honest enough to talk about it, who also have made some progress in overcoming some of those fears and problems. So over the years, gradually that self-hate has been replaced by gratitude that I've become better about some things, and also some acceptance about other things. Obviously I'm not done by a long shot, but another part of the acceptance is that I probably never will be. All any of us can reasonably expect is some progress. And you're making that in leaps and bounds!

As far as how to make connections with people like that, it varies from person to person, what "works". Because I had a drinking issue at one time, I've learned about other people's struggles through AA, and to a lesser extent through church, and also through therapy and this board. For everyone the specifics will be different, but I think it might be really important for you to find a way to connect with others on a very real level, where the idea that you are so much more awful than anyone else and are somehow not deserving of happiness or peace of mind can really just be smashed all to pieces. Because that really is a hellacious lie, born out of isolation, combined with some faulty messages you learned along the way. Posting here is one way to expose those lies to the light, and get responses that blow them away. Seeing your counselor is another. I would also hope for you that you could find some way to connect with others in your community, in a way that feels right to you.

I hope some of this helps...keep posting, it is good to hear from you. Take care, Janedoe!

SG

ack! I just typed out a longer response and my computer crashed. oh well. I gotta run and will type more later...

wanted to say thanks for the responses and encouragement and feedback. It helped put some things together for me

well my computer totally crashed and is still being over-hauled (thankfully under warranty.) But finally have some time to post and get caught up.

Monte - your reply really made me think. When you wrote about what we have a right too, I wanted to protest back and say "but no! You don't know what I have done, how I have screwed up! I don't have a right to those things." Then I thought wait... that is a judgement, an interpretation I am making... and just like I learned to do in the program I saw it as an interpretation and maybe one that is correct and maybe not. In the end, I made a list of all the stupid things I have done in the past few years that make me feel like I don't have a right to those things. I realized that yeah, I have screwed up but if anyone else I knew had sone the very same things - I would still think they have a right to be known and loved and cared for and wanted and accepted... It has really stuck with me through some hard stuff lately. The truth is that others have done really awful stuff to me. I handled it the best I could and some of the ways I handled it helped me survive it. And now, my head is still stuck in PTSD survival mode and I have done awful things trying to mange it and trying to heal and get better and... The trauma is over. The desperate measures to fix or at least make the pain a little easier are not needed anymore.
It's time to heal. Small steady steps forward...

More Than Fine - Ah, thank you for the reminder of Grace. I am a Christian too, although I am a pretty messed up and messy one (but aren't we all in one way or another?) I am a long ways from forgiving myself - but I am learning to give myself a little grace, at least some of the grace I would give to anyone else in my shoes. I am really grasping on to it actually. There have been some really rough days lately and I have wanted to make everything ok, fix it all again, and somehow hating me fits in. Maybe it's like if I just hate me, then it makes sense and it's all ok and all under control and... it just doesn't really work that way. At all. But accepting grace for myself for what I have done to screw up my own life - whoa... it's just so painful. hard. it means letting go of so much control and walking through so much grief...

Lamplighter - thank you for the feedback! and the 'nudge' to talk to my T. After sorting out some of my thoughts here, I did talk with her about it. She has been pretty amazing about it. She's a little dumbfounded and not sure how to help me see, like really see, on a heart level that I need to let go of hating me... but we have been brainstorming together "small steps" of ways I can be kind to me, take care of me. We have even labeled the "urge to fix" and the "urge to not treat me as well as I would treat someone else" (and yes it has all those word in it) as things to work on. Whenever I get the urge and notice it, I'm supposed to jot ot down and try to do something else. One "small" thing I did was last night when I had the urge to not take care of myself like I would for someone else - I decided instead that for 15 minutes I would be kind to me, and get some rest (I have been sick with mono on stop of everything) and then if I still felt the urge to not rest and "get stuff done" then I would go and do that, only after the 15 minutes. Well, I made it 2 hours that way - 15 minutes at a time, ntil I finally fell asleep. It may sound really simple and silly - but I really do suck at taking care of myself and self care and all that kind of stuff. When the doctor said I had mono and that I needed to spend "the next week on really good self care" it was like a sentence for torture. But last night, I did rest, and took good care of myself, and by the end of the two hours, I WANTED to. The "I hate me" and "I have to go work and fix things" feelings that came up so strongly yesterday, they had all melted away and I fell asleep. And no nightmares on top of it! It was really healing and good to somehow feel the hate for myself and to turn it around... very slowly... step by step...

