((((SADLY)))))

Would never say "I told you so." You had to ask. You had to know the answer. And, I think his answer was quite beautiful, Sadly. Are you going back?

(((Sadly))) I can see how hard this is for you and I don't think there is anything to say "I told you so about". From reading the transcript you gave us my understanding was that sP though it was fine that you asked but he is holding a boundary. You shouldn't feel bad about asking afterall if you din't you wouldn't know where his boundary was.

Strangely I don't feel really mad at him (well my two year old me does) but my adult me is so aware of how careful and considerate he is. His voice the entire session was like the gentlest voice in the world, so kind and so gentle. I was so frightened and so tangled up and he just kept trying to reach me verbally, just trying to find a little door in and I could hear that and appreciate that even though I was so horrible tangled up. So I guess, sigh, I do feel held, in the emotional sense and I do feel cared for and I do still like him and respect him, I just hurt like hell too. And my two year old wants to stamp and have a total toddler tantrum on the floor. I did not like it that he did not stop me banging my head on the wall. He just watched that and I have a very sore head and I know it was MY fault that I banged my head so much, but it is such a knee jerk reaction when I get that upset, .....
I think he should have asked me to move away from the wall more... at least.

Sadly, I am so proud of you for asking and for sitting (albeit shaking and crying and such) for the conversation that followed.

I think BG put it really well, and I think you opened the door to continued conversation about the understanding of this whole piece.

((((((Sadly)))))

thanks R@G, and BG too, the feeling at the centre of the hurt right now is
abandonment when in pain
that `i didn't and don't matter
and no one came
no one was there
no one held me
I was just left to hurt

Sadly,

I would never say "I told you so". I think it is great that you asked. It sounds like to me that he is still unsure of the idea and hasn't really made a firm decision. I could be wrong, but that is what it sounded like to me.

I understand what you describe in your last post. You are very experienced in sitting alone with your pain. What you describe needing is someone (who should have been there at the time) to hold and comfort you and be with you in the pain of the after effects of what happened. I'm sorry that you felt alone then and in session. Hopefully the two of you can work out a way that would help you feel that he is with you even if he isn't holding you.

(((hugs)))

((((((Sadly)))))))

No "I told you so" here either, Sadly. I agree with STRM that I felt like sweetP wasn't necessarily clear on having an answer yet, but I guess that means at least for now, it's no. I know how hard it is to want to be held and feel like you can't have it. I think you are so brave and am so proud of you for asking in the face of that fear. And I'm glad he's able to hold you emotionally even while his current boundaries prevents him from doing it physically. I'm sorry you're in so much pain! I'm sure sweetP wishes he could just take it away. I do too!!!

Oh Yakusoku, you are so sweet - I know you are right,

quote:

. I'm sorry you're in so much pain! I'm sure sweetP wishes he could just take it away. I do too!!!

He really feels my pain. I hear that in his voice and in his whole kind and caring manner and soft caring voice.
I am amazed I asked him, He was actually trying to tell me that I was too tired and too worn out to force my little me to ask her BIG QUESTION - (I made three attempts to ask him in the first hour and a half and only got more upset each time) but I also did not want to go home and face another week without knowing.
STRM:

quote:

It sounds like to me that he is still unsure of the idea and hasn't really made a firm decision. I could be wrong, but that is what it sounded like to me.

Oh, gosh that has got my hopes up. I think I am aware that he is struggling himself, he admitted once that he felt it would be so natural to put his arm around me to comfort me or to take my hand.
He also said a few sessions ago when I said that you would not leave an animal in such pain, you would shoot it, (I had been crying and hurting terrible in the session) and he said "Or you would hold it."

So yes, he is 'conflicted" and he has not been able to make his mind up.

I guess I was pushing him on Friday, and he was actually trying to give me hints that he is not ready for this kind of debate/discussion.

I think I feel sorry for him. If he told me all this I would probably say, I am fine with you not holding me, I hate the idea of the dilemma I am putting you through.

and thank you all of you for the hugs. It has been a very intense few days, and my heart area has felt physically ripped open ( I did not know it could do that until it hurt like that when the ex C terminated with me - and now it is happening again. )

thanks for your support all of you.

Aw Sadly, I am sorry, I've been able to read through some of this and I feel for you. fwiw, I think he has handled everything in the only way he could have, and that it's difficult for him, too. I think his unsureness has more to do with the complexity of your situation, than on him not really knowing what to do or possibly changing his mind, from what I've read here. I do not agree, that he should have stopped you from the head banging. that would have been quite possibly reinforcing the behavior, as we do with small children when we try to "comfort" them too much when they are hurt. From first hand experience, they can take that and turn it very much into "I like getting hurt- it gets me attention and firm care." I tend to think it is much more loving- though much more difficult for the caregiver in that situation- to allow what is happening to happen without anger, but stand by in case the behavior turns too destructive- of course. I think your T is trying to help you grow through those phases, so is very proud of you that you stopped banging your head, and as it is painful for a child, and a parent to watch the growth in such a situation- it will be painful for you, and your sweetP as well, to accept the growth, that must come from you- the part of it that he cannot do for you- but can do with you, beside you as a companion. You could not do it without him. I am really feeling a lot of respect for the way your T is operating- again, take that for what it is worth. It feels sucky, but I really think he is wise. Trust him...and go ahead, ask and aks and cry and that is the work. Just know that he cares. That is really clear. That's all I can say...hope it helps a little bit.

hug,

BB

quote:

I am really feeling a lot of respect for the way your T is operating- ... but I really think he is wise. Trust him...and go ahead, ask and aks and cry and that is the work. Just know that he cares. That is really clear.

Yes, I respect him too, and your reply helps BB, thank you. And yes, I should stop the head banging myself, like I could move myself AWAY from the wall for starters!

one thing he said to me last session was:

quote:

"what you bring, is actually profound hurt and the stuff of survival and what you've had to do to survive, there isn't anything in that that warrants ridicule or blame or mocking and it is about the most profound stuff we have to face as human beings, what you have to do to survive and what happens when you don't get protected and all those kinds of things,
because those are real things that have happened to you, they are not theoretical risks. there are so many reasons – not theoretical, real risks that happened to you,that have threatened your survival and identity. Real stuff. What I am saying is how you feel is actually in proportion to the kind of stuff you have had to contend with from infancy onwards – it has not been easy. the world has let you down pretty badly, hasn't it ...
So your wariness and your suspicion is well founded and sometimes you look at me like I am about to be really horrible and I am going to try and not take that as a personal thing about me. And I think that at the same time as that is happening, there is something about how pain gets managed as well because it feels like one of the things that people around you have done, is that they have avoided their pain by dismissing yours, so “you can't be hurt because if you are hurt that makes me upset and I don't want that so take away your pain please” and you're fearful about whether your hurt might be too much for people in the same way as you worry that your anger might be too much and drive them off, make them retaliate which they have done."

I mean this is really good stuff he is saying and applies to most of us I suspect.

[still feel a bit unsure of posting what he says to me in a session, maybe I shall ask him if it is okay - explaining that I make sure he is anonymous and so am I)

Wow- but that is powerful, Sadly, and I think it is really generous of you to share it with us...really generous. Of course you can ask him, of course. I like him. I really like his thoughts. They are good, healing thoughts. I'm very glad you have him...it's going to take time. Just go easy. Go gently. Slow and steady, wins the race..

hugs,

BB

I don't think there is anything wrong with posting the things sweetP is saying to you. It's not like you are disclosing anything personal about him.

And sharing his words is blessing me, at least. The things he said really struck a chord with me too. I keep trying to minimize the things that happened to me...the lack of a protector. I feel like I am pathetic to care about them, because I am BIG now and should be able to take care of myself, but I was little then...and they were BIGGER than me, and I was defenseless and without a protector or a teacher, a guide...all the things parents are supposed to be. And if I look at my daughter and imagine being that way with her, I cannot stop crying. And I kind of skipped dealing with the pain that little girl was feeling, so now I'm feeling it as an adult and it's very confusing. And the fact that sweetP is reassuring you about those feelings and that they are in proportion and that he can receive them without being injured by them...that really is a form of holding you in all your hurt!

YEs, Yaku - I posted them cos I thought his words might help others too. So very glad that they resonated with you as well.

BB - I like him too. I too am glad I have him. I feel he IS holding me, by the way he is to me.
Monte:

quote:

With your background of therapeutic abuse and the fact that he is a male, he must have to tread so very carefully within the area of physical contact. But it is so clear his first concern is for your welfare, not his own comfort.

yes, i think he was and is horrified by what the last male T did to me, and he knows the DETAILS (vomit) and so he is really discerning here what is best ... and I am reassured by that considered careful response.