Blackbird - I love what you shared. You question really made me think too. Do I feel accepted by my T? I think you are right that it is very important for me to feel accepted by her. I think I do. In a very different way - in a way that I never really sought out or looked for. She knows me at my very worst, and she knows the worst of how I have screwed up in life, and there was a time where she couldn;t help me and ended care. Then when I found a new primary T she was willing to do DBT therapy with her as long as I saw the primary T - and the primary T ended up being, well, not a good fit for me right now. When I went off to the program, my therapist (the DBT one) said I would need a new primary T when I got back in order to see her. But while I was at the program, she saw me shift and the whole treatment perspective and plan shifted and she said she was very ok with being the primary T herself (and I didn't have to go out and find another!) I've been back for a month now and just seeing her (and doing some equine therapy too with someone else but it's not very intense or deep work) and so far, thinks with my T have been going great. I think she accepts me in a very real way. She accepts me even when she can't help me. She accepts me enough to tell me when I am screwing up and need to change directions. She accepts me enough to give me freedom and not rush in to control, fix, or take over me (which I felt the other T unintentionally - or maybe intentionally - did.) It's like acceptance with freedom. Sometimes I really wonder why she sees me at all, but she still does and still keeps encouraging me and walking with me and telling me to slow down and take small steps.

Oh, I just realized - My T, she accepts me where I am at right now. While also encouraging me to change and keep moving forward. But she accepts me where I am at now... I missed that. whoa.

Strummergirl - your words really helped! thanks!

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Originally posted by Strummergirl:
(did you open the link called The Bridge that AG posted in another thread?).

I did! Still reading through and processing it - and I loved the Bonnie Raitt song! It reminded me of other songs and I put it and a some others on my MP3 player to help get my head to listen to some different voices than just my own spiral of ick!

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But you made choices to get better, and then you acted on those choices, and you are continuing to do that on a daily basis. That is the best anyone can ever do, and I really hope you can see that and give yourself some credit, and some grace!

I read that and yeah, you are right... but then I think but I should have done this sooner or it's too little too late or... oh here I go again, down into the black hole of ick and hate. ugh.

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I have struggled with that kind of self-talk, too, all my life, so I know how much of a pull it can be when things start to get better. Kind of like a swirling vortex of despair, pulling me down, almost seductively, as if to say, "you know you're going to end up here anyway, so why don't you just jump in and get it over with? You know you want to..." Maybe you could even call it a kind of emotional suicide.

Yeah, it's like the "vortex," the black hole of despair and hate... it is awful and yet I get sucked in and suck in everything around me when I am there...

I'm sorry you know all too well what it is like. And yet, you know what I notice about you? Your words so encourage me - do you ever feel like it's so much easier to see the good and give grace to someone else than it is for yourself? I do. (what's up with that?!)

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What has helped to quiet down the pull of the vortex over the years is hearing how other people have made mistakes, too. Learning that I'm not the only one who struggles, or who has certain kinds of fears or thoughts... But that by itself would not have helped. Along with it, I need hope, and what has given me, and continues to give me, hope is finding people who are brave enough and honest enough to talk about it, who also have made some progress in overcoming some of those fears and problems.

That is one of the best and most healing things about this forum and the program I was at. Sure, all the professionals and skills are really helpful. They have been critical to me changing. It seems just as helpful and as important all the people I connected with at the program and here on this forum. People who struggle, screw up, ask questions, are searching and longing for hope and light and comfort in dark times, people who are hurting too - and surviving, healing, LIVING too... It helps so much. It helps me stay in and give it another try yet again and take the next step and the next step and the next step.

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So over the years, gradually that self-hate has been replaced by gratitude that I've become better about some things, and also some acceptance about other things. Obviously I'm not done by a long shot, but another part of the acceptance is that I probably never will be. All any of us can reasonably expect is some progress.

Profoundly wise words. I hope I can be in that place someday... you help me have hope that maybe I will...

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I would also hope for you that you could find some way to connect with others in your community, in a way that feels right to you.

me too... I need that. I'm starting to take some steps to seek that out more...

thanks