I am trusting him.
I sent him a letter yesterday, that I hope he gets tomorrow, (I have never sent him a letter before) and in it I outline what I mean by holding as my friends think he might be thinking I mean something else. By 'holding' I mean sitting side by side, with his left arm over my shoulders and me leaning my right side against him. It is the safest loveliest sense of being safe. Fortunately I can ask kindMaffa (my EMDR T) for some holding on Tuesday evening but she feels like a younger sister to me, a very kind one at that, so it doesn't quite have the resonance that a daddy figure would have, but it is certainly better than nothing.

Sadly,

I know how it can feel to be rejected on a request that is so dear to your heart, but I do think he has your best interest at heart considering your history with last therapist.

Yes, because my last male therapist was a compulsive sex addict, I am now untouchable by any male therapist.

Aw Sadly. what that creepoid did was not your fault. But you were left with the results- that's what makes him such an incredible creepoid. What he did left you with a deep pain, that new sweetP has to be very careful with. It wouldn't be respectful of your pain, if he were to just comply with your request for touch without a lot of his own turmoil and fear and ultimately, having to make the decision in your own best interests but that feels right for him, as your psychologist, too. It's relaly complicated. Your situation is complex. You are not untouchable...just, very, very tender, very hurt. And sweetP knows this. If he didn't care about your pain, than it would feel so good to him, to just give you what you need, without a lot of thought. And that would meet his needs...what he is weighing, is whether that would truly meet yours, or not. And he will have to say no, for now. Trust him. It's complex. But it doesn't make you untouchable. Not at all.

BB

quote:

Originally posted by Sadly:
Yes, because my last male therapist was a compulsive sex addict, I am now untouchable by any male therapist.

It's sad that he has robbed you of this healing opportunity with future male therapists. Makes me sick.

Thaks Jane for that long post that was very helpful.
Yes, I have asked him to sit closer and yes, he handed me my blanket last session saying he thought it might help.

quote:

He may be a T who just doesn't like touching, is working through thinking about it, is working through his trianing that tells him to be extra careful about touch with SA clients, and also thinking though how touch could help heal.

Nothing is ever written in stone. It doesn't sound like he has made any decision, and certainly a final one that he will never ever touch you.

I think you have summed it up very well. Your comments have been and are very helpful to me, thank you.

It has been a hard week but I am doing lots of pleasurable things, which helps.

Last night I dreamt I was on a coach from the south, coming home. It was night time. I talked to the man who was a conductor, he told me about his life and his job and his worries, so I was being kind and listening to him. Eventually I fell asleep and I woke about 2am to find him on top of me - ripping off my shirt and his hand on my right breast, and I freeze. No one else is on the coach now, they have all got off whilst I was sleeping. I am so frightened again. His hand is now working downwards and pulling off my trousers and he is so big and I am so angry. "No, this is NOT going to happen AGAIN!" and so I wait for some tilt in his weight and I gather up all my strength and all my fury and try to knee him in the balls BUT I CAN"T MOVE _ MY BODY HAS FROZEN AGAIN.
NO NO NO NO NO NO
I yell "NOOOOOOOOO" and make my body respond, knee him and he rolls over and I run for the coach driver and say "that man is sexually assaulting me!" and I am almost naked and sobbing. And you know what? I feel GUILTY! Wrong! Like: sorry for this man as I am now wrecking his life and he will lose his job and oh god, he has been having a hard time and here am I making it worse... by telling on him.
end of dream.

sweetP is so kind. I must hang on and remember that. He is so kind. He is really trying to help me and he won't hurt me intentionally. He is struggling too to work out what is in my best interests here too. He is so good and kind and genuinely trying to do what is best for me.

I asked him to phone me back today and spoke to me and said he had got my letter yesterday morning and he read it in the afternoon and that it was okay to say those things and no, I am not too much for him. "If someone was writing letters EVERY day, then it would not be possible for me to read them, but I am not talking about you", (but of course he WAS telling me that inadvertently). I feel quite upset about that, I feel told off which is unfortunate. I very much heard "you are not too much but if you start writing letters every day I will not be able to read them as I don't have time."
Ow. I have only written ONE letter and that was after the awful session on Friday. Did he see that as a boundary invasion, or boundary pushing?

I have never written him a letter before, and so that felt like being told off for something that really has not happened.
He so grown up, it is hard. He says things in such grown up ways, and actually I am feeling quite little when I talk to him and of course as soon as he said, - "If someone wrote letters every day ..." I just gasped and said " I wouldn't but I wouldn't! I wouldn't!" like I was being accused of something I am not doing and I then sort of squealed quietly to myself for a while, it hurt so much.
Everything the small child needs from him IS too much: holding, writing down how she feels and giving it to him, writing it down and sending it through the post. He is making it clear that is not what he is able to do.
So she feels like retreating back into the hidden places again.
I keep feeling like I don't want to have anything to do with him.

quote:

I feel quite upset about that, I feel told off which is unfortunate. I very much heard "you are not too much but if you start writing letters every day I will not be able to read them as I don't have time."

Oh, Sadly, I can really feel your pain as I read this. As I read Blanket Girl's response, the adult in me agrees with what she wrote about your T just letting you know what his personal boundaries are, and that its really just information about him much more than it is about you. It wasn't meant to be personal. He wasn't singling you out, he was likely just saying what he would say to every client concerning what his limitations are. That being said, I know I would also have likely taken it badly if it were me in your shoes. I tend to be very good at analyzing and twisting every word my T says into the worst of possibilities. She is right that I get myself into lots of bad places, and for nothing, when I make assumptions based upon my deep insecurities.

May I cautiously suggest that perhaps part of why what he said hurts is because even though you have only written him one letter, if you are at all like me, then the desire to write much more often is there. So even though you haven't acted on that desire, to sort of be "warned" not to tends to hurt, and I, for one, tend to feel shame over having any needs or wants which my T will not (or cannot) meet.

I hope I didn't word that offensively. I don't have time to edit, I have to run. Sorry. Sending hugs to you.

I know how your first instinct felt, Sadly, that he was warning you not to start writing everyday and that you are too much for him but that is not true. He is trying to set his boundary as BG explained above and this is for your safety and protection. If he didn't set boundaries I would then worry because it would reflect badly on his ethics and professionalism. I know they are hard to hear. When my T told me he would not accept food gifts from me I was very hurt. And I was in a vulnerable place, especially in the beginning of our relationship. I felt shamed and disliked. I felt that he didn't understand and was cruel to tell me this. But after time has passed I do understand how careful he is being with me so as not to repeat what happened with my oldT and that horrible trauma. He wants me to feel safe with him and when he holds that boundary (we have discussed it again) he DOES make me feel safe and cared for. It would be so much easier for him to say... oh sure bring me what makes you happy (plus he'd get some good food to eat LOL).

We also had the email conversation. He encourages me to email when I need support or connection but he did say that we'd have to discuss it further if I began to email twice per day. I did not take it personally as I only email once every two weeks or so, but even if I did email twice a day he'd talk to me about it because it would mean that something was not working within our therapy not that I was BAD and he hated me for doing that. Aside from that... they need to know what and how much they can reasonably handle without either burning out or disappointing the patient with lack of response to the email or letter. My T carries a big client load and he knows his limitations.......and again that keeps me safe.

So try, Sadly, to see this as him caring for you. He seems to be doing so well with you and I see his care and gentleness in all areas. You have a good guy so try to take in that he does what he does with your best interests at heart. I know this is hard. I have to keep reminding myself of the same things. But ultimately I think we have to trust that what they do is for the good of the dyad.

Hang in there.

TN

It would feel even worse trying to get through this without your help on this forum. thank you.
I have just been trying to calm down really, and my husband and my EMDR T (Maffa) and my first T ALL agree that I MUST stick with him, that he is really good and I must not walk away. They are all rooting for him whilst they were all telling me leave the ex C. So I have to listen really. And in my heart, I know he is good, that is why I am hating him so much at the moment! He is way ahead of me and knows exactly how to handle me and I am not only out of my depth, I have gone OVER the waterfall and am being churned around in the whirlpool and I have no idea what to do or how to sort this emotional maelstrom out. Sigh.

BG:

quote:

Your T. obviously cares very much for you...this is why he's being so careful and letting you see the boundaries. He's protecting you, Sadly. Don't retreat from this healthy relationship. You need this healthy relationship to heal. Let yourself trust that you CAN trust.

This is what is un nerving me so much. I can HEAR and I can TELL how much he cares. He really does. And he stays rock solid in that. I am unconsciously trying to push him every way I know how now, I think. And he just stays solid.

I have been the worst me, all shaking and pre verbal

• I have sobbed incoherently and shaken with fear
  
• I have raged at him and got really very angry with him
  
• I have said twice now that I am leaving, and meant it.
  
• I have asked him to hold me and got well and truly mad that he won't.
  
• I have threatened to pee on the carpet, collapse on the stairs, (well I fear I might do both these things whilst frighteded) LOL
  
• I have worn him out at least three times, where physically he looks like he is about to drop
  

and what do we have left? Maybe very soon this toddler will learn to just let go and trust and stop this huge battle of trying to work out if she is safe or not and when he is going to leave and when he is going to start hurting her and start to see and know that:

• sweetP truly cares
  
• sweetP has my best interests at heart and will not do what I want just cos I want it, when he thinks it is not in my best interests
  
• and I don't have to keep unconsciously testing him (and it IS unconscious, there is not planning here, it just HAPPENS)
  
• and he is capable and experienced and will help me through this not reject me.
  

that is quite a lot to take on board.

MH:

quote:

May I cautiously suggest that perhaps part of why what he said hurts is because even though you have only written him one letter, if you are at all like me, then the desire to write much more often is there.

I think you are right, I might have made a habit of it and he was nipping in the bud,right now, before I get ideas...

TN:

quote:

He encourages me to email when I need support or connection but he did say that we'd have to discuss it further if I began to email twice per day.

You are so lucky that you have email support - my P seems so overworked, I think he might cry if I sent him emails. I know he has email because my EMDR T emails him.

quote:

So try, Sadly, to see this as him caring for you. He seems to be doing so well with you and I see his care and gentleness in all areas. You have a good guy so try to take in that he does what he does with your best interests at heart. I know this is hard. I have to keep reminding myself of the same things. But ultimately I think we have to trust that what they do is for the good of the dyad.

Wise words, TN - and BG says the same.

So I MUST hang on in there. I see him tomorrow at 3.30pm. Then on Monday.

THEN I go off to India for three weeks net Tuesday.

arghhhhh

I will miss him sooooooooooo much. I am hoping I can look on this Forum whilst in India.

I have never felt such a tangle of feelings around a t and been so honest about it. He said on Friday:

quote:

you have gone a long way towards letting me know about things, that you have found extremely difficult to talk about and you have allowed yourself to be very vulnerable and very exposed and that feeling that it is going to cost you , that feeling that somebody is going to make a judgement and pointing a finger and it is going to happen because it has in the past, and it almost becomes a crisis, and I know that you have always said, there is a bit of you that says, don't say this, don't show that, and you have done it, don't let people know how you feel and you have put yourself – you are right out on the edge of some really dangerous and exposed place waiting for the bad things to happen. And I suppose what we have to try and do is get through that, without it happening the way it has happened before and the way it feels it's going to happen and try and make it happen in some different way.

He knows that I feel wide open, like I have no skin, he knows so much and he is seeing so much and I am so vulnerable right now.

But he is good, he is doing well, he is up to this. I must just keep going.

I see him today, this afternoon. I am already feeling frightened just thinking of it. I don't know how I shall get myself there.

I will see him on Monday too, then I go away to India for three weeks.

The thought of being away from him for so long is horrible. Even though it is awful in that room at the moment - I do know he cares and I do gain a lot of sustenance from knowing that and being in that even if I am shaking and crying at the same time.

((((Sadly)))) I hope and pray it goes well today ~ jd

((((Sadly))))

I hope you are able to really take in his comfort today. I know what it is like to be so anxious and to feel out of place even as you meet with someone who makes you feel safe.

I do not feel okay about posting here at the moment so deleted my post. Thank you though to you Yaku for replying. I appreciated it.

I'm glad sweetP is making you feel held in these other ways. That is what my T does too, although I haven't had the courage to ask him to even sit next to me. I know the feeling you're describing of feeling so connected, yet aching for that physical piece at the same time.

I am really sad right now, grief I suppose. I know this is not interesting - but it is just how it is.

((((sadly))))
grief is tough, hang in there sweetie and know you don't have to get through it all alone. regardless if you can share or not, we are with you. ~jd

((((((Sadly)))))) Thinking about you...and trying to have courage like you. You are amazing.

(((Sadly))) I'm sorry it's so rough. I hope that you are able to feel the caring of others and your sweetP while you go through these feelings.

Still thinking of you. I've been imagining all evening what it would be like to be held by someone I could trust, held and count on it not to turn into something violating. I want so badly to just be wrapped up in someone else's care. I'm feeling really connected to your sense of mourning right now. I hope you're doing OK. (((((hugs)))))